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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: The_Iron_Disciple on April 15, 2007, 06:25:34 PM
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Here's my question for all of you so-called Christians ... ;)
Why did " God " create such Chaos in a World if " he's " all-loving " ? You may answer, " Well, Iron Disciple, God gave man " Freewill " so THAT'S why there's so much chaos in the World. " I call, " Bullshit ! " and here's why. God has the ability to see ALL THINGS so it wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination to think that " he " could see right into the future. So why would an " all-loving " God approve of Children getting raped and killed ??
If you want my honest opinion on the matter then let me say this ... I think that God and the Devil are one and the same. I look foward to your replies.
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Here's my question for all of you so-called Christians ... ;)
I look foward to your replies.
Yes, you "so-called Christians", I look forward to your replies too. ;)
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So do Christians here believe that the killings yesterday were a call from God to the deceased? Or just a crazy person killing for whatever reason he saw fit?
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Here's my question for all of you so-called Christians ... ;)
Why did " God " create such Chaos in a World if " he's " all-loving "
Not too sure what a "so-called" Christian is :)
When God created the world it was a perfect place. He didn't create a chaotic world.
God has the ability to see ALL THINGS so it wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination to think that " he " could see right into the future. So why would an " all-loving " God approve of Children getting raped and killed ??
I don't think "approve" would be the correct word here. But I do think the word "allow" could be used in it's place. I do believe as you stated that God can see all things. I also believe He has the ability to stop things from happening. Sometimes He doesn't stop horrible things from happening. I don't know why.
If you want my honest opinion on the matter then let me say this ... I think that God and the Devil are one and the same. I look foward to your replies.
This is interesting ID. Did you grow up believing that? If so, is there a specific religion that teaches it? I'd like to hear more info on that if you would like to share.
So do Christians here believe that the killings yesterday were a call from God to the deceased?
Hi OzmO! Not sure what you are asking here? Are you asking if it was their appointed time by God to die?
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Hi OzmO! Not sure what you are asking here? Are you asking if it was their appointed time by God to die?
OzmO? STella me and OzmO are 2 different people. My question was pertaining that when people say it's your time to go, it's your time. Is that determined by God?
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OzmO? STella me and OzmO are 2 different people. My question was pertaining that when people say it's your time to go, it's your time. Is that determined by God?
Oops! I know you and OzmO are 2 diff. people...I think I was on the phone and not paying attention like I should have. Sorry about that Oldschool! :-[
I'm not sure if everyone's time is determined by God to die. I do believe He knows when, where and how everyone will die but I'm not sure if he determines the actual time and method.
It's a good question. I would like to hear loco's and others thoughts on this.
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I'm not sure if everyone's time is determined by God to die. I do believe He knows when, where and how everyone will die but I'm not sure if he determines the actual time and method.
I agree with Stella. God knows everything, but it doesn't mean that He always determines when and how everybody will die. He may some times**, but not all the time. He gives us free will. Our good and bad choices sometimes affect multitudes and generations to come, in a good or in a bad way. In His infinite wisdom, God intervenes whichever way He wants to, to the extent that He wants to and as much or as little as he wants to intervene.
Who is to say that instead of 30+ victims in this shooting, there were really going to be 60+ had God not intervened? Who knows?
**1 Samuel 28:18-19
"Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me."
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When God created the world it was a perfect place. He didn't create a chaotic world.
But why did he make the decision to make sin mandatory while at the same time telling people they should not commit sins?
That's a recipe for chaos, is it not?
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I do believe as you stated that God can see all things. I also believe He has the ability to stop things from happening. Sometimes He doesn't stop horrible things from happening. I don't know why.
Because he isn't really everywhere, after all. He's only in some places and he didn't think he needed to be at Va Tech on Monday.
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But why did he make the decision to make sin mandatory
God made sin mandatory? No, He didn't. God made "avoiding sin" mandatory.
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Because he isn't really everywhere, after all. He's only in some places and he didn't think he needed to be at Va Tech on Monday.
Tre,
So you do believe that God exists? However, you believe that God cannot be everywhere at the same time?
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I agree with Stella. God knows everything, but it doesn't mean that He always determines when and how everybody will die. He may some times**, but not all the time. He gives us free will. Our good and bad choices sometimes affect multitudes and generations to come, in a good or in a bad way. In His infinite wisdom, God intervenes whichever way He wants to, to the extent that He wants to and as much or as little as he wants to intervene.
Who is to say that instead of 30+ victims in this shooting, there were really going to be 60+ had God not intervened? Who knows?
**1 Samuel 28:18-19
"Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. The LORD will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me."
I agree with both Stella and Loco. If I may expound on the highlighted portion of what Loco was saying. I know you want to call BS on the free will part of life, but bro, that's what it comes down too. Free will represents the good and evil, or the right and wrong of what goes on in our world. We all have the capacity to do either. Case in point... It was Cho Seung-Hui's decision (free-will) to take the many lives that he did. It was also professor Liviu Librescu's decision (free will) to give his own life for the sake of his students...the perfect representation of good and evil, or right and wrong, but both are products of free will.
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Free will represents the good and evil, or the right and wrong of what goes on in our world. We all have the capacity to do either. Case in point... It was Cho Seung-Hui's decision (free-will) to take the many lives that he did. It was also professor Liviu Librescu's decision (free will) to give his own life for the sake of his students...the perfect representation of good and evil, or right and wrong, but both are products of free will.
Good point, Colossus!
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It is our choices that determine how we grow.
That's where free will comes in. It is a gift from GOD.
when we chose the road less traveled we often grow, when we chose the easy way out, like this guy in Virginia, we don't grow.
So in a sense , GOD has given us the gift of choosing to grow spiritually.
God is with us always and there anytime we call on him. All of our hairs are counted so to speak. :)
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I agree with Stella. God knows everything, but it doesn't mean that He always determines when and how everybody will die. He may some times**, but not all the time. He gives us free will. Our good and bad choices sometimes affect multitudes and generations to come, in a good or in a bad way. In His infinite wisdom, God intervenes whichever way He wants to, to the extent that He wants to and as much or as little as he wants to intervene.
But the people that died just made a choice to go to class. They didn't HAVE a choice to live or die. I'm sure if they did they would want to live. So again, is this a call from God? I'm don't believe so only because IMO a "loving God" wouldn't allow good people to die. Now if they weren't Christians and didn't accept Jesus as their Savior, since this is the only way to Heaven according to the Bible, then would God say it doesn't matter then?
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It is our choices that determine how we grow.
That's where free will comes in. It is a gift from GOD.
when we chose the road less traveled we often grow, when we chose the easy way out, like this guy in Virginia, we don't grow.
So in a sense , GOD has given us the gift of choosing to grow spiritually.
God is with us always and there anytime we call on him. All of our hairs are counted so to speak. :)
Darn good post, Ozmo! ;D
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But the people that died just made a choice to go to class. They didn't HAVE a choice to live or die. I'm sure if they did they would want to live. So again, is this a call from God? I'm don't believe so only because IMO a "loving God" wouldn't allow good people to die. Now if they weren't Christians and didn't accept Jesus as their Savior, since this is the only way to Heaven according to the Bible, then would God say it doesn't matter then?
God gives us free will. Our good and bad choices sometimes affect multitudes and generations to come, in a good or in a bad way.
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Darn good post, Ozmo! ;D
thanks loco. :)
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God made sin mandatory? No, He didn't. God made "avoiding sin" mandatory.
Yes, sin is mandatory.
The fall of Adam was one of god's many 'gifts' to man, correct?
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Tre,
So you do believe that God exists? However, you believe that God cannot be everywhere at the same time?
I don't really believe in God, but I'm hedging my bets by living a good life, just in case.
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It is our choices that determine how we grow.
That's where free will comes in. It is a gift from GOD.
when we chose the road less traveled we often grow, when we chose the easy way out, like this guy in Virginia, we don't grow.
So in a sense , GOD has given us the gift of choosing to grow spiritually.
God is with us always and there anytime we call on him. All of our hairs are counted so to speak. :)
That whole 'free will' argument becomes bullpuckey when one person's 'free will' results in the death of other people.
What? They're dead because they chose to go to school that day?? >:(
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That whole 'free will' argument becomes bullpuckey when one person's 'free will' results in the death of other people.
What? They're dead because they chose to go to school that day?? >:(
i was never trying to suggest they chose to die that day. i was just making a statement about free will.
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i was never trying to suggest they chose to die that day. i was just making a statement about free will.
Right, and my argument is that one person's 'hallowed' free will should end where another's begins.
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Wow ! My thread has gotten quite a few replies ! GOOD ! I don't believe in the Christian God ... rather, I believe in a Higher Power ... a Higher Being. The Christian God to me is both Good and Evil ... remember, God is EVERYTHING. Great posts everyone, btw !!!
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And God said to Cyrus...
Isaiah:45-7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
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And God said to Cyrus...
Isaiah:45-7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]."
Oh, that's low, Wikidudeman! :)
The word "evil" in Isaiah:45-7 means "bad" or "unpleasant things", just like in Jeremiah 24:3 "evil" figs means "bad" figs:
Jeremiah 24:3
"Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil."
Yes, God creates "evil" in the sense that He sometimes causes "bad" or "unpleasant things" to happen for a good reason, Noah's flood, the 10 plagues of Egypt, etc. But God did NOT create evil.
God is good, and to say that God made this kid shoot all those people is..."evil"
Psalm 5:4
You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Psalm 145:17
The LORD is righteous in all his ways and loving toward all he has made.
Psalm 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
Nahum 1:7
The LORD is good, a refuge in times of trouble. He cares for those who trust in him,
Psalm 145:9
The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights
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I think that God and the Devil are one and the same.
I don't believe in the Christian God. The Christian God to me is both Good and Evil.
Are you saying that the Christian God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the devil? Surely, you are not saying that.
Friend,
Choose your words carefully! I'd be very careful if I were you. May God have mercy on your soul!
Mark 3:22-30
22And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebub[a]! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."
23So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. 28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
30He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."
Matthew 12:31-32
31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
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I donno loco, it looks GOD just said he did create evil. He says Evil attaching it to "figs" in the other verse, but in the Isaiah verse, unless there's more to the paragraph, he directly says he creates evil.
If anything he attached to "peace" witch opposite means war right? So God creates war?
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it looks GOD just said he did create evil.
Ozmo,
It's not in past tense. It's in present tense. For the sake of this discussion, that makes a huge difference.
He says Evil attaching it to "figs" in the other verse, but in the Isaiah verse, unless there's more to the paragraph, he directly says he creates evil.
Not just to the paragraph, but there is more to the entire Bible. That's why I posted the many other Bible verses that say God is good, God does not enjoy evil, etc. Care to comment on those many verses?
If anything he attached to "peace" witch opposite means war right?
If you want to argue that "evil" in Isaiah:45-7 means "war", I'm okay with that. Some wars, Noah's flood, the 10 plagues of Egypt, etc. would fall under "bad" and "unpleasant things" God creates when necessary.
So God creates war?
Yes. God loves peace, but war is some times necessary in this sinful world.
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"In other words, do as I say, but not as I do. I mean, do as I do, but not as I say. No, wait, do as I intend, but not as I do or say."
What the hell does this guy want?
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If you want to argue that "evil" in Isaiah:45-7 means "war", I'm okay with that. Some wars, Noah's flood, the 10 plagues of Egypt, etc. would fall under "bad" and "unpleasant things" God creates when necessary.
So your God admits to mass murder and you still follow him?
What kind of person are you??
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"In other words, do as I say, but not as I do."
So what? What's the problem? Why do you interpret it like that? I don't see it your way. The law of the land says I can't carry a gun, but cops carry a gun. The law says I can't shoot someone, but cops do. The law says not to take justice into my own hands.
How is that different from God saying
Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord
God is above all. He is sovereign.
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So your God admits to mass murder and you still follow him?
God does not admit to mass murder. Where did you get that from?
Tre,
Why do you always post crazy statements about God, about Christianity and about the Bible?
"sin is mandatory"?
"Adam's sin is a gift from God"?
"The Bible says that the Bible is amoral"?
"God admits to mass murder"?
Where do you get all this crazy stuff? Certainly not from Christian doctrine and not from the Bible.
When you said that "The Bible says that the Bible is amoral", I asked you to post where the Bible says that and you never replied to my post.
What kind of person are you??
What kind of person are you?
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Ozmo,
It's not in past tense. It's in present tense. For the sake of this discussion, that makes a huge difference.
Not just to the paragraph, but there is more to the entire Bible. That's why I posted the many other Bible verses that say God is good, God does not enjoy evil, etc. Care to comment on those many verses?
If you want to argue that "evil" in Isaiah:45-7 means "war", I'm okay with that. Some wars, Noah's flood, the 10 plagues of Egypt, etc. would fall under "bad" and "unpleasant things" God creates when necessary.
Yes. God loves peace, but war is some times necessary in this sinful world.
the tense is not that big of a difference really......here's why:
"I did create evil"
"I create evil"
"I create evil" means in the presence tense that he creates evil.
Like a clock maker.
"I did build clocks"
"I build Clocks"
See what i mean?
God creates evil according tot he Bible.
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the tense is not that big of a difference really......here's why:
"I did create evil"
"I create evil"
"I create evil" means in the presence tense that he creates evil.
Like a clock maker.
"I did build clocks"
"I build Clocks"
See what i mean?
God creates evil according tot he Bible.
Tense is a huge deal here. Actually, your clock example supports what I'm saying.
A clock maker builds clocks. This means that he has built clocks, he is building a clock, and he will build clocks.
There are many clocks, but Evil is singular. Evil has existed for ages. So it does not need to be created again. So Evil is not what the Bible is talking about here. God did NOT create Evil. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God DID create Evil. This along with all the other verses below support what I'm saying.
Jeremiah 24:3
"Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil."
Psalm 5:4
You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Psalm 145:17
The LORD is righteous in all his ways and loving toward all he has made.
Psalm 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
Nahum 1:7
The LORD is good, a refuge in times of trouble. He cares for those who trust in him,
Psalm 145:9
The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights
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Still no answer as to why inncoent people die if "evil" people decide it's their time to die. If God has no power to protect these innocents, then He is accepting the outcome. For what? Kicks?
Christians try to interpret what the Bible says, and in some cases, they say it's a mystery.
To me, people believing in the Bible and God are not different than people who believe in vampires, witches and psychics. The people who assembled the Bible had no insight that one day, science and commmon sense would be able to dispell at lot of their scriptures. Had they known, they would have made it even more vague then it is now.
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Christians try to interpret what the Bible says, and in some cases, they say it's a mystery.
To me, people believing in the Bible and God are not different than people who believe in vampires, witches and psychics. The people who assembled the Bible had no insight that one day, science and commmon sense would be able to dispell at lot of their scriptures. Had they known, they would have made it even more vague then it is now.
Really? Explain these for me then...if you can.
Checkable Biblical Accuracy
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Charts/CheckableBiblicalAccuracy.html
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Tense is a huge deal here. Actually, your clock example supports what I'm saying.
A clock maker builds clocks. This means that he has built clocks, he is building a clock, and he will build clocks.
There are many clocks, but Evil is singular. Evil has existed for ages. So it does not need to be created again. So Evil is not what the Bible is talking about here. God did NOT create Evil. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God DID create Evil. This along with all the other verses below support what I'm saying.
Jeremiah 24:3
"Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil."
Psalm 5:4
You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Psalm 145:17
The LORD is righteous in all his ways and loving toward all he has made.
Psalm 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
Nahum 1:7
The LORD is good, a refuge in times of trouble. He cares for those who trust in him,
Psalm 145:9
The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights
Based on what he said though he "does create evil"
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Based on what he said though he "does create evil"
Yes, God does create "evil figs". ;D
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Yes, God does create "evil figs". ;D
and he creates "evil"
no spinning it, loco. The bible says God creates evil.
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and he creates "evil"
no spinning it, loco. The bible says God creates evil.
But it never says that God created Evil. No spinning it, Ozmo.
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But it never says that God created Evil. No spinning it, Ozmo.
then are you saying the BIBLE is not the world of GOD?
Isaiah:45-7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]."
I (God) create evil.
If you want to go the "war" route:
which is the same as
I create:
- death
- destruction
- the death of innocents
- suffering
- loss
- hunger
- torture
- the maimed
- cripples
- homeless
- starvation
- motherless children
- fatherless children
- rape
- pillaging
and the list could go on and on.........
One heck of a God identified in these "word of GOd" texts huh loco?
A real compassionate, loving sort.
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then are you saying the BIBLE is not the world of GOD?
Right, it is not the world of God
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then are you saying the BIBLE is not the world of GOD?
Isaiah:45-7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]."
I (God) create evil.
If you want to go the "war" route:
which is the same as
I create:
- death
- destruction
- the death of innocents
- suffering
- loss
- hunger
- torture
- the maimed
- cripples
- homeless
- starvation
- motherless children
- fatherless children
- rape
- pillaging
and the list could go on and on.........
One heck of a God identified in these "word of GOd" texts huh loco?
A real compassionate, loving sort.
The Bible is the Word of God. Now quote the Bible on every single thing you just wrote and then we'll discuss from there. Otherwise, I disagree with you. You are just putting your own words in God's Word.
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The Bible is the Word of God. Now quote the Bible on every single thing you just wrote and then we'll discuss from there. Otherwise, I disagree with you. You are just putting your own words in God's Word.
Who's putting words in God's mouth????????????????????????
It's plain as day
I (god) create evil. do you deny this text? do you deny the word of God here?
And further more: is war NOT all those things? Do you deny that also?
You are always quoting hte Bible, always saying it's the word of GOD and here we are.....the Word of GOD in simple terms:
I create evil.
And you deny it.
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Good point, Colossus!
Thanks, bro.
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This is why, among other things, i say the BIBLE is NOT the 100% word of GOD.
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It is our choices that determine how we grow.
That's where free will comes in. It is a gift from GOD.
when we chose the road less traveled we often grow, when we chose the easy way out, like this guy in Virginia, we don't grow.
So in a sense , GOD has given us the gift of choosing to grow spiritually.
God is with us always and there anytime we call on him. All of our hairs are counted so to speak. :)
Good points, Ozmo!
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Good points, Ozmo!
Thanks C-500. God is always with us, at all times, in times of trouble, in times of need, and in times of joy. He never gives us obstacles we cannot overcome and in doing so, we grow.
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Who's putting words in God's mouth????????????????????????
It's plain as day
I (god) create evil. do you deny this text? do you deny the word of God here?
And further more: is war NOT all those things? Do you deny that also?
You are always quoting hte Bible, always saying it's the word of GOD and here we are.....the Word of GOD in simple terms:
I create evil.
And you deny it.
Quote the Bible where it says that God created Evil. Quote the Bible where it says all those other things you said, rape, and all that stuff. Then we'll discuss further. ;D
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Quote the Bible where it says that God created Evil. Quote the Bible where it says all those other things you said, rape, and all that stuff. Then we'll discuss further. ;D
I just did.
i'll do it again.
Isaiah:45-7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]."
You are a smart and educated person.
Use grammar: I make peace, and create evil. You can take the peace part out becuase of the "and" therefore I create evil.
Here we are in black and white discussing the Bible, and you are denying it.
Is it only good to interpret the Bible when it fits into your own personal beliefs?
Is it only good to quote the passages of the bible you can preach with and ignore some fo the other things like "i create evil"????
???
Also Again, what is war now? A chess game?
What is war??????
huh?
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So your God admits to mass murder and you still follow him?
What kind of person are you??
God has ordered the slaughter of even women and children before (Old Testament). Is that what you have issues with?
Tre, whether you want him to be or not, God is YOUR God too. God is truth, and truth is true whether you agree with it or not.
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I just did.
i'll do it again.
Isaiah:45-7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]."
Quote the Bible where it says that God created Evil. Quote the Bible where it says all those other things you said, rape, and all that stuff. Then we'll discuss further. ;D
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Quote the Bible where it says that God created Evil. Quote the Bible where it says all those other things you said, rape, and all that stuff. Then we'll discuss further. ;D
have i said in this debate that god CREATED evil?
no.
I said he creates evil.
Just like a clock builder build clocks.
Do you still deny this "word of God"?
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Quote the Bible where it says that God created Evil. Quote the Bible where it says all those other things you said, rape, and all that stuff. Then we'll discuss further. ;D
You said god creates wars where needed................ what is war loco? just a word?
I have quoted the bible and you deny it.
You are denying the "word of God": "I create Evil"
end of story.
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This is why, among other things, i say the BIBLE is NOT the 100% word of GOD.
Based on this understanding, it simply means you are making the BIBLE a matter of convenience with respect to what you believe. I, personally speaking, have an incredibly hard team reading through the BIBLE with the mindset that it is the infallable word of God. Know what I mean? It's hard for me to argue that the things Elijah did in the Old Testament are not to be taken literally, along with arguing with the fact that there was no flood. We can't pick and choose what's true about the Bible. If you argue even one iota of the Bible, then you have to discredit everything I'm guessing that's why you have the mindset that it's not 100%. But if you look at it from the perspective of absolute truth. If you believe that God Himself is absolute truth, then it has to be one or the other....either you believe in the Bible, or you don't. In other words, it's my opinion that if you deny the authenticity of God, then you deny the authenticity of God. That's just my mindset.
Did God literally write the bible? No, but it is absolutely God-inspired.
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Based on this understanding, it simply means you are making the BIBLE a matter of convenience with respect to what you believe. I, personally speaking, have an incredibly hard team reading through the BIBLE with the mindset that it is the infallable word of God. Know what I mean? It's hard for me to argue that the things Elijah did in the Old Testament are not to be taken literally, along with arguing with the fact that there was no flood. We can't pick and choose what's true about the Bible. If you argue even one iota of the Bible, then you have to discredit everything I'm guessing that's why you have the mindset that it's not 100%. But if you look at it from the perspective of absolute truth. If you believe that God Himself is absolute truth, then it has to be one or the other....either you believe in the Bible, or you don't. In other words, it's my opinion that if you deny the authenticity of God, then you deny the authenticity of God. That's just my mindset.
Did God literally write the bible? No, but it is absolutely God-inspired.
I see what you are saying..... but passages such as "do on to others" or "as a man thinketh so is he" ( i might have mis-quoted that one) are very indicative of GOD it's hard for me to discount 100% of it. Actually, i think it's like 80% or something. Just some of the ways God's identified in it doesn't fly with me. So to me that doesn't discount the other 80% as God's word. And you can find similar things in other religious writings.
Every book has some truth. I would concede that perhaps the bible has the most.
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See now Loco disengaged on a word for word point right out of the bible.
"I create Evil"
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have i said in this debate that god CREATED evil?
no.
I said he creates evil.
GOD just said he did create evil.
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And after that i said:
Based on what he said though he "does create evil"
Do you deny that God creates evil?
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You are still stuck on something about 20 posts ago.
Hurry catch up. ;D
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You are still stuck on something about 20 posts ago.
Hurry catch up. ;D
No, but you are. Still waiting for you to quote the Bible where it says that God created Evil, that God tells anybody to go rape or murder. Where is all that in the Bible? ;D
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Do you deny that God creates evil?
;D
The word "evil" in Isaiah:45-7 means "bad" or "unpleasant things", just like in Jeremiah 24:3 "evil" figs means "bad" figs:
Jeremiah 24:3
"Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil."
Yes, God creates "evil" in the sense that He sometimes causes "bad" or "unpleasant things" to happen for a good reason, Noah's flood, the 10 plagues of Egypt, etc. But God did NOT create evil.
God is good, and to say that God made this kid shoot all those people is..."evil"
Psalm 5:4
You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Psalm 145:17
The LORD is righteous in all his ways and loving toward all he has made.
Psalm 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
Nahum 1:7
The LORD is good, a refuge in times of trouble. He cares for those who trust in him,
Psalm 145:9
The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights
;D
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Really? Explain these for me then...if you can.
Checkable Biblical Accuracy
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Charts/CheckableBiblicalAccuracy.html
Sure........I'll paste and org like you. ;D
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/is/1.html
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You said god creates wars where needed................ what is war loco? just a word?
When God creates war, war is Justice.
I never said that God craetes all wars. According to the Bible, God does create war for judgement.
1 Samuel 15:18
"Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out."
Now, quote the Bible where God creates murder or rape? War is not murder. War is not rape. Those things may occur during war, but that does not define war and it does not mean that God creates murder or that God creates rape.
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No, but you are. Still waiting for you to quote the Bible where it says that God created Evil, that God tells anybody to go rape or murder. Where is all that in the Bible? ;D
no you said:
If you want to argue that "evil" in Isaiah:45-7 means "war", I'm okay with that. Some wars, Noah's flood, the 10 plagues of Egypt, etc. would fall under "bad" and "unpleasant things" God creates when necessary.
Yes. God loves peace, but war is some times necessary in this sinful world.
That's where i connected th e meaning of WAR: rape, hunger, death etc.... God creates these things? that is not a loving compassionate GOD.
NEXT:
;D
The word "evil" in Isaiah:45-7 means "bad" or "unpleasant things", just like in Jeremiah 24:3 "evil" figs means "bad" figs:
Jeremiah 24:3
"Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil."
Yes, God creates "evil" in the sense that He sometimes causes "bad" or "unpleasant things" to happen for a good reason, Noah's flood, the 10 plagues of Egypt, etc. But God did NOT create evil.
God is good, and to say that God made this kid shoot all those people is..."evil"
Psalm 5:4
You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Psalm 145:17
The LORD is righteous in all his ways and loving toward all he has made.
Psalm 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
Nahum 1:7
The LORD is good, a refuge in times of trouble. He cares for those who trust in him,
Psalm 145:9
The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights
;D
All those verses mean nothing in relation to the passage:
I create evil.
Your assertion that evil = bad or unpleasant things is nothing but a spin on the "black and white" text of I CREATE EVIL.
