Author Topic: you pick  (Read 16080 times)

NeoSeminole

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Re: you pick
« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2006, 01:38:41 AM »
By the way, I'm waiting for your proof that matter came from photons. ;D

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Re: you pick
« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2006, 05:47:25 AM »
watch the video i already posted it, gary schoeder a nuclear physicist from mit says it right into the camera and uses it as an argument. other then that the first three minutes indicate it but it is impossible to serperate bar. from photons so i dont have enough of an uderstanding of physics to understand how to accomplish that or to tell you how they relate. watch the video if that doesn't satisfy you then i will do some searching for you but i mean unless he's a gross liar and his book is based on a lie then i dont know what to say.

anyway if you got any new points for evolution or against creation ill hear them but it seems like it's turning into a personal battle and we are just re-hashing the same ideas etc..

i'll leave with this though something in this universe is infinite because nothing from something is impossible but it appears that our universe is not eternal. anyway im going to read the books that converted antony flew the worlds leading atheist and i'll post there thoughts for you to argue if you want, i rather enjoy the argument. so if you got some new points we can continue but i could just read talkorigins to get your arguments, unless you have something else. so i'll post some of the new thoughts once i finish the books, later.

NeoSeminole

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Re: you pick
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2006, 08:29:02 AM »
I believe Dr. Gary Schroeder is wrong. I searched online to find another source in order to verify his claim.  My search yielded no results. From what I gathered, matter and energy were interchangable during the earliest moments after the Big Bang. Colliding photons formed particle-pairs, and matter/anti-matter annihilation created photons. 10-12 sec. after the Big Bang, quarks and electrons were able to exist separate from photons. It is possible that Dr. Schroeder is telling a half-truth; that is to say, he is correct in that photons did create matter after the Big Bang. However, he neglects to mention that matter and energy were interchangable.

http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/Cosmos/InTheBeginning.html

http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/early.html

Ever since you joined this discussion, I have defended evolution from your ignorant comments. I have refuted claim after claim. You said evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodyanics. I demonstrated why it doesn't. You claimed there are no transitional fossils. I provided several examples. You asked me to watch videos of Kent Hovind. I exposed his lies and misconceptions. You thought the Big Bang initially produced only light beams. I proved you wrong. It appears that my efforts were successful. In fact, you stopped using the same arguments after a while. I never intended to 'preach' evolution or try to disprove god(s). My purpose is merely to defend evolution, hence why I avoid making threads. I assure you that I'm not taking anything personal. On the contrary, it feels good to educate others.

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Re: you pick
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2006, 09:16:46 AM »
oh brother, defend it all you want. there are numerous evolutionists that now renounce it and your skeptic magazine is one of them. read some books on the subject from the other side of the pond bro. fossils are not proof of transition or a extinct species, no one can say for sure. the platupus shows reptile, mammalian, bird, anphibian etc features i guess they evolved from everything. listen i made the claim that photons were the first thing based on gary schoeders book. your link said nothing about matter and energy and if you could pry apart the physics of it im sure you'd arrive at the conclusion gary schoeder made. your arguments are copy and pasted from talkorigins and i dont wish to argue with them.

abiogenesis has no proof but you say it happened. you claim one or two fossils prove bannanas and puppies came from the same thing. you claim mutations add material, when all they do is scramble material which usually, more then not, as seen in many studies with fruit flys etc that they become weaker as a whole, not better( lee m spetner here also).

do you beleive that this world is solely material, because if you do i feel sorry for you.

yes you've stopped me from beleiving in something other then our brains perceptions ;)

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Re: you pick
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2006, 09:28:58 AM »
http://www.trueorigin.org/
refutes your posts, sme before talk origins some after

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Re: you pick
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2006, 09:40:55 AM »
An evaluation of DNA/RNA mutations indicates that they cannot provide significant new levels of information.  Instead, mutations will produce degradation of the information in the genome.  This is the opposite of the predictions of the neoDarwinian origins model.  Such genome degradation is counteracted by natural selection that helps maintain the status quo.  Degradation results for many reasons, two of which are reviewed here.  1) there is a tendency for mutations to produce a highly disproportionate number of certain nucleotide bases such as thymine and 2) many mutations occur in only a relatively few places within the gene called “hot spots,” and rarely occur in others, known as “cold spots.” An intensive review of the literature fails to reveal a single clear example of a beneficial information-gaining mutation.  Conversely, thousands of deleterious mutations exist, supporting the hypothesis that very few mutations are beneficial.  These findings support the creation origins model.

http://www.trueorigin.org/spetner1.asp

so spetner stuff. ignorant, i think you are scientifically ignorant in your complete materialist model of the world when things like telepathy, remote viewing, and xenoglossy have been seen.



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Re: you pick
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2006, 09:52:07 AM »
The first surprising thing Denton points out is that there has always been a dissident faction of highly distinguished scientists, of impeccable credentials and no religious motivations, who have declined to concede that evolution has been proved. This is inconvenient for evolutionists who would like to dismiss their opponents as Bible-thumping hicks and claim that questioning evolution is tantamount to questioning the value or validity of science. He also points out biologists like Richard Owen, who were prepared to allow that evolution had taken place but thought that other causes were involved in bringing about the origin of species.

