Author Topic: A utopian Libertarian future  (Read 3839 times)

Laughing Sam's Dice

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A utopian Libertarian future
« on: May 29, 2007, 03:29:31 PM »
All of our energy is nuclear powered in a plant that is run by workers making $5.45/hour with no healthcare benefits.  And there is no government agency to oversee safety regulations because government is bad and the free market can better regulate itself. 
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w8tlftr

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2007, 03:37:10 PM »
All of our energy is nuclear powered in a plant that is run by workers making $5.45/hour with no healthcare benefits.  And there is no government agency to oversee safety regulations because government is bad and the free market can better regulate itself. 

Riiiiiight.

Because the free market would determine that qualified engineers make $5.45 an hour with no benefits and Libertarians believe in absolutely zero government. Take another hit, Acid Boy.

Yay socialism.  ::)


Camel Jockey

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2007, 04:01:08 PM »
All of our energy is nuclear powered in a plant that is run by workers making $5.45/hour with no healthcare benefits.  And there is no government agency to oversee safety regulations because government is bad and the free market can better regulate itself. 

Why is it a company's responsibility to offer anything other then wages? Explain.

American auto-makers cannot compete with Japan and Korea because they're just not as efficient. Ford's and GM's workers are in unions that yield too much power and command way too many benefits. This adds to expenses and makes for a crappy car. And these employees cannot be fired for being lazy, late or inefficient because the union protects them.

During the industrial revolution, the English parliment outlawed guilds that had monopolies on certain products. We should do the same by restricting the power of labor unions. They inhibit merit, hard work and are canning our auto companies. You'll never see any stupid hippy whining about these unions, but publicly held companies are "evil" for making a profit.

Laughing Sam's Dice

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2007, 04:07:18 PM »
We should do the same by restricting the power of labor unions. They inhibit merit, hard work and are canning our auto companies. You'll never see any stupid hippy whining about these unions, but publicly held companies are "evil" for making a profit.

Unions benefit workers.  Anti-union, libertarian policies benefit owners.  Cheap labor creates more profit for owners, that's why owners would rather pay as little as possible for U.S. workers or "outsource" labor to foreign countries.  "Merit" has nothing to do with fair wages in a libertarian system.
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Camel Jockey

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2007, 04:13:00 PM »
Unions benefit workers.  Anti-union, libertarian policies benefit owners.  Cheap labor creates more profit for owners, that's why owners would rather pay as little as possible for U.S. workers or "outsource" labor to foreign countries.  "Merit" has nothing to do with fair wages in a libertarian system.

If you are unhappy about your salary, then get an education in a field that has more to offer.

Fair wages are a product of the market..  but of course there should be a minimum wage determined by economists to make sure employers don't take advantage of laborers.

And I see nothing wrong with outsourcing. Get into another field if you lost your job to Raji Jugdish in India.

Laughing Sam's Dice

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2007, 04:21:02 PM »
but of course there should be a minimum wage determined by economists to make sure employers don't take advantage of laborers.

And I see nothing wrong with outsourcing.

So are you for fair wages, or are you for employers avoiding paying fair wages by sending jobs to other countries where they can pay lower wages and make more profit for themselves?  Which is it?
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Camel Jockey

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2007, 04:25:10 PM »
So are you for fair wages, or are you for employers avoiding paying fair wages by sending jobs to other countries where they can pay lower wages and make more profit for themselves?  Which is it?

You can't outsource everything.. Minimum wage should be in place to protect the resteraunt and hospitality sector workers.

But if a company outsources call center jobs for more profit to shareholders, then more power to them.

Laughing Sam's Dice

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2007, 04:27:34 PM »
You can't outsource everything.. Minimum wage should be in place to protect the resteraunt and hospitality sector workers.

But if a company outsources call center jobs for more profit to shareholders, then more power to them.

So you're saying you don't give a shit about U.S. workers who would do those jobs.  But you like that corporate shareholders make more profit.  This is a good example of how libertarianism benefits the rich and screws anyone who can be "outsourced."
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militarymuscle69

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2007, 04:29:47 PM »
Unions benefit workers.  Anti-union, libertarian policies benefit owners.  Cheap labor creates more profit for owners, that's why owners would rather pay as little as possible for U.S. workers or "outsource" labor to foreign countries.  "Merit" has nothing to do with fair wages in a libertarian system.

Tell that to General Motors (union) who has now taken a back seat to toyota (non union)
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Camel Jockey

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2007, 04:32:16 PM »
So you're saying you don't give a shit about U.S. workers who would do those jobs.  But you like that corporate shareholders make more profit.  This is a good example of how libertarianism benefits the rich and screws anyone who can be "outsourced."

More profit = economic growth, which means more jobs for Americans.

Funny how you're concerned about US workers, yet support illegals coming here whenever they want. Direct contradiction if you ask me.

Quote
Tell that to General Motors (union) who has now taken a back seat to toyota (non union)

Thanks, mm69. Funny how this clown is whining about US laborers, but doesn't care about the various companies that employ them.  :-\

Laughing Sam's Dice

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2007, 04:33:04 PM »
Tell that to General Motors (union) who has now taken a back seat to toyota (non union)

Well then I suppose GM auto workers (those who still have jobs in this country) should vote to disband the union in order to make better wages.  ::)
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Camel Jockey

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2007, 04:34:47 PM »
Get rid of all unions! They're like guilds in disguise.

Laughing Sam's Dice

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2007, 04:36:46 PM »
More profit = economic growth, which means more jobs for Americans.