So we have 2 things being debated here:
1. God creates evil
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
e·vil /ˈivəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ee-vuhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.
–noun
6. that which is evil; evil quality, intention, or conduct: to choose the lesser of two evils.
7. the force in nature that governs and gives rise to wickedness and sin.
8. the wicked or immoral part of someone or something: The evil in his nature has destroyed the good.
9. harm; mischief; misfortune: to wish one evil.
10. anything causing injury or harm: Tobacco is considered by some to be an evil.
11. a harmful aspect, effect, or consequence: the evils of alcohol.
12. a disease, as king's evil.
–adverb
13. in an evil manner; badly; ill: It went evil with him.
—Idiom
14. the evil one, the devil; Satan.
2. God, according to you, creates wars. What are wars? Rape, death destruction etc.....God creates death destruction rape etc.....
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Sure........I'll paste and org like you. ;D
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/is/1.html
Oh, I've read this one before. Thanks! Anything in particular you would like me to comment on?
So are you really going to read mine and explain it? You should. It's pretty interesting stuff. ;D
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no you said:
That's where i connected th e meaning of WAR: rape, hunger, death etc.... God creates these things? that is not a loving compassionate GOD.
NEXT:
All those verses mean nothing in relation to the passage:
I create evil.
Your assertion that evil = bad or unpleasant things is nothing but a spin on the "black and white" text of I CREATE EVIL.
So we have 2 things being debated here:
1. God creates evil
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
e·vil /ˈivəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ee-vuhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.
–noun
6. that which is evil; evil quality, intention, or conduct: to choose the lesser of two evils.
7. the force in nature that governs and gives rise to wickedness and sin.
8. the wicked or immoral part of someone or something: The evil in his nature has destroyed the good.
9. harm; mischief; misfortune: to wish one evil.
10. anything causing injury or harm: Tobacco is considered by some to be an evil.
11. a harmful aspect, effect, or consequence: the evils of alcohol.
12. a disease, as king's evil.
–adverb
13. in an evil manner; badly; ill: It went evil with him.
—Idiom
14. the evil one, the devil; Satan.
2. God, according to you, creates wars. What are wars? Rape, death destruction etc.....God creates death destruction rape etc.....
Read my post on war above.
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When God creates war, war is Justice.
I never said that God craetes all wars. According to the Bible, God does create war for judgement.
1 Samuel 15:18
"Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out."
Now, quote the Bible where God creates murder or rape? War is not murder. War is not rape. Those things may occur during war, but that does not define war and it does not mean that God creates murder or that God creates rape.
War is justice?
REally loco?
Have you ever been in a war? I haven't. But my grandmother was. She told me many stories of what war(justice) is like. It is among other things: rape, murder, death, dying, suffering............
Where is the justice in an 8 year old boy who sees his mother raped by a soldier? Well?
Gods creates wars?
War is not rape? war is not murder?
AIDs isn't harmful either is it? until you have it...... and war isn't rape, murder etc... until it happens.
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Based on this understanding, it simply means you are making the BIBLE a matter of convenience with respect to what you believe. I, personally speaking, have an incredibly hard team reading through the BIBLE with the mindset that it is the infallable word of God. Know what I mean? It's hard for me to argue that the things Elijah did in the Old Testament are not to be taken literally, along with arguing with the fact that there was no flood. We can't pick and choose what's true about the Bible. If you argue even one iota of the Bible, then you have to discredit everything I'm guessing that's why you have the mindset that it's not 100%. But if you look at it from the perspective of absolute truth. If you believe that God Himself is absolute truth, then it has to be one or the other....either you believe in the Bible, or you don't. In other words, it's my opinion that if you deny the authenticity of God, then you deny the authenticity of God. That's just my mindset.
Did God literally write the bible? No, but it is absolutely God-inspired.
Great post, Colossus!
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Read my post on war above.
re-read the definition of evil.
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War is justice?
REally loco?
Have you ever been in a war? I haven't. But my grandmother was. She told me many stories of what war(justice) is like. It is among other things: rape, murder, death, dying, suffering............
Where is the justice in an 8 year old boy who sees his mother raped by a soldier? Well?
Gods creates wars?
War is not rape? war is not murder?
AIDs isn't harmful either is it? until you have it...... and war isn't rape, murder etc... until it happens.
God created the war against the Amalekites. Was your grandmother in that war?
Funny how you post a quote from the dictionary to define evil, yet you say that the defintion of war is rape. ::)
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God created the war against the Amalekites. Was your grandmother in that war?
Funny how you post a quote from the dictionary to defin evil, yet you say that the defintion of war is rape. ::)
nice try bud.
Are you saying in wars there isn't rape? there isn't murder? there isn't the death of the innocent?
that's like saying in football there isn't any hitting.
com on, it is what it is.
Keep avoiding the "I create evil" and keep focusing on the war thing. doesn't really matter as they are both trouble for the "infallible word of God argument"
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Ozmo,
I think that all our posting has slowed down getbig.
I have to go. Nice chatting with ya! Have a great evening and God bless you! ;D
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War is justice?
REally loco?
Have you ever been in a war? I haven't. But my grandmother was. She told me many stories of what war(justice) is like. It is among other things: rape, murder, death, dying, suffering............
Where is the justice in an 8 year old boy who sees his mother raped by a soldier? Well?
Gods creates wars?
War is not rape? war is not murder?
AIDs isn't harmful either is it? until you have it...... and war isn't rape, murder etc... until it happens.
I was thinking of an analogy to make a case for what Loco is saying and how you're are processing what he is saying. Bear with me on this, as it is just an analogy, bro. ;)
Let's imagine that a football game is the equivolent of war. The game (war) is a justified battle between two teams who feel they have the right to win the game, therefore warranting the individual players to put forth their best efforts. This is the concept that I believe Loco is articulating (correct me if I'm wrong, Loco). How your argument fits into the game (war) is what these individuals do to win, which is sometimes to do dirty stuff, holding, clipping, fighting, spitting, cheap shots, etc. These "playing dirty" tactics are what I believe to be analogous to the rape and murder that you speak of in a war.
Would you agree with this analogy?
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Sure........I'll paste and org like you. ;D
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/is/1.html
I like your list. Pretty cool stuff. Thanks, Oldschool Flip! 8)
Good Stuff in the Bible
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/good/long.html
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Oh, that's low, Wikidudeman! :)
The word "evil" in Isaiah:45-7 means "bad" or "unpleasant things", just like in Jeremiah 24:3 "evil" figs means "bad" figs:
Jeremiah 24:3
"Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil."
Yes, God creates "evil" in the sense that He sometimes causes "bad" or "unpleasant things" to happen for a good reason, Noah's flood, the 10 plagues of Egypt, etc. But God did NOT create evil.
God is good, and to say that God made this kid shoot all those people is..."evil"
Psalm 5:4
You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Psalm 145:17
The LORD is righteous in all his ways and loving toward all he has made.
Psalm 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
Nahum 1:7
The LORD is good, a refuge in times of trouble. He cares for those who trust in him,
Psalm 145:9
The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights
The word "evil" and "bad" are synonymous in Hebrew. The word used for "Evil" in Isaiah:45-7 is the Hebrew word "Rah" which means..
1) bad, evil
a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
c) evil, displeasing
d) bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
e) bad (of value)
f) worse than, worst (comparison)
g) sad, unhappy
h) evil (hurtful)
i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
2) deeds, actions
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Isa&chapter=45&verse=7&strongs=07451&page= (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Isa&chapter=45&verse=7&strongs=07451&page=)
This is the same word used in Gen 2:9 referring to the tree of good and evil.
According to Strongs, All of the words used in the KJV that are translated from this single word "Rah" are...
evil 442,
wickedness 59,
wicked 25,
mischief 21,
hurt 20,
bad 13,
trouble 10,
sore 9,
affliction 6,
ill 5,
adversity 4,
harm 3,
naught 3,
noisome 2,
grievous 2,
sad 2,
So it literally does mean as I quoted.
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the tense is not that big of a difference really......here's why:
"I did create evil"
"I create evil"
"I create evil" means in the presence tense that he creates evil.
Like a clock maker.
"I did build clocks"
"I build Clocks"
See what i mean?
God creates evil according tot he Bible.
We're talking about Biblical Hebrew here. Biblical Hebrew doesn't have tenses. There is no "past tense" or "future tense" in biblical Hebrew.
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Tense is a huge deal here. Actually, your clock example supports what I'm saying.
A clock maker builds clocks. This means that he has built clocks, he is building a clock, and he will build clocks.
There are many clocks, but Evil is singular. Evil has existed for ages. So it does not need to be created again. So Evil is not what the Bible is talking about here. God did NOT create Evil. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God DID create Evil. This along with all the other verses below support what I'm saying.
Jeremiah 24:3
"Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil."
Psalm 5:4
You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
Psalm 145:17
The LORD is righteous in all his ways and loving toward all he has made.
Psalm 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
Nahum 1:7
The LORD is good, a refuge in times of trouble. He cares for those who trust in him,
Psalm 145:9
The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made.
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights
You're trying to use an English translation to make an argument about "tense". That doesn't make any sense.
Biblical Hebrew doesn't use "tense" like in English.
Biblical Greek tense is totally different from English.
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Who's putting words in God's mouth????????????????????????
It's plain as day
I (god) create evil. do you deny this text? do you deny the word of God here?
And further more: is war NOT all those things? Do you deny that also?
You are always quoting hte Bible, always saying it's the word of GOD and here we are.....the Word of GOD in simple terms:
I create evil.
And you deny it.
The word used here in Hebrew is "bara'" the a primitive root verb which literally means "to create, shape, form". It's an infinite tense and is used for past, present and future tense.
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The word "evil" and "bad" are synonymous in Hebrew. The word used for "Evil" in Isaiah:45-7 is the Hebrew word "Rah" which means..
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Isa&chapter=45&verse=7&strongs=07451&page= (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Isa&chapter=45&verse=7&strongs=07451&page=)
This is the same word used in Gen 2:9 referring to the tree of good and evil.
According to Strongs, All of the words used in the KJV that are translated from this single word "Rah" are...
evil 442,
wickedness 59,
wicked 25,
mischief 21,
hurt 20,
bad 13,
trouble 10,
sore 9,
affliction 6,
ill 5,
adversity 4,
harm 3,
naught 3,
noisome 2,
grievous 2,
sad 2,
So it literally does mean as I quoted.
It can mean many other things too.
râ‛âh (Strong's H7451)
bad, evil (adjective)
bad, disagreeable, malignant
bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
evil, displeasing
bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
bad (of value)
worse than, worst (comparison)
sad, unhappy evil (hurtful)
bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
in general, of persons, of thoughts
deeds, actions
evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity (noun masculine)
evil, distress, adversity
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical)
evil, misery, distress, injury (noun feminine)
evil, misery, distress
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical)
Isaiah 45:7 (New International Version)
form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (New American Standard Bible)
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
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I was thinking of an analogy to make a case for what Loco is saying and how you're are processing what he is saying. Bear with me on this, as it is just an analogy, bro. ;)
Let's imagine that a football game is the equivolent of war. The game (war) is a justified battle between two teams who feel they have the right to win the game, therefore warranting the individual players to put forth their best efforts. This is the concept that I believe Loco is articulating (correct me if I'm wrong, Loco). How your argument fits into the game (war) is what these individuals do to win, which is sometimes to do dirty stuff, holding, clipping, fighting, spitting, cheap shots, etc. These "playing dirty" tactics are what I believe to be analogous to the rape and murder that you speak of in a war.
Would you agree with this analogy?
I don't know Colossus. I don't believe that rape and murder are justifiable even in war. I don't believe that God condones it under any circumstance. When God sent Israel to war, God did not order them to rape or to torture anyone. God did order Israel to kill them, but because those wicked nations had already been warned, judged, found guilty and condemned.
Deuteronomy 9:5
"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you"
Deuteronomy 12:31
"You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."
In order to maintain His righteousness, God must judge sin.
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Yes, What's your point? Isaiah 45:7 says that God creates evil, disaster or calamity.
Thanks for agreeing with me! ;D
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Numbers 31:15-18
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
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I was thinking of an analogy to make a case for what Loco is saying and how you're are processing what he is saying. Bear with me on this, as it is just an analogy, bro. ;)
Let's imagine that a football game is the equivolent of war. The game (war) is a justified battle between two teams who feel they have the right to win the game, therefore warranting the individual players to put forth their best efforts. This is the concept that I believe Loco is articulating (correct me if I'm wrong, Loco). How your argument fits into the game (war) is what these individuals do to win, which is sometimes to do dirty stuff, holding, clipping, fighting, spitting, cheap shots, etc. These "playing dirty" tactics are what I believe to be analogous to the rape and murder that you speak of in a war.
Would you agree with this analogy?
yes and no. the problem is wars do not occur with out innocent people dying, murder, rape, destruction, homeless, etc.... This happens no matter how just or righteous the war is.
War is evil. war should be avoid at ALL costs.
There are wars that are just. most aren't.
P.S. Clipping just results in a 15 yard penalty. ;D
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The word used here in Hebrew is "bara'" the a primitive root verb which literally means "to create, shape, form". It's an infinite tense and is used for past, present and future tense.
thanks for the info Wik. You seems very knowledgeable in these translations and how they are often misinterpreted.
And the point remains: God creates Evil.
that's among the many reasons why i don;t believe the Bible is 100% the infallible word of God.
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Ozmo,
I think that all our posting has slowed down getbig.
I have to go. Nice chatting with ya! Have a great evening and God bless you! ;D
You have a great evening too loco. You are a great person to have debates with and as always I walk away learning something from you. thank you.
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Are you saying that the Christian God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the devil? Surely, you are not saying that.
Friend,
Choose your words carefully! I'd be very careful if I were you. May God have mercy on your soul!
Mark 3:22-30
22And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Beelzebub[a]! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons."
23So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: "How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27In fact, no one can enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man. Then he can rob his house. 28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
30He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."
Matthew 12:31-32
31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
I am saying that God and the Devil are one in the same. THAT'S what i'm saying.
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I don't know Colossus. I don't believe that rape and murder are justifiable even in war. I don't believe that God condones it under any circumstance. When God sent Israel to war, God did not order them to rape or to torture anyone. God did order Israel to kill them, but because those wicked nations had already been warned, judged, found guilty and condemned.
Deuteronomy 9:5
"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you"
Deuteronomy 12:31
"You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."
In order to maintain His righteousness, God must judge sin.
I found some material that may better articulate what I was trying to say in my analogy. I hesitated to use the analogy of a football game with respect to war, but what I was wanting to express was that war and the wrongs (murder, rape) are two separate entities. And to what you quote from scripture, I believe that God holds all individuals accountable for their actions, be it in war or every day life.
Good points, bro.
Here's that find:
10 Questions About God and War
By Steve Arterburn and David Stoop
New Life Ministries
CBN.com (http://CBN.com) – 1. Does God choose sides? God is always on the side of what is right because it is God who made up the rules about what is right and what is wrong. He explains what is right in the Bible. God doesn’t change his mind about what is right and wrong. So, even though it sometimes looks like God chooses sides, it is really people who choose whether or not they will be on God’s side. If someone little is being hurt or beat up by someone bigger, God is on the side of protecting the little person who can’t defend himself. God wants people to be free, so when someone is taking away another person’s freedom, God is on the side of protecting freedom.
2. Why are there so many wars in the Bible? The Bible is a book about real people and their countries. Since God is telling us about these people, he tells us a lot of things about them, including the wars they fought. As long as there have been people, there have been misunderstandings, disagreements, fights and wars. The Bible was written so we could see how God is involved in the lives of people in all sorts of situations, including wars. Because we can see all sides of people, their good sides as well as their bad sides, it helps us learn right from wrong. It also helps us to know if we should fight in a war and when a war is right.
3. Does God like war? No, God does not like war. God loves all of us, no matter what side of the war we are on. And God doesn’t like to see people that he loves hurt each other. The Bible tells us that one day God will make a new earth where there won’t ever be any more wars. When God makes this new earth, there won’t be war or weapons or pain or crying – even the animals won’t fight with each other! We will all live together in peace and harmony. But for now, we live in a world where things are not perfect. There are some things that God allows us to do, even though he doesn’t like them.
4. Does God want freedom? Freedom is one of the most important things to God. That’s why God lets us make choices. He even lets us choose whether or not we will love him. God wants freedom for all people and all countries, but he gives us the freedom to decide if we want to enjoy his freedom or not. When someone or some country has freedom and someone else tries to take it away from them, this is called oppression. The Bible tells us that God does not want people to be oppressed. God wanted freedom so much that he sent Jesus to earth to help everyone find freedom from sin in their lives, even if they live in a country that does not have freedom.
5. Why does God let war happen? God has given us the freedom to choose whether we will do right or wrong. He has given everyone that freedom because it is so important to our lives. When people have freedom to choose, sometimes they make bad choices and that creates wars. The Bible tells us that wars and fighting happen because of the way people are inside. When people have greed and selfishness in their hearts, they start a fight in order to get what isn’t theirs. Many times when this happens, others who see this wrong being done will try to stop it by talking to the side that is doing the wrong thing. But sometimes talking isn’t enough to make the bully stop doing bad things to other people. That’s when it may be necessary to use force to stop a big bully from taking things that aren’t his. When countries do this, it is called war. God doesn't like war, but he lets it happen because he has given us freedom to choose for ourselves – even if our choice is to go to war.
6. Whom should we pray for? We should be praying for everyone we care about. God tells us we can bring all of our cares and worries to him because he cares for us. If we can give God all of our worries and anxieties, we don’t have to be so afraid. We should also pray for all the people who are our leaders. We can ask God to give them wisdom and courage so that they will do the right thing. We should also pray for the enemy and for their leaders and their families. We may not always feel like praying for our enemies, but God has asked us to pray for them, and it is good for us to do that. We can pray that they will be able to know what is right. We can also pray that God will protect the families and the children in countries where wars are being fought.
7. Does God love the enemy? God loves everyone in the whole world. That means he loves the enemy – even the enemy leaders who are making people die. Just because God loves the enemy, though, does not mean that he approves of the things they do when those things are wrong. God can still love the enemy and make sure that there are bad consequences for their bad behavior and good consequences for their good behavior.
8. I’m mad at God about war! Does that make God mad at me? If you can say that you are mad at God about war, that is really good, because it means that you know how you are feeling. God understands our feelings, and if we are mad at him, it doesn’t upset him. All of us get mad at God sometimes. You know how you sometimes get mad at Mom or Dad when you can’t change things to be the way you want them? Do we still love you when you are mad at us? Of course we do. We love you even when you are angry at us, and God loves you even when you are angry at him. Have you told God how you are feeling about him and what you wish he would do to help you feel better? Why don’t you do that? Maybe it would help you and God to make up. God knows that this is very hard for us to do, and that is why he listens so carefully when we want to talk to him.
9. Does the Bible say when the world will end? No, the Bible does not say when the world will end. Thinking about the end of the world can be very scary. What do you think of when you hear people talking about the world coming to an end? Actually, the Bible does talk about the world coming to an end, but only so that we can have the beginning of a better world. It will be a new world where everyone is always safe, where there is no more war, no more sickness or death, and no more sadness or crying. It will be a beautiful new world where there is peace, and where people will always do what is right. In the new world, all people will love God and each other. We don’t know exactly when the old world will end. Some people think it may be soon because some of the signals that the Bible says will happen seem like some of the things happening now. What we can be sure of is that God tells us that we can hope for a new and better world to come. He also says that we should live like it could be at any time. But for each day, we are to live the best we can and love as much as we can and be at peace as much as we can in this world.
10. Is it wrong if I don’t want the world to end? Of course not. Most of us feel the same way. There are some really nice things about our world that all of us enjoy. Why don’t you want the world to end? Sometimes we can be afraid that too much is going to change and we might lose all the people who love us. You don’t have to worry about that . We will take care of you; we aren’t going to leave you alone. Neither is God. He promised that he will always love us and stay with us and take care of us, no matter what happens in this old world.
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God is above all. He is sovereign.
I questioned a so-called 'Christian' (my wife) about this yesterday in regards to Cho. She maintains that God gave man free agency and I raised the BS flag, because one's will is NOT truly free if another's will can infringe upon it. She said the victims had free agency, but that Cho took it from them.
I said, "well, Cho is a man - if he can take something away that God supposedly gave, then a man can be greater than God".
If God is who he says he is, then I cannot accept that man has greater potential or power than God, ever.
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God does not admit to mass murder. Where did you get that from?
Uh, from the Bible. Are you now saying that the Bible is NOT really the word of God?
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Uh, from the Bible. Are you now saying that the Bible is NOT really the word of God?
Tre,
Okay, but where exactly in the Bible? Can you quote the Bible on that?
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war and the wrongs (murder, rape) are two separate entities.
I agree.
And to what you quote from scripture, I believe that God holds all individuals accountable for their actions, be it in war or every day life.
You are right. BTW, thanks for jumping in the discussion Colossus! ;D
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I agree.
You are right. BTW, thanks for jumping in the discussion Colossus! ;D
I have to echo what OzmO said about you, loco. I have thoroughly enjoyed your post, and I too have learned quite a bit from you.
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I have to echo what OzmO said about you, loco. I have thoroughly enjoyed your post, and I too have learned quite a bit from you.
Well, I thank you and OzmO! ;D
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Well, I thank you and OzmO! ;D
I edited my previous post, because I forgot to add in the information I found. Let me know what you guys think.
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Tre,
Why do you always post crazy statements about God, about Christianity and about the Bible?
"sin is mandatory"?
"Adam's sin is a gift from God"?
"The Bible says that the Bible is amoral"?
"God admits to mass murder"?
Where do you get all this crazy stuff? Certainly not from Christian doctrine and not from the Bible.
When you said that "The Bible says that the Bible is amoral", I asked you to post where the Bible says that and you never replied to my post.
What kind of person are you?
I'm a generally good person and the type of person who will not willingly worship a mass murderer.
My statements which you describe as 'crazy' do nothing more than to expose the fraud that's been perpetrated on mankind for generations. I know, I know...the truth hurts religious zealots.
IF Adam & Eve did not sin, then why were they expelled from the Garden of Eden?
BECAUSE God told them to 'be fruitful and multiply' they *had* to sin. There was no choice.
IF Adam did not make the choice he did, then the multitude of generations brought forth from him would not exist. (think 'flesh')
BECAUSE the Bible condones so much wickedness, it is an amoral text.
BECAUSE God admits to mass murder, I must challenge those who worship him so freely and who sit in judgment of others as if the Christian God-worshippers are the ones with any moral standing at all.
Here is just one example - from the Bible (2 Samuel):
24:15 So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.
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Tre,
Okay, but where exactly in the Bible? Can you quote the Bible on that?
Just did. Let me know if you need more quotes, because there are several.
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Just did. Let me know if you need more quotes, because there are several.
Yes, please, quote them all. ;D
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Let's clarify this a bit:
Rape, murder, destruction, killing of innocent, homeless, starvation etc.....
Are all effects of war. They cannot be avoided.
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I'm a generally good person and the type of person who will not willingly worship a mass murderer.
I do not doubt that you are a good person, Tre!
My statements which you describe as 'crazy' do nothing more than to expose the fraud that's been perpetrated on mankind for generations. I know, I know...the truth hurts religious zealots.
If all the crazy stuff that you are saying were true, then maybe. But you are mistaken. I don't doubt that you really believe all that crazy stuff, but you are wrong about all of it.
IF Adam & Eve did not sin, then why were they expelled from the Garden of Eden?
Who said that they didn't sin? The Bible says that they did sin by eating the forbidden fruit, thus disobeying God. That's why they were expelled.
BECAUSE God told them to 'be fruitful and multiply' they *had* to sin. There was no choice.
Having sex was not their sin. Eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was their sin. God told them to have sex and have kids, nothing wrong with that. But God did tell them not to eat the fruit.
IF Adam did not make the choice he did, then the multitude of generations brought forth from him would not exist. (think 'flesh')
No. If Adam and Eve had not eaten the fruit, we all would be running around naked, having sex, eating fruits and vegetables, and playing with lions and tigers in the garden of Eden.
BECAUSE the Bible condones so much wickedness, it is an amoral text.
BECAUSE God admits to mass murder, I must challenge those who worship him so freely and who sit in judgment of others as if the Christian God-worshippers are the ones with any moral standing at all.
Here is just one example - from the Bible (2 Samuel):
24:15 So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.
Deuteronomy 9:5
"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you"
Deuteronomy 12:31
"You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."
God punishes wickedness. God does not condone wickedness. The punishment of wickedness by God is what you are now calling wickedness. ::)
Tre, are you a pacifist? Do you believe in capital punishment? What if a gang raped and killed all of your family? What do you say would be what everyone in that gang deserves? I'm just trying to understand where you are getting all this stuff from. You say the Bible, but as I'm showing you here, you are way off. Even an atheist knows how the story of Adam and Eve goes.
I'm a generally good person and the type of person who will not willingly worship a mass murderer.
So all Jews and Christians worship a mass murderer? Is that what you are saying?
The Bible says that God wants us to be more and more like Him.
So what does that make us? Now you are going to say that all Jews and Christians are mass murderers? ::)
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Let's clarify this a bit:
Rape, murder, destruction, killing of innocent, homeless, starvation etc.....
Are all effects of war. They cannot be avoided.
Ozmo,
I do not like war, and neither does God.
But can anything good come out of war?
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Ozmo,
I do not like war, and neither does God.
But can anything good come out of war?
Of course.
But remember, the actual sub-point of our discussion regarding war.
God creates evil.
I suggested he might have been talking about war. Although now, after looking up the definition of "evil" , i don't think that at all.
Frankly,
If God is omnipotent, as it is said he is, then he has a many other ways he can get things done instead of going to war.
So, do good things come out fo war? yes.