The first big problem with evolution is that the fossil record increasingly does not, honestly viewed, support it, a fact that famous Prof. Steven Jay Gould of Harvard has described as "the trade secret of paleontology." Evolutionary theory claims that there once existed a whole series of successive forms of the various organisms alive today. These supposedly changed by infinitesimal amounts with each generation as they evolved into the present varieties, so the fossil record should show these gradual changes. But it doesn’t. Instead, it shows the sudden emergence of new species out of nowhere, fully complete with all their characteristics and not changing over time. It is almost entirely devoid of forms that can plausibly be identified as intermediates between older and newer ones. This is popularly known as the "missing link" problem, and it is massively systematic across different species and time periods. Worse, this problem is getting worse, not better, as more fossils are discovered, as the new fossils just resemble those already found and don’t fill in the gaps. In Darwin's day, it was easy to claim that the fossils were there but had not been discovered. Problem is, we now have hundreds of thousands of well-catalogued fossils, from all continents and geologic eras, and we still haven't found these intermediate forms. As Denton puts it,

"Despite the tremendous increase in geological activity in every corner of the globe and despite the discovery of many strange and hitherto unknown forms, the infinitude of connecting links has still not been discovered and the fossil record is about as discontinuous as it was when Darwin was writing the Origin."

The quantity, quality, and range of the recovered fossils is impeccable. But the more we dig, the more we keep finding the same forms over and over again, never the intermediates. Various ad hoc explanations for the gaps in the fossil record, like a temporary dearth in the environment of the chemicals needed for organisms to produce the hard body parts that fossilize well, do not stand scrutiny.

The usual response of evolutionists at this stage in the argument is a theory they call punctuated equilibrium, Gould’s great contribution, which basically says that evolution occurs not gradually but in spurts. This would explain why there are gaps and not continuity in the fossil record. The problem with this theory, which is too complex to go into in detail here, is that while it explains away the non-existence of small gradations, it still requires there to be large ones (the individual spurts) and even these aren't in the record. Furthermore, for punctuated equilibrium to have occurred, a very precise set of conditions have to have obtained throughout the entire past period represented in the fossils, and this is unlikely.

Another development that has undermined evolution is the spread of computers into evolutionary biology. Basically, computers have shown that the neat evolutionary trees that get drawn up are in fact based on imaginary relations of similarity and difference that owe more to the human mind’s tendency to perceive patterns than to the raw biological data. Computers have shown that when the characteristics of different living things are encoded in numerical form and the computer is asked to sort them into sequences based on their similarities and differences, the computer can find any number of ways of doing so that have just as much support in the data as those drawn up by humans to fit an evolutionary tree. The data say "no evolution" just as loudly as they say "evolution"; it’s just the pattern-craving human mind that gives prominence to the former way of viewing it. This is known as phenetic analysis. When the computer is constrained to push the data into an evolutionary tree, (this is called cladistic analysis) it tends to generate trees with all species as individual twigs and no species forming the crucial lower branches of the tree that evolution demands. As a result of this, many biologists have in practice stopped using the idea of ancestors and descendants when classifying new species. When the British Museum of Natural History did this a few years ago, they started a small war in scientific circles.

Evolution also suffers from the problem that many putative sequences which look logical based on the progression of one set of anatomical characteristics suddenly look illogical when attention is switched to another set. For example, the lungfish superficially seems to make a good intermediate between fish and amphibian, until one examines the rest of its internal organs, which are not intermediate in character, nor are the ways in which its eggs develop. And if different species have common ancestors, it would be reasonable to expect that similar structures in the different species be specified in similar ways in their DNA and develop in similar ways in their embryos; this is frequently not so. So evolutionary relationships depend upon an arbitrary choice of which characteristics of the organisms in question are considered most important, and different relationships can be "proved" at will.

Furthermore, Denton argues, the classic cases printed in biology textbooks to show the evolution of present-day organisms from their supposed ancestors are in fact highly conjectural if not downright false. We read the same examples coming up again and again in textbook after textbook because there are only a few species for which an even remotely plausible fossil genealogy can be propounded out of the 100,000 fossil species known to paleontology. He takes the horse as an example and points out that several of the standard claims about the pattern of equine evolution, such as the gradual reduction of the side toes, are extremely questionable and that the morphological distance covered from the earliest horse to the present horses is so small, compared with the vast changes that evolution must encompass, that it is questionable whether the series, even if true, proves much at all. And even the emergence of one species from another has never been directly observed by science.

Another similar example: one of the things that has happened since evolution was first proposed is that biology has achieved a precise cataloging of the thousands of different proteins that make up organisms. It was hoped that a thorough cross-species comparison of these would reveal the kinds of relationships of graded similarity that evolution implies. But it hasn’t. Instead, it has given the same picture of distinct species that examination of gross anatomy does. It’s the same old story of a tree with all twigs and no branches! Worse, analysis of the closeness and distance between different species reveals bizarre results. For example, according to the sequence difference matrix of vertebrate hemoglobins in the standard Dayhoff Atlas of Protein Structure and Function, man is as close to a lamprey as are fish! This problem repeats itself with other characteristics of organisms that have been brought within the scope of evolutionary comparison since Darwin’s day.

Another problem with evolution that has only gotten worse with increasing biological knowledge is the question of how life initially emerged from dead matter.  As recently as the early 50's, it was still possible to hypothesize that discoveries would reveal the existence of entities intermediate between single-celled organisms and complex lifeless molecules. The existence of these intermediates (certain kinds of viruses were candidates for the role) would imply the possibility of an evolutionary transition from dead chemicals to intermediates to life. Unfortunately, the discovery of DNA in 1953 killed this hypothesis in its simplest form, and subsequent discoveries have only made the matter worse. Vast numbers of microorganisms are now known, as are vast numbers of complex molecules, but nothing in between. Furthermore, even the simplest possible cell imaginable within the limits of biology, let alone the simplest actually existing cell, is far too complex to have been thrown together by any known non-living chemical event. So even if evolution has an explanation of how species evolve from one to another, it has no way to "get the ball rolling" by producing the first species from something that is not a species.

