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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: loco on May 25, 2007, 06:25:04 AM
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...and there is no morality without religion. Therefore, democracy without religion does not work.
Freedom brings responsibility. If you do not want a king, dictator or big government to rule over your life, then you must learn to rule over your own life with morality and integrity.
Why does democracy not work in countries like Venezuela and Cuba? Corruption.
Why has democracy worked in the US up until recently? Because the founding fathers were moral and religious people who came up with a heck of a constitution and with a heck of a form government that hasn't significantly changed in over 200 years.
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...and there is no morality without religion. Therefore, democracy without religion does not work.
Freedom brings responsibility. If you do not want a king, dictator or big government to rule over your life, then you must learn to rule over your own life with morality and integrity.
Why does democracy not work in countries like Venezuela and Cuba? Corruption.
Why has democracy worked in the US up until recently? Because the founding fathers were moral and religious people who came up with a heck of a constitution and with a heck of a form government that hasn't significantly changed in over 200 years.
Well said, Loco!!!! And history backs up these statements.
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Total BS. :-\
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Total BS. :-\
Case closed. :P
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Which morality are we talking about?
The one where moses kills 3000 people and says God told him to do it?
Or the one where the Bible shows people how to buy and sell children slaves?
Or maybe where Lot offers up his virgin daughters to a sex crazed mob?
I do Agree with you however,...... We as a species, at the moment, are not mature enough to know what's right or wrong without someone telling us.
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...and there is no morality without religion. Therefore, democracy without religion does not work.
Freedom brings responsibility. If you do not want a king, dictator or big government to rule over your life, then you must learn to rule over your own life with morality and integrity.
Why does democracy not work in countries like Venezuela and Cuba? Corruption.
Why has democracy worked in the US up until recently? Because the founding fathers were moral and religious people who came up with a heck of a constitution and with a heck of a form government that hasn't significantly changed in over 200 years.
Sorry, but you're wrong. You get an "A" for effort, though.
But an "F" for general performance.
The reason why democracy isn't working in some places have actually been studied by Robert Putnam.
It has to do with social capital.
Where there's lots of social capital, there is a good foundation for democracy.
Where there's a lack of social capital, there is not.
Social capital is founded with things such as choirs, bowling clubs and other kinds of local organisations where citizens bonds and bridges.
I suggest you to read Putnam's first book:
Making Democracy Work: Civic Traditions in Modern Italy
Then, read his most famous work:
Bowling Alone
FWIW, the religious reference you're making is ridiculous: Look at countries like Iran, Venezuela, et al. These are countries that are very religious. Southern Italy is very religious, but is more corrupt than the Northern Italy, Northern Italy which is more secular.
Like I stated: An "A" for effort. But "F" for general performance.
-Hedge
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I think loco is spot on.
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George Washington
Farewell Address, 1796:
Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens.… And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion.… Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.
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George Washington
Farewell Address, 1796:
Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens.… And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion.… Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.
Back then morality couldn't operate alone and we still are not capable of governing without a moral compass that is based on religious values. This is as a whole. On an individual level there are many people who don't need religion to tell them wrong from right.
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It depends on what is meant by “religion”. If by religion, you mean:
1. the sublimation of fears and impulses into a divine ideal—I would disagree b/c that is a religion of fear, or if you mean
2. the religiosity of Church structure where the religion of fear is used by an elite/ruling class to further the ends of that class—I would disagree b/c that is a form of social control, or if you mean
3. the experience of a/the mystery of existence from reason/art’s limited grasp of it, then I think you may have something.
I believe that the founders who were Deists had a superior understanding of religion that was more in line with #3 above than with #1 or #2 as it exists today in our popular culture.
John Locke, the Magna Carta, experience from the 13 colonies and former British rule informed the authors of the Constitution. Not religion from #1 or #2 above.
We the people in order to form a more perfect union
Establish justice and ensure domestic tranquility
Provide for the common defense
Promote the general welfare and
Secure the blessings of liberty
For ourselves and our posterity
Do ordain and establish this Constitution.
Granted that's off the top of my head, but I don't see implementing God's will there.
