Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: mrsirjojo on March 13, 2007, 02:34:08 PM
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Dan and Bob,
I realize that the last thing you want to to on your show is challenge something that any of your big-name guests say, particularly if it's not bodybuilding related, but I think someone should point out that the backstory of the Bret Hart and Vince McMahon debacle on that fateful day requires someone to stand up for Hart...or at the very least, to point out that the events of that day are not as cut and dried as implied by Triple H on your show. It's easy to say that Vince was the boss, Bret was his employee, and Bret should have just accepted his curtain call as McMahon told him to do. But there are several things Triple H did not mention on your show when painting the story so simply.
For example, Vince was the one asking Bret to leave the WWF since he couldn't afford to honor the contract Bret had recently signed. Bret could have forced Vince into insolvency, but chose instead to leave for the WCW, as suggested to him by Vince.
Also, Bret has "reasonable creative control" as a stipulation in his contract. He was willing to lose to anyone else, other than Shawn Michaels, and anywhere other than Canada, which is a small market compared to the US. Hart's refusal to lose in Canada was not just about ego, or his own heroic status in Canada. Part of Shawn Michael's recent anti-Hart campaign was also to smear Canada as a whole, and Hart did not want to let down his compatriots. Bob, would you, as an American Gladiator, and in character, have accepted your boss telling you to defame America, Italy, or New York, after he had asked you to resign, and after you had agreed to do so as a favor to him? It seems to me Vince owed it to Bret to meet him halfway, regarding how he lost that belt.
I'm not some die-hard wrestling fan, but I am a working stiff, like many of the guys on Getbig, and I do appreciate justice. What went down that day was all much more complicated than Vince being the boss and Bret being his employee. I realize Wikipedia is not the bastion of ultimate truth, but both sides of the whole story are there for the reading if you're interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Screwjob
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Dan and Bob,
I realize that the last thing you want to to on your show is challenge something that any of your big-name guests say, particularly if it's not bodybuilding related, but I think someone should point out that the backstory of the Bret Hart and Vince McMahon debacle on that fateful day requires someone to stand up for Hart...or at the very least, to point out that the events of that day are not as cut and dried as implied by Triple H on your show. It's easy to say that Vince was the boss, Bret was his employee, and Bret should have just accepted his curtain call as McMahon told him to do. But there are several things Triple H did not mention on your show when painting the story so simply.
For example, Vince was the one asking Bret to leave the WWF since he couldn't afford to honor the contract Bret had recently signed. Bret could have forced Vince into insolvency, but chose instead to leave for the WCW, as suggested to him by Vince.
Also, Bret has "reasonable creative control" as a stipulation in his contract. He was willing to lose to anyone else, other than Shawn Michaels, and anywhere other than Canada, which is a small market compared to the US. Hart's refusal to lose in Canada was not just about ego, or his own heroic status in Canada. Part of Shawn Michael's recent anti-Hart campaign was also to smear Canada as a whole, and Hart did not want to let down his compatriots. Bob, would you, as an American Gladiator, and in character, have accepted your boss telling you to defame America, Italy, or New York, after he had asked you to resign, and after you had agreed to do so as a favor to him? It seems to me Vince owed it to Bret to meet him halfway, regarding how he lost that belt.
I'm not some die-hard wrestling fan, but I am a working stiff, like many of the guys on Getbig, and I do appreciate justice. What went down that day was all much more complicated than Vince being the boss and Bret being his employee. I realize Wikipedia is not the bastion of ultimate truth, but both sides of the whole story are there for the reading if you're interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Screwjob
Well, that's why Bret knocked Vince the fcuk out. :)
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Well said MrSirjojo. Bret was screwed and anywhere else especially this country, people would be crying foul, calling lawyers, calling the friggin ACLU, calling that ass-clown Jessie Jackson or crackhead Al Sharpton, etc,etc.....Vince knew exactly what he was doing and the impact it would have especially being in Canada.....I've meet Bret a couple of times and seems like a nice guy....total shame, he was never the same after that
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I can appreciate where you're coming from, but the bottom line is, as a professional wrestler you are employed as an entertainer/ wrestler and follow a story line as a particular character.
Bret took being the "champ" too seriously, and forgot that is was just a role...even under his own name. The "Hitman" character was just that...a role.
As a paid employee of the WWE, you are expected to perform and follow a scripted outline of a match/ series of matches against an opponent. PERIOD.
Even in your post, you ask me if I would willfully accept "defaming America, etc...." Bro...IT'S A SHOW, YOU'RE PLAYING A PART..IT'S NOT REAL.
As HHH said..it's no different than playing a role in a movie or TV series and being told that your character is going to turn on his friends.....as the actor not wanting to do it for fear of what his fans may think of him.
Bret Hart got caught up with his character and blured the line between make believe and reality...
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I once saw someone climb into the ring and attack an oppenent while the ref was being distracted!
I demand this outrage to be addressed! As a working man, who takes his job seriously, I feel the need to address this injustice.
I mean, everyone could see it on TV. That's not fair!
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As a paid employee of the WWE, you are expected to perform and follow a scripted outline of a match/ series of matches against an opponent. PERIOD.
Even in your post, you ask me if I would willfully accept "defaming America, etc...." Bro...IT'S A SHOW, YOU'RE PLAYING A PART..IT'S NOT REAL.
As HHH said..it's no different than playing a role in a movie or TV series and being told that your character is going to turn on his friends.....as the actor not wanting to do it for fear of what his fans may think of him.
I know it's a show Bob. But as an aside, even though we all know it's not real, did you notice how Triple H danced around using the word "fake", almost as if he's contractually obligated not to?
Anyway, I wasn't trying to say Bret wasn't an actor of sorts under the employ of a producer/director, which he certainly was...what I was saying was that, given the backstory, a boss owed his employee more than what he gave him, particularly in view of what his employee was doing for him behind the scenes, and that Triple H made no mention of that. Instead he painted Bret as a spoiled, whiny, megalomaniac.
Perhaps this is a better analogy...If American Gladiators had laid you off after you gave them everything, injuries, overtime, huge rating, the works....wouldn't you be angry if your boss didn't give you a going away party but instead cleared out your locker and changed the lock?
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I know it's a show Bob. But as an aside, even though we all know it's not real, did you notice how Triple H danced around using the word "fake", almost as if he's contractually obligated not to?
Anyway, I wasn't trying to say Bret wasn't an actor of sorts under the employ of a producer/director, which he certainly was...what I was saying was that, given the backstory, a boss owed his employee more than what he gave him, particularly in view of what his employee was doing for him behind the scenes, and that Triple H made no mention of that. Instead he painted Bret as a spoiled, whiny, megalomaniac.
Perhaps this is a better analogy...If American Gladiators had laid you off after you gave them everything, injuries, overtime, huge rating, the works....wouldn't you be angry if your boss didn't give you a going away party but instead cleared out your locker and changed the lock?
there are two sides to every story...I'm sure Vince has his own.
The WWE is big business, and threy run it very professionally. Triple H, and any pro wrestler past and present....take HUGE offense to the word "fake", and it is a unwritten rule that they dont use it when referring to the sports entertainment industry of wrestling.
Triple H knew Bret Hart much more than we do...maybe he referred to him as what you painted because thats what he was....the bottom line is, a role is a role...you do what it calls for whether you agree with it or not from your personal perspective...
BTW....your AG analogy wouldn't be the best, as the way it went down was closer to the latter than the going away party....that's showbiz!
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I can appreciate where you're coming from, but the bottom line is, as a professional wrestler you are employed as an entertainer/ wrestler and follow a story line as a particular character.