There are even distinguished philosophers of science, like Sir Karl Popper, a man of impeccable credentials and no religious ax to grind, who have openly questioned whether evolution is a science at all, in principle and not just in practice, because its assertions are not potentially falsifiable. A true science, like physics, makes claims that can be tested and thus potentially falsified; this vulnerability is what makes it worthy of belief when despite this, the falsification does not happen. But evolution does not make claims of this kind. Furthermore, it is one of the touchstones of science that it is based on repeatable experiments. The data used to support evolution are neither experiments nor repeatable, nor can they be, since the origin of species on earth was a unique event. This doesn’t necessarily make evolution nonsense, but it strongly suggests it doesn’t have the right to demand the kind of acquiescence that physics demands on the strength of its being straightforwardly a science. What exactly evolution is, if Popper is right and it is not quite a science in the conventional sense, is an open question. It is probably not without significance that what is now called biology used to be called natural history, an older and perhaps more appropriate concept.

Anyone who doubts that the bulk of the scientific community could be wrong about a fundamental question like this should consider the case of Newtonian physics, which was thought to be unshakable until Einstein disproved it.  (Lest anybody quibble about the approximate validity of Newtonian physics at non-relativistic speeds, may I point out that Newtonian physics was formerly thought to be valid at all speeds, throughout the universe, and this Einstein refuted.) Evolution is not a fraud being perpetrated upon the public, but it is a theory that has far too many problems to be treated as something that everyone is obliged to believe in on pain of being classified as a fool, as if it were the claim that the earth goes around the sun. Its credibility will continue to wane (or wax) with additional developments in biology over the coming years, but the absolute prerequisite for solving this intellectual puzzle is for free debate on the issue to be permitted again. I am quite happy to change my position if new facts come out, and I urge my readers that this is the only rational view.

you picked what kent hovind arguments you wanted when he accurately described the fallacy of vestigal organism, why fossils would be found and many other points your critique was, abiogensis is not evolution, it is mystery but happened, cause were here, great logic. i dont care about kent hovind or anything else i just hate your biased talk origins and shit they spew like it is fact. we see whole species fully formed no intermidiate species, hence the need for punctuated equilibrium, you have no proof of this and is specualtion at best. i dont care what you think you've done in this thread, but you haven't done anything but expose you weak minded materialisma and lack of counter intuitive thinking. when you post the talk origins rebuttal to this i will post the rebuttal to that.




NeoSeminole

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Re: you pick
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2006, 10:48:43 AM »
oh brother, defend it all you want. there are numerous evolutionists that now renounce it and your skeptic magazine is one of them. read some books on the subject from the other side of the pond bro. fossils are not proof of transition or a extinct species, no one can say for sure. the platupus shows reptile, mammalian, bird, anphibian etc features i guess they evolved from everything.

"Numerous evolutionists" now renounce evolution? You are just using semantics to make your argument sound stronger. Even if a thousand evolutionists suddenly renounced the theory, they would still represent a very small percentage of the scientific community. I already explained to you the definition of a transitional fossil. It does not mean a 'missing link.' A transitional fossil displays a mosaic of features from an older and more recent organism. They tend not to have a significant amount of unique derived traits the derived relative doesn't possess as well. The platapus is considered an intermediate form b/c it has a large number of uniquely derived traits not connected to its derived relative. For example, the only attribute it has in common with reptiles is how it reproduces. The only attribute it has in common with birds is its bill which isn't even made of the same substance nor performs the same function.

Quote
listen i made the claim that photons were the first thing based on gary schoeders book. your link said nothing about matter and energy and if you could pry apart the physics of it im sure you'd arrive at the conclusion gary schoeder made. your arguments are copy and pasted from talkorigins and i dont wish to argue with them.

First of all, I don't copy and paste my posts. I have told you before that I paraphrase what I read. My links only serve for reference so you don't think I'm making shit up. Second, I didn't even go to talkorigins for my last post. I visited multiple physics sites. Third, you are blind if you didn't see the part where it says "all matter and energy was essentially interchangeable and in equilibrium." I highlighted the words for you to see. Read the 4th paragraph down.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:bHLft0oSzOoJ:archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/Cosmos/InTheBeginning.html+Big+Bang+matter+energy+interchangeable&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

Quote
abiogenesis has no proof but you say it happened. you claim one or two fossils prove bannanas and puppies came from the same thing. you claim mutations add material, when all they do is scramble material which usually, more then not, as seen in many studies with fruit flys etc that they become weaker as a whole, not better( lee m spetner here also).

You are confusing fact with theory. We had to come from somewhere. Abiogenesis is the process by which life originated from non-living material. There are several theories that attempt to explain this process. Whether these theories are correct or not is irrelevant. The fact remains abiogenesis did occur. Creationism also fits the description of abiogenesis; the bible claims god created man from the earth. The only way abiogenesis can be disproven is if life spontaneously popped into existence out of nothing.