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Samuel Adams
Letter to John Adams, 4 October 1790:
Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age, by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, of inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity and universal philanthropy, and, in subordination to these great principles, the love of their country; of instructing them in the art of self-government without which they never can act a wise part in the government of societies, great or small; in short, of leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.
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"Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." -- Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802.
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Also, in it's pure form...Democracy doesn't work either. I once heard somewhere that every pure democracy ended in a dictatorship.
republics like the USA based on democracies work.
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Benjamin Franklin
Letter to Messrs, the Abbes Chalut, and Arnaud, 17 April 1787:
Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.
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Benjamin Franklin
Letter to Messrs, the Abbes Chalut, and Arnaud, 17 April 1787:
Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.
vir·tu·ous /ˈvɜrtʃuəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vur-choo-uhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. conforming to moral and ethical principles; morally excellent; upright: Lead a virtuous life.
2. chaste: a virtuous young person.
I agree ;)
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Also, in it's pure form...Democracy doesn't work either. I once heard somewhere that every pure democracy ended in a dictatorship.
republics like the USA based on democracies work.
The essence of a true democracy is the lynch mob.
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George Washington
Farewell Address, 1796:
Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens.… And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion.… Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.
Instead of citing George Washington, why don't you address my post instead.
Let me put it as a question, perhaps that will clear things up a bit:
Why are religious countries like Iran, Romania, and Venezuela (yes, very religious country) less democratic than secular countries like Sweden, England, Austria or Finland?
-Hedge
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"Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." -- Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802.
Thomas Jefferson
Notes on Virginia, 1782:
God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God ? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.
Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803
Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.
Jan 9, 1816 Letter to Charles Thomson
It is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.
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Thomas Jefferson
Notes on Virginia, 1782:
God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God ? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.
Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803
Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.
Jan 9, 1816 Letter to Charles Thomson
It is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.
These are all wonderful quotes you show but I don't know what point you are trying to make. Your quotes show admiration and appreciation for religion.
"God" to the founders had a special meaning. The rights created in the social contract aka the US Constitution are god given b/c that denies any authority of the British Crown. That's a very good way of incorporating Locke's idea into the document.
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Hopefully, this link will explain it all to loco:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/wtwtgod/3518375.stm
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/04/world_what_the_world_thinks_of_god/img/1.jpg)
-Hedge
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Whose morality will be the rule for all others to follow?
Christianity is the most popular religion in the U.S.A yet I and many others don't agree with much of their dogma and don't want to be ruled by it.
I agree with the overall point that morality must play a role but not with the point that morality can not survive or thrive without religion.
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Sorry, but you're wrong. You get an "A" for effort, though.
But an "F" for general performance.
Thanks, Hedge! ;D
Social capital is founded with things such as choirs, bowling clubs and other kinds of local organisations where citizens bonds and bridges.
I suggest you to read Putnam's first book:
Making Democracy Work: Civic Traditions in Modern Italy
Then, read his most famous work:
Bowling Alone
FWIW, the religious reference you're making is ridiculous: Look at countries like Iran, Venezuela, et al. These are countries that are very religious.
Social capital? Nice theory, but it does not apply to Venezuela.
Venezuela has plenty of social capital.
Have you ever lived in Venezuela? Venezuela religious? No, not religious.
Define religious for me, Hedge. Saying that you believe in God or saying that you are a Christian does not make you religious, moral or a person of integrity.
99% of the Venezuela population profess to be Roman Catholic, "profess". Most of those 99% do not go to church, do not practice religion in any form, do not believe in helping the needy, do not believe in the greater good of others. Sure, there are good, moral religious people of integrity in every country, but in Venezuela there is corruption from the richest of richest to the poorest of the poorest. There is a belief that it is not wrong to sin or break the law as long as you don't get caught. Yes, there is a minority of good religious people in Venezuela, but generally in Venezuela you are taught from childhood to get to the top even if it takes stepping on other people. You are taught that it is okay to be corrupt as long as you don't get caught.
Don't believe me? Go live there for a few years, not as a tourist, but as a local.
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...and there is no morality without religion. Therefore, democracy without religion does not work.