But with a omnipotent God is it needed? no!
The grace of God is a powerful thing when God choses to use it.
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Let's clarify this a bit:
Rape, murder, destruction, killing of innocent, homeless, starvation etc.....
Are all effects of war. They cannot be avoided.
OzmO, these things are also all affects of life. War does not have to exist for these events to occur.
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Of course.
But remember, the actual sub-point of our discussion regarding war.
God creates evil.
I suggested he might have been talking about war. Although now, after looking up the definition of "evil" , i don't think that at all.
Frankly,
If God is omnipotent, as it is said he is, then he has a many other ways he can get things done instead of going to war.
So, do good things come out fo war? yes.
But with a omnipotent God is it needed? no!
The grace of God is a powerful thing when God choses to use it.
What you are doing sounds alot like how the different denominations have come about over the history of time....
A group will build it's foundation on one passage of the bible and a dogmatic and levitical life based on that one doctrine. When you read a verse like the passage you and Loco have been debating for the past couple of days, you lose the context of what is being said. I've learned that it's a good idea to read NOT just the one verse (which many people use to base their argument of why God does or does not exist), but perhaps 20-30 verses before AND after. This yields a much greater understanding of what the context of the Scripture is saying.
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OzmO, these things are also all affects of life. War does not have to exist for these events to occur.
yeah, i know, but we should avoid them, none the less. I'm not always for the idea that the ends justify the means.
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What you are doing sounds alot like how the different denominations have come about over the history of time....
A group will build it's foundation on one passage of the bible and a dogmatic and levitical life based on that one doctrine. When you read a verse like the passage you and Loco have been debating for the past couple of days, you lose the context of what is being said. I've learned that it's a good idea to read NOT just the one verse (which many people use to base their argument of why God does or does not exist), but perhaps 20-30 verses before AND after. This yields a much greater understanding of what the context of the Scripture is saying.
I agree. But the passage is pretty direct: I create evil.
I'm not discussing the existance of God with loco. We both believe in that. My debate with him is the Bible being the 100% word of God and i was using that as a supporting point to my argument.
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yeah, i know, but we should avoid them, none the less.
Agreed. But this goes to show why Christ has to die on the cross, because we are such a fallen/sinful people. It's just in our nature.
I just got goose bumps thinking about that fact. Man, am I ever thankful to Christ for paying my debt of being such a wreched sinner. Thank you, God! :D
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Agreed. But this goes to show why Christ has to die on the cross, because we are such a fallen/sinful people. It's just in our nature.
I just got goose bumps thinking about that fact. Man, am I ever thankful to Christ for paying my debt of being such a wreched sinner. Thank you, God! :D
This could be a start to whole another discussion!
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It's funny how if a murderer repents hard enough and accepts Jesus as his savior, God will "save" him, but if the people the murdere killed didn't accept God, they go to hell. All loving God...........lol
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It's funny how if a murderer repents hard enough and accepts Jesus as his savior, God will "save" him, but if the people the murdere killed didn't accept God, they go to hell. All loving God...........lol
Oldschool Flip,
Since you are no saint, isn't that wonderful? ;D
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It's funny how if a murderer repents hard enough and accepts Jesus as his savior, God will "save" him, but if the people the murdere killed didn't accept God, they go to hell. All loving God...........lol
I guess that's why they call God's grace "Amazing Grace"
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Oldschool Flip,
Since you are no saint, isn't that wonderful? ;D
Yes, because deep in my heart I don't reject anyone because a book tells me I should.
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Yes, please, quote them all. ;D
Here are some more...
Lot's wife for looking back - Genesis 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
Onan for masturbating - Genesis 38:9-10 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
A group of men who offered incense - Numbers 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
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One person has done a rough count and found at least 2,270,365 murders attributed to God.
I dunno, man, that's a pretty big number if you ask me.
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Here are some more...
Lot's wife for looking back - Genesis 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
Onan for masturbating - Genesis 38:9-10 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
A group of men who offered incense - Numbers 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
-----------
One person has done a rough count and found at least 2,270,365 murders attributed to God.
I dunno, man, that's a pretty big number if you ask me.
Murder? God punishes murderers and you call God a murderer? I call God a just and loving God.
So all Jews and Christians worship a mass murderer? Is that what you are saying?
The Bible says that God wants us to be more and more like Him.
So what does that make us? Now you are going to say that all Jews and Christians are mass murderers?
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Murder? God punishes murderers and you call God a murderer? I call God a just and loving God.
So all Jews and Christians worship a mass murderer? Is that what you are saying?
The Bible says that God wants us to be more and more like Him.
So what does that make us? Now you are going to say that all Jews and Christians are mass murderers?
A couple of guys burning incense were guilty of murder? And what about Lot's wife? Did the punishment really fit the crime? And the guy who jacked off - he deserved death for that??
Remind me again what the Crusades were about?
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A couple of guys burning incense were guilty of murder? And what about Lot's wife? Did the punishment really fit the crime? And the guy who jacked off - he deserved death for that??
Remind me again what the Crusades were about?
Tre,
Are all Jews and Christians mass murderers?
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Murder? God punishes murderers and you call God a murderer? I call God a just and loving God.
So all Jews and Christians worship a mass murderer? Is that what you are saying?
The Bible says that God wants us to be more and more like Him.
So what does that make us? Now you are going to say that all Jews and Christians are mass murderers?
You're getting confused again. There is no "The Bible". To think of the Bible as one single book written by one person would be like thinking of the Wikipedia as one single website written by one single person. The Bible is a compilation of dozens of books written by dozens of people over several centuries.
You can't say that "The bible says this" or "The bible says that". This doesn't make any sense. If you look at the Bible as one single book then you can find parts where it says that God is "Good" and "just" and then you can find parts where it says God kills millions of people and orders the deaths of Children.
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Sorry loco, too much here for me to not say anything.
Murder? God punishes murderers and you call God a murderer? I call God a just and loving God.
God had 3000 jews murdered for being insecure, for lacking faith.
The Bible says that God wants us to be more and more like Him.
So if I give testimony to someone countless times, like or 10 times, help out of there troubles, give food, shelter, and they still are unsure of "god" then i should kill them?
Or perhaps, just turn that person's wife to salt?
Nah, screw it, just kill every living creature save what i can put in a boat.
Oh wait, i'll just take that fella and force to kill his son, then at the last moment let him off the hook.
Yeah, this is the type of example God int eBible has set for us to follow.
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You're getting confused again. There is no "The Bible". To think of the Bible as one single book written by one person would be like thinking of the Wikipedia as one single website written by one single person. The Bible is a compilation of dozens of books written by dozens of people over several centuries.
You can't say that "The bible says this" or "The bible says that". This doesn't make any sense. If you look at the Bible as one single book then you can find parts where it says that God is "Good" and "just" and then you can find parts where it says God kills millions of people and orders the deaths of Children.
I'm confused again? Please do tell me when I was confused before. ;D
There is no Bible? Perhaps you are the one who is confused.
There certainly is "The Bible". And we certainly can say "The Bible says that God is good and just." And we can say "The Bible says that God wants us to become more like Him."
The Bible, the inspired Word of God was
1. Written over about a fifteen-hundred-year span.
2. Written by more than forty authors from every walk of life, including kings, military leaders, peasants philosophers, fishermen, tax collectors, poets, musicians, statesmen, scholars, and shepherds.
3. Written in different places
4. Written in different times
5. Written during different moods: Some wrote from the height of joy, others from the depths of sorrow, others during times of despair, some during times of certainty and conviction, while others during days of confusion and doubt.
6. Written on three continents: Asia, Africa, Europe.
7. Written in three languages: Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek
8. Written in a wide variety of literary styles: poetry, historical narrative, song, law, prophecy, etc.
9. Addresses hundreds of controversial subjects, subjects that create opposing opinions when mentioned or discussed: marriage, divorce, remarriage, homosexuality, adultery, parenting, etc.
Yet from Genesis through Revelations these writers addressed all these controversial subjects with an amazing degree of harmony.
Yet, in spite of its diversity, the Bible presents a single unfolding story: God's redemption of human beings.
Yet, the Bible is consistent and coherent throughout.
The Bible says that God is good and just. The Bible never says that God is not good or that God is evil or unjust, thus it does not contradict itself.
The Bible says that God has killed babies. The Bible never denies this. The Bible never says elsewhere that God does not or has not killed babies, thus it does not contradict itself.
Only God can create life, and only God can rightfully and justly destroy it, and not some doctor in an abortion clinic. Your life is not yours. It is God's.
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Sorry loco, too much here for me to not say anything.
God had 3000 jews murdered for being insecure, for lacking faith.
So if I give testimony to someone countless times, like or 10 times, help out of there troubles, give food, shelter, and they still are unsure of "god" then i should kill them?
Or perhaps, just turn that person's wife to salt?
Nah, screw it, just kill every living creature save what i can put in a boat.
Oh wait, i'll just take that fella and force to kill his son, then at the last moment let him off the hook.
Yeah, this is the type of example God int eBible has set for us to follow.
Only God can create life, and only God can rightfully and justly destroy it, and not some doctor in an abortion clinic. Your life is not yours. It is God's.
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Again, for all we know the authors theat were ALLOWED in the Bible were probably eccentric or nut jobs. None of these idiots knew of life before they wrote it and that's why there is no mention of dinosaurs, other planets, and other star systems things of which we now KNOW exist because of science and technology.
If Sheryl Crow wrote a biography and book on her experiences and some catastrophic event obliterated everything except that book, the next intelligent life forms would think that that would be the next Bible! Lol.
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None of these idiots knew of life before they wrote it and that's why there is no mention of dinosaurs, other planets, and other star systems things of which we now KNOW exist because of science and technology.
Many of the principles of modern science were recorded as facts of nature in the Bible long before scientist confirmed them experimentally. A sampling of these would include:
Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)
Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)
Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)
Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)
Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)
Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)
Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)
Gravitational field (Job 26:7)
Space and stars are too large to be measured or counted. (Jeremiah 33:22, Genesis 15:5)
Attempts by scientists to number the astronomical bodies went on until 1932. ;D
and many others.
Checkable Biblical Accuracy
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Charts/CheckableBiblicalAccuracy.html
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Sorry loco, too much here for me to not say anything.
Don't apologize, OzmO! Bring it on. ;D
God does not need me or anyone to defend Him.
I am here so that you and many others may know Jesus Christ and thus be saved.
I am here to give a reason for my faith and for what I believe.
Many people tend to go along with the popular delusion that the Bible is full of mistakes and is no longer relevant to our modern world. I am here to dispel those delusions and keep the skeptics from deceiving uninformed individuals who read these posts.
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Don't apologize, OzmO! Bring it on. ;D
God does not need me or anyone to defend Him.
I am here so that you and many others may know Jesus Christ and thus be saved.
I am here to give a reason for my faith and for what I believe.
Many people tend to go along with the popular delusion that the Bible is full of mistakes and is no longer relevant to our modern world. I am here to dispel those delusions and keep the skeptics from deceiving uninformed individuals who read these posts.
so when are you going to address your assertion of God wanting us to be more like him and him murdering people?
also by your assertion i should be able to rightfully kill my son? So you are saying becuase he created me he has the right to kill me and it isn't murder?
Again more evidence of God setting a great example for his followers.....
The Bible isn't out of date....it's just not the 100% word of God.
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so when are you going to address your assertion of God wanting us to be more like him and him murdering people?
also by your assertion i should be able to rightfully kill my son? So you are saying becuase he created me he has the right to kill me and it isn't murder?
You did not create your son. God created your son. We procreate. We do not and cannot create life.
If God kills His creation, it is not murder. God does not commit murder.
Have I adressed your question? If not, please let me know how I can better address it.
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You did not create your son. God created your son. We procreate. We do not and cannot create life.
If God kills His creation, it is not murder. God does not commit murder.
Have I adressed your question? If not, please let me know how I can better address it.
no you haven't, it's a cop out.
He tells us not to kill and then kills 3000 people. He ordered moses to kill 300 people. So are you saying if God orders it it's ok? If God wanted to change his creation he could have just made them disappear instead of making men kill.
Your are avoiding the fact of God's own hypocracy in ordering the death of 3000 people. (please understand, i'm not calling a GOD a hypocrite, i'm only saying the picture of him painted in exodus is. Hence the Bible is not the 100% word of God.)
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no you haven't, it's a cop out.
He tells us not to kill and then kills 3000 people. He ordered moses to kill 300 people. So are you saying if God orders it it's ok? If God wanted to change his creation he could have just made them disappear instead of making men kill.
Your are avoiding the fact of God's own hypocracy in ordering the death of 3000 people. (please understand, i'm not calling a GOD a hypocrite, i'm only saying the picture of him painted in exodus is. Hence the Bible is not the 100% word of God.)
So what? How and why is it a cop out? Because you say so? I am not avoiding anything. Am I denying any of your claims of God killing people? No Christian or Jew will deny the flood, wars, the 10 plagues. What else do you want?
You believe it's murder. Fine. Believe it. We don't share your belief, or unbelief.
We don't believe it is murder because we believe God created life and only God can rightly and justly take it away whenever He wants to, however He wants to.
Not only that, but everything we have belongs to God. From God it all came and God can take it away if He wants to, when He wants to and however He wants to.
Job 1:21
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart.
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised."
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So what? How and why is it a cop out? Because you say so? I am not avoiding anything. Am I denying any of your claims of God killing people? No Christian or Jew will deny the flood, wars, the 10 plagues. What else do you want?
You believe it's murder. Fine. Believe it. We don't share your belief, or unbelief.
We don't believe it is murder because we believe God created life and only God can rightly and justly take it away whenever He wants to, however He wants to.
Not only that, but everything we have belongs to God. From God it all came and God can take it away if He wants to, when He wants to and however He wants to.
Job 1:21
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart.
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised."
Yeah, except for what's Caesars...... ::)
You still haven't address the hypocrisy.
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Yeah, except for what's Caesars...... ::)
Ozmo,
What exactly are you talking about here? Paying taxes?
You still haven't address the hypocrisy.
What hypocrisy? Aren't you an American, OzmO? Didn't your country nearly wipe out Native Americans and stole their lands? Isn't America at war in Iraq at the moment? Are you not killing babies in abortion clinics? Funny how you skeptics bring up the wars and "God killing babies" argument to attack the Bible, Christians and Jews, yet in doing so, you skeptics come off as hypocrites. Who is the hypocrite now?
Don't get me wrong. I love the United States of America. I believe God has blessed America and God does a lot of good through America. I'm just saying you should choose your words carefully so you don't come off as a hypocrite here, on the World Wide Web.
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What hypocrisy? Aren't you an American, OzmO? Didn't your country nearly wipe out Native Americans and stole their lands? Isn't America at war in Iraq at the moment? Are you not killing babies in abortion clinics? Funny how you skeptics bring up the wars and "God killing babies" argument to attack the Bible, Christians and Jews, yet in doing so, you skeptics come off as hypocrites. Who is the hypocrite now?
OK, let's calm down a bit :)
American did exactly that to the Native Indians. I wasn't around then and had no say so in it happening. Also, i think it it is a very bad chapter in our history and don't condone it. Remember Wounded Knee?
I am not killing babies in an abortion clinic nor do i think abortion is right and would not advocate abortion if i got someone pregnant and did not when i my Daughter was conceived when i was 22.
So your assertion of my hypocrisy doesn't hold here.
However the flawed assertion of God's hypocrisy does hold in the Bible.
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However the flawed assertion of God's hypocrisy does hold in the Bible.
Okay, one, two, three....breath. I'm calm now. ;D
Christians and Jews do not see the so called "hypocrisy" that you see. We believe that you are mistaken and simply need further study.
Have you even read the Bible from cover to cover? Because you seem surprised by a lot of very popular Bible verses that have been the object of debate for many years, like Isaiah 45:7.
You are mistaken if you think that I see this so called "hypocrisy" and that I am trying to hide or deny it. If I saw what you see, I would still be where you are now. But thank God I am way past that point after 20+ years of reading and studying the Bible, history, theology and biblical archeology.
Yeah, except for what's Caesars...... ::)
Ozmo,
What exactly are you talking about here? Paying taxes?
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Okay, one, two, three....breath. I'm calm now. ;D
Christians and Jews do not see the so called "hypocrisy" that you see. We believe that you are mistaken and simply need further study.
Have you even read the Bible from cover to cover? Because you seem surprised by a lot of very popular Bible verses that have been the object of debate for many years, like Isaiah 45:7.
You are mistaken if you think that I see this so called "hypocrisy" and that I am trying to hide or deny it. If I saw what you see, I would still be where you are now. But thank God I am way past that point after 20+ years of reading and studying the Bible, history, theology and biblical archeology.
Ozmo,
What exactly are you talking about here? Paying taxes?
I've read the Bible cover to cover and some books 2-5 times. But that was many years ago. I don't have the recall i once had regarding it because my interests have changed over time and i formed my opinions about organized religion in general around that time about 10 years ago. I was found by God in a Christian Church and believe his word resides in the Bible but not 100%, that's all.
My point about taxes was that "it's all Gods" creation. Without the physical material it wouldn't be possible to have taxes.
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Many of the principles of modern science were recorded as facts of nature in the Bible long before scientist confirmed them experimentally. A sampling of these would include:
Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)
Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)
Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)
Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)
Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)
Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)
Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)
Gravitational field (Job 26:7)
Space and stars are too large to be measured or counted. (Jeremiah 33:22, Genesis 15:5)
Attempts by scientists to number the astronomical bodies went on until 1932. ;D
and many others.
Checkable Biblical Accuracy
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Charts/CheckableBiblicalAccuracy.html
Hahaha! These are translated from Hebrew? That didn't have that terminology back then! These are words that are put in by modern day Bible publications. Which by the way is wrong according to the Bible. Nothing shall be added or taken away. ::)
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Hahaha! These are translated from Hebrew? That didn't have that terminology back then! These are words that are put in by modern day Bible publications. Which by the way is wrong according to the Bible. Nothing shall be added or taken away. ::)
Yes. By the way, I've read the Bible in more languages than just English. You assume too much.
Oh, and did you know that a Presbyterian minister cannot graduate seminary before learning Hebrew and Greek first?
Nobody is adding anything. It has been there for centuries. Read it.
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Yes. By the way, I've read the Bible in more languages than just English. You assume too much.
Oh, and did you know that a Presbyterian minister cannot graduate seminary before learning Hebrew and Greek first?
Nobody is adding anything. It has been there for centuries. Read it.
Didin't say "nobody" I said nothing. Translations change original meanings. For example:
In revelation one Bible speaks of the beast coming from the east. Another speaks of it coming from the far east.
East is and far east are two different places. Far east is understood as Asia.
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Didin't say "nobody" I said nothing. Translations change original meanings. For example:
In revelation one Bible speaks of the beast coming from the east. Another speaks of it coming from the far east.
East is and far east are two different places. Far east is understood as Asia.
About scientific facts, these are not stated in the Bible in the technical jargon of modern science, of course, but in terms of the basic world of man's everyday experience; nevertheless, they are completely in accord with the most modern scientific facts.
For example:
From ancient biblical times until 1932 different people and scientists attempted to number(count) the astronomical bodies.
Yet the Bible always have said:
Jeremiah 33:22
"As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me"
Genesis 15:5
Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
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About scientific facts, these are not stated in the Bible in the technical jargon of modern science, of course, but in terms of the basic world of man's everyday experience; nevertheless, they are completely in accord with the most modern scientific facts.
For example:
From ancient biblical times until 1932 different people and scientists attempted to number the astronomical bodies.
Yet the Bible always have said:
Jeremiah 33:22
"As the host of heaven cannot be numbered"
So heaven is defined as "endless space"? That's translation that Bible believers would use to prove outer space was known before it was discovered. LOL. Next thing you know, once we actually find a way to travel into space safely, you'll try to find something that fits into that. Actual find it now, because eventually it will happen.
Now remember a "horseless carraige" is not the same thing as a "space ship"! ;D
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So heaven is defined as "endless space"? That's translation that Bible believers would use to prove outer space was known before it was discovered. LOL. Next thing you know, once we actually find a way to travel into space safely, you'll try to find something that fits into that. Actual find it now, because eventually it will happen.
Now remember a "horseless carraige" is not the same thing as a "space ship"! ;D
Did you not read my post? Scientists had been trying to count the stars for many years, yet the Bible have always said that they cannot be counted. And this is just one small example.
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Did you not read my post? Scientists had been trying to count the stars for many years, yet the Bible have always said that they cannot be counted. And this is just one small example.
That's your proof that the Bible is the answer to all questions? LOL. Wow. I'm convinced now! ::)
Now show me where it talks about spaceships.
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That's your proof that the Bible is the answer to all questions? LOL. Wow. I'm convinced now! ::)
Now show me where it talks about spaceships.
What question? This should at least make you want to learn more about this stuff.
How do you explain that ancient texts are ahead of the science of its time? Did you even look at all the other evidence I posted? Oh, and then there is history and archeology. Don't even get me started on that.
You can laugh and roll your eyes all you want, but people of science have looked at this and wondered how it can be explained. Some have become believers.
But there is no worse blind man than the one who doesn't want to see.
Oldschool Flip, I'm praying for you. God bless you and your wife!
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What question? This should at least make you want to learn more about this stuff.
Learn from a book that CLAIMS to be the Word of God, of whom there is no proof exists? Yes, I have no proof that he doesn't exist, but I don't believe in vampires, werewolves, psychics, or para-normal events either.
How do you explain that ancient texts are ahead of the science of its time? Did you even look at all the other evidence I posted? Oh, and then there is history and archeology. Don't even get me started on that.
Easy. You translate it into what you want. Just like a psychic, if this are vague enough to seem real, some people will believe in it.
You can laugh and roll your eyes all you want, but people of science have looked at this and wondered how it can be explained. Some have become believers.
Hahahaha. You mean theological scientists? ::)
But there is no worse blind man than the one who doesn't want to see.
Unless that blind man uses his others senses to understand whats really going on.
Oldschool Flip, I'm praying for you. God bless you and your wife!
No need to pray, I'm doing better than most Christians who beg God for a better life.
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Learn from a book that CLAIMS to be the Word of God, of whom there is no proof exists? Yes, I have no proof that he doesn't exist, but I don't believe in vampires, werewolves, psychics, or para-normal events either.
Easy. You translate it into what you want. Just like a psychic, if this are vague enough to seem real, some people will believe in it.
Hahahaha. You mean theological scientists? ::)
Unless that blind man uses his others senses to understand whats really going on.
No need to pray, I'm doing better than most Christians who beg God for a better life.
I pray for you anyway.
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Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)
Isaiah 40:22
[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.
The word here is "Circle". The earth isn't a circle.
The Hebrew word used for "Circle" is "chuwg" which means..
1) circle, circuit, compass
2) (BDB) vault (of the heavens)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Isa
&chapter=40&verse=22&strongs=02329&page= (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Isa&chapter=40&verse=
22&strongs=02329&page=)
This is implying that the earth is a flat circle. Not a rough sphere as we know of it today.
Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)
Isaiah 55:9
For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.]For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
How does this give the idea that the universe is almost infinite?
This says that the "heavens" are "higher". This doesn't mean much of anything other than what it says. Hebrew root "gabahh" meaning "lofty" or "tall".
Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)
That's quite a stretch...
II Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
I can't even tell what you're getting at here to even refute it.
Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)
Ecclesiastes 1:7
All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea [is] not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
The idea that rivers went to the sea and the water supplied to the rivers came from the ocean as well was known for thousands of years prior to the Ecclesiastes even being written.
Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)
Psalm 102:25-27
Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens [are] the work of thy hands.
hey shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
But thou [art] the same, and thy years shall have no end.
This is simply saying that though the Earth will change, God won't. Basic religious idea. This has nothing to do with increasing 'entropy' or the laws of thermodynamics.
Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)
This had been known for a long long time prior to Leviticus being written.
Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)
Same as above.
Gravitational field (Job 26:7)
Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing.
This is the idea that the earth floats in empty space, Not the idea of "gravitational fields". That's quite a stretch.
Space and stars are too large to be measured or counted. (Jeremiah 33:22, Genesis 15:5)
This had been known for a long time as well. But this idea is not that there are somehow stars beyond what we can see. Just that there are too many that we do see to be counted. Nothing to do with advanced astronomical ideas.
Checkable Biblical Accuracy
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Charts/CheckableBiblicalAccuracy.html
I think you should look at other websites opposed to just pro creationism websites. You seem to be referencing the same websites over and over.
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Easy. You translate it into what you want. Just like a psychic, if this are vague enough to seem real, some people will believe in it.
Wrong. The text is not vague and requires no translation. It is very clear.
Hahahaha. You mean theological scientists? ::)
So according to you, only "theological scientists" believe in God? ::)
Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)
Copernicus was the Polish astronomer who put forward the first mathematically based system of planets going around the sun. He attended various European universities, and became a Canon in the Catholic church in 1497. His new system was actually first presented in the Vatican gardens in 1533 before Pope Clement VII who approved, and urged Copernicus to publish it around this time. Copernicus was never under any threat of religious persecution - and was urged to publish both by Catholic Bishop Guise, Cardinal Schonberg, and the Protestant Professor George Rheticus. Copernicus referred sometimes to God in his works, and did not see his system as in conflict with the Bible.
Sir Fancis Bacon (1561-1627)
Bacon was a philosopher who is known for establishing the scientific method of inquiry based on experimentation and inductive reasoning. In De Interpretatione Naturae Prooemium, Bacon established his goals as being the discovery of truth, service to his country, and service to the church. Although his work was based upon experimentation and reasoning, he rejected atheism as being the result of insufficient depth of philosophy, stating, "It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion; for while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them confederate, and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity." (Of Atheism)
Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
Kepler was a brilliant mathematician and astronomer. He did early work on light, and established the laws of planetary motion about the sun. He also came close to reaching the Newtonian concept of universal gravity - well before Newton was born! His introduction of the idea of force in astronomy changed it radically in a modern direction. Kepler was an extremely sincere and pious Lutheran, whose works on astronomy contain writings about how space and the heavenly bodies represent the Trinity. Kepler suffered no persecution for his open avowal of the sun-centered system, and, indeed, was allowed as a Protestant to stay in Catholic Graz as a Professor (1595-1600) when other Protestants had been expelled!
