Dan and Bob, regarding Triple H's comments about the Bret Hart incident ...

[dseiler]

Vince walked right into the "Mr Mcmahon" angle with Stone Cold and everyone hated him for what he "did" to Bret.

The "Montreal Screwjob" was the GREATEST WORK IN THE HISTORY OF THE SPORT.

[Chick]

Vince McMahon behaves like a stooge on his shows. I agree with Vince Goodrum here. What is the test of truth here re who said what? There is none. So this is a waste of time debating.

Seems to me the IFBB should change its name to IFBBE to duplicate the entertainment aspect of the sport. Clearly some representatives in the IFBB are playing roles and following scripts.

please elaborate, Vince...you talk like you know whats going on in the world of pro bb today, so by all means, enlighten us all.....

BTW...wrestling isn't meant to be taken seriously, much like watching a magic act...you know the magician isn't REALLY making the tiger disappear...it's a trick..an illusion...it's make believe. GET IT?

Hope I didn't just ruin it for you...

[Scooby]

please elaborate, Vince...you talk like you know whats going on in the world of pro bb today, so by all means, enlighten us all.....

BTW...wrestling isn't meant to be taken seriously, much like watching a magic act...you know the magician isn't REALLY making the tiger disappear...it's a trick..an illusion...it's make believe. GET IT?

Hope I didn't just ruin it for you...

Wait a minute Mr. Rogers... In MY Land of Make Believe, Chriss Angel really can levitate from rooftop to rooftop.  So if you wanna be my neighbor quit bursting my bubble.  Magic is REAL, Wraslin is REAL, and Pro bodybuilding is REAL... now go finish shaggin Lady Elaine Fairchilde.

[mrsirjojo]

please elaborate, Vince...you talk like you know whats going on in the world of pro bb today, so by all means, enlighten us all.....

BTW...wrestling isn't meant to be taken seriously, much like watching a magic act...you know the magician isn't REALLY making the tiger disappear...it's a trick..an illusion...it's make believe. GET IT?

Hope I didn't just ruin it for you...

Everyone knows wrestling is scripted Bob. What we're talking about are events outside of the script. For example, if Rip Torn had secretly replaced foam wrenches with real ones on the set of Dodgegball and whipped a couple dozen at Ben Stiller, that would not be "make believe", even though they were actors, on a movie set.

There's an unfortunate surge the past few years of people doing bad things and then saying things "Don't judge me" or, " I have a right to look out for myself", or "it's just business" (and these people are paraphrasing the Godfather to boot). Somehow, these people got the impression that hurting others while looking out for oneself was not a low thing to do. Bret was open about looking out for himself. He told Vince, in advance, it was his way, or no way. And Vince agreed to it. But then he broke his word.

Whether he broke his word to secure the future of the WWE, to save all of his other employees from harm, to cure cancer or to rescue a child from a burning building, he still broke his word to Bret. Whether that betrayal was for the greater good, including Bret himself down the road, is a different philosophical debate altogether. 

[mrsirjojo]

I prefer to watch Jerry Springer over the wrestling. At least the fights on Springer are a bit more spontaneous and fair dinkum. I remember the time Stone Cold Steve Austin poured concrete into McMahon's convertible. It is all show business and no one knows what is real and what staged anymore. The result is that we don't believe anything anymore. Well, except for the 150,000,000 Americans under 100 IQ, these people believe everything they see on TV.

I know this is a non-sequitor Vince, but don't you think it's time you gave up your one-man quest to get everyone else to use and appreciate the term "fair dinkum". As an expat Canadian, you must realize that no one on this side of the Atlantic has ever used that expression, and I doubt after having grown up in Canada you use it so frequently without realizing this.

[ribonucleic]

if Rip Torn had secretly replaced foam wrenches with real ones on the set of Dodgegball and whipped a couple dozen at Ben Stiller, that would not be "make believe"

But it would have been hilarious. And satisfying!

[mrsirjojo]

But it would have been hilarious. And satisfying!

I mean, who wouldn't pay 25 bucks to see Stiller unknowingly pelted with metal. 