If you're looking for morality, don't look to religious people.
The "morality" of the religious founding fathers and generations of their ancestors included genocide of the indigenous people of this land, slavery, lack of rights for women, and other various forms of exploitation. All so that the rich white "religious" men in power could reap the rewards. Very similar to today's ruling class and our foreign policy.
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Thomas Jefferson
Notes on Virginia, 1782:
God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God ? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever.
Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803
Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.
Jan 9, 1816 Letter to Charles Thomson
It is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.
Copying and pasting stuff doesn't back up your arguement, as there are plenty of quotes by the founding fathers preaching seperation of church and state.
Infact, thinking morality comes from faith is a fallacy. Morality comes out of respect for your fellow man. I think people knew stealing was wrong way before the 10 commandments and I certainly don't think people make mental references to religion whenever they're faced with a moral decision. A person who gets his morals out of respect for his fellow man is morally superior to someone who gets his morals out of fear of some boogeyman from the sky.
Whether you want to admit it or not, America is a secular country. While it's not perfect, it's a hell of a lot better than other religious nations. For example, look at the Scandanavian countries. They're amongst the most educated and secular in the world. They also enjoy very high standards of living. They tend to not put too much weight on faith.
You(loco) are just trying to impose faith on others. THAT is where democracy ends. You are the problem, not us secularists.
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Thanks, Hedge! ;D
Social capital? Nice theory, but it does not apply to Venezuela.
Venezuela has plenty of social capital.
Have you ever lived in Venezuela? Venezuela religious? No, not religious.
Define religious for me, Hedge. Saying that you believe in God or saying that you are a Christian does not make you religious, moral or a person of integrity.
99% of the Venezuela population profess to be Roman Catholic, "profess". Most of those 99% do not go to church, do not practice religion in any form, do not believe in helping the needy, do not believe in the greater good of others. Sure, there are good, moral religious people of integrity in every country, but in Venezuela there is corruption from the richest of richest to the poorest of the poorest. There is a belief that it is not wrong to sin or break the law as long as you don't get caught. Yes, there is a minority of good religious people in Venezuela, but generally in Venezuela you are thought from childhood to get to the top even if it takes stepping on other people. You are thought that it is okay to be corrupt as long as you don't get caught.
Don't believe me? Go live there for a few years, not as a tourist, but as a local.
The Venezuelan's are, by your own admission, Catholics.
But there is corruption there, still?
I think you just proved your own theory wrong, no offence.
You may argue that "Venezuelan's aren't really religious, it's a hoax down there" or something like that.
But the fact remains: lots of Catholicism present in Venezuela.
Not much religion in Sweden.
Which country is more democratic?
-Hedge
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If you're looking for morality, don't look to religious people.
The "morality" of the religious founding fathers and generations of their ancestors included genocide of the indigenous people of this land, slavery, lack of rights for women, and other various forms of exploitation. All so that the rich white "religious" men in power could reap the rewards. Very similar to today's ruling class and our foreign policy.
Some of the founders were aristocratic sympathizers. They despised the common man as doltish...not the right people to run a country.
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The Venezuelan's are, by your own admission, Catholics.
But the fact remains: lots of Catholicism present in Venezuela.
-Hedge
No, I just told you that they "profess" to be Catholic, but don't practce. Therefore saying that they are moral or that there is "lots of Catholicism present in Venezuela" is false.
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No, I just told you that they "profess" to be Catholic, but don't practce. Therefore saying that they are moral or that there is "lots of Catholicism present in Venezuela" is false.
Bush practices. God told him to invade Iraq.
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No, I just told you that they "profess" to be Catholic, but don't practce. Therefore saying that they are moral or that there is "lots of Catholicism present in Venezuela" is false.
Sort of like the Roman Inquisition.
Not to get off track, but how can a religion like catholicism offer prayers to statues of saints and mother mary and not be committing idolatry?
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Rep. Ron Paul, MD
The War on Religion
The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders’ political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government’s hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.
The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation’s Christian heritage. Christmas itself may soon be a casualty of that war.