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar system was published in 1633. It had no proofs of a sun-centered system (Galileo's telescope discoveries did not indicate a moving earth) and his one "proof" based upon the tides was invalid. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Since his work finished by putting the Pope's favorite argument in the mouth of the simpleton in the dialogue, the Pope (an old friend of Galileo's) was very offended. After the "trial" and being forbidden to teach the sun-centered system, Galileo did his most useful theoretical work, which was on dynamics. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, and saw his system as an alternate interpretation of the biblical texts.
Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
Descartes was a French mathematician, scientist and philosopher who has been called the father of modern philosophy. His school studies made him dissatisfied with previous philosophy: He had a deep religious faith as a Roman Catholic, which he retained to his dying day, along with a resolute, passionate desire to discover the truth. At the age of 24 he had a dream, and felt the vocational call to seek to bring knowledge together in one system of thought. His system began by asking what could be known if all else were doubted - suggesting the famous "I think therefore I am". Actually, it is often forgotten that the next step for Descartes was to establish the near certainty of the existence of God - for only if God both exists and would not want us to be deceived by our experiences - can we trust our senses and logical thought processes. God is, therefore, central to his whole philosophy. What he really wanted to see was that his philosophy be adopted as standard Roman Catholic teaching. Rene Descartes and Francis Bacon (1561-1626) are generally regarded as the key figures in the development of scientific methodology. Both had systems in which God was important, and both seem more devout than the average for their era.
Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
In optics, mechanics, and mathematics, Newton was a figure of undisputed genius and innovation. In all his science (including chemistry) he saw mathematics and numbers as central. What is less well known is that he was devoutly religious and saw numbers as involved in understanding God's plan for history from the Bible. He did a considerable work on biblical numerology, and, though aspects of his beliefs were not orthodox, he thought theology was very important. In his system of physics, God is essential to the nature and absoluteness of space. In Principia he stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being."
Robert Boyle (1791-1867)
One of the founders and key early members of the Royal Society, Boyle gave his name to "Boyle's Law" for gases, and also wrote an important work on chemistry. Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "By his will he endowed a series of Boyle lectures, or sermons, which still continue, 'for proving the Christian religion against notorious infidels...' As a devout Protestant, Boyle took a special interest in promoting the Christian religion abroad, giving money to translate and publish the New Testament into Irish and Turkish. In 1690 he developed his theological views in The Christian Virtuoso, which he wrote to show that the study of nature was a central religious duty." Boyle wrote against atheists in his day (the notion that atheism is a modern invention is a myth), and was clearly much more devoutly Christian than the average in his era.
Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
Michael Faraday was the son of a blacksmith who became one of the greatest scientists of the 19th century. His work on electricity and magnetism not only revolutionized physics, but led to much of our lifestyles today, which depends on them (including computers and telephone lines and, so, web sites). Faraday was a devoutly Christian member of the Sandemanians, which significantly influenced him and strongly affected the way in which he approached and interpreted nature. Originating from Presbyterians, the Sandemanians rejected the idea of state churches, and tried to go back to a New Testament type of Christianity.
Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)
Mendel was the first to lay the mathematical foundations of genetics, in what came to be called "Mendelianism". He began his research in 1856 (three years before Darwin published his Origin of Species) in the garden of the Monastery in which he was a monk. Mendel was elected Abbot of his Monastery in 1868. His work remained comparatively unknown until the turn of the century, when a new generation of botanists began finding similar results and "rediscovered" him (though their ideas were not identical to his). An interesting point is that the 1860's was notable for formation of the X-Club, which was dedicated to lessening religious influences and propagating an image of "conflict" between science and religion. One sympathizer was Darwin's cousin Francis Galton, whose scientific interest was in genetics (a proponent of eugenics - selective breeding among humans to "improve" the stock). He was writing how the "priestly mind" was not conducive to science while, at around the same time, an Austrian monk was making the breakthrough in genetics. The rediscovery of the work of Mendel came too late to affect Galton's contribution.
William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907)
Kelvin was foremost among the small group of British scientists who helped to lay the foundations of modern physics. His work covered many areas of physics, and he was said to have more letters after his name than anyone else in the Commonwealth, since he received numerous honorary degrees from European Universities, which recognized the value of his work. He was a very committed Christian, who was certainly more religious than the average for his era. Interestingly, his fellow physicists George Gabriel Stokes (1819-1903) and James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) were also men of deep Christian commitment, in an era when many were nominal, apathetic, or anti-Christian. The Encyclopedia Britannica says "Maxwell is regarded by most modern physicists as the scientist of the 19th century who had the greatest influence on 20th century physics; he is ranked with Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein for the fundamental nature of his contributions." Lord Kelvin was an Old Earth creationist, who estimated the Earth's age to be somewhere between 20 million and 100 million years, with an upper limit at 500 million years based on cooling rates (a low estimate due to his lack of knowledge about radiogenic heating).
Max Planck (1858-1947)
Planck made many contributions to physics, but is best known for quantum theory, which revolutionized our understanding of the atomic and sub-atomic worlds. In his 1937 lecture "Religion and Naturwissenschaft," Planck expressed the view that God is everywhere present, and held that "the holiness of the unintelligible Godhead is conveyed by the holiness of symbols." Atheists, he thought, attach too much importance to what are merely symbols. Planck was a churchwarden from 1920 until his death, and believed in an almighty, all-knowing, beneficent God (though not necessarily a personal one). Both science and religion wage a "tireless battle against skepticism and dogmatism, against unbelief and superstition" with the goal "toward God!"
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
Unless that blind man uses his others senses to understand whats really going on.
You are not really blind, you just don't want to see. Therefore, your other senses don't work as well as a real blind man's would.
No need to pray, I'm doing better than most Christians who beg God for a better life.
Still praying for ya.
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Pray for people that need it more than me. ::) With all this praying in the world going on, you'd figure that all the violence and corruption amonst mankind would cease to exist.
Just like our genes haven't changed in the past few thousand years, neither have our behaviors. Like ALL animals we want to procreate to ensure our genes are carried on to the next generation. However, humans have the knowledge to intimidate without physical confrontation. Using strong enough words and scare tactics will get enough people to bow down.
As much "evidence" as you have about God's creating man and having dominance over him, the biggest fear ALL Christians have would be to find out that it was all a hoax. Create fear and you have power.
It's all around us. Not just in religion, but politics, jobs, sports, etc.
What's really great is since I have renounced my faith in any religion, personal, financial, and success has been easier. Guess God had this in store for me , huh? ::)
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The word here is "Circle". The earth isn't a circle.
This is implying that the earth is a flat circle. Not a rough sphere as we know of it today.
A circle is round. The earth is round. The Bible never says that the earth is a "flat" circle or a "disk". You are the one stretching the truth, then you accuse me of doing the same.
Roundness of the earth
Isaiah 40:22
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth"
Proverbs 8:27
"When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep"
COMMON BELIEF OF DAY IN WHICH AUTHOR LIVED: The earth was NOT round. It was flat.
Earth is not physically supported.
Job 26:7
"he suspends the earth over nothing"
COMMON BELIEF OF DAY IN WHICH AUTHOR LIVED: Earth held up by four elephants or Atlas (a man), etc.
Space and stars are too large to be measured or counted.
Jeremiah 33:22"
I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars of the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.' "
Genesis 15:5
He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
COMMON BELIEF OF DAY IN WHICH AUTHOR LIVED:
Attempts to number the astronomical bodies went on until 1932.
Blood is essential to life.
Leviticus 17:11-14
"For the life of a creature is in the blood"
COMMON BELIEF OF DAY IN WHICH AUTHOR LIVED:
Disease and spirits reside in blood. To cure disease, bleed patient.
I think you should look at other websites opposed to just pro creationism websites.
I read opposing views all the time. I believe that it is a great way to learn. Very interesting stuff and very intelligent and well educated people, but you skeptics all contradict yourselves and your arguments are weak.
You seem to be referencing the same websites over and over.
I have referenced the same website many times, but that's because people won't read it. So I'll keep referencing the same website until people read it. I have also referenced many other websites too.
I have been studying the Bible, world history and science long before there was a World Wide Web, Google and Wikipedia.
Having said that, I still learn from you and others who post here. ;D
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As much "evidence" as you have about God's creating man and having dominance over him, the biggest fear ALL Christians have would be to find out that it was all a hoax. Create fear and you have power.
I have faith. I do not need evidence. The evidence is not for me. The evidence is to give a reason for my faith and to plant a seed that will hopefully help others seek Jesus Christ.
I do not have fear to find out that it all is a hoax. My faith is not based on this evidence. Before I knew the evidence, I heard and read the Word of God and I believed in Jesus Christ by faith.
Jesus Christ changed my life and He changed me.
I cannot prove to you that God exists, or that the Bible is the word of God, or that Jesus can save you. All I can do is share my experience with you and present you with evidence.
In the end, we are saved only by grace, through faith.
What's really great is since I have renounced my faith in any religion, personal, financial, and success has been easier. Guess God had this in store for me , huh? ::)
Congratulations! I'm very happy for you!
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So what? How and why is it a cop out? Because you say so? I am not avoiding anything. Am I denying any of your claims of God killing people? No Christian or Jew will deny the flood, wars, the 10 plagues. What else do you want?
You believe it's murder. Fine. Believe it. We don't share your belief, or unbelief.
We don't believe it is murder because we believe God created life and only God can rightly and justly take it away whenever He wants to, however He wants to.
Not only that, but everything we have belongs to God. From God it all came and God can take it away if He wants to, when He wants to and however He wants to.
Job 1:21
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart.
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised."
Amen!
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A circle is round. The earth is round. The Bible never says that the earth is a "flat" circle or a "disk". You are the one stretching the truth, then you accuse me of doing the same.
Roundness of the earth
Isaiah 40:22
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth"
Proverbs 8:27
"When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep"
No. Circles aren't the same things as spheres. Spheres are round from all angles. Circles aren't.
The Hebrew word used for "Circle" is "chuwg" which means..
1) circle, circuit, compass
2) (BDB) vault (of the heavens)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Isa
&chapter=40&verse=22&strongs=02329&page= (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Isa
&chapter=40&verse=22&strongs=02329&page=)
The concept of the circle here is talking about the flat earth, as a circle, and the sky stretched out over it as a tent. As it clearly says.
COMMON BELIEF OF DAY IN WHICH AUTHOR LIVED: The earth was NOT round. It was flat.
Earth is not physically supported.
Job 26:7
"he suspends the earth over nothing"
COMMON BELIEF OF DAY IN WHICH AUTHOR LIVED: Earth held up by four elephants or Atlas (a man), etc.
Space and stars are too large to be measured or counted.
Jeremiah 33:22"
I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars of the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.' "
Genesis 15:5
He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
COMMON BELIEF OF DAY IN WHICH AUTHOR LIVED:
Attempts to number the astronomical bodies went on until 1932.
Blood is essential to life.
Leviticus 17:11-14
"For the life of a creature is in the blood"
COMMON BELIEF OF DAY IN WHICH AUTHOR LIVED:
Disease and spirits reside in blood. To cure disease, bleed patient.
I've addressed all of this already. Please read my post.
I read opposing views all the time. I believe that it is a great way to learn. Very interesting stuff and very intelligent and well educated people, but you skeptics all contradict yourselves and your arguments are weak.
1. If you read opposing views then why haven't you had experience with the arguments I'm presenting against your assertions? If you had, you would of addressed them and not ignored them.
2. How do I contradict myself? How are my arguments weak?
I have referenced the same website many times, but that's because people won't read it. So I'll keep referencing the same website until people read it. I have also referenced many other websites too.
I have read it, I have refuted it.
I have been studying the Bible, world history and science long before there was a World Wide Web, Google and Wikipedia.
I find that a bit hard to believe.
Having said that, I still learn from you and others who post here. ;D
I find that a bit hard to believe as well.
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No. Circles aren't the same things as spheres. Spheres are round from all angles. Circles aren't.
Circles are round, spheres are round, the earth is round. What's your point?
Skeptics have argued before that the Bible implies a "flat square with four corners." in one place. But they too are wrong because the Bible is simply talking about North, South, East and West in that verse. So they disagree with your "disk" theory.
The concept of the circle here is talking about the flat earth, as a circle, and the sky stretched out over it as a tent. As it clearly says.
You are taking a Bible verse and stretching the truth with it to fit your argument, just like many cults do.
I've addressed all of this already. Please read my post.
No. You keep saying "This had been known for a long long time prior." which is not true and you post no reference.
I re-posted some of the Bible accuracies because you had replied to Tre telling him that I didn't quote the Bible verses, but that I was making stuff up. I noticed you went back and changed your post, deleting that part. Thank you!
1. If you read opposing views then why haven't you had experience with the arguments I'm presenting against your assertions? If you had, you would of addressed them and not ignored them.
What do you mean by I haven't had experience with your arguments? How have I not addressed them? I am pressed for time. Is there one in particular that you would like me to address?
Oh, and it is "you would have addressed" not "you would of addressed." And you give usmokepole a hard time for his grammar.
2. How do I contradict myself? How are my arguments weak?
Relax. I wasn't talking about you specifically. I was talking about the opposing sources that I have read. One example is some skeptics say the Gospels were written around 135 AD, while others say no, they were written around 45 AD. Some say there was no census when Jesus was born, others say that there was, while others say that we don't know for sure.
But now that I remember, you say the Bible implies the earth is a flat disk, while other skeptics say the Bible implies a flat squre with four corners.
I have read it, I have refuted it.
And I thank you, but you only picked a few. There is a long list. Why don't you go through it and refute all of them at your convenience. And please post references when you simply say "This had been known for a long long time prior."
I find that a bit hard to believe.
Actually, I should never brag about how much I have studied or how much I know. So I should have never said that. I just wanted it to be known that I didn't just start reading the Bible yesterday, that I don't just copy and paste stuff from google and Wikipedia, and that I am not here simply repeating what my preacher said last Sunday. ;D
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I have faith. I do not need evidence. The evidence is not for me. The evidence is to give a reason for my faith and to plant a seed that will hopefully help others seek Jesus Christ.
But if you didn't feel that you were in the right with the "Lord" you would FEAR the consequences from the faith you believe in.
I do not have fear to find out that it all is a hoax. My faith is not based on this evidence. Before I knew the evidence, I heard and read the Word of God and I believed in Jesus Christ by faith.
And fear.
Jesus Christ changed my life and He changed me.
Actually you changed you life. YOU made the decision to have faith. Jesus or God had nothing to do with that. You could easily change you mind and "unbelieve" and that would still be YOUR choice. Again Jesus or God would have nothing to do with that.
I cannot prove to you that God exists, or that the Bible is the word of God, or that Jesus can save you. All I can do is share my experience with you and present you with evidence.
Though I no longer believe in God or Jesus, I am amazed at how strong people faith is and how far and what sacrifices they are willing to give up to be with their Lord. Takes discipline to do that.
Congratulations! I'm very happy for you!
I'm happy for me too. ;D
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But if you didn't feel that you were in the right with the "Lord" you would FEAR the consequences from the faith you believe in.
If I didn't feel that I was in the right with The Lord, I would not be afraid of hell, if that's what you mean. I know for sure that I am not going to hell no matter what I do since Jesus Christ already died for my sins.
Then why do I not live a life of fornication, adultery, abortion, drunkenness, stealing time and office supplies from my employer? Why do I help the homeless, the widows and the orphans? Why do I care about the souls and well being of people on getbig, people whose names I don't even know? Why do I bother? Not out of fear, but out of love for the Lord and out of the love for my neighbor. And where does this love come from? Jesus Christ. Where does my faith come from? Jesus Christ. My faith does not come from me. I didn't change me. Jesus Christ changed me.
Ephesians 2:8
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"
Romans 10:17
"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."
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If I didn't feel that I was in the right with The Lord, I would not be afraid of hell, if that's what you mean. I know for sure that I am not going to hell no matter what I do since Jesus Christ already died for my sins.
Then why do I not live a life of fornication, adultery, abortion, drunkenness, stealing time and office supplies from my employer? Why do I help the homeless, the widows and the orphans? Why do I care about the souls and well being of people on getbig, people whose names I don't even know? Why do I bother? Not out of fear, but out of love for the Lord and out of the love for my neighbor. And where does this love come from? Jesus Christ. Where does my faith come from? Jesus Christ. My faith does not come from me. I didn't change me. Jesus Christ changed me.
Funny I have those same traits and Jesus Christ didn't influence me. Common sense did. You ALWAYS get ahead in life if you are a nicer person. Maybe not in the business world, but I feel that even a nice business executive would be more respected than one who didn't. People in Africa don't all have Jesus Christ and some of the people that are portrayed are people who are humble and give you as much as they could if they had it.
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Oldschool i think you right about what we talked about earlier ;D
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So here's a question: If Cho Seung Hui was a Christian, and according to some reports I've have heard here on radio he was, if he has accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior, is he going to heaven?
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It's a get out of jail free card.
;D
Of course he's going to heaven.
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It's a get out of jail free card.
Free? No, not free. A very high price was paid.
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So here's a question: If Cho Seung Hui was a Christian, and according to some reports I've have heard here on radio he was, if he has accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior, is he going to heaven?
You are kidding, right? He was no Christian. You should know that.
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Funny I have those same traits and Jesus Christ didn't influence me. Common sense did. You ALWAYS get ahead in life if you are a nicer person. Maybe not in the business world, but I feel that even a nice business executive would be more respected than one who didn't. People in Africa don't all have Jesus Christ and some of the people that are portrayed are people who are humble and give you as much as they could if they had it.
Then you are a good and moral man by your own merits and I commend you!
I don't claim to be good. I claim to be only a sinner who has been forgiven and transformed by Jesus Christ. I have nothing to brag about except Jesus Christ. I have nothing to boast about except Jesus Christ.
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Free? No, not free. A very high price was paid.
Yes, very free. EXTREMELY FREE.
It doesn't cost anyone anything. They just say: I accpet that Christ died on the corss for my sins and everything is forgiven. then if they have sex with men and do crank or meth and lead a church they still are forgiven. So why try?
ANd what of the price paid by Jesus?
What price? lol
He was GOD on earth who went through death....something every human goes through. EVERYONE. And Jesus did it by choice, not like the ones who died under Moses's hand by GOD order.
And his suffering? He suffered for a day. People routinely get torture for months, endure slow painful deaths, watch their children die in front of them by Wars or Evils god created, and GOD let's this happen and you want to make a BIG deal of Jesus all powerful God dying on the cross and some ultimate sacrifice?
Oh please.
Did GOd (Jesus) have to worry or fear about anything? no.
Sometimes, loco, Christians are so easily manipulated by guilt.
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Then you are a good and moral man by your own merits and I commend you!
I don't claim to be good. I claim to be only a sinner who has been forgiven and transformed by Jesus Christ. I have nothing to brag about except Jesus Christ. I have nothing to boast about except Jesus Christ.
loco, you sell God's creation (you) short.
too bad, you have this opinion of God's creation.
God is in all of us, we all have to power to live a good life by the power of choice he gave us. It is very possible to liv e by the ten commandments. But it isn't possible to live by all the crap rule and things religion calls sin....you know why? because that's how they manipulate you. they make you try an deny your humanity.....something God gave you.
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You are kidding, right? He was no Christian. You should know that.
How do you know who's a Christian or not? If he accepted Christ as his savior then he was.
Don't Christians routinely sell the idea that all you have to do is accept Christ as your savior?
Or is that not true and is all the preachers lying?
what if "god" told him to do it? How do you know he didn't? How do you know GOD, did another one of his chicken shit things and had some one else do the killing for him?
Christians are so quick to judge.
(before you respond, remember i am a very devote believer in GOD. I just don't believe in the BS organized religion's manipulative crap such as what's twisted as interpretations of the Bible and it's obvious lack of being 100% God's word. )
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Circles are round, spheres are round, the earth is round. What's your point?
Spheres are round from all angles. Circles aren't.
Skeptics have argued before that the Bible implies a "flat square with four corners." in one place. But they too are wrong because the Bible is simply talking about North, South, East and West in that verse. So they disagree with your "disk" theory.
"Corners" and "directions" aren't the same thing.
You are taking a Bible verse and stretching the truth with it to fit your argument, just like many cults do.
Nope...
Isa 40:22
[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
No. You keep saying "This had been known for a long long time prior." which is not true and you post no reference.
What do you mean by I haven't had experience with your arguments? How have I not addressed them? I am pressed for time. Is there one in particular that you would like me to address?
You haven't addressed them because you never replied to them. Read this post and reply to every argument I refuted of yours.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic
=141898.msg2026835#msg2026835 (http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic
=141898.msg2026835#msg2026835)
Relax. I wasn't talking about you specifically. I was talking about the opposing sources that I have read. One example is some skeptics say the Gospels were written around 135 AD, while others say no, they were written around 45 AD. Some say there was no census when Jesus was born, others say that there was, while others say that we don't know for sure.
Which bible skeptics say the Gospels were written around 45AD?
But now that I remember, you say the Bible implies the earth is a flat disk, while other skeptics say the Bible implies a flat squre with four corners.
It does both. Two different authors wrote both of those implications.
And I thank you, but you only picked a few. There is a long list. Why don't you go through it and refute all of them at your convenience. And please post references when you simply say "This had been known for a long long time prior."
I refuted what you posted. I won't refute more until you acknowledge what I have already refuted.
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So OzmO and Oldschool Flip,
You guys are so familiar with God's plan of salivation, and you mock it. You are now without excuse. You two will stand before a holy God and give an account for what you are posting here, along with everything else that you have done.
When did this murderer accept Jesus Christ? Before or during the shooting? Or was it right before he shot himself? ::)
Does he represent to you what the average Christian is and does? Is that what Jesus preached? You believe that the average Christian, or that most Christians go around murdering people?
You are incapable of having an intelligent discussion or debate without insulting and mocking, which clearly shows the weakness in your arguments and convictions.
You guys claim to be so nice, good and moral on your own merits, yet you come here and mock other people's faith. You laugh, ridicule and insult others. You insult God and mock His Son and His wonderful plan of salvation which He provided for you. Even if you could get to heaven for being good, I have news for you guys, you fall short. So if Christians are wrong, you two are screwed. And if Christians are right, you two are still screwed.
Now OzmO and Oldschool Flip are joining Tre in proclaiming that all Jews and Christians are mass murderers. Good one, guys!
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So OzmO and Oldschool Flip,
You guys are so familiar with God's plan of salivation, and you mock it. You are now without excuse. You two will stand before a holy God and give an account for what you are posting here, along with everything else that you have done.
When did this murderer accept Jesus Christ? Before or during the shooting? Or was it right before he shot himself? ::)
Does he represent to you what the average Christian is and does? Is that what Jesus preached? You believe that the average Christian, or that most Christians go around murdering people?
You are incapable of having an intelligent discussion or debate without insulting and mocking, which clearly shows the weakness in your arguments and convictions.
You guys claim to be so nice, good and moral on your own merits, yet you come here and mock other people's faith. You laugh, ridicule and insult others. You insult God and mock His Son and His wonderful plan of salvation which He provided for you. Even if you could get to heaven for being good, I have news for you guys, you fall short. So if Christians are wrong, you two are screwed. And if Christians are right, you two are still screwed.
Now OzmO and Oldschool Flip are joining Tre in proclaiming that all Jews and Christians are mass murderers. Good one, guys!
Way to avoid the issues i brought up by casting judgment loco. I'm not surprised because it is very typical of most "thumper" style Christians.
You never answered the question: How do you know Cho wasn't a Christian? How do you know he didn't accept Jesus as his Savior in a Christian Church and was baptized long before he did his shooting?
You will not answer or ask your self those questions because it will conflict with what you've chose to believe, it will shatter your glass house, so then you immediately assume he wasn't a Christian. This is the kind of mistaken blind faith that leads to judgment which eventually leads to suffering in the name of religion. How many before you have twisted the words of this Bible and have used it to torture, repress and kill other people? If it (the bible) was the TRUE word of GOD, it would stand without question, it would be simple it's meaning would last for ages. Like: Thou shall not kill.
You will accept accountability based on the Bible and the Church but you will not hold the God in Exodus accountable for his own hypocrisy. Because if you did that your faith's legitimacy might unravel or be in question. Instead you cop it out by saying those men were God's creation and he has the right to kill them with out moral consequence. He took the lives of 3000 men, from 3000 mothers, for something very trivial. He did this by ordering other men to murder these 3000 people, after he commanded them not to kill. And this is your "loving" God as described in the Bible?
Yes, Jews and Chrstians has murdered millions in the name of God. It's a fact. Stop spinning it. So have millions of people been murdered int he name of other religions: Hindu, Budists, Muslim etc... Organized religion has it short comings.
And then you call my trivialization of Jesus's death on the cross as mocking what he did? No, i'm only putting in the proper perspective. People die much horrible deaths, and they are NOT GODS, Jesus was according to you. But what's more ridiculous, is you use Jesus suffering as something significant when HE chose it, and he's GOD who had nothing to fear, but you use it as a GUILT weapon. Very classic judgmental Christian ploy to manipulate and control.
So now we've come to this:
You two will stand before a holy God and give an account for what you are posting here, along with everything else that you have done.
Who do you think you are? You are God's voice now? You know God's wishes? You know what God's thinking now?
Oh the righteous!
Thump Thump.