Bret took being the "champ" too seriously, and forgot that is was just a role...even under his own name. The "Hitman" character was just that...a role.
As a paid employee of the WWE, you are expected to perform and follow a scripted outline of a match/ series of matches against an opponent. PERIOD.
Even in your post, you ask me if I would willfully accept "defaming America, etc...." Bro...IT'S A SHOW, YOU'RE PLAYING A PART..IT'S NOT REAL.
As HHH said..it's no different than playing a role in a movie or TV series and being told that your character is going to turn on his friends.....as the actor not wanting to do it for fear of what his fans may think of him.
Bret Hart got caught up with his character and blured the line between make believe and reality...
Don't forget that Bret & Shawn hated eachother in real life too. Either way Bret got the last laugh. In WCW he made 3.7 million per year in his 3 year stay there. Way more then he made with Vince.
PB
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the more I know about this story the more I feel that Bret was wrong and Vince was right. Bret loosing in CAndada would have and did generate so much heat for Shawn, it was about vince setting up the WWF for the future.
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the more I know about this story the more I feel that Bret was wrong and Vince was right. Bret loosing in CAndada would have and did generate so much heat for Shawn, it was about vince setting up the WWF for the future.
Consider this then:
Regarding McMahon
"The documentary Hitman Hart: Wrestling with Shadows included footage of McMahon's conversations with Hart in which he affirmed the planned disqualification finish and expressed determination for Hart to exit "the right way" and as amicably as possible — McMahon did not know that the conversation was being filmed."
Regarding Triple H's potential bias and credibility:
"In the hallway outside the dressing-rooms, Bret Hart's wife confronted Triple H and others angrily. Shawn Michaels and Triple H were confronted and assailed by angry fans outside the Molson Center Arena and at the lobby in the hotel."
"Despite the television shows and considerable antagonism from the fans, both Michaels and Triple H would continue to deny any knowledge or involvement in the screwjob for several years when discussing the episode in real-life interviews."
As I said to Bob, I know these men are actors. However, the incident doesn't reflect well on McMahon as a person at all and as his son-in-law and someone who was harassed after the incident, I don't think we should necessarily take what Triple H says at face value.
Moreover, to say that "business is business", or "that's showbiz" is to say that people should not be held accountable for reprehensible behavior, so long as they are doing it to make, or keep, a buck.
There have been plenty of BBs who have been treated similarly over the years, by either promoters or the you-know-who family. I doubt anyone says "it's just business" when referring to those incidents, assuming the you-know-who family is in earshot.
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I can appreciate where you're coming from, but the bottom line is, as a professional wrestler you are employed as an entertainer/ wrestler and follow a story line as a particular character.
Bret took being the "champ" too seriously, and forgot that is was just a role...even under his own name. The "Hitman" character was just that...a role.
As a paid employee of the WWE, you are expected to perform and follow a scripted outline of a match/ series of matches against an opponent. PERIOD.
Even in your post, you ask me if I would willfully accept "defaming America, etc...." Bro...IT'S A SHOW, YOU'RE PLAYING A PART..IT'S NOT REAL.
As HHH said..it's no different than playing a role in a movie or TV series and being told that your character is going to turn on his friends.....as the actor not wanting to do it for fear of what his fans may think of him.
Bret Hart got caught up with his character and blured the line between make believe and reality...
Unfortunately, Chick, I have to highly disagree with you on this.
As a former wrestler myself, I know that the wrestling name and persona you chose is the one that you branded with for life. Its not the same as a character in a movie.
The purpose of Vince doing that to Bret Hart was to essentially "screw him" and screw him very badly in all ways
1. He made him lose the title in his native country-big no no
2. He made him lose the title by being beat by his own finishing move- bigger no no
Chick, a wrestling character is not the same as a movie character. Its a lot different and even if it was scripted...that wasn't the script Bret got or he would have never done it. There are cases in history where promoters have been killed by wrestlers for disrespecting their wrestling persona.
A wrestling persona is basically a man's life work. Screw with that and bad things can happen. That's why Vince got knocked out and that's why everyone involved with that show had to get out of Canada as soon as possible.
Bret Hart is a Canadian Hero and that's why it happenned.
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I can't believe Balboa jobbed to Mason "The Lion" Dixon. I heard Stallone had reasonable creative control. What a screwjob!
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Vince cheated so many of these guys, it's ridiculous. Don't expect Dwayne johnson a.k.a The Rock to come back to wrestling anytime soon. I'm sure the ratings for smack down were second to none in that time slot when The Rock was with WWE. As long as Vince is cashing in, who gives a fcuk, right? ::)
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well stone cold beat up mcmahon later so its all good
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Bret Hart got SCREWED!!!!!!!!
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Vince cheated so many of these guys, it's ridiculous. Don't expect Dwayne johnson a.k.a The Rock to come back to wrestling anytime soon. I'm sure the ratings for smack down were second to none in that time slot when The Rock was with WWE. As long as Vince is cashing in, who gives a fcuk, right? ::)
How did he cheat anyone? If you are a wwe performer you make shit loads more then any bodybuilder or MMA guy, you have fame and girls beyond your wildest dreams and if you are smart you can retire at 40 and live the good life.
If that's being cheated then Vince can cheat me all he wants!
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As a former wrestler myself, I know that the wrestling name and persona you chose is the one that you branded with for life.
Must... resist... wisecrack...
;D
Anywho, Bob's position on this should surprise no one. Like Alberto Gonzales - only with thicker traps - he has made a prosperous career as an enforcer for his authoritarian bosses. For both men, the "natural" supremacy of entrenched institutional power is a value so internalized as to be beyond rational analysis. Consequently, they are quite sincere - possibly even affectionate - in their licking of the boots that have stamped on the throats of so many of their countrymen. [Bob's "countrymen" being other IFBB pros, in this case.]
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How did he cheat anyone? If you are a wwe performer you make shit loads more then any bodybuilder or MMA guy, you have fame and girls beyond your wildest dreams and if you are smart you can retire at 40 and live the good life.
If that's being cheated then Vince can cheat me all he wants!
Vince made billions off these guys. Dwayne jonhson was very popular, but he figured 4million a year he was making was pocket change, and now that he's making it big as an actor, he couldn't be more happy. So many things going on in wrestling, I bet you there were a lot more guys that had issues with Vince. He's known to be a son of a bitch
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Vince made billions off these guys. Dwayne jonhson was very popular, but he figured 4million a year he was making was pocket change, and now that he's making it big as an actor, he couldn't be more happy. So many things going on in wrestling, I bet you there were a lot more guys that had issues with Vince. He's known to be a son of a bitch
So The Rock made 4 million a year and used it to launch his career as an actor. So tell me how he got screwed again?
Vince puts out his own money and took a risk by building the WWF into a national corporation form a territorial one. He put wrestling on the map and brought in billions of dollars, I wasn't aware that you weren't allowed to make money off your own business. I din't realize that he was running a non-profit charity ::)
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Vince cheated so many of these guys, it's ridiculous. Don't expect Dwayne johnson a.k.a The Rock to come back to wrestling anytime soon. I'm sure the ratings for smack down were second to none in that time slot when The Rock was with WWE. As long as Vince is cashing in, who gives a fcuk, right? ::)
the rock was on monday...
he didnt wrestle...but he didnt look like a disgruntled employee either..
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For every person on here that called himself a working stiff, you should know the deal, the boss owes us nothing, and really, they do not give a a sh!t about us, you can walk out of your job tomorrow and no one will care, will be replaced by lunch, and trust me, I am not a boss, as much as it sucks for these pro wrestlers getting "screwed", they chose this career, they know the risks and outcomes, if they don't like it, chose to do something else.