More profit for corporations does not at all mean more decent paying jobs for Americans.

Funny how you're concerned about US workers, yet support illegals coming here whenever they want. Direct contradiction if you ask me.

I think you're confusing me with someone else.  I don't support completely open borders with no immigration policy.  I don't think anyone does.
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Laughing Sam's Dice

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2007, 04:42:23 PM »
Get rid of all unions! They're like guilds in disguise.

WalMart is also anti-union.  They don't want to pay their U.S. workers fair wages.  Takes away from corporate profit.
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headhuntersix

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2007, 04:46:53 PM »
Your not working at wal-mart to get rich...and unfortunatley u should not be relying on it to support more then one person. Corporations are not social experiments..they don't exist to employ..they exist to make money.
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Laughing Sam's Dice

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2007, 04:54:35 PM »
Your not working at wal-mart to get rich...and unfortunatley u should not be relying on it to support more then one person. Corporations are not social experiments..they don't exist to employ..they exist to make money.

A person works at WalMart because they can't get a better job.  Regardless, the social-financial issue involves "who should profit from the work required in creating and selling the goods?"  Libertarians are fine with as much profit as possible going to the owners- to hell with the workers.  A socialist, humanistic economic view believes that the workers should share fairly in the profit.  Such is the point of having a minimum wage that provides a "living wage" for workers. 

Why defend unlimited profits for fat cats making money off others' labor?  Why don't the non-rich understand this?  Good brainwashing by corporate media. 
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headhuntersix

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2007, 05:02:05 PM »
Why not work harder in school..get a better job..work two or three jobs..do more...both sides of my family were immigrants. They worked hard.  Socialist economies fail time and time again...short of that they remain stail and unproductive.
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Laughing Sam's Dice

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2007, 05:07:29 PM »
Why not work harder in school..get a better job..work two or three jobs..do more...both sides of my family were immigrants. They worked hard.  Socialist economies fail time and time again...short of that they remain stail and unproductive.

You're advocating that people work 2 or 3 jobs to try to get ahead, while the corporate owners make big easy profits off their labor.  Why not pay living wages so that people can work one job and do things like raise a family? 
Working harder doesn't mean that people get ahead economically.  As the U.S. proceeds with the deregulation of the Reagan Administration, and corporate friendly policies like NAFTA and GATT work in conjunction with outsourcing jobs, it is our U.S. system that is creating more disparity between rich and poor.
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OzmO

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2007, 05:10:22 PM »
You're advocating that people work 2 or 3 jobs to try to get ahead, while the corporate owners make big easy profits off their labor.  Why not pay living wages so that people can work one job and do things like raise a family? 
Working harder doesn't mean that people get ahead economically.  As the U.S. proceeds with the deregulation of the Reagan Administration, and corporate friendly policies like NAFTA and GATT work in conjunction with outsourcing jobs, it is our U.S. system that is creating more disparity between rich and poor.

I agree with most of this. 

I see the middle class shrinking in some ways.

headhuntersix

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2007, 05:12:22 PM »
Dude..I get taxed to death as it is.....I'm not paying for them. I have had my share of crappy jobs. I aspire to be a corporate fat cat..or least see the profits through investment from it. The system..which u area product of..works. Its as fair as it can be without fucking the rest of us. I'm not paying for people who don't have the drive or ability to do better. We do enough. I'm all for helping out with education..grants and loans etc..because in theory we will see a return on investment.
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OzmO

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2007, 05:15:58 PM »
Dude..I get taxed to death as it is.....I'm not paying for them. I have had my share of crappy jobs. I aspire to be a corporate fat cat..or least see the profits through investment from it. The system..which u area product of..works. Its as fair as it can be without fucking the rest of us. I'm not paying for people who don't have the drive or ability to do better. We do enough. I'm all for helping out with education..grants and loans etc..because in theory we will see a return on investment.

I'm not for raising taxes or increasing aid programs. 

I'm for increasing the middle class, and right now with the job market, there is not a whole lot out there for average people without a college degree.  there was once a time a person could learn skills in a factory and support a family, own a home etc....  very hard to do now.

Jobs are easy to get.  VERY.  they just don't pay crap.

headhuntersix

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2007, 05:17:58 PM »
Yeah but have u noticied how jobs that tech schools teach..pay very well..u don't need a college degree to be a master plumber/electrician/carpenter....these jobs pay very well for alot of people.
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OzmO

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2007, 05:21:49 PM »
Yeah but have u noticied how jobs that tech schools teach..pay very well..u don't need a college degree to be a master plumber/electrician/carpenter....these jobs pay very well for alot of people.

I agree with you there.   In 2002 i got a degree on computer science.  I never used it.  I made my career in another field.  I am from the school that says:  "if it's to be it's up to me"  But  i don't think everyone can do that.

egj13

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2007, 05:24:28 PM »
WalMart is also anti-union.  They don't want to pay their U.S. workers fair wages.  Takes away from corporate profit.

I beg to differ, Wal Mart is extremely fair when it comes to wages. Here in MT, the starting wage is $8.45 at wal-mart. That truly isn't bad for the work that is done there and one of the nicer paying jobs with the exception of working on Malmstrom. It is simple math, if you pay the cashiers there more money then the prices will go up and they won't be able to afford to shop there. Go to Wal-Mart and ask how many of those people just hate working there, it doesn't happen.

headhuntersix

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Re: A utopian Libertarian future
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2007, 05:28:34 PM »
Our "poor" are a hell of alot better then anywhere else. How many here have traveled to the 3rd world..and vacation resorts don't count.
L