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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Laughing Sam's Dice on May 29, 2007, 03:29:31 PM

Title: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Laughing Sam's Dice on May 29, 2007, 03:29:31 PM
All of our energy is nuclear powered in a plant that is run by workers making $5.45/hour with no healthcare benefits.  And there is no government agency to oversee safety regulations because government is bad and the free market can better regulate itself. 
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: w8tlftr on May 29, 2007, 03:37:10 PM
All of our energy is nuclear powered in a plant that is run by workers making $5.45/hour with no healthcare benefits.  And there is no government agency to oversee safety regulations because government is bad and the free market can better regulate itself. 

Riiiiiight.

Because the free market would determine that qualified engineers make $5.45 an hour with no benefits and Libertarians believe in absolutely zero government. Take another hit, Acid Boy.

Yay socialism.  ::)

Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Camel Jockey on May 29, 2007, 04:01:08 PM
All of our energy is nuclear powered in a plant that is run by workers making $5.45/hour with no healthcare benefits.  And there is no government agency to oversee safety regulations because government is bad and the free market can better regulate itself. 

Why is it a company's responsibility to offer anything other then wages? Explain.

American auto-makers cannot compete with Japan and Korea because they're just not as efficient. Ford's and GM's workers are in unions that yield too much power and command way too many benefits. This adds to expenses and makes for a crappy car. And these employees cannot be fired for being lazy, late or inefficient because the union protects them.

During the industrial revolution, the English parliment outlawed guilds that had monopolies on certain products. We should do the same by restricting the power of labor unions. They inhibit merit, hard work and are canning our auto companies. You'll never see any stupid hippy whining about these unions, but publicly held companies are "evil" for making a profit.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Laughing Sam's Dice on May 29, 2007, 04:07:18 PM
We should do the same by restricting the power of labor unions. They inhibit merit, hard work and are canning our auto companies. You'll never see any stupid hippy whining about these unions, but publicly held companies are "evil" for making a profit.

Unions benefit workers.  Anti-union, libertarian policies benefit owners.  Cheap labor creates more profit for owners, that's why owners would rather pay as little as possible for U.S. workers or "outsource" labor to foreign countries.  "Merit" has nothing to do with fair wages in a libertarian system.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Camel Jockey on May 29, 2007, 04:13:00 PM
Unions benefit workers.  Anti-union, libertarian policies benefit owners.  Cheap labor creates more profit for owners, that's why owners would rather pay as little as possible for U.S. workers or "outsource" labor to foreign countries.  "Merit" has nothing to do with fair wages in a libertarian system.

If you are unhappy about your salary, then get an education in a field that has more to offer.

Fair wages are a product of the market..  but of course there should be a minimum wage determined by economists to make sure employers don't take advantage of laborers.

And I see nothing wrong with outsourcing. Get into another field if you lost your job to Raji Jugdish in India.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Laughing Sam's Dice on May 29, 2007, 04:21:02 PM
but of course there should be a minimum wage determined by economists to make sure employers don't take advantage of laborers.

And I see nothing wrong with outsourcing.

So are you for fair wages, or are you for employers avoiding paying fair wages by sending jobs to other countries where they can pay lower wages and make more profit for themselves?  Which is it?
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Camel Jockey on May 29, 2007, 04:25:10 PM
So are you for fair wages, or are you for employers avoiding paying fair wages by sending jobs to other countries where they can pay lower wages and make more profit for themselves?  Which is it?

You can't outsource everything.. Minimum wage should be in place to protect the resteraunt and hospitality sector workers.

But if a company outsources call center jobs for more profit to shareholders, then more power to them.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Laughing Sam's Dice on May 29, 2007, 04:27:34 PM
You can't outsource everything.. Minimum wage should be in place to protect the resteraunt and hospitality sector workers.

But if a company outsources call center jobs for more profit to shareholders, then more power to them.

So you're saying you don't give a shit about U.S. workers who would do those jobs.  But you like that corporate shareholders make more profit.  This is a good example of how libertarianism benefits the rich and screws anyone who can be "outsourced."
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: militarymuscle69 on May 29, 2007, 04:29:47 PM
Unions benefit workers.  Anti-union, libertarian policies benefit owners.  Cheap labor creates more profit for owners, that's why owners would rather pay as little as possible for U.S. workers or "outsource" labor to foreign countries.  "Merit" has nothing to do with fair wages in a libertarian system.

