Author Topic: Attitudes Toward the Bible  (Read 35020 times)

OzmO

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2007, 10:25:08 AM »
OzmO, I know you believe in God.  Is the God in which you believe omniscient?

Stella,

You must remember, my main contention is that the Bible is not the 100% Word of God.

Yes,  i believe God is omniscient.

Butterbean

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2007, 10:34:34 AM »
Stella,

You must remember, my main contention is that the Bible is not the 100% Word of God.


OK yes


Yes,  i believe God is omniscient.

Knowing what you know now about Adolf Hitler or Ted Bundy, would it have been better if they would have died at some point in their life before embarking on their murderous rampages?

 
R

OzmO

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2007, 10:44:29 AM »
OK yes

Knowing what you know now about Adolf Hitler or Ted Bundy, would it have been better if they would have died at some point in their life before embarking on their murderous rampages?

 

Would killing 1000 children in hopes of killing Adolf Hitler and Ted Bundy be justified?

loco

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #53 on: August 09, 2007, 10:45:48 AM »
My heart rejoices... for your children's sake :)

You are welcome!  I'm glad that I can bring rejoicing to your life!  ;)

Read up on your scripture man!!!! From Judges 11:

Oh, don't worry!  I have been studying the Bible everyday for the last 20 years.   ;)
 
God may have simply been testing Abraham's faith, but he wanted Jephthah to kill his own daughter for God!!!

Also, re: Jephthah....God did not "want Jephthah to kill his own daughter for God."  It was a vow Jephthah made on his own.  He killed his daughter all on his own.

Maybe you should "Read up on your scripture man!!!!"    :)
 
Here's my problem with "faith." "Faith" demands the suspension of reason. You are told to accept, with no evidence whatsoever, some Iron Age texts (contradictory and bizarre as they
may be) as axioms not to be questioned. Reason and common sense are to be suspended.

Thanks to her faith in Jesus Christ, Lottie Moon was driven to give up her comfy life in the US and move to China where she died helping, educating and feeding starving Chinese.
 
Thanks to his faith in the God of the Bible, George Muller was driven and empowered to care for, feed and educate more than 100,000 orphans in his life time. 
 
Thanks to his faith in Jesus Christ, Dietrich Bonhoeffer refused to stand by and do nothing about the Holocaust.  His faith gave him the courage to opposed Hitler's treatment of Jews and he also helped many Jews escape.  For this he was arrested, tortured and murdered by the Nazis.

These are just several of many examples of the good that comes from true faith in Jesus Christ. Can you name several atheists by name that have done nearly as much as these people?
 
You are to be lauded for saying you won't kill your children on God's orders. But that makes you one of "little faith." You won't kill your children because your reason holds some sway over your faith, so you rationalized it away. Surely, the suicide bomber who answers God's call to kill is far more faithful than you! He practices what he preaches!!!

No.  You are wrong.  I won't kill my children were I to hear "God's orders" in my head because God already told me in the Bible that God does not want, and actually forbids human sacrifice.  Therefore, by your own logic, that makes me a man of great faith, great faith in God and great faith in His Word, the Bible.  I practice what I preach.
 
As for all those good acts you mention, they don't mean your faith is "right." They can just as well be practiced by a Muslim, a Jew, an Atheist, or a Buddhist. We don't need faith and supernatural threats of hell-fire and damnation to be good.

Those "good acts" are more than just that.  They are God's law, and they are good.  Obviously, the world was not practicing them before God gave them.   Otherwise God would not have given them.  People were doing the opposite and probably thinking that it was okay, burning their children on the fire for their idols, committing adultery, stealing, etc.
 
And how is this a "supernatural threats of hell-fire and damnation to be good."
 
Deuteronomy 5:16
"Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
 
Deuteronomy 5:32-33
So be careful to do what the LORD your God has commanded you; do not turn aside to the right or to the left. Walk in all the way that the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess.
 
Once again, faith is the suspension of reason. Your faith may be leading you to be good, but you can be good any way.

So if my faith is leading me and many others to do good or be good, how is our faith wrong or bad?  What is the problem then?
 
Many others are being led by faith to commit unspeakable horrors. Once again, the suicide bomber comes to mind.

Agreed, but the Bible does not teach anyone to do this, suicide bombings or suicide attacks of any kind.  And that doesn't mean that faith in itself is bad or evil.  It's like saying that a scalpel is evil because it's sharp and can or has been used to cut someone's throat and killed him/her.  No, a scalpel was designed to perform surgery on a person to save him/her or make his/her health better.  Same with faith.  Faith in itself is good.