They should have that leaked rumor prior to release and tripled the earnings. That, and giving "Bob Titan" second billing of course.

There it is Bob, your new Hollywood name. Much better than something like "Arnold Strong".

[UPINTHEMGUTS]

there are two sides to every story...I'm sure Vince has his own.

The WWE is big business, and threy run it very professionally. Triple H, and any pro wrestler past and present....take HUGE offense to the word "fake", and it is a unwritten rule that they dont use it when referring to the sports entertainment industry of wrestling.

Triple H knew Bret Hart much more than we do...maybe he referred to him as what you painted because thats what he was....the bottom line is, a role is a role...you do what it calls for whether you agree with it or not from your personal perspective...

BTW....your AG analogy wouldn't be the best, as the way it went down was closer to the latter than the going away party....that's showbiz!

Sure thing, Bob.

Oh by the way, did you ever catch the skit where Triple H fucked a corpse in a casket?

Just wondering........

[mrsirjojo]

Sure thing, Bob.

Oh by the way, did you ever catch the skit where Triple H fucked a corpse in a casket?

Just wondering........

Ya, but he didn't really fuck the corpse, so it's OK.

Bob, you're going to come back by saying "Yes, the events within the script are outrageous, but the way the organization is run itself is very professional. No one says Paramount is unprofessional for having Hannibal Lecter eat human flesh..."

Which is when I woud point out that that is exactly what I've been saying...That the level of professionalism is not about the show's content, but the running of the show behind the scenes.

A professional organization does not lie to or mistreat its employees. Making a lot of money is not the same as being a very professional organization. If the employee refuses to play their assigned role, you fire them, or sue them for breach. You don't placate them with a lie then back stab them.

You've seen many BBs get screwed over the years by The Man, directly or indirectly, I'm sure. So many I bet, that those betrayals would warrant their own thread.

[MCWAY]

And instead of being remembered for his matches, and all that he had accomplished as a wrester, he gets lumped with being remembered for being SCREWED by Vince Mcmahon and Shawn Michaels, in Canada
forever.

Thats damage. They messed with his reputation when he had done all he could as a wrestler to ensure some integrity. Being Brett Hart meant something. There are rules, and these people knew the rules which makes what they did worse.

Bret Hart knew those rules, too, including the "time-honored traditon".

Yes Brett was arrogant and all that but they all are. He didnt deserve what they did, and in light of him not being able to wrestle long enough afterwards to overcome it and create a new successful run due to Goldbergs kick to the head, he is stuck with it.

And Triple H knows how screwed he would ever be if he doesnt tow the line and this is a wrestling company that scripts every word their wrestlers say. Anything coming out of his mouth is suspect.

nuff said.

So, McMahon was supposed to risk his company, his livelihood, and that of his wrestlers, just because Hart's feelings would have been hurt by losing his title in Canada to HBK?

The Hitman's reputation would have been just fine, again, if he'd had just followed the "time-honored tradition" and dropped the belt at Survivor Series.

[Playboy]

Bret Hart knew those rules, too, including the "time-honored traditon".


So, McMahon was supposed to risk his company, his livelihood, and that of his wrestlers, just because Hart's feelings would have been hurt by losing his title in Canada to HBK?

The Hitman's reputation would have been just fine, again, if he'd had just followed the "time-honored tradition" and dropped the belt at Survivor Series.

Its more then that. Bret and Shawn hated eachothers guts in real life. They even got into a fist fight backstage back in 1990 which lead to a 4 month suspesion to Shawn for provoking the incident. Also remember, Bret was told that the match at survivor series in Montreal was going to end in a double disqualification. Instead they went behind Bret's back and changed the script. Shawn, Vince and the Ref were all in on it and Shawn even admitted to it in his book. To top it off Vince had the ref stop the match while SHawn had Bret Hart in his own finishing hold...a definate no no in that business. It was so bad that half the wrestlers boycotted and skipped the Raw show the next night in protest of that insident of Bret being screwed. The Hart's are very respected in the wrestling business.

PB

[mrsirjojo]

Bret Hart knew those rules, too, including the "time-honored traditon".

