Dan and Bob, regarding Triple H's comments about the Bret Hart incident ...

[mrsirjojo]

Dan and Bob,

I realize that the last thing you want to to on your show is challenge something that any of your big-name guests say, particularly if it's not bodybuilding related, but I think someone should point out that the backstory of the Bret Hart and Vince McMahon debacle on that fateful day requires someone to stand up for Hart...or at the very least, to point out that the events of that day are not as cut and dried as implied by Triple H on your show. It's easy to say that Vince was the boss, Bret was his employee, and Bret should have just accepted his curtain call as McMahon told him to do. But there are several things Triple H did not mention on your show when painting the story so simply.

For example, Vince was the one asking Bret to leave the WWF since he couldn't afford to honor the contract Bret had recently signed. Bret could have forced Vince into insolvency, but chose instead to leave for the WCW, as suggested to him by Vince.

Also, Bret has "reasonable creative control" as a stipulation in his contract. He was willing to lose to anyone else, other than Shawn Michaels, and anywhere other than Canada, which is a small market compared to the US. Hart's refusal to lose in Canada was not just about ego, or his own heroic status in Canada. Part of Shawn Michael's recent anti-Hart campaign was also to smear Canada as a whole, and Hart did not want to let down his compatriots. Bob, would you, as an American Gladiator, and in character, have accepted your boss telling you to defame America, Italy, or New York, after he had asked you to resign, and after you had agreed to do so as a favor to him? It seems to me Vince owed it to Bret to meet him halfway, regarding how he lost that belt.

I'm not some die-hard wrestling fan, but I am a working stiff, like many of the guys on Getbig, and I do appreciate justice. What went down that day was all much more complicated than Vince being the boss and Bret being his employee. I realize Wikipedia is not the bastion of ultimate truth, but both sides of the whole story are there for the reading if you're interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Screwjob

[dr.chimps]

Dan and Bob,

I realize that the last thing you want to to on your show is challenge something that any of your big-name guests say, particularly if it's not bodybuilding related, but I think someone should point out that the backstory of the Bret Hart and Vince McMahon debacle on that fateful day requires someone to stand up for Hart...or at the very least, to point out that the events of that day are not as cut and dried as implied by Triple H on your show. It's easy to say that Vince was the boss, Bret was his employee, and Bret should have just accepted his curtain call as McMahon told him to do. But there are several things Triple H did not mention on your show when painting the story so simply.

For example, Vince was the one asking Bret to leave the WWF since he couldn't afford to honor the contract Bret had recently signed. Bret could have forced Vince into insolvency, but chose instead to leave for the WCW, as suggested to him by Vince.

Also, Bret has "reasonable creative control" as a stipulation in his contract. He was willing to lose to anyone else, other than Shawn Michaels, and anywhere other than Canada, which is a small market compared to the US. Hart's refusal to lose in Canada was not just about ego, or his own heroic status in Canada. Part of Shawn Michael's recent anti-Hart campaign was also to smear Canada as a whole, and Hart did not want to let down his compatriots. Bob, would you, as an American Gladiator, and in character, have accepted your boss telling you to defame America, Italy, or New York, after he had asked you to resign, and after you had agreed to do so as a favor to him? It seems to me Vince owed it to Bret to meet him halfway, regarding how he lost that belt.

I'm not some die-hard wrestling fan, but I am a working stiff, like many of the guys on Getbig, and I do appreciate justice. What went down that day was all much more complicated than Vince being the boss and Bret being his employee. I realize Wikipedia is not the bastion of ultimate truth, but both sides of the whole story are there for the reading if you're interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Screwjob

Well, that's why Bret knocked Vince the fcuk out. 

[Luga74]

Well said MrSirjojo. Bret was screwed and anywhere else especially this country, people would be crying foul, calling lawyers, calling the friggin ACLU, calling that ass-clown Jessie Jackson or crackhead Al Sharpton, etc,etc.....Vince knew exactly what he was doing and the impact it would have especially being in Canada.....I've meet Bret a couple of times and seems like a nice guy....total shame, he was never the same after that

[Chick]

I can appreciate where you're coming from, but the bottom line is, as a professional wrestler you are employed as an entertainer/ wrestler and follow a story line as a particular character.

Bret took being the "champ" too seriously, and forgot that is was just a role...even under his own name. The "Hitman" character was just that...a role.

