Democracy without morality does not work...

[Decker]

If you're looking for morality, don't look to religious people.
The "morality" of the religious founding fathers and generations of their ancestors included genocide of the indigenous people of this land, slavery, lack of rights for women, and other various forms of exploitation.  All so that the rich white "religious" men in power could reap the rewards.  Very similar to today's ruling class and our foreign policy.  

Some of the founders were aristocratic sympathizers.  They despised the common man as doltish...not the right people to run a country.

[loco]

The Venezuelan's are, by your own admission, Catholics.

But the fact remains: lots of Catholicism present in Venezuela.

-Hedge

No, I just told you that they "profess" to be Catholic, but don't practce.  Therefore saying that they are moral or that there is "lots of Catholicism present in Venezuela" is false.

[Camel Jockey]

No, I just told you that they "profess" to be Catholic, but don't practce.  Therefore saying that they are moral or that there is "lots of Catholicism present in Venezuela" is false.

Bush practices. God told him to invade Iraq.

[Decker]

No, I just told you that they "profess" to be Catholic, but don't practce.  Therefore saying that they are moral or that there is "lots of Catholicism present in Venezuela" is false.

Sort of like the Roman Inquisition.

Not to get off track, but how can a religion like catholicism offer prayers to statues of saints and mother mary and not be committing idolatry?

[loco]

Rep. Ron Paul, MD

The War on Religion
The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders’ political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government’s hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.

The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation’s Christian heritage. Christmas itself may soon be a casualty of that war.

[OzmO]

No, I just told you that they "profess" to be Catholic, but don't practce.  Therefore saying that they are moral or that there is "lots of Catholicism present in Venezuela" is false.

Couldn't that be said of any religion and a portion of their alleged followers?

[Camel Jockey]

Why has democracy worked in the US up until recently?  Because the founding fathers were moral and religious people who came up with a heck of a constitution and with a heck of a form government that hasn't significantly changed in over 200 years.

They were influenced by Adam Smith, John Locke, David Hume and Greco/Roman civilizations. Get your facts straight. I don't think free market capitalism came out of christianity along with checks and balances.

You just can't seem to comprehend the fact that morality does not come out of religion.

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government[/b]. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion,

In practice, the history of religion has shown itself to teach intolerance, followed by various forms of punishment on those who don't agree.  I wonder if we can think of any times when religious wars have dominated the times.  Hmmm.  Fundamentalists of any religion are dangerous people.  Just because people should have the right to believe in whichever mass delusion they choose doesn't mean we should see that as valuable.  Secularists see the evil that religions produce, and want no part of that "faith."

[Decker]

Rep. Ron Paul, MD

The War on Religion
The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders’ political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government’s hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.

The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation’s history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people’s allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation’s Christian heritage. Christmas itself may soon be a casualty of that war.

Horse hockey.

The First Amendment states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…"

A 'robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America' could have been envisioned for happening here--it hasn't anywhere else in history--but I'm not a mind reader,  I do know many of the founders were Deists and not christians.

The federal government is not hostile to religion.  The Supreme Court does not go after Christian groups simply b/c they are christian.  It's that kind of phoney baloney argument that doesn't serve christians well.

Article VI, Section 3 of the constitution also states:

"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States, and of the several States, shall be bound by oath or affirmation to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

And yet the 2nd GOP debate showed the religious affiliation of each candidate, as if it is an important issue.  Sad.

[Decker]

And yet the 2nd GOP debate showed the religious affiliation of each candidate, as if it is an important issue.  Sad.

Yeah, I hate it that Bush keeps saying, "My highest duty is protecting the people of the US!"

Bullshit.

His highest duty is to protect the Constitution--See article 6 of the US Constitution.

[Laughing Sam's Dice]

His highest duty is to protect the Constitution--See article 6 of the US Constitution.

In practice, his only duty is to protect the assets of his corporate sponsors.

[Dos Equis]

Whether you want to admit it or not, America is a secular country. While it's not perfect, it's a hell of a lot better than other religious nations. For example, look at the Scandanavian countries. They're amongst the most educated and secular in the world. They also enjoy very high standards of living. They tend to not put too much weight on faith.

Come on Camel.  Take a look around you.  Religion is everywhere in this country.  How many churches are there in your community?  How many religious nonprofits are there in this country?  Look at the number of people of all faiths in this country and the number of people who believe in God.  Our U.S. Senate has a chaplain who prays before each session.  Every president we've ever had professes a belief in God.  You cannot be elected president without explicitly talking about your faith.  Remember this thread I started a little while back?  http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=141152.0  Prayer and religion are deeply ingrained in our society. 

That said, I do agree there is and should be church-state separation, where the government doesn't control the church, and the church doesn't control the government.  But at the end of the day, we are by and large not a secular society. 