Quote
yes you've stopped me from beleiving in something other then our brains perceptions

Sure. ;D

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Re: you pick
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2006, 11:09:52 AM »
you keep refusing to that mutations isnt a plusible mechanism for natural selection. ok so transitional fossils are fossils that show traits of different species or phyla? ok so how do you equvicate this to macroevolution, it is just as likely it is a totally seperate species that has become extinct, gradual fossil records aren't reality thus punctuated equilibrium to explain the non-darwinian like fossil record. you take a fossil with features of other "species" and say this species is changing into another one, yet it is equally that it is a seperate specie ala trueorigins phd's claims. so no you haven't proven anything and my knowledge of humans and this world in all facets goes far beyond this silly debate. you make quantum leaps in logic

no abiogensis did not have to occur, non-organic matter did not have to produce life, i could say my dick created life, it is a feasibly as abiogenesis without proof. speculation adds no value what so ever until proven. i say god made living matter and oragnic matter seperate, i have a theory thus it exsists. you keep denying you faulty logic what is eternal i ask you, something has to be explain it without a god that doesn't befy the laws we live by?

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Re: you pick
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2006, 11:15:16 AM »

NeoSeminole

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Re: you pick
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2006, 12:03:40 PM »
http://www.trueorigin.org/
refutes your posts, sme before talk origins some after

Another one of your religious anti-evolution websites. I take what it says with a grain of salt. What awards has that site won? Please do tell. Here's a list of all the awards Talk Origins has won. It also has a list of all the universities that use its archive to teach their courses.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/awards

NeoSeminole

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Re: you pick
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2006, 12:12:57 PM »
The first surprising thing Denton points out is that there has always been a dissident faction of highly distinguished scientists, of impeccable credentials and no religious motivations, who have declined to concede that evolution has been proved. This is inconvenient for evolutionists who would like to dismiss their opponents as Bible-thumping hicks and claim that questioning evolution is tantamount to questioning the value or validity of science. He also points out biologists like Richard Owen, who were prepared to allow that evolution had taken place but thought that other causes were involved in bringing about the origin of species.

The first big problem with evolution is that the fossil record increasingly does not, honestly viewed, support it, a fact that famous Prof. Steven Jay Gould of Harvard has described as "the trade secret of paleontology." Evolutionary theory claims that there once existed a whole series of successive forms of the various organisms alive today. These supposedly changed by infinitesimal amounts with each generation as they evolved into the present varieties, so the fossil record should show these gradual changes. But it doesn’t. Instead, it shows the sudden emergence of new species out of nowhere, fully complete with all their characteristics and not changing over time. It is almost entirely devoid of forms that can plausibly be identified as intermediates between older and newer ones. This is popularly known as the "missing link" problem, and it is massively systematic across different species and time periods. Worse, this problem is getting worse, not better, as more fossils are discovered, as the new fossils just resemble those already found and don’t fill in the gaps. In Darwin's day, it was easy to claim that the fossils were there but had not been discovered. Problem is, we now have hundreds of thousands of well-catalogued fossils, from all continents and geologic eras, and we still haven't found these intermediate forms. As Denton puts it,

"Despite the tremendous increase in geological activity in every corner of the globe and despite the discovery of many strange and hitherto unknown forms, the infinitude of connecting links has still not been discovered and the fossil record is about as discontinuous as it was when Darwin was writing the Origin."

The quantity, quality, and range of the recovered fossils is impeccable. But the more we dig, the more we keep finding the same forms over and over again, never the intermediates. Various ad hoc explanations for the gaps in the fossil record, like a temporary dearth in the environment of the chemicals needed for organisms to produce the hard body parts that fossilize well, do not stand scrutiny.

The usual response of evolutionists at this stage in the argument is a theory they call punctuated equilibrium, Gould’s great contribution, which basically says that evolution occurs not gradually but in spurts. This would explain why there are gaps and not continuity in the fossil record. The problem with this theory, which is too complex to go into in detail here, is that while it explains away the non-existence of small gradations, it still requires there to be large ones (the individual spurts) and even these aren't in the record. Furthermore, for punctuated equilibrium to have occurred, a very precise set of conditions have to have obtained throughout the entire past period represented in the fossils, and this is unlikely.

Another development that has undermined evolution is the spread of computers into evolutionary biology. Basically, computers have shown that the neat evolutionary trees that get drawn up are in fact based on imaginary relations of similarity and difference that owe more to the human mind’s tendency to perceive patterns than to the raw biological data. Computers have shown that when the characteristics of different living things are encoded in numerical form and the computer is asked to sort them into sequences based on their similarities and differences, the computer can find any number of ways of doing so that have just as much support in the data as those drawn up by humans to fit an evolutionary tree. The data say "no evolution" just as loudly as they say "evolution"; it’s just the pattern-craving human mind that gives prominence to the former way of viewing it. This is known as phenetic analysis. When the computer is constrained to push the data into an evolutionary tree, (this is called cladistic analysis) it tends to generate trees with all species as individual twigs and no species forming the crucial lower branches of the tree that evolution demands. As a result of this, many biologists have in practice stopped using the idea of ancestors and descendants when classifying new species. When the British Museum of Natural History did this a few years ago, they started a small war in scientific circles.

Evolution also suffers from the problem that many putative sequences which look logical based on the progression of one set of anatomical characteristics suddenly look illogical when attention is switched to another set. For example, the lungfish superficially seems to make a good intermediate between fish and amphibian, until one examines the rest of its internal organs, which are not intermediate in character, nor are the ways in which its eggs develop. And if different species have common ancestors, it would be reasonable to expect that similar structures in the different species be specified in similar ways in their DNA and develop in similar ways in their embryos; this is frequently not so. So evolutionary relationships depend upon an arbitrary choice of which characteristics of the organisms in question are considered most important, and different relationships can be "proved" at will.