As a paid employee of the WWE, you are expected to perform and follow a  scripted outline of a match/ series of matches against an opponent. PERIOD.

Even in your post, you ask me if I would willfully accept "defaming America, etc...."  Bro...IT'S A SHOW, YOU'RE PLAYING A PART..IT'S NOT REAL.

As HHH said..it's no different than playing a role in a movie or TV series and being told that your character is going to turn on his friends.....as the actor not wanting to do it for fear of what his fans may think of him.

Bret Hart got caught up with his character and blured the line between make believe and reality...

[doison]

I once saw someone climb into the ring and attack an oppenent while the ref was being distracted!

I demand this outrage to be addressed!  As a working man, who takes his job seriously, I feel the need to address this injustice. 
I mean, everyone could see it on TV.  That's not fair!

[mrsirjojo]

As a paid employee of the WWE, you are expected to perform and follow a  scripted outline of a match/ series of matches against an opponent. PERIOD.

Even in your post, you ask me if I would willfully accept "defaming America, etc...."  Bro...IT'S A SHOW, YOU'RE PLAYING A PART..IT'S NOT REAL.

As HHH said..it's no different than playing a role in a movie or TV series and being told that your character is going to turn on his friends.....as the actor not wanting to do it for fear of what his fans may think of him.

I know it's a show Bob. But as an aside, even though we all know it's not real, did you notice how Triple H danced around using the word "fake", almost as if he's contractually obligated not to?

Anyway, I wasn't trying to say Bret wasn't an actor of sorts under the employ of a producer/director, which he certainly was...what I was saying was that, given the backstory, a boss owed his employee more than what he gave him, particularly in view of what his employee was doing for him behind the scenes, and that Triple H made no mention of that. Instead he painted Bret as a spoiled, whiny, megalomaniac.
 
Perhaps this is a better analogy...If American Gladiators had laid you off after you gave them everything, injuries, overtime, huge rating, the works....wouldn't you be angry if your boss didn't give you a going away party but instead cleared out your locker and changed the lock?

[Chick]

I know it's a show Bob. But as an aside, even though we all know it's not real, did you notice how Triple H danced around using the word "fake", almost as if he's contractually obligated not to?

Anyway, I wasn't trying to say Bret wasn't an actor of sorts under the employ of a producer/director, which he certainly was...what I was saying was that, given the backstory, a boss owed his employee more than what he gave him, particularly in view of what his employee was doing for him behind the scenes, and that Triple H made no mention of that. Instead he painted Bret as a spoiled, whiny, megalomaniac.
 
Perhaps this is a better analogy...If American Gladiators had laid you off after you gave them everything, injuries, overtime, huge rating, the works....wouldn't you be angry if your boss didn't give you a going away party but instead cleared out your locker and changed the lock?

there are two sides to every story...I'm sure Vince has his own.

The WWE is big business, and threy run it very professionally. Triple H, and any pro wrestler past and present....take HUGE offense to the word "fake", and it is a unwritten rule that they dont use it when referring to the sports entertainment industry of wrestling.

Triple H knew Bret Hart much more than we do...maybe he referred to him as what you painted because thats what he was....the bottom line is, a role is a role...you do what it calls for whether you agree with it or not from your personal perspective...

BTW....your AG analogy wouldn't be the best, as the way it went down was closer to the latter than the going away party....that's showbiz!

[Playboy]

I can appreciate where you're coming from, but the bottom line is, as a professional wrestler you are employed as an entertainer/ wrestler and follow a story line as a particular character.

Bret took being the "champ" too seriously, and forgot that is was just a role...even under his own name. The "Hitman" character was just that...a role.

As a paid employee of the WWE, you are expected to perform and follow a  scripted outline of a match/ series of matches against an opponent. PERIOD.

Even in your post, you ask me if I would willfully accept "defaming America, etc...."  Bro...IT'S A SHOW, YOU'RE PLAYING A PART..IT'S NOT REAL.

As HHH said..it's no different than playing a role in a movie or TV series and being told that your character is going to turn on his friends.....as the actor not wanting to do it for fear of what his fans may think of him.

Bret Hart got caught up with his character and blured the line between make believe and reality...

Don't forget that Bret & Shawn hated eachother in real life too. Either way Bret got the last laugh. In WCW he made 3.7 million per year in his 3 year stay there. Way more then he made with Vince.