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No, I just told you that they "profess" to be Catholic, but don't practce. Therefore saying that they are moral or that there is "lots of Catholicism present in Venezuela" is false.
Couldn't that be said of any religion and a portion of their alleged followers?
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Why has democracy worked in the US up until recently? Because the founding fathers were moral and religious people who came up with a heck of a constitution and with a heck of a form government that hasn't significantly changed in over 200 years.
They were influenced by Adam Smith, John Locke, David Hume and Greco/Roman civilizations. Get your facts straight. I don't think free market capitalism came out of christianity along with checks and balances.
You just can't seem to comprehend the fact that morality does not come out of religion.
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Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government[/b]. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion,
In practice, the history of religion has shown itself to teach intolerance, followed by various forms of punishment on those who don't agree. I wonder if we can think of any times when religious wars have dominated the times. Hmmm. Fundamentalists of any religion are dangerous people. Just because people should have the right to believe in whichever mass delusion they choose doesn't mean we should see that as valuable. Secularists see the evil that religions produce, and want no part of that "faith."
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Rep. Ron Paul, MD
The War on Religion
The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders’ political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government’s hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.
The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation’s Christian heritage. Christmas itself may soon be a casualty of that war.
Horse hockey.
The First Amendment states:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…"
A 'robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America' could have been envisioned for happening here--it hasn't anywhere else in history--but I'm not a mind reader, I do know many of the founders were Deists and not christians.
The federal government is not hostile to religion. The Supreme Court does not go after Christian groups simply b/c they are christian. It's that kind of phoney baloney argument that doesn't serve christians well.
Article VI, Section 3 of the constitution also states:
"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States, and of the several States, shall be bound by oath or affirmation to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
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no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
And yet the 2nd GOP debate showed the religious affiliation of each candidate, as if it is an important issue. Sad.
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And yet the 2nd GOP debate showed the religious affiliation of each candidate, as if it is an important issue. Sad.
Yeah, I hate it that Bush keeps saying, "My highest duty is protecting the people of the US!"
Bullshit.
His highest duty is to protect the Constitution--See article 6 of the US Constitution.
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His highest duty is to protect the Constitution--See article 6 of the US Constitution.
In practice, his only duty is to protect the assets of his corporate sponsors.
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Whether you want to admit it or not, America is a secular country. While it's not perfect, it's a hell of a lot better than other religious nations. For example, look at the Scandanavian countries. They're amongst the most educated and secular in the world. They also enjoy very high standards of living. They tend to not put too much weight on faith.
Come on Camel. Take a look around you. Religion is everywhere in this country. How many churches are there in your community? How many religious nonprofits are there in this country? Look at the number of people of all faiths in this country and the number of people who believe in God. Our U.S. Senate has a chaplain who prays before each session. Every president we've ever had professes a belief in God. You cannot be elected president without explicitly talking about your faith. Remember this thread I started a little while back? http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=141152.0 Prayer and religion are deeply ingrained in our society.
That said, I do agree there is and should be church-state separation, where the government doesn't control the church, and the church doesn't control the government. But at the end of the day, we are by and large not a secular society.
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Hopefully, this link will explain it all to loco:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/wtwtgod/3518375.stm
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/04/world_what_the_world_thinks_of_god/img/1.jpg)
-Hedge
This proves nothing. I would measure the religious convictions of nation by how much they help widows, orphans and people in need in general, how many churches exist and how many people attend those churches, how much money is given voluntarily to help people around the world, how many people(missionaries) give up their comfortable lives in that nation to go to other nations to offer free medical care, food, clothing and bring a message of hope. In all of these, the US excels. And this is not done by the US government, but by church going American people who do it out of love for Jesus Christ and out of love for other people.
Venezuela has plenty of social capital, but very little religion. The only true religion that ever came to Venezuela is that which was brought by American, Southern Baptist missionaries. Oh, and they brought Baseball too. 8)
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Come on Camel. Take a look around you. Religion is everywhere in this country. How many churches are there in your community? How many religious nonprofits are there in this country? Look at the number of people of all faiths in this country and the number of people who believe in God. Our U.S. Senate has a chaplain who prays before each session. Every president we've ever had professes a belief in God. You cannot be elected president without explicitly talking about your faith. Remember this thread I started a little while back? http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=141152.0 Prayer and religion are deeply ingrained in our society.