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For every person on here that called himself a working stiff, you should know the deal, the boss owes us nothing, and really, they do not give a a sh!t about us, you can walk out of your job tomorrow and no one will care, will be replaced by lunch, and trust me, I am not a boss, as much as it sucks for these pro wrestlers getting "screwed", they chose this career, they know the risks and outcomes, if they don't like it, chose to do something else.
hi vince mcmahon, dont u have the balls to open a real account?
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For every person on here that called himself a working stiff, you should know the deal, the boss owes us nothing, and really, they do not give a a sh!t about us, you can walk out of your job tomorrow and no one will care, will be replaced by lunch, and trust me, I am not a boss, as much as it sucks for these pro wrestlers getting "screwed", they chose this career, they know the risks and outcomes, if they don't like it, chose to do something else.
Exactly. And if you think being paid millions to wrestle is getting screwed I'd like you to tell that to a factory worker getting 10 bucks an hour
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the rock was on monday...
he didnt wrestle...but he didnt look like a disgruntled employee either..
lol....He was vince's biggest superstar, I'm sure he received the red carpet treatment when he was wrestling. But not everybody at WWE is a dwayne johnson; Vince knows it, HHH knows it. Vince and Hulk Hogan were not the best buddies either.
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lol....He was vince's biggest superstar, I'm sure he received the red carpet treatment when he was wrestling. But not everybody at WWE is a dwayne johnson; Vince knows it, HHH knows it. Vince and Hulk Hogan were not the best buddies either.
So you tell me who has been "screwed" by Vince then?
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So The Rock made 4 million a year and used it to launch his career as an actor. So tell me how he got screwed again?
Vince puts out his own money and took a risk by building the WWF into a national corporation form a territorial one. He put wrestling on the map and brought in billions of dollars, I wasn't aware that you weren't allowed to make money off your own business. I din't realize that he was running a non-profit charity ::)
I never said The Rock got screwed. Not everybody at WWE is a super star. Vince wouldn't screw his superstars, he's not stupid; those guys made him billions, I thought the rock was making way more than just over $4 million giving the fact that his presence alone brought huge ratings. If vince is a billionaire, then his superstar must have millions ::)
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Firstly, to be clear, the Rock's first movie was produced by the WWE while he was under contract to them. No doubt he was paid for the film, but he now makes them on his own, without the WWE's backing. WWE also produced The Marine with John Cena, and See No Evil with Kane. This isn't really relevant though.
Whether or not you make a million, or 10 dollars an hour is not relevant to whether or not you have been screwed. Imagine if your government came to your nice house, took all your possessions but left you with enough to eat. Would you like it if they said..."You think you have it bad..In Africa, they don't even have food!"
No one was talking about being screwed out of money, the issue was whether or not an employer screwed over an employee after they had reached an agreement.
Vince could have told Bret that he wasn't going to let him wrestle, since he refused to lose on Vince's terms, and he could have then sued Bret for breach of contract.
Likewise, Bret could have lost the match Vince's way, but forced Vince to pay him his salary and keep him in the WWE, as stipulated in his new contract. But Bret did not take Vince to court, asking instead that he go out on his terms. The two had an off the books understanding. Then Vince broke that promise. Triple H made no mention of this broken promise.
To reiterate...the double cross against Bret was not part of the wrestling "story". It was a real case of an employer backstabbing his employee. That should not be overlooked just because "showbiz" is often harsh. Boxing is harsh too, but sucker punching your opponent after a match is not part of boxing. Vince lied to, and betrayed, Bret, outside the realm of wrestling, even though the betrayal was publicly displayed in the ring.
Also, this whole wrestling topic, as many of you must realize, is an argument by proxy of sorts, relating to the McMahons of bodybuilding.
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Firstly, to be clear, the Rock's first movie was produced by the WWE while he was under contract to them. No doubt he was paid for the film, but he now makes them on his own, without the WWE's backing. WWE also produced The Marine with John Cena, and See No Evil with Kane. This isn't really relevant though.
Whether or not you make a million, or 10 dollars an hour is not relevant to whether or not you have been screwed. Imagine if your government came to your nice house, took all your possessions but left you with enough to eat. Would you like it if they said..."You think you have it bad..In Africa, they don't even have food!"
No one was talking about being screwed out of money, the issue was whether or not an employer screwed over an employee after they had reached an agreement.
Vince could have told Bret that he wasn't going to let him wrestle, since he refused to lose on Vince's terms, and he could have then sued Bret for breach of contract.
Bret could also have forced Vince to pay him his salary, as stipulated in his new contract. But Bret did not take Vince to court, and Vince promised Bret he would allow him to go out his way. Then he broke that promise.
To reiterate...the double cross against Bret was not part of the wrestling "story". It was a real case of an employer backstabbing his employee. That should not be overlooked just because "showbiz" is often harsh. Boxing is harsh to, but sucker punching your opponent after a match is not part of boxing. Vince lied to, and betrayed, Bret, outside the realm of wrestling, even though the betrayal was publicly displayed in the ring.
Also, this whole wrestling topic, as many of you must realize, is an argument by proxy of sorts, relating to the McMahons of bodybuilding.
Bret Screwed Bret by being delusional and blurring the lines of fantasy and reality.
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Must... resist... wisecrack...
;D
Anywho, Bob's position on this should surprise no one. Like Alberto Gonzales - only with thicker traps - he has made a prosperous career as an enforcer for his authoritarian bosses. For both men, the "natural" supremacy of entrenched institutional power is a value so internalized as to be beyond rational analysis. Consequently, they are quite sincere - possibly even affectionate - in their licking of the boots that have stamped on the throats of so many of their countrymen. [Bob's "countrymen" being other IFBB pros, in this case.]
sounds great.....btw, I'm not employed by Vince McMahon or the WWE. "rational analysis" would support exactly what I said...there are two sides to every story, Triple H knows better than we do, what actually went on...wrestling is a job where you are paid to play a role and a persona.
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sounds great.....btw, I'm not employed by Vince McMahon or the WWE. "rational analysis" would support exactly what I said...there are two sides to every story, Triple H knows better than we do, what actually went on...wrestling is a job where you are paid to play a role and a persona.
Bob, there's a difference between Triple H knowing better than we do about what went on, and Triple H honestly recounting what went on. You are simultaneously telling us there are two sides to a story, and asking us to take one man's side of what went down. Do you see what I'm saying?
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sounds great.....btw, I'm not employed by Vince McMahon or the WWE. "rational analysis" would support exactly what I said...there are two sides to every story, Triple H knows better than we do, what actually went on...wrestling is a job where you are paid to play a role and a persona.
well said
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Bob, there's a difference between Triple H knowing better than we do about what went on, and Triple H honestly recounting what went on. You are simultaneously telling us there are two sides to a story, and asking us to take one man's side of what went down. Do you see what I'm saying?
Well, you automatically assume that Bret got screwed...I take that as you believing Bret's version.
Take who ever's side you want...it doesn't change the facts that Bret got caught up in his role and took it too seriously.
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i completely forgot Bob was in the american gladiators. Bob, that seemed like a popular show back in the day. Did it pay pretty decent?
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I can appreciate where you're coming from, but the bottom line is, as a professional wrestler you are employed as an entertainer/ wrestler and follow a story line as a particular character.
Bret took being the "champ" too seriously, and forgot that is was just a role...even under his own name. The "Hitman" character was just that...a role.
As a paid employee of the WWE, you are expected to perform and follow a scripted outline of a match/ series of matches against an opponent. PERIOD.