PB

[natural al]

the more I know about this story the more I feel that Bret was wrong and Vince was right.  Bret loosing in CAndada would have and did generate so much heat for Shawn, it was about vince setting up the WWF for the future.

[mrsirjojo]

the more I know about this story the more I feel that Bret was wrong and Vince was right.  Bret loosing in CAndada would have and did generate so much heat for Shawn, it was about vince setting up the WWF for the future.

Consider this then:

Regarding McMahon

"The documentary Hitman Hart: Wrestling with Shadows included footage of McMahon's conversations with Hart in which he affirmed the planned disqualification finish and expressed determination for Hart to exit "the right way" and as amicably as possible — McMahon did not know that the conversation was being filmed."

Regarding Triple H's potential bias and credibility:

"In the hallway outside the dressing-rooms, Bret Hart's wife confronted Triple H and others angrily. Shawn Michaels and Triple H were confronted and assailed by angry fans outside the Molson Center Arena and at the lobby in the hotel."

"Despite the television shows and considerable antagonism from the fans, both Michaels and Triple H would continue to deny any knowledge or involvement in the screwjob for several years when discussing the episode in real-life interviews."

As I said to Bob, I know these men are actors. However, the incident doesn't reflect well on McMahon as a person at all and as his son-in-law and someone who was harassed after the incident, I don't think we should necessarily take what Triple H says at face value.

Moreover,  to say that "business is business", or "that's showbiz" is to say that people should not be held accountable for reprehensible behavior, so long as they are doing it to make, or keep, a buck.

There have been plenty of BBs who have been treated similarly over the years, by either promoters or the you-know-who family. I doubt anyone says "it's just business" when referring to those incidents, assuming the you-know-who family is in earshot.

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

I can appreciate where you're coming from, but the bottom line is, as a professional wrestler you are employed as an entertainer/ wrestler and follow a story line as a particular character.

Bret took being the "champ" too seriously, and forgot that is was just a role...even under his own name. The "Hitman" character was just that...a role.

As a paid employee of the WWE, you are expected to perform and follow a  scripted outline of a match/ series of matches against an opponent. PERIOD.

Even in your post, you ask me if I would willfully accept "defaming America, etc...."  Bro...IT'S A SHOW, YOU'RE PLAYING A PART..IT'S NOT REAL.

As HHH said..it's no different than playing a role in a movie or TV series and being told that your character is going to turn on his friends.....as the actor not wanting to do it for fear of what his fans may think of him.

Bret Hart got caught up with his character and blured the line between make believe and reality...

Unfortunately, Chick, I have to highly disagree with you on this. 



As a former wrestler myself, I know that the wrestling name and persona you chose is the one that you branded with for life.  Its not the same as a character in a movie.   


The purpose of Vince doing that to Bret Hart was to essentially "screw him" and screw him very badly in all ways

1.  He made him lose the title in his native country-big no no
2.  He made him lose the title by being beat by his own finishing move- bigger no no


Chick, a wrestling character is not the same as a movie character.  Its a lot different and even if it was scripted...that wasn't the script Bret got or he would have never done it.  There are cases in history where promoters have been killed by wrestlers for disrespecting their wrestling persona. 


A wrestling persona is basically a man's life work.  Screw with that and bad things can happen.  That's why Vince got knocked out and that's why everyone involved with that show had to get out of Canada as soon as possible. 

Bret Hart is a Canadian Hero and that's why it happenned. 

[xpac2]

I can't believe Balboa jobbed to Mason "The Lion" Dixon. I heard Stallone had reasonable creative control. What a screwjob!

[The_Punisher]

Vince cheated so many of these guys, it's ridiculous. Don't expect Dwayne johnson a.k.a The Rock to come back to wrestling anytime soon. I'm sure the ratings for smack down were second to none in that time slot when The Rock was with WWE. As long as Vince is cashing in, who gives a fcuk, right?

[Cavalier22]

well stone cold beat up mcmahon later so its all good

[davidpaul]

Bret Hart got SCREWED!!!!!!!!

[xpac2]

Vince cheated so many of these guys, it's ridiculous. Don't expect Dwayne johnson a.k.a The Rock to come back to wrestling anytime soon. I'm sure the ratings for smack down were second to none in that time slot when The Rock was with WWE. As long as Vince is cashing in, who gives a fcuk, right?