No it doesn't. None of that shows why when God speaks to Jews, or Christians, or you, it's actually God speaking, but when God speaks to Muslims and tells them to blow shit up it isn't really God speaking.

First of all, you do not see Jews or Christian suicide bombers.  You do not see Jews and Christians flying planes into buildings.  Explain that.

Incidentally, if the Jews are God's people, why hasn't he taken the time in the past 2000 years to send them a memo saying Judaism is over and he has a new revelation for them? Or has he stopped speaking to them ever since he started speaking to the Gentiles and Arabs?

The last time God spoke to the world was through Jesus Christ.  And and God has been performing a lot of miracles with Israel in our day and age, but you refuse to see.

The rest of your logic is so fallacious and contorted (no offense meant) that it is one non sequitur after another after another.

No offense taken.   ;)

What about the Aborigines of Australia? Or the other Pacific islanders?

What about them?  They can't compare to the Jews.  Have they been exposed to all the same empires, attempts of assimilation, persecutions, attepmpt of exterminations over as many centuries as the Jews have?  No.  But I'm willing learn from you if you have any better examples.

Or the Arabs? Their languages and religions still exist.

Egypts original language was not Arab, nor were the Arab's original religion Islam.  Islam is relatively new compare to Judaism and Christianity.

In fact, whereas the Hebrew language changed (the influence of Yiddish etc) Arabic is still the same today as it was in the time of Mohammed.

True, but now you are speaking of a language only, where as I was speaking of not only a language, but a nation, a people, a culture, etc.  Arabs are not a nation, but a people of many nations.  None can compare to Israel when you consider all aspects of the nation and the people of Israel.

In fact, God forgot the Jews

God didn't forget the Jews.

and let them be persecuted for centuries, but he helped the Muslims conquer the Orient, northern Africa, Spain, southeastern Europe, parts of France, and central Asia all the way to the borders of China. God let the Muslims conquer the Christian Byzantine empire and defeat the Crusaders. So your claims prove nothing yet again.

Only to get their butts kicked by "tiny" Israel over and over again for the past seven decades.  ;)

You seem to use the word "believe" over and over, yet you admit not having seen a single shred of evidence. You believe because you believe because you believe. How do you know that what Jesus said in the Bible is what Jesus really said? Why don't you also believe in "The Book of Mormon: A second testament of Jesus Christ"? It's just a matter of personal preference for you.

First of all, I have faith.  That faith came from God when I heard God's word.  After I believed, I now do see evidence everywhere.  And the book of the cult of Mormon contradicts both, the New and the Old testament.

You probably don't know how scary that sounds. Let me change just two nouns...
Sounds like something you'd hear on a cassette tape from a cave in Afghanistan? It is just as valid as the statement you made.

Scary?  You are really scared of Jews and Christians?  Then you are very easily scared.  Again, there are no Jewish or Christian suicide bombers and Jews and Christians don't fly planes into buildings.  So relax.

It is very clear that you have a bone to pick with Muslims.  What puzzles me is that instead of attacking the Muslim faith and their religious texts, you insist on attacking the Bible, the Jewish and the Christian faiths.  You continue to throw the Bible, Christians, Jews and suicide bombers in the same sentence. It doesn't make any sense to me.

Butterbean

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2007, 10:55:00 AM »
Would killing 1000 children in hopes of killing Adolf Hitler and Ted Bundy be justified?

God doesn't need to hope he "gets 'em" by killing off several.  You and I agree that God is omniscient.  Wouldn't He know what He was doing?  He knows the past, present and future. 


Even if you may think the odds are against a group of all 1000 children being "bad seeds",  the possibility is there, correct?
R

OzmO

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2007, 11:04:42 AM »
God doesn't need to hope he "gets 'em" by killing off several.  You and I agree that God is omniscient.  Wouldn't He know what He was doing?  He knows the past, present and future. 


Even if you may think the odds are against a group of all 1000 children being "bad seeds",  the possibility is there, correct?

No i don't.

Common sense at the very least says it only justifies the action of man.


loco

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2007, 11:05:22 AM »
So ordering the killing of people is not endorsing it?  Com on loco.

God ordered the killing of Children.  PERIOD.  Spin it as much as you want but the God in the OT is one evil bastard.