Even in your post, you ask me if I would willfully accept "defaming America, etc...." Bro...IT'S A SHOW, YOU'RE PLAYING A PART..IT'S NOT REAL.
As HHH said..it's no different than playing a role in a movie or TV series and being told that your character is going to turn on his friends.....as the actor not wanting to do it for fear of what his fans may think of him.
Bret Hart got caught up with his character and blured the line between make believe and reality...
You are dead wrong Chick, the seriousness that he showed made him one of the greats of all time! Thats why Arnold is great, Thats why many rockstars and movie stars are great, they take it to the limit.
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wrestling is a job where you are paid to play a role and a persona.
Yes, and sewing sneakers in a Nike factory in Indonesia is a job where you are paid 50 cents a day to sew, sew, sew for 16 hours straight until they unlock the door to let you go home. I can just picture you as the shop foreman with your arms folded across your well-developed chest, impassive as a Turkish executioner, saying "You knew what the conditions were when you took this job." :)
Now obviously, Bret Hart being punished for his disobedience in leaving for another company [you know how that goes, Bob ;) ] by being forced to humiliate himself in front of his countrymen isn't on the same level of exploitation. But the boot-on-throat spirit of the gesture is identical.
As is a 220 nights a year wrestling schedule with no time off for injuries, I might add. And while Mr. Levesque (one of your most articulate guests ever, BTW) isn't going to call that what it is - especially now that he's managed the leap from top field hand to marrying into the plantation house - the rest of us are still at liberty to denounce McMahon as a ruthless scumbag.
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Well, you automatically assume that Bret got screwed...I take that as you believing Bret's version.
Take who ever's side you want...it doesn't change the facts that Bret got caught up in his role and took it too seriously.
Here are the three indisputable facts then:
1) Bret Hart initially refused to honor his employer's request.
2) Bret Hart later accepted his boss' request with certain stipulations.
3) His boss then broke that promise in front of millions.
BTW, delusional would be if Bret Hart believed he was wrestling for real, and that he was his character. Just because he was an actor doesn't mean he can't be a real hero to his fans. In short, it is not delusional to say "no" to your boss, just a dismissable offense.
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Here are the three indisputable facts then:
1) Bret Hart initially refused to honor his employer's request.2) Bret Hart later accepted his boss' request with certain stipulations.
3) His boss then broke that promise in front of millions.
BTW, delusional would be if Bret Hart believed he was wrestling for real, and that he was his character. Just because he was an actor doesn't mean he can't be a real hero to his fans. In short, it is not delusional to say "no" to your boss, just a dismissable offense.
you can stop your argument right at 1....
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you can stop your argument right at 1....
Why do I have the feeling that you'd have supported Mussolini if you'd been living in the old country back in the Thirties? :)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ee/Benito_Mussolini_1.jpg/160px-Benito_Mussolini_1.jpg)
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Why do I have the feeling that you'd have supported Mussolini if you'd been living in the old country back in the Thirties? :)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ee/Benito_Mussolini_1.jpg/160px-Benito_Mussolini_1.jpg)
Because you're weird?
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1) Bret Hart initially refused to honor his employer's request.
you can stop your argument right at 1....
Then let me back it up the sequence of events by one fact then, and we'll stop the argument there instead...
0) Vince McMahon initially refused to honor his contract to Bret Hart.
1) Bret Hart initially refused to honor his employer's request.
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Unfortunately, Chick, I have to highly disagree with you on this.
As a former wrestler myself,
ROFL
i stopped reading here.... hahahahahahaahahahaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa hahahahahahahahaha
Ha hahahahahahahahaha ahaha aah ahaahahaha.
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i stopped reading here.... hahahahahahaahahahaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa hahahahahahahahaha
That's it... I can't resist any more. ;D
Yeah, what was your "character" Vince?
Manboob?
The Ebony Fuckwit?
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Well, you automatically assume that Bret got screwed...I take that as you believing Bret's version.
Take who ever's side you want...it doesn't change the facts that Bret got caught up in his role and took it too seriously.
I understand you Bob, but you forget that Bret's "role" is his life, his career, his paycheck. Damaging someone's image like that is pretty serious. I don't think anyone in his position would have acted differently because in the end you end up looking bad on national television, worldwide, and people remember things such as that. That could change how people look at you in the sport, how well you do in the future/how much you get paid also. His career was never the same after that point in time.
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I understand you Bob, but you forget that Bret's "role" is his life, his career, his paycheck. Damaging someone's image like that is pretty serious. I don't think anyone in his position would have acted differently because in the end you end up looking bad on national television, worldwide, and people remember things such as that. That could change how people look at you in the sport, how well you do in the future/how much you get paid also. His career was never the same after that point in time.
No...his role was whatever the storyline dictated it was...hero one month, heel the next. What do you mean "damaging someones image like that..."?
IT'S A ROLE....IT'S MAKE BELIEVE ...LIKE AN ACTOR PLAYING THE VILLIAN
Can't spell it out any easier....
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No...his role was whatever the storyline dictated it was...hero one month, heel the next. What do you mean "damaging someones image like that..."?
IT'S A ROLE....IT'S MAKE BELIEVE ...LIKE AN ACTOR PLAYING THE VILLIAN
Can't spell it out any easier....
These people are obviously morons Chick
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IT'S A ROLE....IT'S MAKE BELIEVE
We can discuss your Masters World Champion title later, Bob. ;D
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No...his role was whatever the storyline dictated it was...hero one month, heel the next. What do you mean "damaging someones image like that..."?
IT'S A ROLE....IT'S MAKE BELIEVE ...LIKE AN ACTOR PLAYING THE VILLIAN
Can't spell it out any easier....
In this context, I agree with Bob. Losing his belt, even in Canada, would have been part of a role he played as an actor. That would have been no different than Tom Cruise voluntarily playing a villain against type in Collateral.
But it's the agreed upon script not being followed that I'm talking about, an issue outside of wrestling. That has nothing to do with the shenanigans they do in character except that Vince parlayed those events into creating the evil Vince McMahon character shortly thereafter.
See, Bret let Vince off the hook, regarding his contract, and in return, Vince was supposed to allow Bret creative control regarding how he went out. That was the agreement. But Vince broke that agreement, live on tv.
It would be like Russell Crowe attending the premier of Gladiator only to dicover the director and editors had entirely re-worked the scenes to make Maximus the villain i.e. he may be an actor, but it is not what he signed up to do.
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It would be like Russell Crowe attending the premier of Gladiator only to dicover the director and editors had entirely re-worked the scenes to make Maximus the villain
Interestingly, when Claude Rains signed up to do Casabalanca, the script didn't end with him becoming one of the good guys. So naturally, he was very pleasantly surprised in the end.
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Interestingly, when Claude Rains signed up to do Casabalanca, the script didn't end with him becoming one of the good guys. So naturally, he was very pleasantly surprised in the end.
And back then actors worked for studios, the way wrestlers now work for an organization. So it was probably in Rain's contract that the studio owned the footage and could edit him into a pedophile if they so chose.
I haven't seen Bret's contract, but no one is disputing that it gave him some amount of creative control, and no one is disputing that he and McMahon had a verbal agreement before that night, an agreement that Vince broke, with the help of Shawn Michaels. No one said anything about about Bret Michaels, in character, smacking Bret over the head with a steel chair and "stealing the belt". To use the tactic employed by some...What happened in the ring was outside the realm of wrestling. PERIOD.
I don't think xpac2 realizes that, even though these men are actors, they have contracts in the real world that supersede their scripted behavior. How ironic that it is xpac2 who seems incapable of separating reality and fantasy, not the guys defending the "wrestler".