How did he cheat anyone? If you are a wwe performer you make shit loads more then any bodybuilder or MMA guy, you have fame and girls beyond your wildest dreams and if you are smart you can retire at 40 and live the good life.
If that's being cheated then Vince can cheat me all he wants!

[ribonucleic]

As a former wrestler myself, I know that the wrestling name and persona you chose is the one that you branded with for life.

Must... resist... wisecrack...

 

Anywho, Bob's position on this should surprise no one. Like Alberto Gonzales - only with thicker traps - he has made a prosperous career as an enforcer for his authoritarian bosses. For both men, the "natural" supremacy of entrenched institutional power is a value so internalized as to be beyond rational analysis. Consequently, they are quite sincere - possibly even affectionate - in their licking of the boots that have stamped on the throats of so many of their countrymen. [Bob's "countrymen" being other IFBB pros, in this case.]

[The_Punisher]

How did he cheat anyone? If you are a wwe performer you make shit loads more then any bodybuilder or MMA guy, you have fame and girls beyond your wildest dreams and if you are smart you can retire at 40 and live the good life.
If that's being cheated then Vince can cheat me all he wants!

Vince made billions off these guys. Dwayne jonhson was very popular, but he figured 4million a year he was making was pocket change, and now that he's making it big as an actor, he couldn't be more happy. So many things going on in wrestling, I bet you there were a lot more guys that had issues with Vince. He's known to be a son of a bitch

[xpac2]

Vince made billions off these guys. Dwayne jonhson was very popular, but he figured 4million a year he was making was pocket change, and now that he's making it big as an actor, he couldn't be more happy. So many things going on in wrestling, I bet you there were a lot more guys that had issues with Vince. He's known to be a son of a bitch

So The Rock made 4 million a year and used it to launch his career as an actor. So tell me how he got screwed again?

Vince puts out his own money and took a risk by building the WWF into a national corporation form a territorial one. He put wrestling on the map and brought in billions of dollars, I wasn't aware that you weren't allowed to make money off your own business. I din't realize that he was running a non-profit charity 

[wes mantooth]

Vince cheated so many of these guys, it's ridiculous. Don't expect Dwayne johnson a.k.a The Rock to come back to wrestling anytime soon. I'm sure the ratings for smack down were second to none in that time slot when The Rock was with WWE. As long as Vince is cashing in, who gives a fcuk, right?

the rock was on monday...

he didnt wrestle...but he didnt look like a disgruntled employee either..

[Capt._America]

For every person on here that called himself a working stiff, you should know the deal, the boss owes us nothing, and really, they do not give a a sh!t about us, you can walk out of your job tomorrow and no one will care, will be replaced by lunch, and trust me, I am not a boss, as much as it sucks for these pro wrestlers getting "screwed", they chose this career, they know the risks and outcomes, if they don't like it, chose to do something else.

[davidpaul]

For every person on here that called himself a working stiff, you should know the deal, the boss owes us nothing, and really, they do not give a a sh!t about us, you can walk out of your job tomorrow and no one will care, will be replaced by lunch, and trust me, I am not a boss, as much as it sucks for these pro wrestlers getting "screwed", they chose this career, they know the risks and outcomes, if they don't like it, chose to do something else.

hi vince mcmahon, dont u have the balls to open a real account?

[xpac2]

For every person on here that called himself a working stiff, you should know the deal, the boss owes us nothing, and really, they do not give a a sh!t about us, you can walk out of your job tomorrow and no one will care, will be replaced by lunch, and trust me, I am not a boss, as much as it sucks for these pro wrestlers getting "screwed", they chose this career, they know the risks and outcomes, if they don't like it, chose to do something else.

Exactly. And if you think being paid millions to wrestle is getting screwed I'd like you to tell that to a factory worker getting 10 bucks an hour

[The_Punisher]

the rock was on monday...

he didnt wrestle...but he didnt look like a disgruntled employee either..

lol....He was vince's biggest superstar, I'm sure he received the red carpet treatment when he was wrestling. But not everybody at WWE is a dwayne johnson; Vince knows it, HHH knows it. Vince and Hulk Hogan were not the best buddies either.

[xpac2]

lol....He was vince's biggest superstar, I'm sure he received the red carpet treatment when he was wrestling. But not everybody at WWE is a dwayne johnson; Vince knows it, HHH knows it. Vince and Hulk Hogan were not the best buddies either.

So you tell me who has been "screwed" by Vince then?