Tell that to General Motors (union) who has now taken a back seat to toyota (non union)
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Camel Jockey on May 29, 2007, 04:32:16 PM
So you're saying you don't give a shit about U.S. workers who would do those jobs.  But you like that corporate shareholders make more profit.  This is a good example of how libertarianism benefits the rich and screws anyone who can be "outsourced."

More profit = economic growth, which means more jobs for Americans.

Funny how you're concerned about US workers, yet support illegals coming here whenever they want. Direct contradiction if you ask me.

Quote
Tell that to General Motors (union) who has now taken a back seat to toyota (non union)

Thanks, mm69. Funny how this clown is whining about US laborers, but doesn't care about the various companies that employ them.  :-\
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Laughing Sam's Dice on May 29, 2007, 04:33:04 PM
Tell that to General Motors (union) who has now taken a back seat to toyota (non union)

Well then I suppose GM auto workers (those who still have jobs in this country) should vote to disband the union in order to make better wages.  ::)
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Camel Jockey on May 29, 2007, 04:34:47 PM
Get rid of all unions! They're like guilds in disguise.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Laughing Sam's Dice on May 29, 2007, 04:36:46 PM
More profit = economic growth, which means more jobs for Americans.

More profit for corporations does not at all mean more decent paying jobs for Americans.

Funny how you're concerned about US workers, yet support illegals coming here whenever they want. Direct contradiction if you ask me.

I think you're confusing me with someone else.  I don't support completely open borders with no immigration policy.  I don't think anyone does.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Laughing Sam's Dice on May 29, 2007, 04:42:23 PM
Get rid of all unions! They're like guilds in disguise.

WalMart is also anti-union.  They don't want to pay their U.S. workers fair wages.  Takes away from corporate profit.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: headhuntersix on May 29, 2007, 04:46:53 PM
Your not working at wal-mart to get rich...and unfortunatley u should not be relying on it to support more then one person. Corporations are not social experiments..they don't exist to employ..they exist to make money.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Laughing Sam's Dice on May 29, 2007, 04:54:35 PM
Your not working at wal-mart to get rich...and unfortunatley u should not be relying on it to support more then one person. Corporations are not social experiments..they don't exist to employ..they exist to make money.

A person works at WalMart because they can't get a better job.  Regardless, the social-financial issue involves "who should profit from the work required in creating and selling the goods?"  Libertarians are fine with as much profit as possible going to the owners- to hell with the workers.  A socialist, humanistic economic view believes that the workers should share fairly in the profit.  Such is the point of having a minimum wage that provides a "living wage" for workers. 

Why defend unlimited profits for fat cats making money off others' labor?  Why don't the non-rich understand this?  Good brainwashing by corporate media. 
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: headhuntersix on May 29, 2007, 05:02:05 PM
Why not work harder in school..get a better job..work two or three jobs..do more...both sides of my family were immigrants. They worked hard.  Socialist economies fail time and time again...short of that they remain stail and unproductive.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Laughing Sam's Dice on May 29, 2007, 05:07:29 PM
Why not work harder in school..get a better job..work two or three jobs..do more...both sides of my family were immigrants. They worked hard.  Socialist economies fail time and time again...short of that they remain stail and unproductive.

You're advocating that people work 2 or 3 jobs to try to get ahead, while the corporate owners make big easy profits off their labor.  Why not pay living wages so that people can work one job and do things like raise a family? 
Working harder doesn't mean that people get ahead economically.  As the U.S. proceeds with the deregulation of the Reagan Administration, and corporate friendly policies like NAFTA and GATT work in conjunction with outsourcing jobs, it is our U.S. system that is creating more disparity between rich and poor.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: OzmO on May 29, 2007, 05:10:22 PM
You're advocating that people work 2 or 3 jobs to try to get ahead, while the corporate owners make big easy profits off their labor.  Why not pay living wages so that people can work one job and do things like raise a family? 
Working harder doesn't mean that people get ahead economically.  As the U.S. proceeds with the deregulation of the Reagan Administration, and corporate friendly policies like NAFTA and GATT work in conjunction with outsourcing jobs, it is our U.S. system that is creating more disparity between rich and poor.

I agree with most of this. 