So, McMahon was supposed to risk his company, his livelihood, and that of his wrestlers, just because Hart's feelings would have been hurt by losing his title in Canada to HBK?

The Hitman's reputation would have been just fine, again, if he'd had just followed the "time-honored tradition" and dropped the belt at Survivor Series.

Again, Vince is free to double cross whoever he wants by claiming he did it for his own good reasons. It's still a double cross, though. Bret might have been petulant, but he was up front about it. Vince was not. That's the difference.

[xpac2]

Again, Vince is free to double cross whoever he wants by claiming he did it for his own good reasons. It's still a double cross, though. Bret might have been petulant, but he was up front about it. Vince was not. That's the difference.

gayer then taking wrestling seriously

[ribonucleic]

A professional organization does not lie to or mistreat its employees. Making a lot of money is not the same as being a very professional organization. If the employee refuses to play their assigned role, you fire them, or sue them for breach. You don't placate them with a lie then back stab them.

Excellently put.

But Bob has been enforcing for just this kind of "toxic" organization for so long that I'm sure he doesn't get it.

[MCWAY]

Its more then that. Bret and Shawn hated eachothers guts in real life. They even got into a fist fight backstage back in 1990 which lead to a 4 month suspesion to Shawn for provoking the incident. Also remember, Bret was told that the match at survivor series in Montreal was going to end in a double disqualification. Instead they went behind Bret's back and changed the script. Shawn, Vince and the Ref were all in on it and Shawn even admitted to it in his book. To top it off Vince had the ref stop the match while SHawn had Bret Hart in his own finishing hold...a definate no no in that business. It was so bad that half the wrestlers boycotted and skipped the Raw show the next night in protest of that insident of Bret being screwed. The Hart's are very respected in the wrestling business.

PB

But, the Harts aren't above the business. Again, that's why McMahon's interview on RAW saved the WWF. He basically told his side of the story. He felt he had a responsibilty to the other wrestlers that work for him, that have families to feed to and bills to pay.

McMahon tried his best to keep Hart. And, when he simply couldn't do it, McMahon helped Hart get his lucrative deal in WCW. From his end, he did all he could (as much as it hurt him) to help the Hitman make his transition to WCW smooth The only thing he asked is that Bret do the (what I will now abbreviate as) THT. The ducks are in a row; all Hart has to do is lose the title to HBK at Survivor Series.

Hart was leaving, one way or the other. Despite the way WCW did things with its World title, the WWF championship still meant something to Vince McMahon (and to the WWF wrestlers). And, he wasn't about to risk letting Eric Bischoff and WCW deface or defame the heart, soul, and symbol of his company.

What would have happened if McMahon held up his end of the bargain at Survivor Series, but Bret Hart balked and didn't show on RAW for the rematch? After all, just getting Hart to lose to HBK in the first place was like pulling teeth.

Again, emotions were mixed. Some left in protest, after seeing McMahon pull the rug from underneath Bret Hart; others. Others didn't see the point of having their company and the symbol of their livelihood jeopardized, to spare the Hitman's ego the pain of losing to Michaels in the Great White North.

[TooPowerful4u]

Interesting discussion.... someone please clear this up for me?

What exactly happened since i havent watched wrestling in years...

HBK put him in his OWN finnishing move and the ref called the submission without Brett knowing it?  How did he react?  He flip out on national TV?  what happened next?

[MCWAY]

Interesting discussion.... someone please clear this up for me?

What exactly happened since i havent watched wrestling in years...

HBK put him in his OWN finnishing move and the ref called the submission without Brett knowing it?  How did he react?  He flip out on national TV?  what happened next?

Hart spit on McMahon, after he realized what happened. As Michaels' music played and the French ring announcer declared HBK the new WWF Champion, an angry Michaels was rushed back to the locker room, escorted by Hemsley and either Jerry Brisco or Pat Patterson. Just before hitting the entrance/exit, Michaels raised the belt in the air, feigning joy at winning the title. That was on the air.

Off the air (according to some sites I've seen), Hart waved to his fans and, with his fingers, spelled the letters, W-C-W, to the crowd. Then, after leaving the ring a fight emerged, resulting in Hart socking McMahon in the eye.