Furthermore, Denton argues, the classic cases printed in biology textbooks to show the evolution of present-day organisms from their supposed ancestors are in fact highly conjectural if not downright false. We read the same examples coming up again and again in textbook after textbook because there are only a few species for which an even remotely plausible fossil genealogy can be propounded out of the 100,000 fossil species known to paleontology. He takes the horse as an example and points out that several of the standard claims about the pattern of equine evolution, such as the gradual reduction of the side toes, are extremely questionable and that the morphological distance covered from the earliest horse to the present horses is so small, compared with the vast changes that evolution must encompass, that it is questionable whether the series, even if true, proves much at all. And even the emergence of one species from another has never been directly observed by science.

Another similar example: one of the things that has happened since evolution was first proposed is that biology has achieved a precise cataloging of the thousands of different proteins that make up organisms. It was hoped that a thorough cross-species comparison of these would reveal the kinds of relationships of graded similarity that evolution implies. But it hasn’t. Instead, it has given the same picture of distinct species that examination of gross anatomy does. It’s the same old story of a tree with all twigs and no branches! Worse, analysis of the closeness and distance between different species reveals bizarre results. For example, according to the sequence difference matrix of vertebrate hemoglobins in the standard Dayhoff Atlas of Protein Structure and Function, man is as close to a lamprey as are fish! This problem repeats itself with other characteristics of organisms that have been brought within the scope of evolutionary comparison since Darwin’s day.

Another problem with evolution that has only gotten worse with increasing biological knowledge is the question of how life initially emerged from dead matter.  As recently as the early 50's, it was still possible to hypothesize that discoveries would reveal the existence of entities intermediate between single-celled organisms and complex lifeless molecules. The existence of these intermediates (certain kinds of viruses were candidates for the role) would imply the possibility of an evolutionary transition from dead chemicals to intermediates to life. Unfortunately, the discovery of DNA in 1953 killed this hypothesis in its simplest form, and subsequent discoveries have only made the matter worse. Vast numbers of microorganisms are now known, as are vast numbers of complex molecules, but nothing in between. Furthermore, even the simplest possible cell imaginable within the limits of biology, let alone the simplest actually existing cell, is far too complex to have been thrown together by any known non-living chemical event. So even if evolution has an explanation of how species evolve from one to another, it has no way to "get the ball rolling" by producing the first species from something that is not a species.

There are even distinguished philosophers of science, like Sir Karl Popper, a man of impeccable credentials and no religious ax to grind, who have openly questioned whether evolution is a science at all, in principle and not just in practice, because its assertions are not potentially falsifiable. A true science, like physics, makes claims that can be tested and thus potentially falsified; this vulnerability is what makes it worthy of belief when despite this, the falsification does not happen. But evolution does not make claims of this kind. Furthermore, it is one of the touchstones of science that it is based on repeatable experiments. The data used to support evolution are neither experiments nor repeatable, nor can they be, since the origin of species on earth was a unique event. This doesn’t necessarily make evolution nonsense, but it strongly suggests it doesn’t have the right to demand the kind of acquiescence that physics demands on the strength of its being straightforwardly a science. What exactly evolution is, if Popper is right and it is not quite a science in the conventional sense, is an open question. It is probably not without significance that what is now called biology used to be called natural history, an older and perhaps more appropriate concept.

Anyone who doubts that the bulk of the scientific community could be wrong about a fundamental question like this should consider the case of Newtonian physics, which was thought to be unshakable until Einstein disproved it.  (Lest anybody quibble about the approximate validity of Newtonian physics at non-relativistic speeds, may I point out that Newtonian physics was formerly thought to be valid at all speeds, throughout the universe, and this Einstein refuted.) Evolution is not a fraud being perpetrated upon the public, but it is a theory that has far too many problems to be treated as something that everyone is obliged to believe in on pain of being classified as a fool, as if it were the claim that the earth goes around the sun. Its credibility will continue to wane (or wax) with additional developments in biology over the coming years, but the absolute prerequisite for solving this intellectual puzzle is for free debate on the issue to be permitted again. I am quite happy to change my position if new facts come out, and I urge my readers that this is the only rational view.

you picked what kent hovind arguments you wanted when he accurately described the fallacy of vestigal organism, why fossils would be found and many other points your critique was, abiogensis is not evolution, it is mystery but happened, cause were here, great logic. i dont care about kent hovind or anything else i just hate your biased talk origins and shit they spew like it is fact. we see whole species fully formed no intermidiate species, hence the need for punctuated equilibrium, you have no proof of this and is specualtion at best. i dont care what you think you've done in this thread, but you haven't done anything but expose you weak minded materialisma and lack of counter intuitive thinking. when you post the talk origins rebuttal to this i will post the rebuttal to that.

The only paragraph that you wrote is the last one. I know this b/c your grammar and vocabulary is not consistent with the rest of the post. Nice try! ;)

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Re: you pick
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2006, 12:36:10 PM »
i didnt write it nor did i claim too. i copied and pasted it, because ive wrote pages already and posting links is easier. what do you mean talkorigins while claming neutrality is super biased. anyway there are numerous phd's on the site if you want to take a look.

i dont want to continue really unless you bring up something interesting as the theard is the same points over and over and neither of us is going to convince the other. i will finish the books and give you the arguments. until then if you want to continue the balls in your court. 60 replys when 20 was were the arguments stopped is just getting stupid. you post links i post links blah blah i belive in god you claim you know he doesn't exsist while things beides science point to it. that being metaphysics, parapsychology.
http://faithfacts.gospelcom.net/ev_origins.html

"we are a combination of two things or entities: our brains on the one hand and our conscious selves on the other" ... Professor Sir John Eccles, Nobel Prize Winner


Brain specialists, Prof. J.C.Eccles, Sir Cyril Burt, Dr.Wilder Penfield and Prof.W.H.Thorpe stated that in their opinion the brain appears to be more a complicated organism to register and channel consciousness rather than produce it. "The brain is messenger to consciousness", Eccles said. In his famous debate with philosopher Popper "The self and its brain" this matter was examined further.