I see the middle class shrinking in some ways.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: headhuntersix on May 29, 2007, 05:12:22 PM
Dude..I get taxed to death as it is.....I'm not paying for them. I have had my share of crappy jobs. I aspire to be a corporate fat cat..or least see the profits through investment from it. The system..which u area product of..works. Its as fair as it can be without fucking the rest of us. I'm not paying for people who don't have the drive or ability to do better. We do enough. I'm all for helping out with education..grants and loans etc..because in theory we will see a return on investment.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: OzmO on May 29, 2007, 05:15:58 PM
Dude..I get taxed to death as it is.....I'm not paying for them. I have had my share of crappy jobs. I aspire to be a corporate fat cat..or least see the profits through investment from it. The system..which u area product of..works. Its as fair as it can be without fucking the rest of us. I'm not paying for people who don't have the drive or ability to do better. We do enough. I'm all for helping out with education..grants and loans etc..because in theory we will see a return on investment.

I'm not for raising taxes or increasing aid programs. 

I'm for increasing the middle class, and right now with the job market, there is not a whole lot out there for average people without a college degree.  there was once a time a person could learn skills in a factory and support a family, own a home etc....  very hard to do now.

Jobs are easy to get.  VERY.  they just don't pay crap.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: headhuntersix on May 29, 2007, 05:17:58 PM
Yeah but have u noticied how jobs that tech schools teach..pay very well..u don't need a college degree to be a master plumber/electrician/carpenter....these jobs pay very well for alot of people.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: OzmO on May 29, 2007, 05:21:49 PM
Yeah but have u noticied how jobs that tech schools teach..pay very well..u don't need a college degree to be a master plumber/electrician/carpenter....these jobs pay very well for alot of people.

I agree with you there.   In 2002 i got a degree on computer science.  I never used it.  I made my career in another field.  I am from the school that says:  "if it's to be it's up to me"  But  i don't think everyone can do that.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: egj13 on May 29, 2007, 05:24:28 PM
WalMart is also anti-union.  They don't want to pay their U.S. workers fair wages.  Takes away from corporate profit.

I beg to differ, Wal Mart is extremely fair when it comes to wages. Here in MT, the starting wage is $8.45 at wal-mart. That truly isn't bad for the work that is done there and one of the nicer paying jobs with the exception of working on Malmstrom. It is simple math, if you pay the cashiers there more money then the prices will go up and they won't be able to afford to shop there. Go to Wal-Mart and ask how many of those people just hate working there, it doesn't happen.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: headhuntersix on May 29, 2007, 05:28:34 PM
Our "poor" are a hell of alot better then anywhere else. How many here have traveled to the 3rd world..and vacation resorts don't count.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: The Enigma on May 29, 2007, 05:34:10 PM
I beg to differ, Wal Mart is extremely fair when it comes to wages. Here in MT, the starting wage is $8.45 at wal-mart. That truly isn't bad for the work that is done there and one of the nicer paying jobs 

Ok, let's do the math........gasoline 4.00 per gallon.

Walmart "associate" 8.45 per hour w/o benefits.  :o

Why the Fvck did I attend college ?

Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: egj13 on May 29, 2007, 05:38:59 PM
Ok, let's do the math........gasoline 4.00 per gallon.

Walmart "associate" 8.45 per hour w/o benefits.  :o

Why the Fvck did I attend college ?



Hey I'm not saying I'm going to quit the AF and work at walmart, but these people are stocking shelves and scanning cans/bottles. How much is that really worth? Take a drive through beautiful Great Falls and tell me if these people aren't happy to make $8.45 as opposed to 6 comething at McDs
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: militarymuscle69 on May 30, 2007, 05:17:53 AM
Well then I suppose GM auto workers (those who still have jobs in this country) should vote to disband the union in order to make better wages.  ::)

no fool, they should not disband, but they should stop being greedy so that general motors can lower the price of cars and remain competitive with companies like Toyota.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Decker on May 30, 2007, 06:46:24 AM
If you are unhappy about your salary, then get an education in a field that has more to offer.

Fair wages are a product of the market..  but of course there should be a minimum wage determined by economists to make sure employers don't take advantage of laborers.

And I see nothing wrong with outsourcing. Get into another field if you lost your job to Raji Jugdish in India.
You are making a case for what's known as 'income mobility' where people better their earning power through education and training and move up the pay scale.