All I've done is question you as you are so easy to quote the bible. but when you are called on dogma bull crap is called mocking? And then you say I'm incapable of having an intelligent discussion? ::)
It's a wonderful plan of salvation? No it's a get out of jail free card with a control collar called Guilt and low self esteem.
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So OzmO and Oldschool Flip,
You guys are so familiar with God's plan of salivation, and you mock it. You are now without excuse. You two will stand before a holy God and give an account for what you are posting here, along with everything else that you have done.
Man my list is going to be long...........
When did this murderer accept Jesus Christ? Before or during the shooting? Or was it right before he shot himself? ::)
Assumming that his family are devout Christians, and by the way his rants went on about priests and other Holy rituals, I am assuming he "might" also have been a Christian.
Does he represent to you what the average Christian is and does? Is that what Jesus preached? You believe that the average Christian, or that most Christians go around murdering people?
Of course he doesn't. I just posed a question. One that you haven't answered.
You are incapable of having an intelligent discussion or debate without insulting and mocking, which clearly shows the weakness in your arguments and convictions.
Actually it's more sarcasm then mocking and insulting. A lot of what I disbelieve is from a "book" written by followers.
You guys claim to be so nice, good and moral on your own merits, yet you come here and mock other people's faith. You laugh, ridicule and insult others. You insult God and mock His Son and His wonderful plan of salvation which He provided for you. Even if you could get to heaven for being good, I have news for you guys, you fall short. So if Christians are wrong, you two are screwed. And if Christians are right, you two are still screwed.
How would we be screwed if there is no heaven? And again, I never said Christians are bad, I am debating about the God they follow being an all loving God.
Now OzmO and Oldschool Flip are joining Tre in proclaiming that all Jews and Christians are mass murderers. Good one, guys!
Okay now you're having a meltdown. I posed a questions and you're turning it into me saying Christians are mass murderers. ::)
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So here's a question: If Cho Seung Hui was a Christian, and according to some reports I've have heard here on radio he was, if he has accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior, is he going to heaven?
And now, to answer your question... ;D
If Cho Seung Hui was a true Christian, if he in the past had accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior, then the only way that he could have done what he did is if he had truly gone insane before murdering those people. If that's the case and both of these are true, then yes, he is in heaven according to the Bible.
Ephesians 2:8-9
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."
Romans 3:23
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
If Cho Seung Hui was not insane, then according to the Bible, his actions prove that he was never a Christian even if he thought that he was.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
Matthew 7:16
"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"
Jude 4
"For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven"
Matthew 7:22-23
"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"
1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."
Matthew 7:13-14
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it
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Thanks, Stella! ;D
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The problem with the bible is that it's so vast, often vague and written by so many different authors that you can use it to support just about any view point you have. For instance I could claim that the bible opposes an afterlife (Ecclesiastes 9:5) or I could claim that humans existed before the other animals (Genesis 2:17-20), or I could even claim that the bible supports murdering an entire town of people including children, killing their livestock, piling up the bodies and all of their belongings into the street and torching it all as a burnt offering to God all simply for the town converting to another religion (Deuteronomy 13:13-19).
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And now, to answer your question... ;D
If Cho Seung Hui was a true Christian, if he in the past had accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior, then the only way that he could have done what he did is if he had truly gone insane before murdering those people. If that's the case and both of these are true, then yes, he is in heaven according to the Bible.
Now based on that, the latter wouldn't matter to Christians, if any Christians "hated" him for what he did, wouldn't they be sinning because he was accepted by God? Could Christians, whose children were killed and their lives taken away from their families, have "love" for this "soul"? And if they didn't then would they not be fit to be in heaven? Now from my previous understandings of heaven, it is PERFECT so there should be no hate.
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Now based on that, the latter wouldn't matter to Christians, if any Christians "hated" him for what he did, wouldn't they be sinning because he was accepted by God? Could Christians, whose children were killed and their lives taken away from their families, have "love" for this "soul"? And if they didn't then would they not be fit to be in heaven? Now from my previous understandings of heaven, it is PERFECT so there should be no hate.
Oldschool Flip,
Jesus Christ teaches that we ought to love every one, even our enemies, and not to hate anyone. I've witnessed Christians love and forgive the killer of their loved ones, even when the killer is still alive. So, yes, Christians whose children were killed by this guy could have love for him. They could hate him too. Either way, if they are true Christians, according to the Bible, they too will go to heaven because they have believed in Jesus Christ.
You are correct. There is no hating other persons in heaven, though God hates sin and we ought to hate sin too. Those true Christians who hate the killer now, if there really are any who hate him, will love him in heaven.
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The problem with the bible is that it's so vast, often vague and written by so many different authors that you can use it to support just about any view point you have
If that were true, then why couldn't Muslims base their religion entirely on the Bible? Why did they have to come up with their own book? Same goes for Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, etc. If what you are saying is true, why did they have to come up with their own book?
or I could even claim that the bible supports murdering an entire town of people including children, killing their livestock, piling up the bodies and all of their belongings into the street and torching it all as a burnt offering to God all simply for the town converting to another religion[/i] (Deuteronomy 13:13-19).
Wikidudeman,
Where did that quote come from? Not from the Bible. Where does it say to pile up bodies and burn them as an offering to God? The God of the Bible never required human sacrifice. God forbids it. Even after asking Abraham to offer his son, God stopped him.
This is what the Bible passage says, and it's talking about burning things, not people:
Deuteronomy 13:16 (King James Version)
16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
Deuteronomy 13:16 (New King James Version)
And you shall gather all its plunder into the middle of the street, and completely burn with fire the city and all its plunder, for the LORD your God. It shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again
Deuteronomy 13:16 (New International Version)
Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.
Deuteronomy 13:16 (New American Standard Bible)
Then you shall gather all its booty into the middle of its open square and burn the city and all its booty with fire as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God; and it shall be a ruin forever. It shall never be rebuilt.
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Oldschool Flip,
Jesus Christ teaches that we ought to love every one, even our enemies, and not to hate anyone.
See that's a ironic statement by Jesus. If you were to love someone, how could they be your enemy? I've witnessed Christians love and forgive the killer of their loved ones, even when the killer is still alive. So, yes, Christians whose children were killed by this guy could have love for him. They could hate him too. Either way, if they are true Christians, according to the Bible, they too will go to heaven because they have believed in Jesus Christ.
I also have witnessed people, by way of documentaries and such, forgiving people. Hate can really destroy you emotionally.
You are correct. There is no hating other persons in heaven, though God hates sin and we ought to hate sin too. Those true Christians who hate the killer now, if there really are any who hate him, will love him in heaven.
How is this? Please explain how if on Earth they hate him, but once in heaven they will love him.
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See that's a ironic statement by Jesus. If you were to love someone, how could they be your enemy?
Your enemies are those people who mean you and your loved ones harm. Christians ought to love those people, even while they mean us and our loved ones harm.
How is this? Please explain how if on Earth they hate him, but once in heaven they will love him.
As Christians grow spiritually, we become more and more like Jesus Christ, who loved even those who tortured and killed Him. Some Christians who hated people before, learn to love them later in life. But it is not until we get to heaven that we will truly attain perfection. Thus, if a Christian hates the murderer of a loved one, that Christian will eventually, in this life, forgive and love that murderer. If that Christian dies before growing spiritually to that point, that Christian will attain perfection in heaven anyway and love that murderer in heaven.
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Your enemies are those people who mean you and your loved ones harm. Christians ought to love those people, even while they mean us and our loved ones harm.
I see failure in this process because if someone broke into your home, threatened to kill you, then in your heart you would love them?
As Christians grow spiritually, we become more and more like Jesus Christ, who loved even those who tortured and killed Him. Some Christians who hated people before, learn to love them later in life. But it is not until we get to heaven that we will truly attain perfection. Thus, if a Christian hates the murderer of a loved one, that Christian will eventually, in this life, forgive and love that murderer. If that Christian dies before growing spiritually to that point, that Christian will attain perfection in heaven anyway and love that murderer in heaven.
It sounds as if when you die, and you didn't grow spiritually, that your mind is then made up for you once you get to heaven. Kinda like a dictatorship. Sounds wonderful. Not.
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If that were true, then why couldn't Muslims base their religion entirely on the Bible? Why did they have to come up with their own book? Same goes for Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, etc. If what you are saying is true, why did they have to come up with their own book?
I guess they wanted to say they had their own holy book.
Wikidudeman,
Where did that quote come from? Not from the Bible. Where does it say to pile up bodies and burn them as an offering to God? The God of the Bible never required human sacrifice. God forbids it. Even after asking Abraham to offer his son, God stopped him.
This is what the Bible passage says, and it's talking about burning things, not people:
Deuteronomy 13:16 (King James Version)
16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
Deuteronomy 13:16 (New King James Version)
And you shall gather all its plunder into the middle of the street, and completely burn with fire the city and all its plunder, for the LORD your God. It shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again
Deuteronomy 13:16 (New International Version)
Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.
Deuteronomy 13:16 (New American Standard Bible)
Then you shall gather all its booty into the middle of its open square and burn the city and all its booty with fire as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God; and it shall be a ruin forever. It shall never be rebuilt.
You forgot the rest...
Deuteronomy 13 King James Version
13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
17And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;
18When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.
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I guess they wanted to say they had their own holy book.
Right, you are guessing. Your statement is not a fact.
You forgot the rest...
Deuteronomy 13 King James Version
13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
17And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;
18When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.
I did not forget the rest. You quoted the Bible saying that they piled bodies and burnt them as a burnt offering to God. Where did you get that? Is not in the Bible, is it? How do you know they didn't bury the human bodies first, or outside the city? This is very significant because God did require burnt offering of animals, vegetables and "things", but never human flesh. So where did you get your earlier quote from?
or I could even claim that the bible supports murdering an entire town of people including children, killing their livestock, piling up the bodies and all of their belongings into the street and torching it all as a burnt offering to God all simply for the town converting to another religion[/i] (Deuteronomy 13:13-19).
Where did that quote come from? Not from the Bible. Where does it say to pile up bodies and burn them as an offering to God? The God of the Bible never required human sacrifice. God forbids it. Even after asking Abraham to offer his son, God stopped him.
This is what the Bible passage says, and it's talking about burning things, not people:
Deuteronomy 13:16 (King James Version)
16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
Deuteronomy 13:16 (New King James Version)
And you shall gather all its plunder into the middle of the street, and completely burn with fire the city and all its plunder, for the LORD your God. It shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again
Deuteronomy 13:16 (New International Version)
Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.
Deuteronomy 13:16 (New American Standard Bible)
Then you shall gather all its booty into the middle of its open square and burn the city and all its booty with fire as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God; and it shall be a ruin forever. It shall never be rebuilt.
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It sounds as if when you die, and you didn't grow spiritually, that your mind is then made up for you once you get to heaven. Kinda like a dictatorship. Sounds wonderful. Not.
The moment that people place their faith in Jesus Christ, they make up their mind to follow Him, to be like Jesus Christ and love everybody. At that moment, the spiritual growth begins. The flesh competes with the spirit for control. Satan and his demons take advantage of the flesh and use it as a weapon against Christians to temp them to sin and to hate others, even other Christians. As Christians grow spiritually, the spirit becomes stronger and takes more control over the flesh. As Christians grow stronger spiritually, we learn to love everyone, even those who mean to harm us and our loved ones.
The flesh and Satan are not in heaven. So that's one reason Christians attain true perfection in heaven. But their minds are already made up in this life to attain perfection and to be like Jesus Christ.
I see failure in this process because if someone broke into your home, threatened to kill you, then in your heart you would love them?
I know that I should, and I really do want to love this person. I know that God loves this person and that it is God's desire that this person repents and accepts Jesus as Lord and Saviour. Would I love this person? Depends on where I am in my spiritual growth at that moment. Many Christians have been put in this situation before and yes, they loved the person who broke into their house and threatened to harm them. Below is a good example:
Posted on Mar 14, 2005
ATLANTA (BP)--Ashley Smith, the Atlanta-area woman taken hostage by the subject of the largest manhunt in Georgia history March 12, calmed the alleged killer by reading an excerpt from "The Purpose-Driven Life" and talking with him about God. She escaped by persuading him to let her pick up her daughter from an AWANA children's program at a Southern Baptist church.
"I asked him if I could read," Smith, 26, said in recounting the ordeal to reporters outside her attorney's office March 13. "He said, 'What do you want to read?'
"'Well, I have a book in my room.' So I went and got it. I got my Bible, and I got a book called 'The Purpose-Driven Life.' I turned it to the chapter that I was on that day. It was chapter 33. And I started to read the first paragraph of it. After I read it, he said, 'Stop. Will you read it again?'
"So I read it again to him," Smith said.
On Day 33 of the book, author Rick Warren, a Southern Baptist pastor in California, writes, "We serve God by serving others. The world defines greatness in terms of power, possessions, prestige, and position. If you can demand service from others, you've arrived. In our self-serving culture with its me-first mentality, acting like a servant is not a popular concept."
The alleged gunman, Brian Nichols, overpowered an Atlanta courthouse deputy as he was being escorted to court for a rape trial March 11. He then shot and killed the presiding judge and a court reporter before killing another deputy as he left the courthouse. Later he killed a federal agent in an attempt to flee authorities.
Nichols, 33, held Smith at gunpoint outside her Duluth apartment around 2:30 a.m. March 12, apparently having chosen her at random as she returned from a trip to a nearby store. Once he removed his hat, she recognized him as the man wanted for the killing spree and chose to cooperate with his demands. He tied her up and then began to converse with her.
Smith asked Nichols not to kill her because she was scheduled to pick up her 5-year-old daughter the next morning. Four years ago, Smith's husband died in her arms after being stabbed in a knife fight, according to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, and Smith was concerned that her daughter would become an orphan.
M. Allen Hughes, administrative pastor at Hebron Baptist Church in Dacula, Ga., told Baptist Press he was under the impression Smith planned to pick up her daughter at the church's AWANA function Saturday morning.
"My understanding was that her little girl was participating and that she was supposed to come pick up her little girl and obviously didn't get to do that because of the situation," Hughes said. "Some relative picked up the little girl for her, and ... when the relative found out that she did not pick the little girl up, that's how they knew something was going on. That's pretty much all we know on this end."
As time passed during the early morning hours at the apartment, Nichols and Smith talked about God, family and life experiences while the fugitive apparently became more comfortable with the hostage. She began to help the gunman consider the families of the victims he had shot that day and asked him if he thought about how they might be feeling.
"After we began to talk, he said he thought that I was an angel sent from God and that I was his sister and he was my brother in Christ and that he was lost and God led him right to me to tell him that he had hurt a lot of people," Smith told reporters. "And the families -- the people -- to let him know how they felt because I had gone through it myself."
Nichols held photographs of Smith's family in his hands and said repeatedly that he did not want to hurt anyone else, according to a CNN transcript of Smith's statements to reporters.
"He said, 'Can I stay here for a few days? I just want to eat some real food and watch some TV and sleep and just do normal things that normal people do,'" Smith said.
As they continued to talk, Nichols mentioned that he considered his life to be over.
"He needed hope for his life. He told me that he was already dead," Smith told reporters. "He said, 'Look at me. Look at my eyes. I am already dead.' And I said, 'You are not dead. You are standing right in front of me. If you want to die, you can. It's your choice.'
"But after I started to read to him, he saw -- I guess he saw my faith and what I really believed in. And I told him I was a child of God and that I wanted to do God's will. I guess he began to want to. That's what I think," she said.
When he was hungry, Smith made pancakes for Nichols and they talked more about God.
"I said, 'Do you believe in miracles? Because if you don't believe in miracles -- you are here for a reason. You're here in my apartment for some reason. You got out of that courthouse with police everywhere, and you don't think that's a miracle? You don't think you're supposed to be sitting right here in front of me listening to me tell you, you know, your reason here?'
"I said, 'You know, your miracle could be that you need to -- you need to be caught for this,'" Smith continued. "'You need to go to prison and you need to share the Word of God with them, with all the prisoners there.'"
By 9:30 a.m., Nichols agreed to let Smith leave to pick up her daughter. When she reached the first stop sign on her route, Smith dialed 911 and within minutes a Gwinnett County police SWAT team had surrounded the apartment with Nichols inside, according to The Journal-Constitution. Nichols waved a white piece of cloth to signal his surrender and was taken into custody.
"I believe God brought him to my door so he couldn't hurt anyone else," Smith said.
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=20340
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It's interesting when you compare and contrast the often violent reactions of the God described in the OT versus the tempered reactions of Jesus who preached tolerance, compassion and love.
It's like they are 2 different people. On one hand we the God in Exodus who ordered the death of 3000 people for lacking faith and then you have Jesus in the NT preaching love thy enemy.
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Yes, very free. EXTREMELY FREE.
You are correct. It is free, for you. Eternal life through Jesus Christ is a gift from God. A gift is free...
It doesn't cost anyone anything.
...However, it wasn't free for Jesus. He suffered and died for your sins because He loves you.
They just say: I accpet that Christ died on the corss for my sins and everything is forgiven. then if they have sex with men and do crank or meth and lead a church they still are forgiven. So why try?
You are correct. Except once they accept Christ died on the cross for their sins and everything is forgiven, they no longer want to continue to live in their former life style. They still may have the temptation to do it and get instant pleasure and gratification from it, but they no longer have the desire to continue in that life style.
Their desire now is to grow spiritually, to live a selfless life, to love everyone and to bring others to Jesus Christ. Spiritual growth takes time and it is not easy.
ANd what of the price paid by Jesus?
What price? lol
He was GOD on earth who went through death....something every human goes through. EVERYONE. And Jesus did it by choice, not like the ones who died under Moses's hand by GOD order.
And his suffering? He suffered for a day. People routinely get torture for months, endure slow painful deaths, watch their children die in front of them by Wars or Evils god created, and GOD let's this happen and you want to make a BIG deal of Jesus all powerful God dying on the cross and some ultimate sacrifice?
Oh please.
You are correct. Many people suffer just as much if not more than Jesus suffered. Many people even suffer for things they didn't do. Some even suffer and die for loved ones.
The difference is that:
1. Only Jesus is sinless, perfect, spotless, blameless, guiltless. Only Jesus is an acceptable sacrifice for the atonement of other people's sins, for your sins. The suffering and death of all these other people cannot save you.
2. Jesus chose to die for your sins, because He loves you. Jesus died even for those who tortured and killed him.
Did GOd (Jesus) have to worry or fear about anything? no.
OzmO,
Why do you say that Jesus did not feel worry or fear? How do you know he didn't? I know that Jesus felt pain, physical and emotional pain, sorrow, maybe worry and maybe fear too.
He knew the future. So Jesus knew what He was about to endure which extended all of these unpleasant feelings.
Why then did Jesus go through all of this, having committed no sin? For you, Ozmo. So you can enjoy fellowship with God in this life and so that you can be with Him in the life to come.
Sometimes, loco, Christians are so easily manipulated by guilt.
OzmO,
People in general can be easily manipulated, Christians and non-Christians alike.
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It's interesting when you compare and contrast the often violent reactions of the God described in the OT versus the tempered reactions of Jesus who preached tolerance, compassion and love.
Yes, very interesting, isn't it? The God of the Old Testament seems angry, strict and judgemental. The God of the New Testament seems loving, laid back and kind. It's like two different Gods.
I now understand why and I will get into that later.
It's like they are 2 different people. On one hand we the God in Exodus who ordered the death of 3000 people for lacking faith and then you have Jesus in the NT preaching love thy enemy.
OzmO,
just out of curiosity, why do you keep bringing up that God killed 3000 people? God has killed many more than that. Remember the flood? God killed the entire world of the time, except for Noah and his family. Back then the world's population wasn't that much, but I'm sure it was way more than 3000 people, and I'm sure that included women and children.
Genesis 8:20-21
"Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: ‘Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.’"
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You are correct. It is free, for you. Eternal life through Jesus Christ is a gift from God. A gift is free...
...However, it wasn't free for Jesus. He suffered and died for your sins because He loves you.
You are correct. Except once they accept Christ died on the cross for their sins and everything is forgiven, they no longer want to continue to live in their former life style. They still may have the temptation to do it and get instant pleasure and gratification from it, but they no longer have the desire to continue in that life style.
Their desire now is to grow spiritually, to live a selfless life, to love everyone and to bring others to Jesus Christ. Spiritual growth takes time and it is not easy.
So.....If a person accepts Jesus Christ and continues to commit major sins then it is said he never truly did?
And.... IF a person accepts Jesus Christ and doesn't commit major sins then it is said he truly did?
So this Preacher who was the head of a BIG Church a few month ago, who did meth, commit adultery with a man, and cast down judgment as a pastor and routinely represented the word of God..... he never truly accepted Jesus?
I have a friend, who is a pastor (non-denominational) , who I've known for 20 years. He build a church. Is raising 4 daughters. Lives as much of a Christian life as i could imagine. Does not own a TV, all women in family were dresses etc....
Almost a year ago his wife left him. Not for another man, but just divorced him because she was unhappy. So my friend proceeds to start drinking, womanizing, and going to strip clubs and has been doing to this day.
So here we have a another pastor, who has truly accepted Jesus, who's sins now as a result of his perceived separation from God. I assert that if he needs the "gifts that accepting Jesus gives you" not to sin then he never was truly in heart desiring not to sin.
See that's where the problem with this view of salvation is: There are few consequences and it's all too easy to label someone one way or anther: "well then he never truly accepted Christ" or "You see, he's changed because of accepting Christ"
My point is this: People change when they make up their minds in their hearts to change. they draw on the power of God to do this and accepting Christ is one of many ways to do it. So when something happens like with my friend, His issue with God, doesn't change how he lives his life.
This is why, among many other reasons, i refute it as the only way.
OzmO,
Why do you say that Jesus did not feel worry or fear? How do you know he didn't? I know that Jesus felt pain, physical and emotional pain, sorrow, maybe worry and maybe fear too.
He knew the future. So Jesus knew what He was about to endure which extended all of these unpleasant feelings.
You ever play a video game loco? It's like you play the game and you know you cannot die. That's what an Omnipotent God would be dealing with on earth. It's like playing a video game.
Why then did Jesus go through all of this, having committed no sin? For you, Ozmo. So you can enjoy fellowship with God in this life and so that you can be with Him in the life to come.
That's available to anyone anytime. But it isn't the only way and the other ways are not set up as Christians like to make them out to be: Impossible because of original sin and that god, will not accept you unless you are free of sin. I know it says that in the Bible, but as we been discussing it's not the 100% word of God.
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Yes, very interesting, isn't it? The God of the Old Testament seems angry, strict and judgemental. The God of the New Testament seems loving, laid back and kind. It's like two different Gods.
I now understand why and I will get into that later.
OzmO,
just out of curiosity, why do you keep bringing up that God killed 3000 people? God has killed many more than that. Remember the flood? God killed the entire world of the time, except for Noah and his family. Back then the world's population wasn't that much, but I'm sure it was way more than 3000 people, and I'm sure that included women and children.
Genesis 8:20-21
"Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: ‘Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.’"
I keep bringing it up because it's something you and i have talked about. I know there are other things. Besides the way he kills 3000 people here is a good example of: "why the God of Exodus in some parts" isn't God in my opinion.
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OzmO, now I have some questions for you because I'm really curious:
This is why, among many other reasons, i refute it as the only way.
Do you believe that faith in Jesus Christ is A WAY to heaven? You do not believe that this plan of salvation is ridiculous and laughable?
the Bible, but as we been discussing it's not the 100% word of God.
What percentage of the Bible do you believe is the word of God? Can you quote which parts of the Bible you believe to be God's word?
the God of Exodus in some parts" isn't God in my opinion.
In what parts of Exodus is the God of Exodus God?
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OzmO, now I have some questions for you because I'm really curious:
Do you believe that faith in Jesus Christ is A WAY to heaven? You do not believe that this plan of salvation is ridiculous and laughable?
What percentage of the Bible do you believe is the word of God? Can you quote which parts of the Bible you believe to be God's word?
In what parts of Exodus is the God of Exodus God?
I believe that when the student is ready the Teacher Appears.
I believe that different people respond, based on their culture, moral compass, and personal experiences, upbringing etc.. to different approaches and that God makes it available to them, in different religions, so they can, if they so chose to pursue it. For Example: A young man in India, see his life as wicked and sinful decides to change his life. he does this by committing himself to the consistent set of moral principles you see in nearly every religion. What religion it is doesn't matter as much as he's decided to change and has decided to govern his life based on a living a good moral life. At this point he allows God to enter his life.
To me there is no difference in that versus accepting Jesus. People still fall from grace in both accounts, people still get back on track, etc.... It's the exclusivity of "Jesus is the only way" i refute as on another thread an estimated 80 billion souls will not go. What makes the "accepting Jesus way" faulty is that there is no accountability other after that fact speculation of whether or not he "truly" was accepting Jesus. It's as if it promotes not being responsible for one's actions..... The devil made me do it and I'm still saved anyway.
What percentage of the Bible do i believe is the word of God? I dunno, I'd have to see and review again everything statement in there, maybe 80%. I do know this: The God in Exodus who ordered the death of 3000 people is NOT God. Remember, History is written by the victors, maybe someone had to justify their "War Crimes". People have been doing it that way, Saying it was God who told them, since the begging of time.
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I believe that when the student is ready the Teacher Appears.
I believe that different people respond, based on their culture, moral compass, and personal experiences, upbringing etc.. to different approaches and that God makes it available to them, in different religions, so they can, if they so chose to pursue it. For Example: A young man in India, see his life as wicked and sinful decides to change his life. he does this by committing himself to the consistent set of moral principles you see in nearly every religion. What religion it is doesn't matter as much as he's decided to change and has decided to govern his life based on a living a good moral life. At this point he allows God to enter his life.