That said, I do agree there is and should be church-state separation, where the government doesn't control the church, and the church doesn't control the government. But at the end of the day, we are by and large not a secular society.
Well said.
We are not a secular society.
But our government is secular.
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Come on Camel. Take a look around you. Religion is everywhere in this country. How many churches are there in your community? How many religious nonprofits are there in this country? Look at the number of people of all faiths in this country and the number of people who believe in God. Our U.S. Senate has a chaplain who prays before each session. Every president we've ever had professes a belief in God. You cannot be elected president without explicitly talking about your faith. Remember this thread I started a little while back? http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=141152.0 Prayer and religion are deeply ingrained in our society.
That said, I do agree there is and should be church-state separation, where the government doesn't control the church, and the church doesn't control the government. But at the end of the day, we are by and large not a secular society.
Well said! ;D
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That said, I do agree there is and should be church-state separation, where the government doesn't control the church, and the church doesn't control the government. But at the end of the day, we are by and large not a secular society.
That's the problem.
Religion does not lead to real morals. It leads to a feeling of infallibility because you think you're right just because you believe in a supernatural figure.
Respect for others leads people to develop morals. If you need fairy tales from the Middle East to teach you morals, then you are a lousy person.
I am trying to convice you people that faith = morality is a fallacy. This is a fact.
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Back then morality couldn't operate alone and we still are not capable of governing without a moral compass that is based on religious values. This is as a whole. On an individual level there are many people who don't need religion to tell them wrong from right.
You are right OzmO in a way, people don't need to attend church or read the bible to figure out morality, but the things that have been passed down over the ages as being morally wrong (murder, adultery, stealing etc.) are originally based in religious belief and have just carried through history.
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Well said.
We are not a secular society.
But our government is secular.
Thanks Decker and loco. :)
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That's the problem.
Religion does not lead to real morals. It leads to a feeling of infallibility because you think you're right just because you believe in a supernatural figure.
Respect for others leads people to develop morals. If you need fairy tales from the Middle East to teach you morals, then you are a lousy person.
I am trying to convice you people that faith = morality is a fallacy. This is a fact.
I think you're outnumbered. :)
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I think you're outnumbered. :)
But I am right. :)
Today's generation is more secular than ever before. I'll have more people on my side as my generation grows, matures and starts voting, and as these baby boomers start dying.
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the things that have been passed down over the ages as being morally wrong (murder, adultery, stealing etc.) are originally based in religious belief and have just carried through history.
That's bullshit. Religions throughout history adopted basic moral principles (and often claimed them as their own), but religions are not the origin of those basic ethical rules that most societies have adopted.
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That's bullshit. Religions throughout history adopted basic moral principles (and often claimed them as their own), but religions are not the origin of those basic ethical rules that most societies have adopted.
This is true.
I think most people around the world knew stealing was wrong before the 10 commandments. And the ancient religions of Greece and Egypt had everything to do with devotion to supernatural figures and almost nothing to do with morality.
Of course most religious people would accept morality being drawn out of faith. Most of them are not well versed in history to know and probably regard the bible as a historically accurate account of what went on.
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But I am right. :)
Today's generation is more secular than ever before. I'll have more people on my side as my generation grows, matures and starts voting, and as these baby boomers start dying.
Possibly, but there is an entire generation of kids growing up in church right now. Also, I think many young adults like you tend to go through a phase where religion comes an insignificant part of their lives, but this often changes as they age, meet their mate, settle down, and have kids. Your day is coming. :D
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Total BS. :-\
Explain why you think it's BS.
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This proves nothing. I would measure the religious convictions of nation by how much they help widows, orphans and people in need in general, how many churches exist and how many people attend those churches, how much money is given voluntarily to help people around the world, how many people(missionaries) give up their comfortable lives in that nation to go to other nations to offer free medical care, food, clothing and bring a message of hope. In all of these, the US excels. And this is not done by the US government, but by church going American people who do it out of love for Jesus Christ and out of love for other people.