Predicably, Bischoff and the folks in WCW bragged about the situation. The WCW announcers on Nitro said they had some big news that was coming. Out comes Bischoff and the NWO, all carrying various-sized Canadian flags. As expected, they boasted that they got Bret Hart to come the NWO and snickered about what happened to McMahon.

When RAW hit the air, Jim Ross announced that Bret Hart left the WWF and said there was some controversy, regarding whether Shawn Michaels made Bret Hart submit in the title match at Survivor Series. Now, that I think about it, the interview with Vince McMahon may have been the following week. As JR showed the highlights of the title match and "confirmed" that Hart did submit to the Sharpshooter.

Black eye or not, McMahon did what he set out to do. He kept Hart from leaving his federation with his world title.

[Rudee]

I live in Calgary, Alberta where the Hart family lives and the information I have heard is that the so called "screwjob" that McMahon did to Brett Hart was fake in an attempt to generate sales of Brett Harts DVD that came out shortly after the event.  Apparently Brett Hart and Vince McMahon created this whole screwjob intentionally so that people would purchase the DVD to hear Brett's side of the story.  Had this controversy not existed sales of Bretts DVD would of been significantly less.   

[mrsirjojo]

McMahon tried his best to keep Hart. And, when he simply couldn't do it, McMahon helped Hart get his lucrative deal in WCW. From his end, he did all he could (as much as it hurt him) to help the Hitman make his transition to WCW smooth The only thing he asked is that Bret do the (what I will now abbreviate as) THT. The ducks are in a row; all Hart has to do is lose the title to HBK at Survivor Series.

Except that Hart was leaving because McMahon couldn't pay him what his contract called for. Of course he helped Bret get a new contract, what choice did he have? I wouldn't quite call that altruism. Even pushing Hart and Michaels, that was for McMahon's business, not them. he wanted to put the steroid era behind him by placing smaller guys on top.

[MCWAY]

from what I am reading it doesn't sound like a screwing by an employer on an employee, it sounds like one man breaking an argreement by going behind that other's back.

and that, folks, is wrong.

I think both sides were in the wrong, here.

[Capt._America]

hi vince mcmahon, dont u have the balls to open a real account?

Actually that was funny, but honestly, the days of loyalty are long gone, everyone on here knows if another company offers them a better deal:  more money, better benefits or longer vacation, they are gone, the business'es have cultivated this attitude, cause you know, if the company can hire someone for less to do the same or more work, you ass is out the door and have to agree with the comments, not really sure if making millions counts as getting screwed.

[bmacsys]

Well said MrSirjojo. Bret was screwed and anywhere else especially this country, people would be crying foul, calling lawyers, calling the friggin ACLU, calling that ass-clown Jessie Jackson or crackhead Al Sharpton, etc,etc.....Vince knew exactly what he was doing and the impact it would have especially being in Canada.....I've meet Bret a couple of times and seems like a nice guy....total shame, he was never the same after that

Wasn't it a stroke that messed up Brett?

[bigwrxguy]

to add to this Brett had something in his contract to where he had creative control over what happened on TV. Vince breached this part of his contract, there is documentry that i think G4 was playing about this very subject i suggest you all watch it. He got hosed and Vince bold faced lied to him in his office and Bret had a wire on him to record it.

[bmacsys]

 
Perhaps this is a better analogy...If American Gladiators had laid you off after you gave them everything, injuries, overtime, huge rating, the works....wouldn't you be angry if your boss didn't give you a going away party but instead cleared out your locker and changed the lock?

American Gladiators? That makes pro wrestling look like high art!

[chainsaw]

See the above post...sums it up pretty good.

Bret was looking out for his own best interests, as Vince was loking out for his company's best interests...

Owen died in a tragic accident...it had nothing to do with anything else.

I will agree with that, so in essence, the man with the money and power wins; however, that doesnt' mean the he was right.  Sometimes the man with the pand $ should humble himself even more.

I think it all was a phony fight anyway to try to make Brett Harts movie sellable, and hence more exposure for them all.