To me there is no difference in that versus accepting Jesus. People still fall from grace in both accounts, people still get back on track, etc.... It's the exclusivity of "Jesus is the only way" i refute as on another thread an estimated 80 billion souls will not go. What makes the "accepting Jesus way" faulty is that there is no accountability other after that fact speculation of whether or not he "truly" was accepting Jesus. It's as if it promotes not being responsible for one's actions..... The devil made me do it and I'm still saved anyway.
What percentage of the Bible do i believe is the word of God? I dunno, I'd have to see and review again everything statement in there, maybe 80%. I do know this: The God in Exodus who ordered the death of 3000 people is NOT God. Remember, History is written by the victors, maybe someone had to justify their "War Crimes". People have been doing it that way, Saying it was God who told them, since the begging of time.
What do you believe are these people's motivation to change for the better, to seek God? What do you believe is their goal? If they keep from sin, why do they do it? If they help the needy, why do you believe they do it?
At some point during Greek civilisation, the Greeks believed that it was okay and perfectly moral for adult men to have sex with little boys. That is totally unacceptable in our society. How does this fit into your believe system? Who sets the standards? Are there any absolutes?
Do you believe in life after death?
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What do you believe are these people's motivation to change for the better, to seek God? What do you believe is their goal? If they keep from sin, why do they do it? If they help the needy, why do you believe they do it?
Because deep down inside everyone is good, they know right from wrong and they realize they have been leading a life that's short of their potential both spiritually and physically. They see the error of their ways and how it's affected other people they care about, they mature, etc... the problem with some is they lose touch with God in there hearts and become fearful, hateful, murderous etc... they regress.
At some point during Greek civilisation, the Greeks believed that it was okay and perfectly moral for adult men to have sex with little boys. That is totally unacceptable in our society. How does this fit into your believe system? Who sets the standards? Are there any absolutes?
Not all moral codes or cultures morals are in every religion. But there are consistent codes in every religion. Sex with boys produces a victim as a results so it would morally unacceptable. What you talking about their has more to do with culture. And yes, some cultures are barbaric.
so yes there are absolutes. "No victims" thou shall not kill, steal, etc...
Do you believe in life after death?
Yes.
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Because deep down inside everyone is good, they know right from wrong and they realize they have been leading a life that's short of their potential both spiritually and physically. They see the error of their ways and how it's affected other people they care about, they mature, etc... the problem with some is they lose touch with God in there hearts and become fearful, hateful, murderous etc... they regress.
So what is their reward for doing good, for keeping from doing evil?
Not all moral codes or cultures morals are in every religion. But there are consistent codes in every religion. Sex with boys produces a victim as a results so it would morally unacceptable. What you talking about their has more to do with culture. And yes, some cultures are barbaric.
so yes there are absolutes. "No victims" thou shall not kill, steal, etc...
What would be your answer to these questions from a Greek of those days?
"How does my behavior produce a victim? The boy is not being killed"
"What if the boy is willing and enjoys it?"
"If the boy is born and brought up in a society where this behaviour and life style is acceptable, how is he a victim? Would he not accept it too?"
"Who are you to tell me that what I'm doing is evil?"
Yes.
Do you believe in a "heaven" and a "hell"? Who goes where and why?
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So what is their reward for doing good, for keeping from doing evil?
If you are doing it for a reward then in your heart you are not doing for the right reasons. (examples the 2 pastors) You are not true to yourself. That's where eternal salvation becomes a sales pitch rather then something you are aspiring to as a human and a spirit.
What would be your answer these questions to a Greek of those days?
"How does my behavior produce a victim? The boy is not being killed"
"What if the boy is willing and enjoys it?"
"If the boy is born and brought up in a society where this behaviour and life style is acceptable, how is he a victim? Would he not accept it too?"
Sexual relationships between adults and children have been proven to be harmful to the child. Anything harmful produces a victim. Kids do not know better and should be protected from adult things until they are past the age of consent.
Do you believe in a "heaven" and a "hell"? Who goes where and why?
In the traditional Bible view of Fire and the Devil Reigning over your soul for eternity, no. I believe that's a metaphor to what happens when you don't grow spiritually or do things in your life that caused great pain to others like killing a young girl, living a life of stealing, child molestation etc... You are in a spiritual Hell so to speak.
I believe in heaven.
I believe we determine where we go by the choices we make in our lives and we atone for the bad choices we make after we die. We are here to help one another, have compassion, love, and grow spiritually. It is a gift that god has given us, Life on Earth, we should cherish it every day we are granted the experience of breathing, of helping people, nurturing children, parenting, feeling the sun's warmth etc...Love.
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If you are doing it for a reward then in your heart you are not doing for the right reasons. (examples the 2 pastors) You are not true to yourself.
I believe we determine where we go by the choices we make in our lives and we atone for the bad choices we make after we die
So good, non-Christians determine that they'll go to a paradise by their good choices? Does this not motivate them at all? Does this not play a role at all in their good choices?
That's where eternal salvation becomes a sales pitch rather then something you are aspiring to as a human and a spirit.
But we had already established that Christians don't do good things expecting a reward or eternal salvation in exchange, since it is a free gift from God and they already have it, correct? God says something like...and this is in my own words...
"here is free eternal life. It's yours. You can't do anything to earn it, and you can't do anything to keep it. Now start living a selfless life. Be a good example and do good unto others so that they too can have this free eternal life when they ask you to give a reason for your good actions and for your faith. It's not about you. It's about them, those who do not yet have this eternal life."
Then how is eternal salvation a sales pitch?
Sexual relationships between adults and children have been proven to be harmful to the child. Anything harmful produces a victim. Kids do not know better and should be protected from adult things until they are past the age of consent.
Who proved this and how? Through scientific studies? Are these studies perfect?
Was this fact proven in our society or in this earlier Greek society? Had these studies been conducted in a society where this life style was accepted as good and moral by everybody, would the results have been different?
Do we base morality on studies? Before this fact was proven, was it good and moral for these adults to have sex with little boys?
In the traditional Bible view of Fire and the Devil Reigning over your soul for eternity, no. I believe that's a metaphor to what happens when you don't grow spiritually or do things in your life that caused great pain to others like killing a young girl, living a life of stealing, child molestation etc... You are in a spiritual Hell so to speak.
Is this spiritual Hell a place where these people go after they die? Do they stay there for ever? Or are they punished there for a while, then go to a paradise?
I believe in heaven.
I believe we determine where we go by the choices we make in our lives and we atone for the bad choices we make after we die. We are here to help one another, have compassion, love, and grow spiritually. It is a gift that god has given us, Life on Earth, we should cherish it every day we are granted the experience of breathing, of helping people, nurturing children, parenting, feeling the sun's warmth etc...Love.
How good do you have to be to go to this heaven? What's the ratio of good vs. evil in your life that determines whether you go there or not? Is there a scale of good deeds from say, 1 - 1000 with a line somewhere in the middle that you must go over in order to make it to heaven?
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So good, non-Christians determine that they'll go to a paradise by their good choices? Does this not motivate them at all? Does this not play a role at all in their good choices?
I believe all people do.
Why are you good? Becuase you don't want to go to hell or because it's not the right thing to do or It's not the "higher" thing to do? (example: pastor #2)
But we had already established that Christians don't do good things expecting a reward or eternal salvation in exchange, since it is a free gift from God and they already have it, correct? God says something like...and this is in my own words...
"here is free eternal life. It's yours. You can't do anything to earn it, and you can't do anything to keep it. Now start living a selfless life. Be a good example and do good unto others so that they too can have this free eternal life when they ask you to give a reason for your good actions and for your faith. It's not about you. It's about them, those who do not yet have this eternal life."
Then how is eternal salvation a sales pitch?
If you do "__________________" (which will be what ever the religion requires) you will get "________________" That's a sales a pitch.
Who proved this and how? Through scientific studies? Are these studies perfect?
Was this fact proven in our society or in this earlier Greek society? Had these studies been conducted in a society where this life style was accepted as good and moral by everybody, would the results have been different?
Are you seriously asking this question or are you just trying to debate my point by discrediting the idea that sex with children and adults is bad for the children?
Let's keep it real here, loco.
Is this spiritual Hell a place where these people go after they die? Do they stay there for ever? Or are they punished there for a while, then go to a paradise?
I don't know. Haven't been there, at least that i can remember.....but i was audited once ;D
How good do you have to be to go to this heaven? What's the ratio of good vs. evil in your life that determines whether you go there or not? Is there a scale of good deeds from say, 1 - 1000 with a line somewhere in the middle that you must go over in order to make it to heaven?
I don't know loco. I don't have all the answers. So your series of questions leading to the "i dunno" eventually hit target.
If i ask you the same questions you'll just respond with a Bible quote. Becuase you believe the bible was written by God, even though it contradicts itself. I bet i could do the same with other religious books. that in it's self doesn't make it true.
But i do know this:
I do believe in God. I believe in the after life, heaven and hell. And from what religions have been presented to me over the course of my life, conflicts, save some some moral constants. There in lies some truth. Not the whole truth, but what ever that is, i believe it.
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I believe all people do.
All people go to a paradise after they die, or all good people are motivated to do good by the idea of being rewarded by being allowed to enter this paradise after they die?
Why are you good? Becuase you don't want to go to hell or because it's not the right thing to do or It's not the "higher" thing to do? (example: pastor #2)
Neither. I do good and abstain from evil because I do not want other people to go to hell. It's not about me. It's about them.
If you do "____have faith in what Jesus DID______________" (which will be what ever the religion requires) you will get "____the free gift of eternal life___"
That's a sales a pitch.
Okay, but it is not the sales pitch that you are talking about, eternal life if you do good works. I was asking you what motivates you and others like you to do good works.
Are you seriously asking this question or are you just trying to debate my point by discrediting the idea that sex with children and adults is bad for the children?
Let's keep it real here, loco.
I am seriously asking those questions. You do not have to answer if you don't want to, but I would appreciate it if you do. They are legitimate questions. Sex with children is bad, but that's not the point or the question.
I don't know. Haven't been there, at least that i can remember.....but i was audited once ;D
I don't know loco. I don't have all the answers. So your series of questions leading to the "i dunno" eventually hit target.
If i ask you the same questions you'll just respond with a Bible quote. Because you believe the bible was written by God, even though it contradicts itself. I bet i could do the same with other religious books. that in it's self doesn't make it true.
But i do know this:
I do believe in God. I believe in the after life, heaven and hell. And from what religions have been presented to me over the course of my life, conflicts, save some some moral constants. There in lies some truth. Not the whole truth, but what ever that is, i believe it.
My series of questions are not meant to lead you to the "i dunno" eventually. I just want to know what you believe. You have asked me many questions, but I have not asked you that many questions in comparison. You have a general idea of what Christians believe, but I had no idea what exactly you believe.
I still would like to see your answers to the questions above regarding morality.
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I did not forget the rest. You quoted the Bible saying that they piled bodies and burnt them as a burnt offering to God. Where did you get that? Is not in the Bible, is it? How do you know they didn't bury the human bodies first, or outside the city? This is very significant because God did require burnt offering of animals, vegetables and "things", but never human flesh. So where did you get your earlier quote from?
Where did that quote come from? Not from the Bible. Where does it say to pile up bodies and burn them as an offering to God? The God of the Bible never required human sacrifice. God forbids it. Even after asking Abraham to offer his son, God stopped him.
This is what the Bible passage says, and it's talking about burning things, not people:
Deuteronomy 13:16 (King James Version)
16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
Deuteronomy 13:16 (New King James Version)
And you shall gather all its plunder into the middle of the street, and completely burn with fire the city and all its plunder, for the LORD your God. It shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again
Deuteronomy 13:16 (New International Version)
Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.
Deuteronomy 13:16 (New American Standard Bible)
Then you shall gather all its booty into the middle of its open square and burn the city and all its booty with fire as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God; and it shall be a ruin forever. It shall never be rebuilt.
I was just paraphrasing what it said. It doesn't say that the inhabitants are buried. The "booty" or "plunder" or "spoils" would include the human beings. In the Old Testament humans were considered "spoils of war".
Read Numbers chapter 31. In this chapter God tells Moses to go to war against the Midianites. Moses sends 12,000 troops to war against the Midianites and conquers them. They are all taken as captives and brought to Moses and Moses was asked what should be done to them. Here is what Moses said...
Numbers 31:15
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
Numbers 31:16
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
Numbers 31:17
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
Numbers 31:18
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Moses tells the soldiers to kill every male child and every women who has had sex with another man and to keep the rest "alive for themselves" and we all know what THAT means!
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I was just paraphrasing what it said. It doesn't say that the inhabitants are buried. The "booty" or "plunder" or "spoils" would include the human beings. In the Old Testament humans were considered "spoils of war".
You were doing what? Paraphrasing? Yeah, sure you were.
So if it doesn't say that the inhabitants are buried, that means that they were not buried? No, it doesn't mean that.
The "booty" or "plunder" or "spoils" would include the human beings? Why? That's false in general, but even in this one passage it is false. Here God is being very specifics about to do with each one separately: "people", "livestock" and "plunder".
Wikidudeman,
Is it necessary for you to paraphrase the Bible in order to make your point? Why do you have to resort to deception and why do you have to put words in God's mouth? Do you realize what this does to your credibility?
Numbers 31:18
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Moses tells the soldiers to kill every male child and every women who has had sex with another man and to keep the rest "alive for themselves" and we all know what THAT means!
We all know that THAT means? Really? What does it mean? That those virgins became sex slaves? It doesn't say that, does it? Above you said that if the Bible doesn't say it, it didn't happen. Again, you are being manipulative to make your point. If according to you, the Bible is full of errors and contradictions, why are you having to interpret, paraphrase and add to God's word to make your point? You shouldn't have to do that to prove your point, right?
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All people go to a paradise after they die, or all good people are motivated to do good by the idea of being rewarded by being allowed to enter this paradise after they die?
No, my point with this is that, people who are in touch with "god" inside them don't do evil things. And that applies to all people.
Neither. I do good and abstain from evil because I do not want other people to go to hell. It's not about me. It's about them.
That's why i think you are a good and great person for the most part until you get judgmental which is infrequent on this forum.
If you do "____have faith in what Jesus DID______________" (which will be what ever the religion requires) you will get "____the free gift of eternal life___"
Okay, but it is not the sales pitch that you are talking about, eternal life if you do good works. I was asking you what motivates you and others like you to do good works.
It's a sale pitch none the less. I understand even Jesus had to sell salvation.
I am seriously asking those questions. You do not have to answer if you don't want to, but I would appreciate it if you do. They are legitimate questions. Sex with children is bad, but that's not the point or the question.
Perhaps you should take the direct approach.
Do you believe a child is harmed if an adult forces or seduces the child to have sex with them? If the answer is yes, then there isn't anything more to talk about if that's what you wanted to know. Or maybe you can think of another example to make your point.
My series of questions are not meant to lead you to the "i dunno" eventually. I just want to know what you believe. You have asked me many questions, but I have not asked you that many questions in comparison. You have a general idea of what Christians believe, but I had no idea what exactly you believe.
I still would like to see your answers to the questions above regarding morality.
I pretty much answered them.
But let me just say this:
I believe we are all subject to the truth no matter who we are or what we believe. And that truth is found in all religions, just that some have more of it than others.
I don;t believe anyone has the right to tell another what the truth is becuase until they die there is no way to know it. I remember long ago, when i was 15, a Pastor telling me that i was going to go to hell becuase at the time, i was catholic. Who does he thing he is? Does he know God's thoughts.......
Also i have serious beefs with organized religions. For all the good they do, they also, manipulate, and control by their nature and create doctrine that's designed to bring money into the church, to attract and keep followers. They much like whores in my opinion.
I believe we are a magnificent creation, not perfect, of course, but that's what's living is about, it's about growing. the way i hear it from many christains, you all have serious self esteem issues. That religion doesn't always fuel growth in my opinion. We all should be proud of being his creation, not feeling inadequate.
i believe religion should be personal, not something "sold" to others. Charity organizations should exsits over churches. think of the Trillions the Roman Catholic Church Possesses. It's disgusting. Almost all churches are like this the only difference is the amount of wealth they have.
Maybe this will answer some future questions.
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Perhaps you should take the direct approach.
Do you believe a child is harmed if an adult forces or seduces the child to have sex with them? If the answer is yes, then there isn't anything more to talk about if that's what you wanted to know. Or maybe you can think of another example to make your point.
I pretty much answered them.
OzmO,
I still have questions about things you said earlier and about your believes. I'm just trying to understand. You and I both believe that adult men having sex with little boys is evil. No question about it.
At some point during Greek civilisation however, the Greeks believed that it was okay, good and perfectly moral for adult men to have sex with little boys. That is totally unacceptable in our society today.
But the Bible had already established long before their time that adult men having sex with little boys was detestable and an abomination.
I asked you...
What would be your answer to these questions from a Greek of those days?
"How does my behavior produce a victim? The boy is not being killed"
"What if the boy is willing and enjoys it?"
"If the boy is born and brought up in a society where this behaviour and life style is acceptable, how is he a victim? Would he not accept it too?"
"Who are you to tell me that what I'm doing is evil?"
To which you answered...
Sexual relationships between adults and children have been proven to be harmful to the child.
Question: Is that why this life style is wrong and immoral to you? Is morality determined by scientific studies and proof? Was that life style good, moral and acceptable before proof that it harms the child was provided?
I believe that this life style is, and was always wrong and immoral because the Bible said so long before.
You also said...
I believe that different people respond, based on their culture, moral compass, and personal experiences, upbringing etc..
To these Greeks, in their culture, in their time, according to their moral compass, their personal experiences and their upbringing, that life style was good and moral.
Question: Based on your quote above, do you believe that this life style was good and moral during that time and in that culture? If your answer is no, how does that not contradict your statement above?
I believe that no matter my culture, society I live in, time in history I live in, my moral compass, my personal experiences, the Bible establishes what is moral and what's immoral. The Bible is the final authority in my life and not the above.
You also said...
No, my point with this is that, people who are in touch with "god" inside them don't do evil things. And that applies to all people.
How does this apply to these Greeks? Did the "god" inside of them tell them that having sex with little boys was good and moral? Because that society did believe that it was good and moral.
OzmO, I know that you believe that adult men having sex with little boys is evil, and so do I.
Question: Had you lived in that society in those days, would you have believed that this life style was good and moral?
I would not have, because as I said before, I go by what the Bible says and the Bible says that it is detestable and an abomination.
This is a great example for my questions and my points because here you have a society of civilized people, known for their philosophy, education, intelligence, very advanced civilisation for their time, known for trusting and following logic rather than myth and fairy tales. Yet, they adopt this life style as good and moral.
Did they have access to the Bible in those days? Sure, they did. They are the ones who had the Old Testament translated from Hebrew to Greek.
The above example can apply to many immoral things that are accepted in our society today as moral. So I cannot trust the little voice("god") inside of me to tell me what's moral if it contradicts the Bible, as it did in the case of these Greeks. And I will not just sit and wait for a scientific study to prove to me what's moral and what's immoral, as it happened in this case.
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Question: Is that why this life style is wrong and immoral to you?
yes
Question: Is morality determined by scientific studies and proof?
yes and no.
Question: Was that life style good, moral and acceptable before proof that it harms the child was provided?
From what i understand it was acceptable, i don;t know if it was considered moral. Adultery is certainly part of our culture but we don't consider it moral.
To these Greeks, in their culture, in their time, according to their moral compass, their personal experiences and their upbringing, that life style was good and moral.
This what i said:
I believe that when the student is ready the Teacher Appears.
I believe that different people respond, based on their culture, moral compass, and personal experiences, upbringing etc.. to different approaches and that God makes it available to them, in different religions, so they can, if they so chose to pursue it. For Example: A young man in India, see his life as wicked and sinful decides to change his life. he does this by committing himself to the consistent set of moral principles you see in nearly every religion. What religion it is doesn't matter as much as he's decided to change and has decided to govern his life based on a living a good moral life. At this point he allows God to enter his life.
What i was talking about here was how people's desire for spiritual answers are provided by God in form of many different religions in different cultures and environments through the world. And that in each of these religions there are moral constants, the same ones you find in the Bible. Sex with boys is not a moral constant or absolute. I wasn't trying to justify Greek culture concerning sex with boys.
Question: Based on your quote above, do you believe that this life style was good and moral during that time and in that culture?
No.
Question: If your answer is no, how does that not contradict your statement above?
That statement is not part of what we are talking about now. Hopefully you understand what i was getting at there.
I believe that no matter my culture, society I live in, time in history I live in, my moral compass, my personal experiences, the Bible establishes what is moral and what's immoral. The Bible is the final authority in my life and not the above.
I respect that, although in my mind, my morals are governed by my heart. And becuase God is in my heart, he's always there to guide me. i believe we all are born with knowing right from wrong, much of what stems from the question of whether or not you are harming someone else. We are all born with the spirit of God inside us. (maybe you can find something in the bible on that :))
You also said...
How does this apply to these Greeks? Did the "god" inside of them tell them that having sex with little boys was good and moral? Because that society did believe that it was good and moral.
That's like asking the question did the God inside Cho at VT tell him to do that.... Of course not. The spirit of god is available to anyone who seeks it and when they look they see it was never apart from them. These men who had sex with boys may have not felt any inkling of wrong doing becuase fo what their culture taught them. They also may have not been in any way in touch with God inside them. Not all men had sex with boys....not all men commit adultery. So many people in this world, and i'm sure you'll agree, are so spiritually detracted. Probably wasn't much different then.
OzmO, I know that you believe that adult men having sex with little boys is evil, and so do I.
Question: Had you lived in that society in those days, would you have believed that this life style was good and moral?
I wouldn't believed it was moral becuase i would have saw the boys suffering. Remember not to confuse a small part of that culture with every man living in Greece at the time.
This is a great example for my questions and my points because here you have a society of civilized people, known for their philosophy, education, intelligence, very advanced civilisation for their time, known for trusting and following logic rather than myth and fairy tales. Yet, they adopt this life style as good and moral.
i agree, that's why culture's progress, societies progress. That's what ultimately this Internet will do for the world.....help it progress. You remember 16th century Japan? Killing was normal. The value of life was viewed differently.
Did they have access to the Bible in those days? Sure, they did. They are the ones who had the Old Testament translated from Hebrew to Greek.
Access wouldn't be the same as it is today and why would they want to? Why would they give any credit to it? Remember, not all religions are good, almost all have some truth in them, moral consistencies, but some have very few. In that culture, although they had access, base on their upbringing, environment, culture, the ordinary Greek wouldn't pay any mind to it.
This is where most christains are out of touch with reality. They think because it was around back then or even now that people have no excuse. Is that why you believe 80 billion will go to hell?
The above example can apply to many immoral things that are accepted in our society today as moral. So I cannot trust the little voice("god") inside of me to tell me what's moral if it contradicts the Bible, as it did in the case of these Greeks. And I will not just sit and wait for a scientific study to prove to me what's moral and what's immoral, as it happened in this case.
It's not a little voice, it's more of a feeling. You need a book, written thousands of years ago that's full of manipulation, violence, etc... I guess, to tell you what's right and wrong, and i don't. I trust the voice of God and what God gave me, the sense of right and wrong, not someone else's interpretation which in organized religion is for the purpose of promoting and growing the said church.
I don't need a scientific study to know when someone is suffering do you? (you asked for proof, so i said "scientific study", but real the proof is in the boy's suffering)
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What I've read of this conversation has been really interesting thanks guys. I don't mean to interrupt (much ;D ) so if you want I could start a new thread but I have a couple quick questions for OzmO that were brought up in this thread.
OzmO, you say that you believe that only about 80% of the bible is correct. I'm curious to know what criteria determine what makes you accept something as true or not in the bible.
Also, you said you were audited once. Was that regarding Scientology? If so, would you tell us about it? What were your feelings and opinions on the process? I've heard it's kind of like a lie detector test. Would you compare it to that?
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OzmO, you say that you believe that only about 80% of the bible is correct. I'm curious to know what criteria determine what makes you accept something as true or not in the bible.
What i mean is, that 80% of what is in the bible is the "word" of God, and the other "20%" is organized religious agenda created by Man. Like Paul's letters. 80% is just a guess, i'd have tore-read the whole thing and analyze it...something that would take months. Sorry i don't have time.
Here's an example loco and i have been talking about: God creates evil. I don't think he does directly. I think he's put us in the world where we can be subject to evil things from the choices of otehrs. But i don't think he purposely & directly creates evil such as serial killers, child molesters, and wars.
Same thing with the 3000 murdered by Moses.
The bible is great book with much of God in it, but it isn't the 100% word of God.
Also, you said you were audited once. Was that regarding Scientology? If so, would you tell us about it? What were your feelings and opinions on the process? I've heard it's kind of like a lie detector test. Would you compare it to that?
Where did Scientology come from in this? ??? ??? ??? ??? I'm no scientologist.
I was audited by the Sate of California for employee payroll and tax records. I was off by .16 cents :). But it was scary. :)
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You were doing what? Paraphrasing? Yeah, sure you were.
So if it doesn't say that the inhabitants are buried, that means that they were not buried? No, it doesn't mean that.
The "booty" or "plunder" or "spoils" would include the human beings? Why? That's false in general, but even in this one passage it is false. Here God is being very specifics about to do with each one separately: "people", "livestock" and "plunder".
Wikidudeman,
Is it necessary for you to paraphrase the Bible in order to make your point? Why do you have to resort to deception and why do you have to put words in God's mouth? Do you realize what this does to your credibility?
We all know that THAT means? Really? What does it mean? That those virgins became sex slaves? It doesn't say that, does it? Above you said that if the Bible doesn't say it, it didn't happen. Again, you are being manipulative to make your point. If according to you, the Bible is full of errors and contradictions, why are you having to interpret, paraphrase and add to God's word to make your point? You shouldn't have to do that to prove your point, right?