Venezuela has plenty of social capital, but very little religion.
Sweden, Denmark and Finland are countries which are much more secular than eg USA or Iran.
Still these countries ranks high on the Democracy Index.
India is another example: A country with high religiousity, but so-so democracy.
1. Sweden-9.88, 2. Iceland-9.71, 3. Netherlands-9.66, 4. Norway-9.55, 5. Denmark-9.52, 6. Finland-9.25, 7. Luxembourg-9.10, 8. Australia-9.09, 9. Canada-9.07, 10. Switzerland-9.02, 11. Ireland-9.01 & New Zealand-9.01, 13. Germany-8.82, 14. Austria-8.69, 15. Malta-8.39, 16. Spain-8.34, 17. United States-8.22, 18.Czech Republic-8.17, 19. Portugal-8.16, 20. Belgium-8.15 & Japan-8.15, 22. Greece-8.13 23. UK-8.08, 24. France-8.07, 25. Mauritius-8.04 & Costa Rica-8.04, 27. Slovenia-7.96 & Uruguay-7.96.
Flawed democracies: 29. South Africa-7.91, 30. Chile-7.89, 31. South Korea-7.88, 32. Republic of China (Taiwan)-7.82, 33. Estonia-7.74, 34. Italy-7.73, 35. India-7.68, 36. Botswana-7.60 & Cyprus-7.60, 38. Hungary-7.53, 39. Cape Verde-7.43 & Lithuania-7.43, 41. Slovakia-7.40, 42. Brazil-7.38, 43. Latvia-7.37, 44. Panama-7.35, 45. Jamaica-7.34, 46. Poland-7.30, 47. Israel-7.28, 48. Trinidad and Tobago-7.18, 49. Bulgaria-7.10, 50. Romania-7.06, 51. Croatia-7.04, 52. Ukraine-6.94, 53. Mexico-6.67, 54. Argentina-6.63, 55. Serbia-6.62, 56. Mongolia, 57. Sri Lanka, 58. Montenegro, 59. Namibia & Papua New Guinea, 61. Suriname, 62. Moldova, 63. Lesotho & Philippines, 65. Indonesia & Timor Leste, 67. Colombia, 68. Macedonia, 69. Honduras, 70. El Salvador, 71. Paraguay & Benin, 73. Guyana, 74. Dom Rep, 75. Bangladesh & Peru, 77. Guatemala, 78. Hong Kong, 79. Palestine, 80. Mali, 81. Malaysia & Bolivia 81.
Hybrid regimes: 83. Albania, 84. Singapore, 85. Madagascar & Lebanon, 87. Bosnia and Herzegovina, 88. Turkey, 89. Nicaragua, 90. Thailand, 91. Fiji, 92. Ecuador, 93. Venezuela, 94. Senegal, 95. Ghana, 96. Mozambique, 97. Zambia, 98. Liberia, 99. Tanzania, 100. Uganda, 101.Kenya, 102. Russia, 103. Malawi, 104. Georgia, 105. Cambodia, 106. Ethiopia, 107. Burundi, 108. Gambia, 109. Haiti, 110. Armenia, 111. Kyrgyzstan, 112. Iraq.
Authoritarian regimes: 113. Pakistan & Jordan, 115. Comoros & Morocco & Egypt, 118. Rwanda, 119. Burkina Faso, 120. Kazakhstan, 121. Sierra Leone, 122. guy, 123. Bahrain, 124. Cuba & Nigeria, 126. Nepal, 127. Côte d’Ivoire, 128. Belarus, 129. Azerbaijan, 130. Cameroon, 131. Congo Brazzaville, 132. Algeria, 133. Mauritania, 134. Kuwait, 135. Afghanistan & Tunisia, 137. Yemen, 138. People's Republic of China, 139. Swaziland & Iran, 141. Sudan, 142. Qatar, 143. Oman, 144. Democratic Republic of Congo, 145. Vietnam, 146. Gabon, 147. Bhutan & Zimbabwe, 149. Tajikistan, 150. UAE, 151. Angola, 152. Djibouti, 153. Syria, 154. Eritrea, 155. Laos, 156. Equatorial Guinea, 157. Guinea, 158. Guinea-Bissau, 159. Saudi Arabia, 160. Uzbekistan, 161.Libya, 162. Turkmenistan, 163. Myanmar, 164. Togo, 165. Chad, 166. Central African Republic, 167. North Korea.