NeoSeminole

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Re: you pick
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2006, 04:11:06 PM »
i didnt write it nor did i claim too. i copied and pasted it, because ive wrote pages already and posting links is easier. what do you mean talkorigins while claming neutrality is super biased. anyway there are numerous phd's on the site if you want to take a look.

Your post did not contain quotation marks or a reference. Therefore, it is assumed those are your own words. I already told you that I paraphrase what I read. If you are incapable of grasping material and explaining it to me in your own words, then it's impossible to have an intelligent discussion with you. I question the credibility of trueorigin.org. It is a religious site that clearly has an anti-evolution agenda. No respectable science website would contain so much bias. That is why I asked you what awards has it won.

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i dont want to continue really unless you bring up something interesting as the theard is the same points over and over and neither of us is going to convince the other. i will finish the books and give you the arguments. until then if you want to continue the balls in your court. 60 replys when 20 was were the arguments stopped is just getting stupid. you post links i post links blah blah i belive in god you claim you know he doesn't exsist while things beides science point to it. that being metaphysics, parapsychology.
http://faithfacts.gospelcom.net/ev_origins.html

I have refuted claim after claim from you. Now you don't want to continue after I have you backed up against the wall. You cannot honestly tell me that we reached a stalemate. Here is a list of your arguments that I refuted.

- infered that a scientific theory can be proven
- tried to disprove evolution by attacking abiogenesis
- said the Big Bang Theory violates the 1st law of thermodynamics
- claimed the Big Bang was an explosion
- said the formation of a star is not well understood and has never been observed
- claimed design in nature proves an intelligent creator
- said evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics
- claimed there are no transitional fossils
- said Archaeopteryx has been refuted
- thought the Big Bang initially produced only light beams
- claimed life began immediately after the earth cooled

Which of my comments have you debunked? None. Your claim "neither of us is going to convince the other" suggests that your beliefs are just as valid as mine. This idea is simply ludicrous. There is a wealth of evidence that supports evolution and the Big Bang. I have provided several examples in this discussion. How much evidence proves the existence of god(s)? None.

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"we are a combination of two things or entities: our brains on the one hand and our conscious selves on the other" ... Professor Sir John Eccles, Nobel Prize Winner

Brain specialists, Prof. J.C.Eccles, Sir Cyril Burt, Dr.Wilder Penfield and Prof.W.H.Thorpe stated that in their opinion the brain appears to be more a complicated organism to register and channel consciousness rather than produce it. "The brain is messenger to consciousness", Eccles said. In his famous debate with philosopher Popper "The self and its brain" this matter was examined further.

How does this disprove evolution?

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Re: you pick
« Reply #64 on: October 08, 2006, 08:07:09 AM »


I have refuted claim after claim from you. Now you don't want to continue after I have you backed up against the wall. You cannot honestly tell me that we reached a stalemate. Here is a list of your arguments that I refuted.

- infered that a scientific theory can be proven
- tried to disprove evolution by attacking abiogenesis
- said the Big Bang Theory violates the 1st law of thermodynamics
- claimed the Big Bang was an explosion
- said the formation of a star is not well understood and has never been observed
- claimed design in nature proves an intelligent creator
- said evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics
- claimed there are no transitional fossils
- said Archaeopteryx has been refuted
- thought the Big Bang initially produced only light beams
- claimed life began immediately after the earth cooled

Which of my comments have you debunked? None. Your claim "neither of us is going to convince the other" suggests that your beliefs are just as valid as mine. This idea is simply ludicrous. There is a wealth of evidence that supports evolution and the Big Bang. I have provided several examples in this discussion. How much evidence proves the existence of god(s)? None.

How does this disprove evolution?


-i didn't infer a scientific theory could be proven i said prove evolution occured. then i used the example of gravity to show how it could be proven(mathematics, functional tests done in the present). the fact is evolution cant be dissected in the lab thus is more of a model then theory, you cant test to see if animals change into one another, you can make inferences, which at the core is more of a model.

-fossils appear fully formed in the fossil record, not in steps as would be seen via darwianian evolution. thus punctuated equilibrium which has no proof but specualation. explain the sudden explosion of fossils in the record in an abrupt fashion. with all the extinction you would think in the last couple hundred, maybe thousand years or so someone would have seen evidence of macroevolution, but nope just extinction of numerous species and nothin more. your claim of transitional fossils has been jawbones constructed into full bodies, and since they are fully formed they just as likely could be whole species that became extinct just like thousands of others. like if you found a platupus fossil you would say look this is changing into a reptile, bird, fish etc. when in fact it is just a different species althogether, but you  can speculate and view it however you like.

-if you cant understand how the exsistence of the big bang violates the laws of thermodynamics then you have bigger problems then this arguments. the big bang would indicate singularity( i agree with the big bang) so therefore if it is the absolute beginning as science would have you beleive at this present juncture, energy had to be made, or inputed. this is not a difficult to comprehend yet it seems to slip through your fingers

- oh jesus, the big bang did initially only produce light beams, i read this in a nuclear physicists book and perhaps the smartest person over at avant and a global mod verified my claim.

-again refer to schoeders book for details on the rest of your assumptions.