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I don't think xpac2 realizes that, even though these men are actors, they have contracts in the real world that supersede their scripted behavior. How ironic that it is xpac2 who seems incapable of separating reality and fantasy, not the guys defending the "wrestler".
It's real to me Dammit!
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It's real to me Dammit!
Has there ever been a bigger virgin than the guy in that vid?
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Dan18
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Here are the three indisputable facts then:
1) Bret Hart initially refused to honor his employer's request.
2) Bret Hart later accepted his boss' request with certain stipulations.
3) His boss then broke that promise in front of millions.
BTW, delusional would be if Bret Hart believed he was wrestling for real, and that he was his character. Just because he was an actor doesn't mean he can't be a real hero to his fans. In short, it is not delusional to say "no" to your boss, just a dismissable offense.
Everyone seems to be forgetting one minor event that took place elsewhere during all of the WWF goings on that lead to Vince changing everything...
At WCW Eric Bischoff was leaking the word that the WWF Champion was coming over to WCW... as soon as that leaked and got back to Vince there was no way he could let Bret leave as the Champ. So ultimately Bishoff screwed Bret for media buzz.
Chick... weren't you the American Gladiator named BLUTO or was it FLOUNDER?
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Chick... weren't you the American Gladiator named BLUTO or was it FLOUNDER?
(http://www.iwnation.com/Forums/uploads/post-1-1078111378.jpg)
;D
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Everyone seems to be forgetting one minor event that took place elsewhere during all of the WWF goings on that lead to Vince changing everything...
At WCW Eric Bischoff was leaking the word that the WWF Champion was coming over to WCW... as soon as that leaked and got back to Vince there was no way he could let Bret leave as the Champ. So ultimately Bishoff screwed Bret for media buzz.
Chick... weren't you the American Gladiator named BLUTO or was it FLOUNDER?
Close...it was originally "Loosen", but they changed it to "Titan" at the last minute..!
Don't you have some lame-ass booth workers to fire?
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As a paid employee of the WWE, you are expected to perform and follow a scripted outline of a match/ series of matches against an opponent. PERIOD.
That's what worries me about Triple H's and your push to make the IFBB more like the WWE. Replace the WWE with IFBB in the quote above, and you are then condoning bodybuilders purposely losing contests or accepting judging based on a popularity contest created solely to bring in larger audiences. I do agree that bodybuilding has become too freakish (especially on the female BB side) and needs to bring in more people outside of the hardcore BB fans. I don't think we should push for it to emulate the entertainment industry niche that is pro "wrestling".
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That's what worries me about Triple H's and your push to make the IFBB more like the WWE. Replace the WWE with IFBB in the quote above, and you are then condoning bodybuilders purposely losing contests or accepting judging based on a popularity contest created solely to bring in larger audiences. I do agree that bodybuilding has become too freakish (especially on the female BB side) and needs to bring in more people outside of the hardcore BB fans. I don't think we should push for it to emulate the entertainment industry niche that is pro "wrestling".
No need to worry, my push to bring up the entertainment value to pro BB, will in no way jeopardize the integrity of it still being a competition...neither one has to be compromised to compliment one another.
My new column in Flex magazine (Bobservations) details out some of my opinions on how this can be achieved...check it out.
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My new column in Flex magazine (Bobservations) details out some of my opinions on how this can be achieved...check it out.
I hope your recommendations are sound.
Otherwise you'll suffer Bobloquy!
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No need to worry, my push to bring up the entertainment value to pro BB, will in no way jeopardize the integrity of it still being a competition...neither one has to be compromised to compliment one another.
My new column in Flex magazine (Bobservations) details out some of my opinions on how this can be achieved...check it out.
Wow what an original idea... adding entertainment to bodybuilding. Maybe bodybuilders can have alter ego's like "Batman", "Iron Warrior"... oh wait a minute Vince already did that it was called the WBF, and just like the WWF it was "real" too.
Bobservations... HAHAHahahahahahaha, things that make you go Hmmmm. Go polish your belt.
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Everyone seems to be forgetting one minor event that took place elsewhere during all of the WWF goings on that lead to Vince changing everything...
At WCW Eric Bischoff was leaking the word that the WWF Champion was coming over to WCW... as soon as that leaked and got back to Vince there was no way he could let Bret leave as the Champ. So ultimately Bishoff screwed Bret for media buzz.
Chick... weren't you the American Gladiator named BLUTO or was it FLOUNDER?
The rumors had already begun to spread prior to Survivor Series '97 (as was evident by the sign and posters in the crowd). McMahon was caught between a rock and a hard place, as the main event for was Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels (HBK) for the WWF title.
McMahon knows that Hart won't do the match, if he has to lose the title to HBK. But, if Hart is still champion after the pay-per-view, Eric Bischoff and team WCW are going LIVE on Monday Nitro and, as early can they can get on the air, they'd announce that they just bought the WWF Champion. McMahon had already been embarrassed twice before in 1995: 1) Lex Luger's appearance on Nitro, the night after he was at WWF SummerSlam; 2) Madusa Micelli (aka Alundra Blayze) debuting on WCW's show, still wearing the WWF Women's championship belt, which she later threw in a trash can, ala Riddick Bowe.
There was no easy answer for the WWF owner; but one thing was certain: Come hell or high water, Bret Hart ain't leaving Survivor Series as World Wrestling Federation Champion, PERIOD!!!
What saved McMahon and, ultimately the World Wrestling Federation (now known as World Wrestling Entertainment) is that the following night on RAW, Jim Ross interviewed his boss on the situation. Rather than lie about it, McMahon actually told the truth. But, he did so, speaking "wrestling-ese", if you will.
He mentioned that there is a "time-honored tradition in the wresting business" that Bret Hart didn't follow. And, he agreed with some loyal WWF fans that "Bret Hart sold out!". McMahon continued, "...and, it's not a big deal, because I helped him do it." He stated that his responsibility was to the other wrestlers in his company.
The "time-honored tradition" (as explained by several now-defunct wrestling sites) is simply this: When you leave a federation to go to another one, you lose in a way that puts the other guy over. That's especially true if you happen to be a particular organization's world champion.
Though many fans were angry initially at McMahon, they can't deny the fruits that came of it:
- The "Mr. McMahon character,
- The development of "Stone Cold" Steve Austin
- The Austin-McMahon feud, which ultimately helped the WWF regain its place at the top wrestling company.
- The emergence of The Rock and Triple H
None of that would have happened, had Bret Hart simply followed the "time-honored tradition". To this day, wrestling fans are still split on the issue. Some feel that McMahon did the unforgivable and shafted the Hitman, causing a loss of much respect from certain wrestlers and fans; others feel that Hart should have just dropped the belt to Michaels at Survivor Series and been done with it, as his fan base would have followed him to WCW, anyway, with no incident and no controversy on which the WWF could build.
It's been nearly ten years since the "Survivor Series/Montreal Screwjob" went down. Yet, to this day, it's still a hot topic of discussion in sports-entertainment.
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No...his role was whatever the storyline dictated it was...hero one month, heel the next. What do you mean "damaging someones image like that..."?
IT'S A ROLE....IT'S MAKE BELIEVE ...LIKE AN ACTOR PLAYING THE VILLIAN
Can't spell it out any easier....
Dude, spell it out like it was. They tagged him out earlier than he was supposed to. They did it behinjd his back! Not to mention fella, that the Hart FAMILY helped put Vince and his DAD "see the silver spoon?" into Vince jrs mouth by doing good business for 30 yrs before that incident. Come on Chick, you're right in some respecets, but couldn't Vince have bended, and at least said it had to be lost in the USA? Would that have hurt pretty little Vince. WWF even KILLED OWEN HEART for Chisttt sakes while he was following the story line.