The only true religion that ever came to Venezuela is that which was brought by American, Southern Baptist missionaries.
What gives you the right to dismiss the religiousity of the citizens in Venezuela?
-Hedge
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No, I just told you that they "profess" to be Catholic, but don't practce.
Like PEDOFILE catholic priests?
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What gives you the right to dismiss the religiousity of the citizens in Venezuela?
-Hedge
Hedge, tell me who you think would be qualified to dismiss the religiosity of the citizens in Venezuela.
What gives you the right to say which country is religious and which is secular?
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Benjamin Franklin
Constitutional Convention, 1787:
I believe farther that this [new government under the Constitution] is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other.
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I think that everybody here will a agree with me that a theocracy is a very bad thing for any country. The church must NOT rule. That is not the role of the church. Iran is a theocracy and that is bad. The Roman Catholic Church was a theocracy, and still is to a certain extent, and that is why the founding fathers of the US came to America, to flee religious persecution and seek religious freedom. They fled a theocracy and they certainly meant to keep the US from ever becoming a theocracy.
But the founding fathers were very religious and moral people and they certainly did not mean to make the US a secular country either. They knew that the US constitution is for a moral and religious people only. Religion and the church play a very important role in the US and removing them completely from your society will only destroy you from within.
All extremes are bad. Balance and moderation are key. A theocracy in the US is bad, just as bad as completely removing Christianity from your society.
John Adams
Address to the Military, 11 October 1798:
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."
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Hedge, tell me who you think would be qualified to dismiss the religiosity of the citizens in Venezuela.
What gives you the right to say which country is religious and which is secular?
You dismissed the religiousity of the citizens of Venezuela. I didn't.
These people go to church, but it was YOU that claimed they weren't religious. Not I.
Venezuela religious? No, not religious.
If someone claims they aren't member of a church, or aren't Christians, or aren't religious, I tend to believe that.
I even posted links to surveys showing that there is higher religiousity in Nigeria than in USA.
And a Democracy index, which showed higher Democracy in Sweden than in USA eg.
Still you refuse to admit that there is little correlation between religion and democracy.
Eg, North Korea, the most totalitarian country in the world, has no religion at all.
But at the same time, a lot of countries with high religiousity scores very low on the democracy index too.
So there seems to be very low correlation.
You're yet to show one stat that is backing up your claim, and you're not even answering the questions:
What gives you the right to dismiss the religiousity of the citizens in Venezuela?
-Hedge
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Respect for others leads people to develop morals. If you need fairy tales from the Middle East to teach you morals, then you are a lousy person.
Camel Jockey,
Your attitude is not a very good example of your statement.
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You dismissed the religiousity of the citizens of Venezuela. I didn't.
These people go to church, but it was YOU that claimed they weren't religious. Not I.
If someone claims they aren't member of a church, or aren't Christians, or aren't religious, I tend to believe that.
I even posted links to surveys showing that there is higher religiousity in Nigeria than in USA.
And a Democracy index, which showed higher Democracy in Sweden than in USA eg.
Still you refuse to admit that there is little correlation between religion and democracy.
Eg, North Korea, the most totalitarian country in the world, has no religion at all.
But at the same time, a lot of countries with high religiousity scores very low on the democracy index too.
So there seems to be very low correlation.
You're yet to show one stat that is backing up your claim, and you're not even answering the questions:
What gives you the right to dismiss the religiousity of the citizens in Venezuela?
-Hedge
You totally misunderstood my question. My question to you is:
If there is someone out there who is qualified to make a statement about the religiosity of Venezuela, who would it be? A tourist? An exchange student? A journalist? A born citizen of Venezuela who lives there, knows and has studied Venezuelan history, government, society and religion? Who? What do you know about me? What makes you think I don't know about the religiosity of Venezuela?