-natural selection needs beneficial mutations in which the organism gains something over its peers to survive. i provided lee m spetners rebuttal to that, he is considered one of the leaders in the field.

stop posting what you debunked, abiogenesis didnt occur because it hasn't been proven. i dont care what you think happened it doesn't mean it had to come from inorganic material. punctuated equilibrium hasn't a shred of evidence and flaws posted in the link i provided. so gradual evolution doesn't work or at least the fossil record would refute it, so PE is proposed with no evidence yet is scientific give me a break.


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Re: you pick
« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2006, 08:15:44 AM »
http://www.trueorigin.org/birdevo.asp

bird evolution for you, with numerous references to phd's who discredit it. read it if you want, but dont claim like anything you state is fact that is my problem with the model of evolution.

NeoSeminole

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Re: you pick
« Reply #66 on: October 08, 2006, 01:24:23 PM »
-i didn't infer a scientific theory could be proven i said prove evolution occured. then i used the example of gravity to show how it could be proven(mathematics, functional tests done in the present). the fact is evolution cant be dissected in the lab thus is more of a model then theory, you cant test to see if animals change into one another, you can make inferences, which at the core is more of a model.

You did infer a scientific theory could be proven. ;)

also, i want to point out to you that evolution is just a theory and not fact like you champion it to be.

Your comment "evolution is just a theory" suggests the only reason evolution is a theory is b/c it hasn't been proven. In science, a theory can never be proven. You also demonstrate a lack of understanding scientific terminology. Evolution is both fact and theory. Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. The theory of evolution explains the mechanism of this phenomena. Gravity is also a scientific theory; it describes how bodies of mass interact with each other.

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-fossils appear fully formed in the fossil record, not in steps as would be seen via darwianian evolution. thus punctuated equilibrium which has no proof but specualation. explain the sudden explosion of fossils in the record in an abrupt fashion. with all the extinction you would think in the last couple hundred, maybe thousand years or so someone would have seen evidence of macroevolution, but nope just extinction of numerous species and nothin more. your claim of transitional fossils has been jawbones constructed into full bodies, and since they are fully formed they just as likely could be whole species that became extinct just like thousands of others. like if you found a platupus fossil you would say look this is changing into a reptile, bird, fish etc. when in fact it is just a different species althogether, but you  can speculate and view it however you like.

Could you please be more specific when you say "darwinian evolution?" Darwin's theory of evolution consists of multiple theories. Punctuated equilibrium and gradualism are not incompatible. Darwin never claimed evolution occurs at a constant rate. Research shows small, isolated populations evolve quicker than large, open populations. These observatons were the basis of punctuated equilibrim. It wasn't invented to explain a lack of transitional fossils like you keep saying. Furthermore, you do not specify a length of time for the sudden appearance of fossils. It may very well have been several million years. This is hardly sudden. I already told you why the platapus is not transitional.

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-if you cant understand how the exsistence of the big bang violates the laws of thermodynamics then you have bigger problems then this arguments. the big bang would indicate singularity( i agree with the big bang) so therefore if it is the absolute beginning as science would have you beleive at this present juncture, energy had to be made, or inputed. this is not a difficult to comprehend yet it seems to slip through your fingers

I have already explained to you why the Big Bang does not violate the laws of thermodynamics. You keep saying something cannot come frome nothing. This is not true. I told you to look up quantum fluctuations, which I bet you haven't yet. I even explained how it's possible for the Big Bang to circumvent the 1st law of thermodynamics. I cannot force you to look at the evidence, but these links provide answers if you have an open mind.

http://jersey.uoregon.edu/~js/ast123/lectures/lec17.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html#firstlaw

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- oh jesus, the big bang did initially only produce light beams, i read this in a nuclear physicists book and perhaps the smartest person over at avant and a global mod verified my claim.

I have visited numerous physics websites that say matter and energy were interchangable during the earliest moments after the Big Bang. The closest thing I could find to your statement is that the Big Bang released a huge amount of energy in the form of photons. This energy was not "light beams" (visible spectrum) but a different type of electromagnetic radiation which can still be measured today. The very instant these photons were created, they immediately converted into matter and vice versa. It wasn't until 10-12 sec. after the Big Bang that quarks and electrons were able to exist separate from photons.

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-again refer to schoeders book for details on the rest of your assumptions.

No thanks, you can paraphrase what he says. My intentions are not to 'preach' evolution or the Big Bang, rather I am simply defending both theories from your ignorant comments. I have no desire to go out of my way to disprove a creationist book.

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-natural selection needs beneficial mutations in which the organism gains something over its peers to survive. i provided lee m spetners rebuttal to that, he is considered one of the leaders in the field.

I don't see it. Could you post it again?

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stop posting what you debunked, abiogenesis didnt occur because it hasn't been proven. i dont care what you think happened it doesn't mean it had to come from inorganic material. punctuated equilibrium hasn't a shred of evidence and flaws posted in the link i provided. so gradual evolution doesn't work or at least the fossil record would refute it, so PE is proposed with no evidence yet is scientific give me a break.

If abiogenesis didn't occur, then the Bible is wrong b/c it says god created man from non-living material. ;D

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

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Re: you pick
« Reply #67 on: October 08, 2006, 02:48:01 PM »
with regard to the quantum fluctuations i have already stated that evidence shows that the universe is not superheavy.

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Re: you pick
« Reply #68 on: October 09, 2006, 04:26:41 AM »
Lightrays are made of consumable fairy dust!!!!!!  >:(

NeoSeminole

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Re: you pick
« Reply #69 on: October 09, 2006, 01:34:43 PM »
with regard to the quantum fluctuations i have already stated that evidence shows that the universe is not superheavy.