Wake up Chick!!!!
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See the above post...sums it up pretty good.
Bret was looking out for his own best interests, as Vince was loking out for his company's best interests...
Owen died in a tragic accident...it had nothing to do with anything else.
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Because you're weird?
lol thats funny shit bob! lol Bob is the iceman... cool under fire. monster stud...you debate very well.
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Dude, spell it out like it was. They tagged him out earlier than he was supposed to. They did it behinjd his back! Not to mention fella, that the Hart FAMILY helped put Vince and his DAD "see the silver spoon?" into Vince jrs mouth by doing good business for 30 yrs before that incident. Come on Chick, you're right in some respecets, but couldn't Vince have bended, and at least said it had to be lost in the USA? Would that have hurt pretty little Vince. WWF even KILLED OWEN HEART for Chisttt sakes while he was following the story line.
Wake up Chick!!!!
I explained it earlier. One more time, McMahon did NOT want WCW to buy his World Champion (or have Eric Bischoff brag that WCW had done so on Monday Nitro). That's exactly what would have happened had Bret Hart left Montreal with the title.
The main event was set. There was NO TURNING BACK!!! Hart had to lose the belt at Survivor Series, period.
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I explained it earlier. One more time, McMahon did NOT want WCW to buy his World Champion (or have Eric Bischoff brag that WCW had done so on Monday Nitro). That's exactly what would have happened had Bret Hart left Montreal with the title.
The main event was set. There was NO TURNING BACK!!! Hart had to lose the belt at Survivor Series, period.
that pretty much sums it all up right there. 100% fact. vince mcmahon and the WWE (wwf at the time) did what they did to save face in a hostile industry. WCW was winning the ratings war, this was a battle that the WWE won. bret hart wanted to save face at the end of his career with the WWE, but so did vince for the sake of his business.
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Vince McMahon behaves like a stooge on his shows. I agree with Vince Goodrum here. What is the test of truth here re who said what? There is none. So this is a waste of time debating.
Seems to me the IFBB should change its name to IFBBE to duplicate the entertainment aspect of the sport. Clearly some representatives in the IFBB are playing roles and following scripts.
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What is the test of truth here re who said what? There is none. So this is a waste of time debating.
audio recordings of some of the actual events as well as interviews with the various individuals that were involved...
other than that, there is no evidence ::)
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Don't forget that Bret & Shawn hated eachother in real life too. Either way Bret got the last laugh. In WCW he made 3.7 million per year in his 3 year stay there. Way more then he made with Vince.
PB
He also got another concussion by Goldberg which started his downward spiral... next thing you know... a stroke.
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I can appreciate where you're coming from, but the bottom line is, as a professional wrestler you are employed as an entertainer/ wrestler and follow a story line as a particular character.
Bret took being the "champ" too seriously, and forgot that is was just a role...even under his own name. The "Hitman" character was just that...a role.
As a paid employee of the WWE, you are expected to perform and follow a scripted outline of a match/ series of matches against an opponent. PERIOD.
Even in your post, you ask me if I would willfully accept "defaming America, etc...." Bro...IT'S A SHOW, YOU'RE PLAYING A PART..IT'S NOT REAL.
As HHH said..it's no different than playing a role in a movie or TV series and being told that your character is going to turn on his friends.....as the actor not wanting to do it for fear of what his fans may think of him.
Bret Hart got caught up with his character and blured the line between make believe and reality...
WTF?? Bob,are you suggesting that Pro Wrestling isn't real?.... :(.... :'( that sucks.
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And instead of being remembered for his matches, and all that he had accomplished as a wrester, he gets lumped with being remembered for being SCREWED by Vince Mcmahon and Shawn Michaels, in Canada
forever.
Thats damage. They messed with his reputation when he had done all he could as a wrestler to ensure some integrity. Being Brett Hart meant something. There are rules, and these people knew the rules which makes what they did worse.
Yes Brett was arrogant and all that but they all are. He didnt deserve what they did, and in light of him not being able to wrestle long enough afterwards to overcome it and create a new successful run due to Goldbergs kick to the head, he is stuck with it.
And Triple H knows how screwed he would ever be if he doesnt tow the line and this is a wrestling company that scripts every word their wrestlers say. Anything coming out of his mouth is suspect.
nuff said.
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Bret Hart just moved to Kona, HI. He was in the gym the other day. I didn't see him.
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I prefer to watch Jerry Springer over the wrestling. At least the fights on Springer are a bit more spontaneous and fair dinkum. I remember the time Stone Cold Steve Austin poured concrete into McMahon's convertible. It is all show business and no one knows what is real and what staged anymore. The result is that we don't believe anything anymore. Well, except for the 150,000,000 Americans under 100 IQ, these people believe everything they see on TV.
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Bret was looking out for his own best interests, as Vince was looking out for his company's best interests...
It's true that they were looking out for their own interests. That's every person's right. But if "looking out for one's own interests" entails breaking one's word, it shouldn't be passed off as "just business". It should be called what it is. A lowly act, and a betrayal. Didn't men used to be only as good as their word?
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I prefer to watch Jerry Springer over the wrestling. At least the fights on Springer are a bit more spontaneous and fair dinkum. I remember the time Stone Cold Steve Austin poured concrete into McMahon's convertible. It is all show business and no one knows what is real and what staged anymore. The result is that we don't believe anything anymore. Well, except for the 150,000,000 Americans under 100 IQ, these people believe everything they see on TV.
Thanks captain obvious. By the IQ level of your "posts" it seems you lost touch with reality years ago.
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acting still remains a key thing for a WWE athlete. otherwise, we would have lots of pro bodybuilders in the Ring
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Vince walked right into the "Mr Mcmahon" angle with Stone Cold and everyone hated him for what he "did" to Bret.
The "Montreal Screwjob" was the GREATEST WORK IN THE HISTORY OF THE SPORT.
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Vince McMahon behaves like a stooge on his shows. I agree with Vince Goodrum here. What is the test of truth here re who said what? There is none. So this is a waste of time debating.
Seems to me the IFBB should change its name to IFBBE to duplicate the entertainment aspect of the sport. Clearly some representatives in the IFBB are playing roles and following scripts.
please elaborate, Vince...you talk like you know whats going on in the world of pro bb today, so by all means, enlighten us all.....
BTW...wrestling isn't meant to be taken seriously, much like watching a magic act...you know the magician isn't REALLY making the tiger disappear...it's a trick..an illusion...it's make believe. GET IT?
Hope I didn't just ruin it for you...
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please elaborate, Vince...you talk like you know whats going on in the world of pro bb today, so by all means, enlighten us all.....
BTW...wrestling isn't meant to be taken seriously, much like watching a magic act...you know the magician isn't REALLY making the tiger disappear...it's a trick..an illusion...it's make believe. GET IT?
Hope I didn't just ruin it for you...
Wait a minute Mr. Rogers... In MY Land of Make Believe, Chriss Angel really can levitate from rooftop to rooftop. So if you wanna be my neighbor quit bursting my bubble. Magic is REAL, Wraslin is REAL, and Pro bodybuilding is REAL... now go finish shaggin Lady Elaine Fairchilde.
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please elaborate, Vince...you talk like you know whats going on in the world of pro bb today, so by all means, enlighten us all.....
BTW...wrestling isn't meant to be taken seriously, much like watching a magic act...you know the magician isn't REALLY making the tiger disappear...it's a trick..an illusion...it's make believe. GET IT?
Hope I didn't just ruin it for you...