I never mentioned sex slaves. Where'd you get that from? 8)
The fact that you notice it implies they will be kept as sex slaves is evidence enough. I never mentioned sex slaves and yet you still realized that was the implication. The fact that Moses made sure that they only kept the women or young girls who had not had sex before is pretty clear that they intended to keep them for sex slaves. Are you truly naive enough to believe otherwise?
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The fact that you notice it implies they will be kept as sex slaves is evidence enough. I never mentioned sex slaves and yet you still realized that was the implication.
This has been debated for years and skeptics always bring it up to say God told them to take up "sex slaves". That's where I came up with that and I know that's what you mean.
But 1. It doesn't say that. And 2. what we know of the culture and the time tells us that is not what they were for. Israeli men did not keep sex slaves. ;D
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This has been debated for years and skeptics always bring it up to say God told them to take up "sex slaves". That's where I came up with that and I know that's what you mean.
But 1. It doesn't say that. And 2. what we know of the culture and the time tells us that is not what they were for. Israeli men did not keep sex slaves. ;D
Wrong.
Leviticus 25:44-46
44 However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.
45 You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property,
46 passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.
Exodus 21:7-11
7 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.
8 If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.
9 And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.
10 If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.
11 If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.
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wow, God talks of owning slaves?
The word of GOD?
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wow, God talks of owning slaves?
The word of GOD?
Homosexuality bad, but slavery ok?
Yeah, this is Logical.
this is divine.
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Homosexuality bad, but slavery ok?
Yeah, this is Logical.
this is divine.
all praise be to allah.
it is a book written by men. although i have to give props to loco who maintains himself, and doesnt regress into name calling.
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Wrong.
Leviticus 25:44-46
44 However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.
45 You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property,
46 passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.
Exodus 21:7-11
7 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.
8 If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.
9 And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.
10 If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.
11 If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.
Wikidudeman,
These are NOT "sex slaves". I never said that Israelites didn't own slaves. I said that Israelites did not own "sex slaves", which is the point that you are trying to make.
Exodus 21:7-11
7 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.
8 If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.
9 And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.
10 If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.
11 If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.
[/quote]
We can start a whole new thread on the Bible on slavery, but the point here is that these were not "sex slaves". Slave owners may have had sex with them, I don't know, but the Bible does not say that God would approve of this.
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wow, God talks of owning slaves?
The word of GOD?
OzmO,
Yes, He does:
Deuteronomy 23:15-16
15 “You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you. 16 He may dwell with you in your midst, in the place which he chooses within one of your gates, where it seems best to him; you shall not oppress him."
Isaiah 58:6
"Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?"
Jeremiah 34:10
So all the officials and people who entered into this covenant agreed that they would free their male and female slaves and no longer hold them in bondage. They agreed, and set them free.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
OzmO, I find that everything I post gets nick picked, questioned, picked apart, and over analyzed by you, which is fine with me. However, as soon as Wiki posts something against Christianity or the Bible, you immediately accept it as fact.
I really think it's cool how you don't just accept anything I post, but you analyze it, ask questions and pick it apart. But I do suggest you do the same with Wiki or with anyone who posts here. A lot of what he posts is false. Who can blame him? He's just copying and pasting stuff from the Internet, mainly Wikipedia.
Wikidudeman , God bless you! I'm praying for you, that God will guide you to the truth so that you too may have forgiveness and eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ!
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it is a book written by men. although i have to give props to loco who maintains himself, and doesnt regress into name calling.
Thanks, usmokepole! But I give God credit even for that.
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Homosexuality bad, but slavery ok?
Yeah, this is Logical.
this is divine.
OzmO,
You are correct, that the Bible does openly and very clearly condem Homosexuality.
The Bible does not openly condem slavery. However, the Bible never says that slavery is okay or that it is a good thing either. So these two issues can't compare.
Deuteronomy 23:15-16
15 “You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you. 16 He may dwell with you in your midst, in the place which he chooses within one of your gates, where it seems best to him; you shall not oppress him."
Isaiah 58:6
"Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?"
Jeremiah 34:10
So all the officials and people who entered into this covenant agreed that they would free their male and female slaves and no longer hold them in bondage. They agreed, and set them free.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
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From what i understand it was acceptable, i don;t know if it was considered moral. Adultery is certainly part of our culture but we don't consider it moral.
Ozmo,
I think you need to read about "Greek pederasty". It was considered moral, very moral, and not by just a few Greeks, but by all of Greek civilisation for a long period of time. They even considered that the practice itself so "spiritual" moral and good that it was what separated them from Barbarians. Can you believe that?
These men who had sex with boys may have not felt any inkling of wrong doing becuase fo what their culture taught them. They also may have not been in any way in touch with God inside them.
Not all men had sex with boys....not all men commit adultery. So many people in this world, and i'm sure you'll agree, are so spiritually detracted. Probably wasn't much different then.
The entire civilization was out of touch with the god inside of them? How can that be? No, not all of them had sex with boys, but all of them thought it was moral and "beautiful", what separated them from barbarians.
I wouldn't believed it was moral becuase i would have saw the boys suffering.
How? How would you have seen the boys suffering? The act was specifically a one on one act. A mentor or teacher would take a little boy under his care, teach him morality and...have sex with him. How would you have witnessed the boys suffering unless you were the one having sex with the boy?
Are you saying that you are good, while they were all evil, everyone of them? Does this not contradict your belief that all humans are good and do not need forgiveness or a savior?
Remember not to confuse a small part of that culture with every man living in Greece at the time.
No, not a small part. It was all of Greece and for a long period of time that they believed the practice was "spiritual", good and moral.
i agree, that's why culture's progress, societies progress. That's what ultimately this Internet will do for the world.....help it progress. You remember 16th century Japan? Killing was normal. The value of life was viewed differently.
Progress? At that point in time, with such a civilized and advanced culture, I would call that regress, not progress.
Access wouldn't be the same as it is today and why would they want to? Why would they give any credit to it? Remember, not all religions are good, almost all have some truth in them, moral consistencies, but some have very few. In that culture, although they had access, base on their upbringing, environment, culture, the ordinary Greek wouldn't pay any mind to it.
This is where most christains are out of touch with reality. They think because it was around back then or even now that people have no excuse. Is that why you believe 80 billion will go to hell?
OzmO, I said that they had access to the Bible only in case the argument was made that they did not have access to it. Why would they want to have access to the Bible? They did want to, and they went through a whole lot of trouble to get access to the Bible. You need to read the "Letter of Aristeas" to get an idea of the trouble the Greeks went through to obtain the Bible. Once they finally had it translated, it was available at the Library of Alexandria, where Greek scholars, teachers, mentors, philosophers, religious leaders and all the people of influence had access to it.
Letter of Aristeas
http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/aristeas.htm
It's not a little voice, it's more of a feeling. You need a book, written thousands of years ago that's full of manipulation, violence, etc... I guess, to tell you what's right and wrong, and i don't. I trust the voice of God and what God gave me, the sense of right and wrong, not someone else's interpretation which in organized religion is for the purpose of promoting and growing the said church.
Well, this book, the Bible, would have kept me from accepting such immoral practice as moral had I lived there in those days. The god inside the Greeks did not work. But the Bible had already established that such life style is immoral.
I don't need a scientific study to know when someone is suffering do you? (you asked for proof, so i said "scientific study", but real the proof is in the boy's suffering)
No, I don't need a scientific study to know when someone is suffering. But again, how would you have known boys were suffering in those days due to Greek pederasty? Unless you yourself were present in the act, either by participating or by witnessing it?
Also, how do you know a certain life style today is not going to create a "victim" or cause a person emotional trauma years down the road? In some cases, yes, scientific studies are needed to find out why all of a sudden a certain generation of people have damage of some kind, physical, emotional, etc. Some times it takes years to notice that people are suffering due to a certain practice, habit or life style. But when it comes to morality, I will not sit around and wait until a scientific study proves to me what is moral or what is immoral. I will go by what the Bible says. The Bible sets the moral standards and it is the final authority in my life.
OzmO, based on the above, I cannot share your beliefs without running into a dilemma. That is why I cannot rely on the little voice inside of me, or wait for culture to progress, or for scientific studies to tell me what is moral and what is immoral.
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Wikidudeman,
These are NOT "sex slaves". I never said that Israelites didn't own slaves. I said that Israelites did not own "sex slaves", which is the point that you are trying to make.
Exodus 21:7-11
7 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.
8 If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.
9 And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.
10 If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.
11 If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.
We can start a whole new thread on the Bible on slavery, but the point here is that these were not "sex slaves". Slave owners may have had sex with them, I don't know, but the Bible does not say that God would approve of this.
It says "If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again." Anyone who doesn't see this as sex slavery really has some problems of perception due to their preconceived notions.
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It says "If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again." Anyone who doesn't see this as sex slavery really has some problems of perception due to their preconceived notions.
not at all. please can mean many things, such as obedience, loyalty,hard working etc etc... qualities i would want in a slave. your "argument" that please somehow infers sexual favors is misguided and wrong. what are the qualities that are prized in a slave?
i assume that "please" means her ability to perform those duties. some of the duties may be sex, but yet again your argument is inconclusive.
"please" can be interpreted many ways, and yours is just one of many.
i dont want to argue with you im just supporting loco in his argument against your non-sense.
if i bought an animal, it may not "please" me, this can be applied to the situation outlined above. it doesnt mean the dog didnt lick my balls, it may have had a bad temperment, been ugly, smelled etc etc.
wrong again. continue on loco ;D
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not at all. please can mean many things, such as obedience, loyalty,hard working etc etc... qualities i would want in a slave.
Including sex.
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Including sex.
yes i said that. however, "Anyone who doesn't see this as sex slavery really has some problems of perception due to their preconceived notions" is a bit of a stretch. also, it could me some or all of said qualities, the point is it is speculation on both parties sides, and loco doesnt have perception problems. its like his saying it means "cooking veggie soup slaves" because that would be pleasing, and saying you have a perception problem if you dont see "please" to indicate that.
your please is just one of many interpretations, and to assume its the correct one for some reason you have yet to prove is false.
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OzmO,
Yes, He does:
Deuteronomy 23:15-16
15 “You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you. 16 He may dwell with you in your midst, in the place which he chooses within one of your gates, where it seems best to him; you shall not oppress him."
Isaiah 58:6
"Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?"
Jeremiah 34:10
So all the officials and people who entered into this covenant agreed that they would free their male and female slaves and no longer hold them in bondage. They agreed, and set them free.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
OzmO, I find that everything I post gets nick picked, questioned, picked apart, and over analyzed by you, which is fine with me. However, as soon as Wiki posts something against Christianity or the Bible, you immediately accept it as fact.
I really think it's cool how you don't just accept anything I post, but you analyze it, ask questions and pick it apart. But I do suggest you do the same with Wiki or with anyone who posts here. A lot of what he posts is false. Who can blame him? He's just copying and pasting stuff from the Internet, mainly Wikipedia.
Wikidudeman , God bless you! I'm praying for you, that God will guide you to the truth so that you too may have forgiveness and eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ!
The mere fact the "god" described in the Bible gives advice or direction on purchasing slaves, treating children of other families as "property", selling daughters as slaves and keeping them slaves longer than men, is reprehensible and not indicative or representative of, Jesus or God. And then at the same time making homosexuality a sin?
this is the crap that Slavery was justified with by white westerners for years.
That is pathetic. It looks like the word of Satan to me.
How can you sit there and say the bible is the word of God when "god" is giving out advice on how to manage slaves?
And you call this book a moral compass? ::)
That is not GOD.
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Ozmo if you don't believe the Bible is God's inspired word, what do you rely on to help determine right and wrong?
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Ozmo if you don't believe the Bible is God's inspired word, what do you rely on to help determine right and wrong?
for the most part i believe it is. Just not 100%, actually quite less than 100%. People get their morals from many places but we all know the difference between right and wrong. Some just chose not to pay attention to it.
don't confuse this......i'm not saying you can't get morals from the bible.
unless it comes to slavery ::)
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for the most part i believe it is. Just not 100%, actually quite less than 100%. People get their morals from many places but we all know the difference between right and wrong. Some just chose not to pay attention to it.
don't confuse this......i'm not saying you can't get morals from the bible.
unless it comes to slavery ::)
But how do you determine which parts are inspired and which parts are not? Is it just the parts you disagree with that you don't consider God's word?
These are not set-up questions. Just trying to understand where you're coming from.
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Ozmo,
I think you need to read about "Greek pederasty". It was considered moral, very moral, and not by just a few Greeks, but by all of Greek civilisation for a long period of time. They even considered that the practice itself so "spiritual" moral and good that it was what separated them from Barbarians. Can you believe that?
Really it was considered moral by ALL Greeks?
Was there a poll?
Did everyone fill out survey questions?
Did every Greek that ever lived during that time feel the exact same way?
Do you tell yourself this stuff and actually believe it? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Com on loco, we are both educated people here.
While it may have been a part of main stream culture does not take away from the fact children were suffering and it is certain that people knew of their suffering INCLUDING the parents who eventually grew up. And while most just repeated what happened to them, some didn't....much like child abuse from generation to generation. I'm sure there were many families that didn't practice it.
It's common sense loco. Common sense evolves..... just society has.......like WITH SLAVES FOR EXAMPLE .......no thanks to the stupid BIBLE.
The entire civilization was out of touch with the god inside of them? How can that be? No, not all of them had sex with boys, but all of them thought it was moral and "beautiful", what separated them from barbarians.
How? How would you have seen the boys suffering? The act was specifically a one on one act. A mentor or teacher would take a little boy under his care, teach him morality and...have sex with him. How would you have witnessed the boys suffering unless you were the one having sex with the boy?
Are you really asking me this question?
Were you lying about your education on another thread?
Tell you what, I'm not going to even answer that. Go find a place that treats children who have been molested, or go to Borders and buy a book on it.
You starting to look like you'll say anything to make a point in a debate.
No, not a small part. It was all of Greece and for a long period of time that they believed the practice was "spiritual", good and moral.
here we go again, using "all" to make a point in describing poeple on something 2300 years ago. Do you use "every" and "always" too when you get in arguments?
OzmO, I said that they had access to the Bible only in case the argument was made that they did not have access to it. Why would they want to have access to the Bible? They did want to, and they went through a whole lot of trouble to get access to the Bible. You need to read the "Letter of Aristeas" to get an idea of the trouble the Greeks went through to obtain the Bible. Once they finally had it translated, it was available at the Library of Alexandria, where Greek scholars, teachers, mentors, philosophers, religious leaders and all the people of influence had access to it.
So what? you have access to a Koran right? Doesn't mean you are going to read it and make a change to it. Same with them. But you figure they had their chance and didn't take it so too bad they are going to have to go to hell huh?
Quite typically arrogant of Christians.
Progress? At that point in time, with such a civilized and advanced culture, I would call that regress, not progress.
What do you mean here?
I was pointing out that 16th century Japan was screwed up and now it's progressed. they don;t kill as a matter of practice when someone doesn't pay the appropriate respect to a samuri.
Well, this book, the Bible, would have kept me from accepting such immoral practice as moral had I lived there in those days. The god inside the Greeks did not work. But the Bible had already established that such life style is immoral.
Again you are making an "all" assumption. Remember i'm not saying you can't get morals from the Bible, i'm saying the bible isn't the 100% word of god.
No, I don't need a scientific study to know when someone is suffering. But again, how would you have known boys were suffering in those days due to Greek pederasty? Unless you yourself were present in the act, either by participating or by witnessing it?
If i was a greek, i would have been present in the act as a boy.
Also, how do you know a certain life style today is not going to create a "victim" or cause a person emotional trauma years down the road? In some cases, yes, scientific studies are needed to find out why all of a sudden a certain generation of people have damage of some kind, physical, emotional, etc. Some times it takes years to notice that people are suffering due to a certain practice, habit or life style. But when it comes to morality, I will not sit around and wait until a scientific study proves to me what is moral or what is immoral. I will go by what the Bible says. The Bible sets the moral standards and it is the final authority in my life.
So slavery is moral then? You're ok with that?
OzmO, based on the above, I cannot share your beliefs without running into a dilemma. That is why I cannot rely on the little voice inside of me, or wait for culture to progress, or for scientific studies to tell me what is moral and what is immoral.
Hey man, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. my point here is that the Bible is not the 100% word of god and you have done quite a lot in this debate to convince me of just that.
And also, it's too bad you do not have the confidence in yourself and of the tools and access to God which he gave you from birth as his creation, instead your security and direction lies in a book.
You see, murdering 3000 people is wrong. Anyone can see that, just like they can with slavery. But a person who's shut off part of his common sense (another great gift from God) will be sure find some alibi to justify it.
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But how do you determine which parts are inspired and which parts are not? Is it just the parts you disagree with that you don't consider God's word?
These are not set-up questions. Just trying to understand where you're coming from.
if i went back a re-read it all i could give you detailed answers, but let's just stick with God ordering the murder of 3000 people in exodus fro being insecure while moses came down with the 10 commandments one of which was: thou shall not kill.
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if i went back a re-read it all i could give you detailed answers, but let's just stick with God ordering the murder of 3000 people in exodus fro being insecure while moses came down with the 10 commandments one of which was: thou shall not kill.
I'm not asking for details or specific instances, just how you, in general, determine what is and is not the inspired word. Sounds like it's just the parts you disagree with?
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I'm not asking for details or specific instances, just how you, in general, determine what is and is not the inspired word. Sounds like it's just the parts you disagree with?
i don't disagree with the book in it's entirety, but i do disagree that it's the 100% word of God.
There is quite a lot of what i would consider the W.O.G in it. Lessons of compassion, charity, resolve.
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Ozmo if you don't believe the Bible is God's inspired word, what do you rely on to help determine right and wrong?
Studies show that moral choices of atheists and those who are religions are statistically the same.
www.wjh.harvard.edu/~mnkylab/publications/recent/HauserSingerMoralRelig05.pdf (http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~mnkylab/publications/recent/HauserSingerMoralRelig05.pdf)
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Studies show that moral choices of atheists and those who are religions are statistically the same.
www.wjh.harvard.edu/~mnkylab/publications/recent/HauserSingerMoralRelig05.pdf (http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~mnkylab/publications/recent/HauserSingerMoralRelig05.pdf)
"religious".
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I'm sorry OzmO! I am not sure what it is that I said that offended you, but I apologize. It was not my intention.
Really it was considered moral by ALL Greeks?
OzmO, when I say "All Greeks", I don't mean all Greeks as individuals. I meant all of Greece, as in Sparta, Athens, etc., at that time believed the practice was moral. Most men did not have sex with boys, but most of the population believed that it was moral. It is very possible that there were individuals that did not believe that it was moral. But I said this in reply to your comments below, which according to history, are not correct.
From what i understand it was acceptable, i don;t know if it was considered moral. Adultery is certainly part of our culture but we don't consider it moral.
Yes, it was considered moral. Not all men had sex with boys back then. That is not my point. My point is that "most", if you want me to put it that way, believed that it was moral, even if they did not participate.
Remember not to confuse a small part of that culture with every man living in Greece at the time.
It wasn't a small part of that culture, OzmO.
Was there a poll?
Did everyone fill out survey questions?
Did every Greek that ever lived during that time feel the exact same way?
Do you tell yourself this stuff and actually believe it? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Do I tell myself what? OzmO, this is world history. Don't argue with me. Argue with the historians. I already told you, read about "Greek pederasty". Then you'll see that it was considered "moral" and not by a "small" group of people.
Com on loco, we are both educated people here.
While it may have been a part of main stream culture does not take away from the fact children were suffering and it is certain that people knew of their suffering INCLUDING the parents who eventually grew up. And while most just repeated what happened to them, some didn't....much like child abuse from generation to generation. I'm sure there were many families that didn't practice it.
It's common sense loco. Common sense evolves..... just society has.......like WITH SLAVES FOR EXAMPLE .......no thanks to the stupid BIBLE.
I agree that children were suffering. My question to you was, what about the great majority who did not participate in the act, who were not aware of the child's suffering, who thought the practice was moral? How would these people know that what they thought was moral was actually very immoral? What sets the moral standard for them?
Are you really asking me this question?
Were you lying about your education on another thread?
Tell you what, I'm not going to even answer that. Go find a place that treats children who have been molested, or go to Borders and buy a book on it.
You starting to look like you'll say anything to make a point in a debate.
Now, you completely confuse me here, OzmO. What are you talking about? I'm asking a very simple question and you, once again, refuse to answer. That is exactly my point. "Greek pederasty" is child molestation. However, in those days, by Greek moral standards, it was not considered child molestation. Why, OzmO? Why wasn't it considered child molestation? Where was the "god" inside then?
You said that your criteria for knowing if something is moral or immoral is seeing a person's suffering. I understand that. But what if you are neither the "mentor" nor the "student" and you have no part at all in the act. How would you have known? What sets the moral standard then? This is exactly what happened to that society.
here we go again, using "all" to make a point in describing poeple on something 2300 years ago. Do you use "every" and "always" too when you get in arguments?
Here I did say "all of Greece", not all Greeks as individuals. And again, I did not say that they all participated in the act. I said that they, as a society accepted the act as good and moral. By that I mean that it wasn't just one state or just one small group of people who accepted the act as moral.
What do you mean here?
I was pointing out that 16th century Japan was screwed up and now it's progressed. they don;t kill as a matter of practice when someone doesn't pay the appropriate respect to a samuri.
I wasn't talking about Japan. I was talking about how societies before Greece did not consider having sex with boys something good and moral. My point is that when it comes to morality, history shows us that societies can and have regressed at times. It can and will probably continue to happen. What is moral today may be immoral tomorrow, and vice versa. So again, what sets the moral standards?
Again you are making an "all" assumption. Remember i'm not saying you can't get morals from the Bible, i'm saying the bible isn't the 100% word of god.
If i was a greek, i would have been present in the act as a boy.
So slavery is moral then? You're ok with that?
Hey man, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. my point here is that the Bible is not the 100% word of god and you have done quite a lot in this debate to convince me of just that.
And also, it's too bad you do not have the confidence in yourself and of the tools and access to God which he gave you from birth as his creation, instead your security and direction lies in a book.
You see, murdering 3000 people is wrong. Anyone can see that, just like they can with slavery. But a person who's shut off part of his common sense (another great gift from God) will be sure find some alibi to justify it.
OzmO, pretend for a second that I'm not a Christian and that I do not believe in the Bible. Pretend I'm a lost, confused soul who is looking for answers. Pretend I'm asking you to give me a reason for your faith and to answer these questions for me. Who sets the standards for morality? What went wrong with ancient Greece? What went wrong with so many Germans during WWII and their hate and obsession with annihilating Jews for no other reason than the fact that they are Jews?
That's all I was trying to do, to find out what "answers" you have. To get you to give me a reason for your faith.
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I'm sorry OzmO! I am not sure what it is that I said that offended you, but I apologize. It was not my intention.
OzmO, when I say "All Greeks", I don't mean all Greeks as individuals. I meant all of Greece, as in Sparta, Athens, etc., at that time believed the practice was moral. Most men did not have sex with boys, but most of the population believed that it was moral. It is very possible that there were individuals that did not believe that it was moral. But I said this in reply to your comments below, which according to history, are not correct.
Yes, it was considered moral. Not all men had sex with boys back then. That is not my point. My point is that "most", if you want me to put it that way, believed that it was moral, even if they did not participate.
It wasn't a small part of that culture, OzmO.
Do I tell myself what? OzmO, this is world history. Don't argue with me. Argue with the historians. I already told you, read about "Greek pederasty". Then you'll see that it was considered "moral" and not by a "small" group of people.
I agree that children were suffering. My question to you was, what about the great majority who did not participate in the act, who were not aware of the child's suffering, who thought the practice was moral? How would these people know that what they thought was moral was actually very immoral? What sets the moral standard for them?
Now, you completely confuse me here, OzmO. What are you talking about? I'm asking a very simple question and you, once again, refuse to answer. That is exactly my point. "Greek pederasty" is child molestation. However, in those days, by Greek moral standards, it was not considered child molestation. Why, OzmO? Why wasn't it considered child molestation? Where was the "god" inside then?
If it wasn't "ALL" Greeks you should have said that or said what you finally said:
OzmO, when I say "All Greeks", I don't mean all Greeks as individuals. I meant all of Greece, as in Sparta, Athens, etc., at that time believed the practice was moral. Most men did not have sex with boys, but most of the population believed that it was moral. It is very possible that there were individuals that did not believe that it was moral. But I said this in reply to your comments below, which according to history, are not correct.
It leads the reader to believe otherwise. now you are using the word: "most" which is probably more accurate. and although most of the society might have seen nothing wrong with it, there were many that did.
They didn't need to have to be present during the act to see it harmed the child, they only needed to be present after the act to see that or were part of the act to begin with when they were children.
You see, NOT everyone listens to their heart, listen to God inside them. It's sad because if more people would, I'm sure there would be so much less suffering in the world.
I wasn't talking about Japan. I was talking about how societies before Greece did not consider having sex with boys something good and moral. My point is that when it comes to morality, history shows us that societies can and have regressed at times. It can and will probably continue to happen. What is moral today may be immoral tomorrow, and vice versa. So again, what sets the moral standards?
I don't think societies will continue to regress in terms of moral standards that harm people mainly because of the information world we now live in. It may and is regressing in standards that are debatable such as sex and demonstrations of violence on TV and Movies.. Both of these things are due to the increased transfer of knowledge and information via the media and internet.
So what sets moral standards? Several things:
- Yes, books like the bible and other religious books
- Personal experiences
- Your parents and other people you respect.
- The thing inside you that tells you right from wrong which is part of God inside you.
I agree with you.....morals can be found in the Bible and be used as a guide. Some people need that more than others. My problem with the Bible is that i don't believe it's the 100% word of God and believe many of things in it are suspect as a result. A good example being homosexuality versus Slavery. And it's used to guilt people into acting a certain way, persecute others, amass money, etc....