I know,  :) i couldn't help it.  because it such hypocrisy.  Becuase it relates to another debate we had when you claim the 3000 men were killed to prevent the sacrificial killing of children but it's ok to kill children if they belong to a "evil" nation.   ::)   More monster double standards brought to you by the allege WOG.

What I'm saying it not false loco.   You are playing the "stupid" game by trying to act like you don;t understand the concept of drawing comparisons and you top it off by the stupid question:

My Logic is absurd?   You support a book that justifies the killing of children and you call me absurd?   HAHAHAHAHA ::)

OzmO,
God ordered Israel to destroy specific, wicked nations.  God named them by name.  This happened then, and then only.  Had Israel attacked a nation in the name of God when God did not specifically ordered them to attack, God would have not been pleased and Israel would have been punished.  That is not endorsing the murder of anyone, including children.  

When was the last time you heard of Christian or Jews destroying a nation, children and all, in the name of God these days?  And Christians and Jews believe the Bible is the word of God and read and study it daily.  Explain that.  

Why does the Bible tell you, OzmO(a guy who doesn't believe in the Bible), that God endorses killing children, yet it doesn't tell Christians and Jews that at all?  On the contrary, our faith in the Bible makes us want to avoid evil and to do good.  When was the last time you saw Christian and Jewish suicide bombers or when did you see them flying planes into buildings?  

If you do not want to believe in the Bible because it doesn't endorse pre-marital sex, abortion and homosexuality, that is fine.  That is your choice.  Nobody is forcing you to believe in the Bible.  But if faith in the Bible is driving Christians and Jews to do good and avoid evil, then what is your problem?  Should we all covert to Islam then?

OzmO

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2007, 11:28:58 AM »
OzmO,
God ordered Israel to destroy specific, wicked nations.  God named them by name.  This happened then, and then only.  Had Israel attacked a nation in the name of God when God did not specifically ordered them to attack, God would have not been pleased and Israel would have been punished.  That is not endorsing the murder of anyone, including children. 


Let's go back to the original contention:   the Bible is not the word of God.

For God to order a nation destroyed would mean killing the children and of course many innocent people. 

When ordering someone to kill you are endorsing their action especially if you forbid to kill in the first place. 

that is why the OT is not the word of God, but instead the word of man.

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Why does the Bible tell you, OzmO(a guy who doesn't believe in the Bible), that God endorses killing children, yet it doesn't tell Christians and Jews that at all?  On the contrary, our faith in the Bible makes want to avoid evil and to do good.  When was the last time you saw Christian and Jewish suicide bombers or when did you see them flying planes into buildings? 

Becuase, as most who profess themselves as Christians have not critically read the every word of the Bible.  It's an unfortunate world we live in today when people hold on to  their beliefs in the face of contradicting facts.   Christians and Jews, Muslims and Hindus all know better than to kill children.   The writers of the OT did not. 

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If you do not want to believe in the Bible because it doesn't endorse pre-marital sex, abortion and homosexuality, that is fine.  That is your choice.  Nobody is forcing you to believe in the Bible.  But if faith in the Bible is driving Christians and Jews to do good and avoid evil, then what is your problem?  Should be all covert to Islam then?

Life style choices being one of the many reasons the Bible is not the word God, is not my main reasons.  This type of thing:  Killing children and justifying it much in the way you do, in my heart and with common sense tells me the Bible is the word of man.

columbusdude82

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2007, 11:36:06 AM »
Loco, the Book of Mormon is as valid a book of scripture to the Latterday Saints, and the Koran is as valid a revelation to Muslims, as the Bible is to you. Just because you dismiss them doesn't make them go away, or make the faith of their believers any less than yours. I know that the Book of Mormon is a clear forgery, and the Koran is a plagiarism of the previous two monotheisms, but to the believers, they are "holy" books, because of their SUSPENSION OF REASON. It is that same SUSPENSION OF REASON (also known as faith) that leads poor people to send their last dime to millionaire televangelists...

I have no more quarrel with Yahweh than I do with Zeus, Poseidon, Jupiter, and the other mythological heroes, but to force the mythologies of Yahweh into the science classroom, into the political agenda, into our civil laws is lunacy, all the more stupid because there is no more evidence for Yahweh than for Zeus, and because it takes a great deal of mental acrobatics (at which you are very good) to justify treating that mythology as "good," "moral," "holy," etc...