Everyone knows wrestling is scripted Bob. What we're talking about are events outside of the script. For example, if Rip Torn had secretly replaced foam wrenches with real ones on the set of Dodgegball and whipped a couple dozen at Ben Stiller, that would not be "make believe", even though they were actors, on a movie set.
There's an unfortunate surge the past few years of people doing bad things and then saying things "Don't judge me" or, " I have a right to look out for myself", or "it's just business" (and these people are paraphrasing the Godfather to boot). Somehow, these people got the impression that hurting others while looking out for oneself was not a low thing to do. Bret was open about looking out for himself. He told Vince, in advance, it was his way, or no way. And Vince agreed to it. But then he broke his word.
Whether he broke his word to secure the future of the WWE, to save all of his other employees from harm, to cure cancer or to rescue a child from a burning building, he still broke his word to Bret. Whether that betrayal was for the greater good, including Bret himself down the road, is a different philosophical debate altogether.
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I prefer to watch Jerry Springer over the wrestling. At least the fights on Springer are a bit more spontaneous and fair dinkum. I remember the time Stone Cold Steve Austin poured concrete into McMahon's convertible. It is all show business and no one knows what is real and what staged anymore. The result is that we don't believe anything anymore. Well, except for the 150,000,000 Americans under 100 IQ, these people believe everything they see on TV.
I know this is a non-sequitor Vince, but don't you think it's time you gave up your one-man quest to get everyone else to use and appreciate the term "fair dinkum". As an expat Canadian, you must realize that no one on this side of the Atlantic has ever used that expression, and I doubt after having grown up in Canada you use it so frequently without realizing this.
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if Rip Torn had secretly replaced foam wrenches with real ones on the set of Dodgegball and whipped a couple dozen at Ben Stiller, that would not be "make believe"
But it would have been hilarious. And satisfying!
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But it would have been hilarious. And satisfying!
I mean, who wouldn't pay 25 bucks to see Stiller unknowingly pelted with metal.
They should have that leaked rumor prior to release and tripled the earnings. That, and giving "Bob Titan" second billing of course.
There it is Bob, your new Hollywood name. Much better than something like "Arnold Strong".
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there are two sides to every story...I'm sure Vince has his own.
The WWE is big business, and threy run it very professionally. Triple H, and any pro wrestler past and present....take HUGE offense to the word "fake", and it is a unwritten rule that they dont use it when referring to the sports entertainment industry of wrestling.
Triple H knew Bret Hart much more than we do...maybe he referred to him as what you painted because thats what he was....the bottom line is, a role is a role...you do what it calls for whether you agree with it or not from your personal perspective...
BTW....your AG analogy wouldn't be the best, as the way it went down was closer to the latter than the going away party....that's showbiz!
Sure thing, Bob.
Oh by the way, did you ever catch the skit where Triple H fucked a corpse in a casket?
Just wondering........
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Sure thing, Bob.
Oh by the way, did you ever catch the skit where Triple H fucked a corpse in a casket?
Just wondering........
Ya, but he didn't really fuck the corpse, so it's OK.
Bob, you're going to come back by saying "Yes, the events within the script are outrageous, but the way the organization is run itself is very professional. No one says Paramount is unprofessional for having Hannibal Lecter eat human flesh..."
Which is when I woud point out that that is exactly what I've been saying...That the level of professionalism is not about the show's content, but the running of the show behind the scenes.
A professional organization does not lie to or mistreat its employees. Making a lot of money is not the same as being a very professional organization. If the employee refuses to play their assigned role, you fire them, or sue them for breach. You don't placate them with a lie then back stab them.
You've seen many BBs get screwed over the years by The Man, directly or indirectly, I'm sure. So many I bet, that those betrayals would warrant their own thread.
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And instead of being remembered for his matches, and all that he had accomplished as a wrester, he gets lumped with being remembered for being SCREWED by Vince Mcmahon and Shawn Michaels, in Canada
forever.
Thats damage. They messed with his reputation when he had done all he could as a wrestler to ensure some integrity. Being Brett Hart meant something. There are rules, and these people knew the rules which makes what they did worse.
Bret Hart knew those rules, too, including the "time-honored traditon".
Yes Brett was arrogant and all that but they all are. He didnt deserve what they did, and in light of him not being able to wrestle long enough afterwards to overcome it and create a new successful run due to Goldbergs kick to the head, he is stuck with it.
And Triple H knows how screwed he would ever be if he doesnt tow the line and this is a wrestling company that scripts every word their wrestlers say. Anything coming out of his mouth is suspect.
nuff said.
So, McMahon was supposed to risk his company, his livelihood, and that of his wrestlers, just because Hart's feelings would have been hurt by losing his title in Canada to HBK?
The Hitman's reputation would have been just fine, again, if he'd had just followed the "time-honored tradition" and dropped the belt at Survivor Series.
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Bret Hart knew those rules, too, including the "time-honored traditon".
So, McMahon was supposed to risk his company, his livelihood, and that of his wrestlers, just because Hart's feelings would have been hurt by losing his title in Canada to HBK?
The Hitman's reputation would have been just fine, again, if he'd had just followed the "time-honored tradition" and dropped the belt at Survivor Series.
Its more then that. Bret and Shawn hated eachothers guts in real life. They even got into a fist fight backstage back in 1990 which lead to a 4 month suspesion to Shawn for provoking the incident. Also remember, Bret was told that the match at survivor series in Montreal was going to end in a double disqualification. Instead they went behind Bret's back and changed the script. Shawn, Vince and the Ref were all in on it and Shawn even admitted to it in his book. To top it off Vince had the ref stop the match while SHawn had Bret Hart in his own finishing hold...a definate no no in that business. It was so bad that half the wrestlers boycotted and skipped the Raw show the next night in protest of that insident of Bret being screwed. The Hart's are very respected in the wrestling business.
PB
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Bret Hart knew those rules, too, including the "time-honored traditon".
So, McMahon was supposed to risk his company, his livelihood, and that of his wrestlers, just because Hart's feelings would have been hurt by losing his title in Canada to HBK?
The Hitman's reputation would have been just fine, again, if he'd had just followed the "time-honored tradition" and dropped the belt at Survivor Series.
Again, Vince is free to double cross whoever he wants by claiming he did it for his own good reasons. It's still a double cross, though. Bret might have been petulant, but he was up front about it. Vince was not. That's the difference.
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Again, Vince is free to double cross whoever he wants by claiming he did it for his own good reasons. It's still a double cross, though. Bret might have been petulant, but he was up front about it. Vince was not. That's the difference.
gayer then taking wrestling seriously
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A professional organization does not lie to or mistreat its employees. Making a lot of money is not the same as being a very professional organization. If the employee refuses to play their assigned role, you fire them, or sue them for breach. You don't placate them with a lie then back stab them.
Excellently put.
But Bob has been enforcing for just this kind of "toxic" organization for so long that I'm sure he doesn't get it.
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Its more then that. Bret and Shawn hated eachothers guts in real life. They even got into a fist fight backstage back in 1990 which lead to a 4 month suspesion to Shawn for provoking the incident. Also remember, Bret was told that the match at survivor series in Montreal was going to end in a double disqualification. Instead they went behind Bret's back and changed the script. Shawn, Vince and the Ref were all in on it and Shawn even admitted to it in his book. To top it off Vince had the ref stop the match while SHawn had Bret Hart in his own finishing hold...a definate no no in that business. It was so bad that half the wrestlers boycotted and skipped the Raw show the next night in protest of that insident of Bret being screwed. The Hart's are very respected in the wrestling business.