OzmO, pretend for a second that I'm not a Christian and that I do not believe in the Bible. Pretend I'm a lost, confused soul who is looking for answers. Pretend I'm asking you to give me a reason for your faith and to answer these questions for me. Who sets the standards for morality? What went wrong with ancient Greece? What went wrong with so many Germans during WWII and their hate and obsession with annihilating Jews for no other reason than the fact that they are Jews?
That's all I was trying to do, to find out what "answers" you have. To get you to give me a reason for your faith.
i was once a lost confused soul. I was found by God in a Christian Church and continued my spiritual growth beyond that. I'll tell you more later.... Got a meeting right now.
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The mere fact the "god" described in the Bible gives advice or direction on purchasing slaves, treating children of other families as "property", selling daughters as slaves and keeping them slaves longer than men, is reprehensible and not indicative or representative of, Jesus or God. And then at the same time making homosexuality a sin?
Still, the Bible never openly or clearly says that slavery is okay or that it is a good thing. Owning slaves may not be clearly portrayed as an immoral thing to do in the Bible, but it does portray setting slaves free as a positive thing.
OzmO, I don't have all the answers and I don't always understand God.
I believe God is teaching us something, as individuals throughout our lifetime, and as a human race, throughout history. He wants us to learn and to grow. In the case of slavery, Israelites had been slaves in Egypt and were oppressed for generations. After God set them free, it was Israel's turn to own slaves. God set guidelines for Israel on slavery. Would Israel treat slaves better than Egypt treated them? Would Israel oppress slaves? Would they set slaves free?
In life, we are some times put on both sides of the fence for a reason. I dont' know what that reason is.
Deuteronomy 15:12-15
12If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. 13 And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. 14 Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you.
15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.
Deuteronomy 24:19-22
When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. 20 When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. 21 When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow.
22 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt. That is why I command you to do this.
this is the crap that Slavery was justified with by white westerners for years.
Yet, the men most influential in the abolition of slavery in the west were Christians and believers in the Bible.
America:
John Brown
Frederick Douglass
Abraham Lincoln
Britain:
William Wilberforce
Granville Sharp
Thomas Clarkson
That is pathetic. It looks like the word of Satan to me.
How can you sit there and say the bible is the word of God when "god" is giving out advice on how to manage slaves?
And you call this book a moral compass? ::)
That is not GOD.
So, 80% of it is the word of God and 20% is the word of Satan?
OzmO, anybody can take anything out of any religious book and use it to justify their evil deeds. That doesn't mean that the book is evil.
Slavery is just part, a dark part, of world history. In many cases, it was a way to pay your debt if you were unable to pay otherwise, "file for bankruptcy". It was a way to discourage people from borrowing money that they knew they couldn't repay. It is wrong, but it happened. Today we have much better ways to handle and penalize bankruptcy.
I don't see God in the Bible commanding me to own and oppress slaves. That's ridiculous. If you see it that way, if that's how you interpret it, that's fine. But true Christians do not interpret it that way. See the men above, who believed in the Bible and who fought slavery. It was their very Christian beliefs that inspired them to fight slavery.
Deuteronomy 23:15-16
15 “You shall not give back to his master the slave who has escaped from his master to you. 16 He may dwell with you in your midst, in the place which he chooses within one of your gates, where it seems best to him; you shall not oppress him."
Isaiah 58:6
"Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?"
Jeremiah 34:10
So all the officials and people who entered into this covenant agreed that they would free their male and female slaves and no longer hold them in bondage. They agreed, and set them free.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
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Will this all loving God accept the different doctrines that the Christian denominations translate in to being right with him? Each denomination has a different view on certain passages and will curtail them to fit their beliefs. Who is right here? And how do you know?
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Will this all loving God accept the different doctrines that the Christian denominations translate in to being right with him? Each denomination has a different view on certain passages and will curtail them to fit their beliefs. Who is right here? And how do you know?
They all agree on eternal life only through faith in Jesus Christ, don't they? What Christian denomination does not believe this?
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They all agree on eternal life only through faith in Jesus Christ, don't they? What Christian denomination does not believe this?
I'm sure they all do, however being from a Catholic background, I know for a fact that many Catholics idolize statues, though they claim it's just an image. This is against God's commandments and a sin that continues because the Catholic church doesn't have anything against this type of worship. Now in your opinion, how can they be "saved" and be accepted by an all loving God when they are purposely breaking a most promenant commandment? And if leadership of this denomination doesn't regard this as sinful, then the followers are just sheep, doing what they perceive is accepted because of being raised that way.
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I'm sure they all do, however being from a Catholic background, I know for a fact that many Catholics idolize statues, though they claim it's just an image. This is against God's commandments and a sin that continues because the Catholic church doesn't have anything against this type of worship. Now in your opinion, how can they be "saved" and be accepted by an all loving God when they are purposely breaking a most promenant commandment? And if leadership of this denomination doesn't regard this as sinful, then the followers are just sheep, doing what they perceive is accepted because of being raised that way.
I know of a Roman Catholic monk who would have agreed with you. His name is Martin Luther.
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I know of a Roman Catholic monk who would have agreed with you. His name is Martin Luther.
So is God going to save these worshippers?
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So is God going to save these worshippers?
If they have truly placed their faith in Jesus Christ, then YES.
If they truly have placed their faith in Jesus Christ, according to the Bible, Jesus Christ will then show them the sin in their life, He will give them the desire to abandon that sin, and He will give the the power to abandon that sin.
It is all part of the spiritual growth that I had posted about earlier. So these Roman Catholics who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ will soon realize that praying to statues is a sin and they will abandon that practice. That is what Martin Luther, and many other Roman Catholics throughout history have done.
If say, they happen to die before they get to that point in their spiritual growth, the point at which they learn that praying to statues is a sin, they do go to heaven because they have placed their faith in Jesus Christ and were in the process of growing spiritually.
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If they have truly placed their faith in Jesus Christ, then YES.
If they truly have placed their faith in Jesus Christ, according to the Bible, Jesus Christ will then show them the sin in their life, He will give them the desire to abandon that sin, and He will give the the power to abandon that sin.
It is all part of the spiritual growth that I had posted about earlier. So these Roman Catholics who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ will soon realize that praying to statues is a sin and they will abandon that practice. That is what Martin Luther, and many other Roman Catholics throughout history have done.
If say, they happen to die before they get to that point in their spiritual growth, the point at which they learn that praying to statues is a sin, they do go to heaven because they have placed their faith in Jesus Christ and were in the process of growing spiritually.
And if they haven't grown spiritually?
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And if they haven't grown spiritually?
What do you mean? If they haven't grown spiritually to the point at which they learn that praying to statues is a sin? Or, if they do not grow spiritually at all in any area?
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Still, the Bible never openly or clearly says that slavery is okay or that it is a good thing. Owning slaves may not be clearly portrayed as an immoral thing to do in the Bible, but it does portray setting slaves free as a positive thing.
OzmO, I don't have all the answers and I don't always understand God.
I believe God is teaching us something, as individuals throughout our lifetime, and as a human race, throughout history. He wants us to learn and to grow. In the case of slavery, Israelites had been slaves in Egypt and were oppressed for generations. After God set them free, it was Israel's turn to own slaves. God set guidelines for Israel on slavery. Would Israel treat slaves better than Egypt treated them? Would Israel oppress slaves? Would they set slaves free?
In life, we are some times put on both sides of the fence for a reason. I dont' know what that reason is.
Deuteronomy 15:12-15
12If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years, in the seventh year you must let him go free. 13 And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. 14 Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you.
15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.
Deuteronomy 24:19-22
When you are harvesting in your field and you overlook a sheaf, do not go back to get it. Leave it for the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. 20 When you beat the olives from your trees, do not go over the branches a second time. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow. 21 When you harvest the grapes in your vineyard, do not go over the vines again. Leave what remains for the alien, the fatherless and the widow.
22 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt. That is why I command you to do this.
Yet, the men most influential in the abolition of slavery in the west were Christians and believers in the Bible.
America:
John Brown
Frederick Douglass
Abraham Lincoln
Britain:
William Wilberforce
Granville Sharp
Thomas Clarkson
Sorry but this is the "word of God' and in it he gives guidelines on owning and dealing in slaves, and even goes as far as describing Children as someone's property.
Imagine if this were "Murder". And while God never condones it, he does talk about how to kill someone, how to plan and murder or even how to murder a child.
How can talk of slavery be the word of God?
If the Word of God can be so easily manipulated how can it be the Word of God? Sholdn't the Word of God be something simple and everlasting free from tampering and abuse?
Like for Example: "Do on to others and you would have them do to you"? Or, "thou shall not Kill?"
But yet we see in this bible so many instances of "man made dogma" How can this be the word of God? At the very least these are conflicting messages and therefore can not be the 100% word of God.
So, 80% of it is the word of God and 20% is the word of Satan?
I said this mainly for effect. Mainly because talk of slavery is so off base. Here we have on one hand, God talking about slavery and then God talking about the evils of homosexuality.
Think about it......Slavery and all the associated evils vs. something that's has no victims and is consensual.
The talk of Slavery in the bible is a historical account written from the writers perspective and Homosexuality in "Paul's" version is church doctrine. This is not "God" talking here.
OzmO, anybody can take anything out of any religious book and use it to justify their evil deeds. That doesn't mean that the book is evil.
That's the problem and there in lies more reason that the bible isn't the word of God. A true holy book or words could not easily be taken a twisted to turn fanatics into murders.
Slavery is just part, a dark part, of world history. In many cases, it was a way to pay your debt if you were unable to pay otherwise, "file for bankruptcy". It was a way to discourage people from borrowing money that they knew they couldn't repay. It is wrong, but it happened. Today we have much better ways to handle and penalize bankruptcy.
In many cases it was a result of not being able to pay debts? How about conquered peoples? How about kidnapped children from peaceful villages? You're saying that it was a way to discourage going in debt and there fore it's justified in the bible? ::)
I don't see God in the Bible commanding me to own and oppress slaves. That's ridiculous. If you see it that way, if that's how you interpret it, that's fine. But true Christians do not interpret it that way. See the men above, who believed in the Bible and who fought slavery. It was their very Christian beliefs that inspired them to fight slavery.
Was it their Christian beliefs or was it their inner beliefs? Probably a combination of both. But how many less problems, how many less years..... of slavery would there have been without the references and guidelines in the Bible to owning, buying, and treating slaves, if there was one simple denunciation of slavery all together in it? But yet, we take a Human activity with no victim and make it sin?
Very un-divine.
Thisi is what's very twisted among other things about the Bible and Christianity. Here's another:
My nephew-in-law's parents are very religious Christians like your self. My nephew is 10 years old. He's been allowed to watch "saving private Ryan" you ever see that? Very violent movie. I was over at there house one day, and there was a some what violent western on. He was allowed to watch it6, but when there was a "kissing" scene he was told to cover his eyes.
Can you imagine the message here? Violence is ok, But human affection based on love isn't........at age 10. And we wonder why we have problems in our society. (of course many other things contribute to the problems we have like: the sexual exploitation, materialism and TV in general)
this is much like the slavery/homo sexual comparison. Misdirected values from a Book that's supposedly the "word of God"
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What do you mean? If they haven't grown spiritually to the point at which they learn that praying to statues is a sin? Or, if they do not grow spiritually at all in any area?
If you 've ever been to a Catholic mass, it's basically the same routine every week, except for the sermon. Looking around, I could see in people's eyes that they were just there because it was the way they were taught. Are they learning anything? I doubt it. If you ask most Catholics, they believe having a rosary and a statue of Mary protects them in their home. Now devotion to this type of thinking would lead me to believe they are not growing more spirtually, but just following rituals that they were taught when they were young.
What's even funnier to me is how other denominations criticize other denominations on there interpretations. Let's face it, according to the Bible, there is really only one denomination, the other are wolves in sheeps clothing. So who are the wolves?
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Imagine if this were "Murder". And while God never condones it, he does talk about how to kill someone, how to plan and murder or even how to murder a child.
Sorry, but I missed something. Can you show me where God tells us how to plan the murder of a child?
How can talk of slavery be the word of God?
I already told you how.
If the Word of God can be so easily manipulated how can it be the Word of God?
You make it sound as if the Word of God was easier to manipulate than anything else. OzmO, people are easily manipulated. The laws in your own United States of America are very easily manipulated. So what's you point?
You say that part of the Bible is the word of God. Take anyone of those parts and show me how it cannot be manipulated. You do believe that at least that one part is the word of God, right? Yet, it can be manipulated.
Shouldn't the Word of God be something simple and everlasting free from tampering and abuse?
I don't see why it should. But if you think it should, I don't know. Ask God. If it were something simple, I personally would doubt that it came from an infinite God. I believe that it is everlasting and free from tampering. Free from abuse? No, it is not free from abuse. People have free will and can abuse even the word of God and God will hold them accountable for it.
If it were a "magic" book, with "supernatural" power, people would turn it into an idol and worship the book instead of God.
Like for Example: "Do on to others and you would have them do to you"? Or, "thou shall not Kill?"
But yet we see in this bible so many instances of "man made dogma" How can this be the word of God? At the very least these are conflicting messages and therefore can not be the 100% word of God.
Man made dogma? Conflicting messages? These are your personal believes and not mine. You are free to believe anything you want.
I said this mainly for effect. Mainly because talk of slavery is so off base. Here we have on one hand, God talking about slavery and then God talking about the evils of homosexuality.
OzmO, I don't believe that any Christian on this board has brought up homosexuality in this particular thread. Why do you keep on bringing up homosexuality?
Think about it......Slavery and all the associated evils vs. something that's has no victims and is consensual.
Homosexuality has no victims? OzmO, what if a few years from now, a well conducted study, not by Christians, shows that a child raised by two homosexual men who are open about their homosexuality is traumatizing, harmful and destructive to the child emotionally, mentally and socially? What if that happened? How do you know it's not happening now? We don't know. All I know is that God said a man shall not have sex with another man and that the act is detestable to God and an abomination.
I don't know about you, but I have no desire to have sex with another man, but even if I did want to, I wouldn't do it because the Bible says it's evil.
I'm not going to sit around and wait for a scientific study or for society to catch up, to tell me what is moral and what is immoral.
The talk of Slavery in the bible is a historical account written from the writers perspective and Homosexuality in "Paul's" version is church doctrine. This is not "God" talking here.
Homosexuality? Church dogma? OzmO, the church started with Jesus Christ. Homosexuality is condemned in the Old Testament. Paul is simply talking about something that had been condemned by God for hundreds of years. How can this be "church dogma"?
And why do you bash the Bible on homosexuality? Christianity teaches love for everybody, even homosexuals. Other religions that do not believe the Bible is the word of God also condemn homosexuality, but even make it a crime punishable by death.
That's the problem and there in lies more reason that the bible isn't the word of God. A true holy book or words could not easily be taken a twisted to turn fanatics into murders.
Not necessarily. What about the murderer who doesn't read the Bible, yet murders and then says "god told me to do it", the "god" inside speaking to him?
In many cases it was a result of not being able to pay debts? How about conquered peoples? How about kidnapped children from peaceful villages? You're saying that it was a way to discourage going in debt and there fore it's justified in the bible? ::)
OzmO,
All I was saying is that slavery has always been part of history. Slavery was around since before the days of Noah. Are you blaming the Bible for all the slavery in the history of the world?
Was it their Christian beliefs or was it their inner beliefs? Probably a combination of both.
It was their Christian beliefs. Christians believe in the Bible, and they live their lives by it. And if a little inner voice, inner emotion or feeling contradicts the Bible, we go with the Bible. That's what we believe. Look at the verses I posted about freeing slaves. The Bible promotes setting slaves free. The Bible even gives detailed guidelines on how to properly set a slave free "And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress" (Deuteronomy 15:13-14)
OzmO, you got to give credit where credit is due. When a Christian does something good, you say it was their inner belief. When a Christian does something bad, you say it is the Bible. I'm not even going to roll my eyes here. It's obvious that no matter what, your mind is already made up on arguing that the Bible is not the word of God.
But how many less problems, how many less years..... of slavery would there have been without the references and guidelines in the Bible to owning, buying, and treating slaves, if there was one simple denunciation of slavery all together in it? But yet, we take a Human activity with no victim and make it sin?
Very un-divine.
Oh, so now, according to you, slavery and all the evils of the world are the Bible's fault. According to you, if the Bible had not mentioned slavery, slavery would never have existed. Yeah, sure. What about "Greek pederasty"? The Bible condemns it, yet it didn't stop Greece from practicing it in the past and believing it to be moral. And what of the Christians who fought slavery because the Bible inspired them to free slaves?
Thisi is what's very twisted among other things about the Bible and Christianity. Here's another:
My nephew-in-law's parents are very religious Christians like your self. My nephew is 10 years old. He's been allowed to watch "saving private Ryan" you ever see that? Very violent movie. I was over at there house one day, and there was a some what violent western on. He was allowed to watch it6, but when there was a "kissing" scene he was told to cover his eyes.
Can you imagine the message here? Violence is ok, But human affection based on love isn't........at age 10. And we wonder why we have problems in our society.
this is much like the slavery/homo sexual comparison. Misdirected values from a Book that's supposedly the "word of God"
The Bible never says that owning and oppressing slaves is good. It does say that freeing slaves is good. But it does clearly say that homosexuality is bad. You can compare the two all you want to, but your point in mute. Why don't you find something else other than slavery in the Bible to compare it to homosexuality? If the Bible is the word of Satan, according to you, then you shouldn't have a problem finding where God takes something evil and clearly, without a doubt, says that it is good, right OzmO?
About your nephew-in-law's parents, if the way that they raise their child bothers you so much that you are posting it here for the whole world to read, then you should probably be having this discussion with the parents and not with me.
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Sorry, but I missed something. Can you show me where God tells us how to plan the murder of a child?
Are we having problems reading today?
Imagine if this were "Murder". And while God never condones it, he does talk about how to kill someone, how to plan and murder or even how to murder a child.
You make it sound as if the Word of God was easier to manipulate than anything else. OzmO, people are easily manipulated. The laws in your own United States of America are very easily manipulated. So what's you point?
You say that part of the Bible is the word of God. Take anyone of those parts and show me how it cannot be manipulated. You do believe that at least that one part is the word of God, right? Yet, it can be manipulated.
OK try: "do on to others...." and manipulate it without having a "victim".
I don't see why it should. But if you think it should, I don't know. Ask God. If it were something simple, I personally would doubt that it came from an infinite God. I believe that it is everlasting and free from tampering. Free from abuse? No, it is not free from abuse. People have free will and can abuse even the word of God and God will hold them accountable for it.
You don;t see why the word of god should be something ever lasting and simple, all the while people have "abused" this bible for their own ends and people have suffered for it? Sorry got to eye roll here ::)
Man made dogma? Conflicting messages? These are your personal believes and not mine. You are free to believe anything you want.
Of course it's not conflicting, in your opinion, because that would shatter the foundation of your beliefs. So even though GOd teaches slavery it's OK with you.
Homosexuality has no victims? OzmO, what if a few years from now, a well conducted study, not by Christians, shows that a child raised by two homosexual men who are open about their homosexuality is traumatizing, harmful and destructive to the child emotionally, mentally and socially? What if that happened? How do you know it's not happening now? We don't know. All I know is that God said a man shall not have sex with another man and that the act is detestable to God and an abomination.
I believe that childred of Homosexual unions in certain areas of our country would have problems. But these children would be victims of a religious based culture not direct intended victims such as Slavery.
Get it now?
OzmO, I don't believe that any Christian on this board has brought up homosexuality in this particular thread. Why do you keep on bringing up homosexuality?
because it's a great example to compare it too. Slavery vs a life style choice.
I don't know about you, but I have no desire to have sex with another man, but even if I did want to, I wouldn't do it because the Bible says it's evil.
I don't either, in fact i don't know why any would want to..... but that's another discussion: Is Homosexuality something you are born with?"
I'm not going to sit around and wait for a scientific study or for society to catch up, to tell me what is moral and what is immoral.
You don't need to wait because between 2 consenting adults there are no victims.
Homosexuality? Church dogma? OzmO, the church started with Jesus Christ. Homosexuality is condemned in the Old Testament. Paul is simply talking about something that had been condemned by God for hundreds of years. How can this be "church dogma"?
No, homosexuality was condemned by both cultures. and slavery wasn't condemned, in fact it was encouraged and taught in the bible .
And why do you bash the Bible on homosexuality? Christianity teaches love for everybody, even homosexuals. Other religions that do not believe the Bible is the word of God also condemn homosexuality, but even make it a crime punishable by death.
Not necessarily. What about the murderer who doesn't read the Bible, yet murders and then says "god told me to do it", the "god" inside speaking to him?
[/quote]
At this point we don't know what's really going on a murderers head.... remember Cho, could have very well been born again.
The "WOG" in the Bible and in other religious books are beyond reproach: Show me how to twist and abuse: "thou shall not kill"
OzmO,
All I was saying is that slavery has always been part of history. Slavery was around since before the days of Noah. Are you blaming the Bible for all the slavery in the history of the world?
No, I'm blaming the supposed word of God for not STOPPING IT. just one denunciation would have saved the suffering of countless people. but yet we have the Word of GOd teaching us how to own slaves.
If you can't see there err in that than you have gone beyond brain washing.
OzmO,
It was their Christian beliefs. Christians believe in the Bible, and they live their lives by it. And if a little inner voice, inner emotion or feeling contradicts the Bible, we go with the Bible. That's what we believe. Look at the verses I posted about freeing slaves. The Bible promotes setting slaves free. The Bible even gives detailed guidelines on how to properly set a slave free "And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. Supply him liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress" (Deuteronomy 15:13-14)
OzmO, you got to give credit where credit is due. When a Christian does something good, you say it was their inner belief. When a Christian does something bad, you say it is the Bible. I'm not even going to roll my eyes here. It's obvious that no matter what, your mind is already made up on arguing that the Bible is not the word of God.
No i do not say that. I say it's a combination. I say for myself it's mostly God inside me. And i say we all have that ability if we chose to use it and that if we do we will clearly see just how much of "man" is disguised as the word of god.
Oh, so now, according to you, slavery and all the evils of the world are the Bible's fault. According to you, if the Bible had not mentioned slavery, slavery would never have existed. Yeah, sure. What about "Greek pederasty"? The Bible condemns it, yet it didn't stop Greece from practicing it in the past and believing it to be moral. And what of the Christians who fought slavery because the Bible inspired them to free slaves?
No, i did not say if it wasn't for the Bible slavery would not have existed. (if i did, it's becuase i didn;t proof read my post enough ) I said that if the Bible had denounced it it would have stopped sooner.
And here you go again with "ALL" did i ever say that the Bible is to blame for "ALL" evils of the world.
You getting so quick to judge and label loco, and i think you'll be condemning me to hell soon.
The Bible never says that owning and oppressing slaves is good. It does say that freeing slaves is good. But it does clearly says that homosexuality is bad. You can compare the two all you want to, but your point in mute. Why don't you find something else other than slavery in the Bible to compare it to homosexuality? If the Bible is the word of Satan, according to you, then you shouldn't have a problem finding where God takes something evil and clearly, without a doubt, says that it is good, right OzmO?
About your nephew-in-law's parents, if the way that they raise their child bothers you so much that you are posting it here for the whole world to read, then you should probably be having this discussion with the parents and not with me.
Her ewe go with taking the wrong meaning again. I explained it to you what i meant. do i need to again? And about my nephew, i was giving an example not asking for advice.
please read closer next time.
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Are we having problems reading today?
OK try: "do on to others...." and manipulate it without having a "victim".
Sorry got to eye roll here ::)
Of course it's not conflicting, in your opinion, because that would shatter the foundation of
Get it now?
If you can't see there err in that than you have gone beyond brain washing.
And here you go again with "ALL" did i ever say that the Bible is to blame for "ALL" evils of the world.
You getting so quick to judge and label loco, and i think you'll be condemning me to hell soon.
Her ewe go with taking the wrong meaning again. I explained it to you what i meant. do i need to again?
please read closer next time.
OzmO, I was being serious about my questions. Instead of answering, look at all the cynical, sarcastic, insulting remarks you post. Then you call me arrogant, judgmental and condemning? Look in the mirror.
Just let me know when you are ready to have a discussion. ;D
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OzmO, I was being serious about my questions. Instead of answering, look at all the cynical, sarcastic, insulting remarks you post. Then you call me arrogant, judgmental and condemning? Look in the mirror.
Just let me know when you are ready to have a discussion. ;D
loco, then don't put words in my mouth or lump me into a "all" statement or incorrectly translate the meaning of my words when they obviously say something different.
Example:
Quote from: loco on Today at 12:01:37 PM
Sorry, but I missed something. Can you show me where God tells us how to plan the murder of a child?
Are we having problems reading today?
Quote
Imagine if this were "Murder". And while God never condones it, he does talk about how to kill someone, how to plan and murder or even how to murder a child.
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another example:
Quote from: loco on Today at 12:01:37 PM
Oh, so now, according to you, slavery and all the evils of the world are the Bible's fault.
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hmmm ..............it seems like as soon as you get exposed you cry foul pretty quick.
part of having an intelligent discussion is being accurate about what the other person said and not lump their statements into a different meaning.
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Have a good day, OzmO! Hope it all works out for you! ;D
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Have a good day, OzmO! Hope it all works out for you! ;D
You too, loco, sorry it got too hot and real in the kitchen for you. Sorry you had to address real issues regarding of what's really said in the Bible. ;)
P.S. sorry if you took offense to any of my posts. Just as you don't appreciate someone mis quoting the Bible, I don't appreciate people putting words in my mouth.
P.P.S.S. And i do apologize if i offended you in anyway.
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Have a good day, OzmO! Hope it all works out for you! ;D
HAHAHAHA! Love thy enemy! ;D