As for your list of people who committed "good acts," it's like you're reducing religion to charity. Suddenly the purpose of Christianity becomes to serve as USAID, Unicef, or Oxfam... "With or without religion, good people will commit good acts, and evil people will commit evil acts. But to get good people to commit evil acts, it takes religion."

As for your use of the term "atheist," let me draw your attention that you too, in the words of Richard Dawkins, "are an atheist with respect to most of the gods that mankind has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." I am only slighly more atheist than you :)

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The last time God spoke to the world was through Jesus Christ.
Please send that memo to Pat Robertson, the Mormons, and the Muslims ;)

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You are really scared of Jews and Christians?
Don't put words in my mouth. I said, by taking your exact same quote, replacing the noun "God" with "Allah," and "Israel" with "the Arabs," you get a chilling message that sounds like it came out of a cave in Afghanistan. You cannot deny other gods what you accept for your own. If your god can send people out to destroy wicked nations, then Allah too has every right to send Muslims to blow us up.

Christianity and Judaism have been "defanged" now, and the Church, for instance, can no longer torture and burn people who dare think. The Enlightenment and the Scientific Revolution happened because the Church was defanged, and its stranglehold on free inquiry removed. My hope is that Islam too will be defanged, by the same forces of reason and science.

The SUSPENSION OF REASON still makes Christianity dangerous. What if some nut decides to take literally the words of Jesus in Luke 19:27: "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me." You will probably defend him saying:

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Yes, it bothers me that Jesus would send his followers to kill other people, including women and children.  And it should bother me.  But I trust Jesus's wisdom and justice.  Jesus gave these people many chances, many warnings, and they did not listen.  So they were judged and condemned.  Only God creates life and only God can give or take it as He sees fit.  And we humans need to watch our choices and actions as they often affect our children and our children's children.


OzmO

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2007, 11:41:35 AM »
SUSPENSION OF REASON


Yeah, that's what causes a person to justify killing a nation which would mean killing children.


Loco, the next time you pass by a child, let's say 7 years old, imagine taking a sharp knife and cutting that child's throat and watching the child bleed to death right before your eyes.  Imagine the sound of skin breaking ,imagine the scream, imagine the look on the mothers face.



Then try and tell me this is what GOD ordered for an entire nation of children


columbusdude82

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2007, 11:42:40 AM »
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Again, there are no Jewish or Christian suicide bombers and Jews and Christians don't fly planes into buildings.  So relax.

I can relax on that count, but not others. There are intellectual midgets out there who want to force the creation myths of Judaism into the science curriculum as fact, IN SPITE OF mounds upon mounds of scientific evidence. They want to teach creationism as an "alternative" to science, which they think is "just another theory."

That is alarming! Presumably, their next step is to replace chemistry with alchemy and the mixing of "magic potions," and astronomy with "astrology," and algebra with tarot cards... These people want to sabotage the education of our children!!! There it is, the assault of FAITH on children's minds...

loco

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2007, 11:48:57 AM »
SUSPENSION OF REASON


Yeah, that's what causes a person to justify killing a nation which would mean killing children.

OzmO,
You do realize that columbusdude82 is saying your faith in your inner god is a SUSPENSION OF REASON.

You are agreeing with him as if he believed as you do.  To columbusdude82, you are no better than me.  What's keeping your inner god from sending a little voice in your head telling you to kill your children.


Loco, the next time you pass by a child, let's say 7 years old, imagine taking a sharp knife and cutting that child's throat and watching the child bleed to death right before your eyes.  Imagine the sound of skin breaking ,imagine the scream, imagine the look on the mothers face.



Then try and tell me this is what GOD ordered for an entire nation of children


This right here shows that you are one sick individual.  ;)

My faith in the Bible makes it less likely for me to do something like that as I believe only in what is written in the Bible and not in following my heart or listening to voices in my head that come from "the god that is in me."

columbusdude82

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2007, 12:16:35 PM »
loco, if OzmO suffers from the SUSPENSION OF REASON, you suffer from both that and related syndrome, the SUSPENSION OF HUMILITY.

You presume to say, with no evidence whatsoever, that your god is right, that your book is right, and that the others are false. You presume to say that when God speaks to the Hebrews, it's God speaking, and when God speaks to the Muslims, it's not God speaking. Why? Because you say so.

Why do you say so? Because you know it's true.

Why do you know it's true? Because you said so.