PB
But, the Harts aren't above the business. Again, that's why McMahon's interview on RAW saved the WWF. He basically told his side of the story. He felt he had a responsibilty to the other wrestlers that work for him, that have families to feed to and bills to pay.
McMahon tried his best to keep Hart. And, when he simply couldn't do it, McMahon helped Hart get his lucrative deal in WCW. From his end, he did all he could (as much as it hurt him) to help the Hitman make his transition to WCW smooth The only thing he asked is that Bret do the (what I will now abbreviate as) THT. The ducks are in a row; all Hart has to do is lose the title to HBK at Survivor Series.
Hart was leaving, one way or the other. Despite the way WCW did things with its World title, the WWF championship still meant something to Vince McMahon (and to the WWF wrestlers). And, he wasn't about to risk letting Eric Bischoff and WCW deface or defame the heart, soul, and symbol of his company.
What would have happened if McMahon held up his end of the bargain at Survivor Series, but Bret Hart balked and didn't show on RAW for the rematch? After all, just getting Hart to lose to HBK in the first place was like pulling teeth.
Again, emotions were mixed. Some left in protest, after seeing McMahon pull the rug from underneath Bret Hart; others. Others didn't see the point of having their company and the symbol of their livelihood jeopardized, to spare the Hitman's ego the pain of losing to Michaels in the Great White North.
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Interesting discussion.... someone please clear this up for me????
What exactly happened since i havent watched wrestling in years...
HBK put him in his OWN finnishing move and the ref called the submission without Brett knowing it? How did he react? He flip out on national TV? what happened next?
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Interesting discussion.... someone please clear this up for me????
What exactly happened since i havent watched wrestling in years...
HBK put him in his OWN finnishing move and the ref called the submission without Brett knowing it? How did he react? He flip out on national TV? what happened next?
Hart spit on McMahon, after he realized what happened. As Michaels' music played and the French ring announcer declared HBK the new WWF Champion, an angry Michaels was rushed back to the locker room, escorted by Hemsley and either Jerry Brisco or Pat Patterson. Just before hitting the entrance/exit, Michaels raised the belt in the air, feigning joy at winning the title. That was on the air.
Off the air (according to some sites I've seen), Hart waved to his fans and, with his fingers, spelled the letters, W-C-W, to the crowd. Then, after leaving the ring a fight emerged, resulting in Hart socking McMahon in the eye.
Predicably, Bischoff and the folks in WCW bragged about the situation. The WCW announcers on Nitro said they had some big news that was coming. Out comes Bischoff and the NWO, all carrying various-sized Canadian flags. As expected, they boasted that they got Bret Hart to come the NWO and snickered about what happened to McMahon.
When RAW hit the air, Jim Ross announced that Bret Hart left the WWF and said there was some controversy, regarding whether Shawn Michaels made Bret Hart submit in the title match at Survivor Series. Now, that I think about it, the interview with Vince McMahon may have been the following week. As JR showed the highlights of the title match and "confirmed" that Hart did submit to the Sharpshooter.
Black eye or not, McMahon did what he set out to do. He kept Hart from leaving his federation with his world title.
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I live in Calgary, Alberta where the Hart family lives and the information I have heard is that the so called "screwjob" that McMahon did to Brett Hart was fake in an attempt to generate sales of Brett Harts DVD that came out shortly after the event. Apparently Brett Hart and Vince McMahon created this whole screwjob intentionally so that people would purchase the DVD to hear Brett's side of the story. Had this controversy not existed sales of Bretts DVD would of been significantly less.
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McMahon tried his best to keep Hart. And, when he simply couldn't do it, McMahon helped Hart get his lucrative deal in WCW. From his end, he did all he could (as much as it hurt him) to help the Hitman make his transition to WCW smooth The only thing he asked is that Bret do the (what I will now abbreviate as) THT. The ducks are in a row; all Hart has to do is lose the title to HBK at Survivor Series.
Except that Hart was leaving because McMahon couldn't pay him what his contract called for. Of course he helped Bret get a new contract, what choice did he have? I wouldn't quite call that altruism. Even pushing Hart and Michaels, that was for McMahon's business, not them. he wanted to put the steroid era behind him by placing smaller guys on top.
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from what I am reading it doesn't sound like a screwing by an employer on an employee, it sounds like one man breaking an argreement by going behind that other's back.
and that, folks, is wrong.
I think both sides were in the wrong, here.
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hi vince mcmahon, dont u have the balls to open a real account?
Actually that was funny, but honestly, the days of loyalty are long gone, everyone on here knows if another company offers them a better deal: more money, better benefits or longer vacation, they are gone, the business'es have cultivated this attitude, cause you know, if the company can hire someone for less to do the same or more work, you ass is out the door and have to agree with the comments, not really sure if making millions counts as getting screwed.
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Well said MrSirjojo. Bret was screwed and anywhere else especially this country, people would be crying foul, calling lawyers, calling the friggin ACLU, calling that ass-clown Jessie Jackson or crackhead Al Sharpton, etc,etc.....Vince knew exactly what he was doing and the impact it would have especially being in Canada.....I've meet Bret a couple of times and seems like a nice guy....total shame, he was never the same after that
Wasn't it a stroke that messed up Brett?
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to add to this Brett had something in his contract to where he had creative control over what happened on TV. Vince breached this part of his contract, there is documentry that i think G4 was playing about this very subject i suggest you all watch it. He got hosed and Vince bold faced lied to him in his office and Bret had a wire on him to record it.
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Perhaps this is a better analogy...If American Gladiators had laid you off after you gave them everything, injuries, overtime, huge rating, the works....wouldn't you be angry if your boss didn't give you a going away party but instead cleared out your locker and changed the lock?
American Gladiators? That makes pro wrestling look like high art!
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See the above post...sums it up pretty good.
Bret was looking out for his own best interests, as Vince was loking out for his company's best interests...
Owen died in a tragic accident...it had nothing to do with anything else.
I will agree with that, so in essence, the man with the money and power wins; however, that doesnt' mean the he was right. Sometimes the man with the pand $ should humble himself even more.
I think it all was a phony fight anyway to try to make Brett Harts movie sellable, and hence more exposure for them all.
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Actually that was funny, but honestly, the days of loyalty are long gone, everyone on here knows if another company offers them a better deal: more money, better benefits or longer vacation, they are gone, the business'es have cultivated this attitude, cause you know, if the company can hire someone for less to do the same or more work, you ass is out the door and have to agree with the comments, not really sure if making millions counts as getting screwed.
That's why WCW went belly-up. The wrestlers were getting paid, whether they performed well in the ring or not. In essence, they were coasting on name-recognition. That caused the mass exodus of guys like Benoit, Jericho, Mysterio, and others.
The only guy that WCW had worth watching was Goldberg, but his matches lasted all of60 seconds. So, you could watch his match on Nitro and switch right back to RAW, because WCW main-eventers were performing as anything but that.
RAW wasn't always broadcast live. And, WCW was quick to let the fans know about it, by revealing the results of the taped episodes of RAW on Nitro. In fact, yet another embarrassing moment for the WWF, "Ravishing" Rick Rude appeared on both Nitro and RAW on the same night. Rude left the WWF shortly after a Tuesday RAW taping and went to WCW, which debuted Rude on Nitro on the same night that the WWF aired the taped RAW with him on it.
However, that tactic of announcing the outcome of the taped RAW's matched backfired on WCW big-time in 1998. When Mick Foley (as Mankind) first won the WWF title, it was on a RAW taping. WCW announced that Foley, known as Cactus Jack in WCW, would win the championship. The following that Foley had (combined with Nitro, being rather lame that night) had fans actually turning to RAW to watch him win the title.