I respect you and I see from your posts that you have a lot of knowledge about a number of different subjects, but I have also noticed from your posts that you and I disagree on what a religious person is. Claiming to be religious, or claiming to believe in God does not make you religious.
Bottom line is, democracy in Venezuela has not worked because people are too corrupt and need a dictator to keep them on a leash. Dictators are corrupt too, so eventually they get overthrown and replaced by a democracy, which doesn't last long because of corruption and so on and so forth. It's a never ending cycle. If they were a moral and "truly" religious people, this would not happen.
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Camel Jockey,
Your attitude is not a very good example of your statement.
It's a logical one going from A to B. While your statements seem to rest on a fallacy.
I agree that democracy without morality does not work; you're absolutely right. But thinking morality comes out of faith is a fallacy.
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You totally misunderstood my question. My question to you is:
If there is someone out there who is qualified to make a statement about the religiosity of Venezuela, who would it be? A tourist? An exchange student? A journalist? A born citizen of Venezuela who lives there, knows and has studied Venezuelan history, government, society and religion? Who? What do you know about me? What makes you think I don't know about the religiosity of Venezuela?
I respect you and I see from your posts that you have a lot of knowledge about a number of different subjects, but I have also noticed from your posts that you and I disagree on what a religious person is. Claiming to be religious, or claiming to believe in God does not make you religious.
Bottom line is, democracy in Venezuela has not worked because people are too corrupt and need a dictator to keep them on a leash. Dictators are corrupt too, so eventually they get overthrown and replaced by a democracy, which doesn't last long because of corruption and so on and so forth. It's a never ending cycle. If they were a moral and "truly" religious people, this would not happen.
You and I disagree on religion, that is true. We've had a very interesting discussion about what it takes to make one a Christian on the Religion board.
While I respect your knowledge and scholarship, I obviously disagree, just as I did then.
Because this argument seems to land on how religiousity is judged.
And I won't get into that discussion.
I will simply state the fact that Sweden, with less religious people than USA, is higher on the Democracy index.
This indicates that there is no correlation between religiousity and democracy.
-Hedge
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I agree that democracy without morality does not work; you're absolutely right.
Well, at least we agree on something. ;D
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Well, at least we agree on something. ;D
I also agree with this sentiment.
It comes from the social capital IMO.
You really should read Robert Putnam, loco.
Give the guy a try.
I'm sure you will find it interesting, and in line with your religious beliefs.
-Hedge
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I also agree with this sentiment.
It comes from the social capital IMO.
You really should read Robert Putnam, loco.
Give the guy a try.
I'm sure you will find it interesting, and in line with your religious beliefs.
-Hedge
I will read Robert Putnam. Thanks Hedge!
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I will read Robert Putnam. Thanks Hedge!
You're a good man, loco. Your heart is in the right place and I do see your concern. We as a society are pretty phony and could use a revision of our morals.
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You're a good man, loco. Your heart is in the right place and I do see your concern. We as a society are pretty phony and could use a revision of our morals.
Thanks Camel Jockey! You are a good man too!
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You could almost change this thread to society with out morality cannot work.
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You could almost change this thread to society with out morality cannot work.
Almost. ;)
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You're a good man, loco. Your heart is in the right place and I do see your concern. We as a society are pretty phony and could use a revision of our morals.
Agree with everything.
-Hedge
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...They knew that the US constitution is for a moral and religious people only. Religion and the church play a very important role in the US and removing them completely from your society will only destroy you from within.
....
I disagree. I don't think religion can be removed from our existence even if we wanted it removed. Religion deals with intractable mysteries of life by developing myths/explanations for those mysteries.
From that perspective, there will always be religion b/c life always has a mystery at its core.
It is fundamentalist extremism and religiosity that kills the authentic religious experience/impulse.
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You're a good man, loco. Your heart is in the right place and I do see your concern. We as a society are pretty phony and could use a revision of our morals.
AMEN!! ;)