First of all, what does a superheavy universe mean? Second, how does this disprove quantum fluctuations? It sounds to me like you are just repeating what you read somewhere without comprehending it.

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Re: you pick
« Reply #70 on: October 09, 2006, 08:16:10 PM »
ok, ive posted it twice and once in a video format with a nuclear physicist from mit explaining it briefly.this is why this debate is gone to shit, you keep asking me to post ref etc or tell me what you refuted then i post material from phd's debunking evolution and you call it shit. if your mind is that closed there's no point in arguing, if you understood the premise of quantum fluctuations you could easily see what im referring to.

the lee m spetner link is above with me stating some of lee m spetners stuff about mutations. but your reply is post it again. i post a thread about the fossil record and your famed bird from phd's and you get into awards that your site has won. open up your mind to my side and to things like spirituality as some of the best thinkers, no the best thinkers ever connected with a spiritual side. i dont claim to be a religious zealot or claim to have let jesus in my life i just see god in life and through philosophic and logical arguments like aquinas and other great thinkers succumb to the fact of a creator of spiritual reality beyond what our perceptions ( just the world in our heads) tell us.

the quotes were from top neuroscience phd's stating that it seems that consciouness and the mind aren't substrates of neural processes indicating consciousness resides as a seperate identity. this would indicate what many religions, cultures etc.. have been saying all along about the soul etc which in turn would indicate a god in my mind and others. also,  western civilization is never the leader in any field and take science for a run around in medicine, neuroscience etc with eastern cultures leading the way. that has nothing to do with god but i posted numerous materials and points about many things and you ignore them because of the site and say skeptic sites are the best material. no, if a phd for instance comes up with sound research and it gets posted on either site it is good material like the spetner material you dismissed because the site hasn't won the best westy website in the skeptic world.

NeoSeminole

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Re: you pick
« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2006, 02:12:05 AM »
ok, ive posted it twice and once in a video format with a nuclear physicist from mit explaining it briefly.this is why this debate is gone to shit, you keep asking me to post ref etc or tell me what you refuted then i post material from phd's debunking evolution and you call it shit. if your mind is that closed there's no point in arguing, if you understood the premise of quantum fluctuations you could easily see what im referring to.

Bullshit! You have never once explained what is a superheavy universe nor have you showed me how this disproves quantum fluctuations. I keep asking you to explain them to me, but you still haven't. I went back and looked through all our threads. This is all I could find.

also the universe is not superheavy as evidenced by data thus not self sustaining if that was an argument.

you used quantum fluctuation for the explanation of origin and when i claim the universe isn't superheavy you say you dont know what im refering to.

-you proposed quantum fluctuation as a argument for origin in another theard and claim i did for some reason, yet you dont know what  a superheavy universe is.

with regard to the quantum fluctuations i have already stated that evidence shows that the universe is not superheavy.

Where have you answered my questions? You claim to have "posted it twice" but I don't see it. All I see is that you made a statement without providing any explanation. It would be like me replying to your comment "evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics" by saying "no, it doesn't." The only reason this discussion has become stale is b/c you have already made up your mind that evolution and the Big Bang are wrong. No amount of evidence will ever make you change your mind. Even if I refute your comments, you will just find another excuse why not to accept either theories.

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the lee m spetner link is above with me stating some of lee m spetners stuff about mutations. but your reply is post it again. i post a thread about the fossil record and your famed bird from phd's and you get into awards that your site has won. open up your mind to my side and to things like spirituality as some of the best thinkers, no the best thinkers ever connected with a spiritual side. i dont claim to be a religious zealot or claim to have let jesus in my life i just see god in life and through philosophic and logical arguments like aquinas and other great thinkers succumb to the fact of a creator of spiritual reality beyond what our perceptions ( just the world in our heads) tell us.

I asked you to post it again. Big deal. I'm not really sure why this bothers you. I ask you to repost some of your comments b/c I will forget what you said earlier, and I sometimes have difficulty trying to find it again. It's much easier for me to just ask you to repeat what you said. All you have to do is copy and paste. The reason I questioned the credibility of trueorigin.org is b/c it's a religious website that clearly has an anti-evolution agenda. Furthermore, it openly advocates creationsim even though not a shred of evidence proves the existence of god(s). No respectable science website would contain so much bias. For all I know, half the shit in there is wrong just like Kent Hovind uses 'fake' science to disprove evolution. I know you would question the credibility of an evolution website if it claimed god does not exist. So why do you expect me not to say anything while you use an anti-evolution website that says god created the universe? By the way, this link contains a rebutal to Dr. Lee Spetner. Your guy claims the last reply he recieved from Dr. Edward Max was September 25, 2000. This is a lie. Why am I not surprised? Dr. Max responded to Dr. Spetner in 2001. You can even check the dates for yourself.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/fitness/spetner.html

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the quotes were from top neuroscience phd's stating that it seems that consciouness and the mind aren't substrates of neural processes indicating consciousness resides as a seperate identity. this would indicate what many religions, cultures etc.. have been saying all along about the soul etc which in turn would indicate a god in my mind and others. also,  western civilization is never the leader in any field and take science for a run around in medicine, neuroscience etc with eastern cultures leading the way. that has nothing to do with god but i posted numerous materials and points about many things and you ignore them because of the site and say skeptic sites are the best material. no, if a phd for instance comes up with sound research and it gets posted on either site it is good material like the spetner material you dismissed because the site hasn't won the best westy website in the skeptic world.

::)