[loco]

Hopefully, this link will explain it all to loco:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/wtwtgod/3518375.stm



-Hedge

This proves nothing.  I would measure the religious convictions of nation by how much they help widows, orphans and people in need in general, how many churches exist and how many people attend those churches, how much money is given voluntarily to help people around the world, how many people(missionaries) give up their comfortable lives in that nation to go to other nations to offer free medical care, food, clothing and bring a message of hope.  In all of these, the US excels.  And this is not done by the US government, but by church going American people who do it out of love for Jesus Christ and out of love for other people.

Venezuela has plenty of social capital, but very little religion.  The only true religion that ever came to Venezuela is that which was brought by American, Southern Baptist missionaries. Oh, and they brought Baseball too.    

[Decker]

Come on Camel.  Take a look around you.  Religion is everywhere in this country.  How many churches are there in your community?  How many religious nonprofits are there in this country?  Look at the number of people of all faiths in this country and the number of people who believe in God.  Our U.S. Senate has a chaplain who prays before each session.  Every president we've ever had professes a belief in God.  You cannot be elected president without explicitly talking about your faith.  Remember this thread I started a little while back?  http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=141152.0  Prayer and religion are deeply ingrained in our society. 

That said, I do agree there is and should be church-state separation, where the government doesn't control the church, and the church doesn't control the government.  But at the end of the day, we are by and large not a secular society. 

Well said.

We are not a secular society.

But our government is secular.

[loco]

Come on Camel.  Take a look around you.  Religion is everywhere in this country.  How many churches are there in your community?  How many religious nonprofits are there in this country?  Look at the number of people of all faiths in this country and the number of people who believe in God.  Our U.S. Senate has a chaplain who prays before each session.  Every president we've ever had professes a belief in God.  You cannot be elected president without explicitly talking about your faith.  Remember this thread I started a little while back?  http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=141152.0  Prayer and religion are deeply ingrained in our society. 

That said, I do agree there is and should be church-state separation, where the government doesn't control the church, and the church doesn't control the government.  But at the end of the day, we are by and large not a secular society. 

Well said!     

[Camel Jockey]

That said, I do agree there is and should be church-state separation, where the government doesn't control the church, and the church doesn't control the government.  But at the end of the day, we are by and large not a secular society. 

That's the problem.

Religion does not lead to real morals. It leads to a feeling of infallibility because you think you're right just because you believe in a supernatural figure.

Respect for others leads people to develop morals. If you need fairy tales from the Middle East to teach you morals, then you are a lousy person.

I am trying to convice you people that faith = morality is a fallacy. This is a fact.

[militarymuscle69]

Back then morality couldn't operate alone and we still are not capable of governing without a moral compass that is based on religious values.  This is as a whole.  On an individual level there are many people who don't need religion to tell them wrong from right.

You are right OzmO in a way, people don't need to attend church or read the bible to figure out morality, but the things that have been passed down over the ages as being morally wrong (murder, adultery, stealing etc.) are originally based in religious belief and have just carried through history.

[Dos Equis]

Well said.

We are not a secular society.

But our government is secular.

Thanks Decker and loco.   

[Dos Equis]

That's the problem.

Religion does not lead to real morals. It leads to a feeling of infallibility because you think you're right just because you believe in a supernatural figure.

Respect for others leads people to develop morals. If you need fairy tales from the Middle East to teach you morals, then you are a lousy person.

I am trying to convice you people that faith = morality is a fallacy. This is a fact.

I think you're outnumbered.   

[Camel Jockey]

I think you're outnumbered.   

But I am right. 

Today's generation is more secular than ever before. I'll have more people on my side as my generation grows, matures and starts voting, and as these baby boomers start dying.

[The Master]

the things that have been passed down over the ages as being morally wrong (murder, adultery, stealing etc.) are originally based in religious belief and have just carried through history.

That's bullshit. Religions throughout history adopted basic moral principles (and often claimed them as their own), but religions are not the origin of those basic ethical rules that most societies have adopted.

[Camel Jockey]

That's bullshit. Religions throughout history adopted basic moral principles (and often claimed them as their own), but religions are not the origin of those basic ethical rules that most societies have adopted.

This is true.

I think most people around the world knew stealing was wrong before the 10 commandments. And the ancient religions of Greece and Egypt had everything to do with devotion to supernatural figures and almost nothing to do with morality.

Of course most religious people would accept morality being drawn out of faith. Most of them are not well versed in history to know and probably regard the bible as a historically accurate account of what went on.

[Dos Equis]

But I am right. 

Today's generation is more secular than ever before. I'll have more people on my side as my generation grows, matures and starts voting, and as these baby boomers start dying.

Possibly, but there is an entire generation of kids growing up in church right now.  Also, I think many young adults like you tend to go through a phase where religion comes an insignificant part of their lives, but this often changes as they age, meet their mate, settle down, and have kids.  Your day is coming.      

[w8tlftr]

Total BS. 

Explain why you think it's BS.