Unfortunately, as Judge Smails points out in CaddyShack, "the world needs ditch diggers too." 

Many people do not have the capability to rise above ditch digger status.

If the world needs ditch diggers and many of those people are necessarily limited to that position b/c of limited ability, why should they be relegated to second class status with no benefits or such?

It is in the best interests of the US to have a healthy (insured) and reasonably compensated workforce.  The alternative, economic strife, affects crime and death rates for the underclass.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Decker on May 30, 2007, 07:24:15 AM
no fool, they should not disband, but they should stop being greedy so that general motors can lower the price of cars and remain competitive with companies like Toyota.
It is a complex problem.  Oursourcing, relocation, trade agreements and the general effects of globalization have affected all our markets.  Wages have been depressed since the early 1970s while executive compensation has grown exponentially.

Look at this and think about who is greedy:

GM Chairman earns $9.57 million in 2006http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2007-04-27-1306366335_x.htm

General Motors Trims 25,000 From Payroll: Is It Enough?http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2005/06/08/general-motors-trims-from-payroll-is-it-enough


Here is how GM characterizes it's problem:
At the annual shareholders’ meeting last May, General Motors’ Chairman Roger B. Smith said that  not even great technology and the magic of robots can overcome the competitive disadvantage of high American labor costs: at GM hourly workers earn $8.00 an hour more than their Japanese counterparts. http://www.kelsoinstitute.org/gm.html

The average auto executive got a 22% pay raise last year resulting in an average annual income of about $4.2 million per auto executive.http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070506/BUSINESS01/705060621/1014/BUSINESS

Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Camel Jockey on May 30, 2007, 08:41:13 AM
Quote
Unfortunately, as Judge Smails points out in CaddyShack, "the world needs ditch diggers too." 

Many people do not have the capability to rise above ditch digger status.

If the world needs ditch diggers and many of those people are necessarily limited to that position b/c of limited ability, why should they be relegated to second class status with no benefits or such?

It is in the best interests of the US to have a healthy (insured) and reasonably compensated workforce.  The alternative, economic strife, affects crime and death rates for the underclass.

Limited ability may be the result of lower IQ or laziness.

Our country has grants and financial aid for those wishing to recieve an education. It's one thing that we should fund more, as opposed to nonsense like welfare. There is an opportunity to pull yourself out of the gutter in this country.

The US workforce is well compensated... They get what they're worth. And I disagree about the affect on the underclass.

I diasgree with you about the affect on the underclass.. Many immigrants work themselves up and out of the gutter, working jobs that have no benefits what so ever. You don't hear complaints from a cabby who's driving 50-60 hours a week for a lousy $1,000 a week. But it's always the fucking labor union workers who are complaining despite having pensions, sick days and what not.

The only underclass demographic it seems to affect are black and hispanics. They have the highest crime rates and most social problems. Their fellow underclassmen, such as asian immigrants don't seem to be having the same problems, despite facing more adversity. Thus we can determine it's a cultural problem within their groups, and not results of economic inequity.
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: w8tlftr on May 30, 2007, 07:07:43 PM
A person works at WalMart because they can't get a better job.  Regardless, the social-financial issue involves "who should profit from the work required in creating and selling the goods?"  Libertarians are fine with as much profit as possible going to the owners- to hell with the workers.  A socialist, humanistic economic view believes that the workers should share fairly in the profit.  Such is the point of having a minimum wage that provides a "living wage" for workers. 

Why defend unlimited profits for fat cats making money off others' labor?  Why don't the non-rich understand this?  Good brainwashing by corporate media. 

Hey how's the Barista from Starbucks you bought working, Mr. Anti-Corporate?

Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Laughing Sam's Dice on May 31, 2007, 09:25:59 AM
Hey how's the Barista from Starbucks you bought working, Mr. Anti-Corporate?

I buy gasoline, too.   :-[
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Camel Jockey on May 31, 2007, 09:32:54 AM
I buy gasoline, too.   :-[

Move to Cali so you can take up residents inside a giant redwood.  ;D
Title: Re: A utopian Libertarian future
Post by: Laughing Sam's Dice on May 31, 2007, 09:36:36 AM
I'm in Cali, encroaching into a canyon.  Deer walk around the neighborhood.  Bad human.  :(