Yours is a circular logic that doesn't bother with anything as base as evidence...

loco

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2007, 12:36:16 PM »
loco, if OzmO suffers from the SUSPENSION OF REASON, you suffer from both that and related syndrome, the SUSPENSION OF HUMILITY.

You presume to say, with no evidence whatsoever, that your god is right, that your book is right, and that the others are false. You presume to say that when God speaks to the Hebrews, it's God speaking, and when God speaks to the Muslims, it's not God speaking. Why? Because you say so.

Why do you say so? Because you know it's true.

Why do you know it's true? Because you said so.

Yours is a circular logic that doesn't bother with anything as base as evidence...

You said it yourself:

I know that the Book of Mormon is a clear forgery, and the Koran is a plagiarism of the previous two monotheisms

columbusdude82

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2007, 01:33:18 PM »
Yes, I know that because I don't believe in magic. You want your preferred stories of magic to be true, but everyone else's to be false.

OzmO

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2007, 03:46:23 PM »
OzmO,
You do realize that columbusdude82 is saying your faith in your inner god is a SUSPENSION OF REASON.

You are agreeing with him as if he believed as you do.  To columbusdude82, you are no better than me.  What's keeping your inner god from sending a little voice in your head telling you to kill your children.


No.  What I'm telling you is that your belief the Bible is the 100% Word of God in the face of God ordering the death of children is a suspension of reason.

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This right here shows that you are one sick individual.  Wink

My faith in the Bible makes it less likely for me to do something like that as I believe only in what is written in the Bible and not in following my heart or listening to voices in my head that come from "the god that is in me."

Once again we are back to the part where you are avoiding the basis of the whole debate:

GOD ordered children to be slaughtered.  I outlined the fact of what you are avoiding so you don't fall back on your "bad things happen in life" routine or it happened once and only once as if that makes it all ok.

You have made excuses, tried to mis-direct the focus etc...   but at the end of the day, he, GOD, in the OT ordered men to slaughter children.

beatmaster

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2007, 04:28:05 PM »


bible, now that's some story i tell ya, damn.... noe was the best
are you delusional?

columbusdude82

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #67 on: August 09, 2007, 06:00:55 PM »

bible, now that's some story i tell ya, damn.... noe was the best

Oh you Frenchies... it's NOAH ;)

Ca va alors?

beatmaster

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #68 on: August 09, 2007, 06:15:10 PM »
Oh you Frenchies... it's NOAH ;)

Ca va alors?

tabarnak..... oops sorry english...damn, forgot about that one ..... NOAH!

what about adam and eve....... now that was true ::)
are you delusional?

columbusdude82

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #69 on: August 09, 2007, 06:23:13 PM »
beatmaster, don't question the Bible or God will FVCKIN KILL YOU!!!

Says so right there in the Bible ;)

beatmaster

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #70 on: August 09, 2007, 06:33:11 PM »

and that snake............. serious all true stories

god

A god is a being created by humans and given supernatural powers or attributes such as immortality, omniscience, telekinesis, and invisibility. These creations serve many purposes, such as imaginary protection from enemies or explanations for the origin of such things as good and evil, fire and wind, or life and death.

Gods are often the central figures around which religions are built. It is often claimed that religion began in fear and superstition. The same might be said for gods.

Some religions maintain that there is just one God and that all the gods of all religions except theirs were created by human beings. Yet, everyone who believes in a god of some sort believes their god is real.

Since gods are supernatural, they exist outside the bounds and laws of space and time. They can possess any of an infinite array of magical powers. Hence, there is no way to prove or disprove their reality. One might say: If gods exist, anything goes!
are you delusional?

columbusdude82

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #71 on: August 09, 2007, 06:39:41 PM »
loco will be around soon enough to tell you about the unbearable suffering that awaits you ;)

beatmaster

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #72 on: August 09, 2007, 06:48:15 PM »
loco will be around soon enough to tell you about the unbearable suffering that awaits you ;)

he can't........ because god will forgive me  ;D

are you delusional?

columbusdude82

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #73 on: August 09, 2007, 06:55:00 PM »
Not loco's god. That's one ANGRY FUCKER!!! He kills little babies for fun!

beatmaster

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Re: Attitudes Toward the Bible
« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2007, 07:16:26 PM »
Not loco's god. That's one ANGRY FUCKER!!! He kills little babies for fun!

damn...........  :-[

are you delusional?