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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Butterbean on August 05, 2007, 09:23:37 AM
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Which is closest to your attitude toward the bible?
(by Charles C. Ryrie)
Rationalism: a. Extreme form denies the possibility of any supernatural revelation. b. Moderate form admits possibility of divine revelation, but human mind is final judge of revelation.
Romanism: Bible is the product of the church; therefore, the Bible is not the sole or final authority.
Mysticism: Experience is authoritative along w/the Bible.
Neo-orthodoxy: The Bible is a fallible witness to the revelation of God in the Word, Christ.
Cults: The Bible and the writings of the particular cult's leader are equally authoritative.
Orthodoxy: The Bible is the ground of authority.
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Rationalism a.
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Orthodoxy
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Rationalism B, If i understand it right. and maybe a combination of roman-ism.
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Rationalism B, If i understand it right.
Ditto.
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Orthodoxy
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I having problems reading your choice C-500........could you make it bigger please? ;D ;) :)
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I having problems reading your choice C-500........could you make it bigger please? ;D ;) :)
O R T H O D O X Y
:P :D ;D
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I see... Colossus, how many harlots have you stoned lately?
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I see... Colossus, how many harlots have you stoned lately?
::)
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::)
That's ok, bro. Don't despair. With enough practice, you too can become a jealous, genocidal, murderous, ill-tempered bully like Yahweh :)
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That's ok, bro. Don't despair. With enough practice, you too can become a jealous, genocidal, murderous, ill-tempered bully like Yahweh :)
::) ::)
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I having problems reading your choice C-500........could you make it bigger please? ;D ;) :)
lol
O R T H O D O X Y
:P :D ;D
lol
I see... Colossus, how many harlots have you stoned lately?
lol
::)
lol
That's ok, bro. Don't despair. With enough practice, you too can become a jealous, genocidal, murderous, ill-tempered bully like Yahweh :)
:-\
::) ::)
lol
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That's ok, bro. Don't despair. With enough practice, you too can become a jealous, genocidal, murderous, ill-tempered bully like Yahweh :)
You forgot "insecure" and "vain"
;) ;D :)
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STella, ask the poor Midianites and the other people who had the misfortune to be living in the so-called promised land, if they felt "lol" too... not to mention all those guys whose foreskins were chopped off by the Hebrews on Yahweh's order. Were they saying "lol" too?
What about the little boy Isaac? I am sure he laughed out loud heartily at the prank Yahweh played on his senile father...
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STella, ask the poor Midianites and the other people who had the misfortune to be living in the so-called promised land, if they felt "lol" too... not to mention all those guys whose foreskins were chopped off by the Hebrews on Yahweh's order. Were they saying "lol" too?
What about the little boy Isaac? I am sure he laughed out loud heartily at the prank Yahweh played on his senile father...
Sorry I laughed because I thought you were joking..then I saw you were not :-\
columbusdude82, do you believe that these bible stories actually occured?
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I was half-joking :) I don't believe that the stories with magic in them (e.g., the sun stopping for Joshua) occurred. The others may have occurred, probably didn't, were vastly exaggerated, or were not recorded correctly after being passed down the generations through word of mouth.
Those who said "orthodoxy" probably believe them, as do those Christian denominations who believe that the Bible is the "infallible word of God." (e.g., Southern Baptists)
Regardless of whether they are fact or fable, why should I look for moral guidance to a book with this many deeply morally repugnant stories?
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I was half-joking :) I don't believe that the stories with magic in them (e.g., the sun stopping for Joshua) occurred. The others may have occurred, probably didn't, were vastly exaggerated, or were not recorded correctly after being passed down the generations through word of mouth.
Those who said "orthodoxy" probably believe them, as do those Christian denominations who believe that the Bible is the "infallible word of God." (e.g., Southern Baptists)
Regardless of whether they are fact or fable, why should I look for moral guidance to a book with this many deeply morally repugnant stories?
The fool in his heart has said there is no God.
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The fool in his heart has said there is no God.
How imaginative and convenient... quoting the psalms in order not to have to address the points I made...
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How imaginative and convenient... quoting the psalms in order not to have to address the points I made...
columbusdude, how did you know that was in the Psalms? Do you have a spiritual background and if so would you share what it is (if you are comfortable).
Regardless of whether they are fact or fable, why should I look for moral guidance to a book with this many deeply morally repugnant stories?
Do you have any people that you "look up to?"
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the poor Midianites
The Midianites were oppressive and hostile to the Israelites. They were often raiding Israel with the use of swift camels.
all those guys whose foreskins were chopped off by the Hebrews on Yahweh's order. Were they saying "lol" too?
Yeah, the Philistines, an evil and oppressive people. And their foreskins were chopped off by David's army, not on order of God, but on order of King Saul, a king God rejected.
What about the little boy Isaac? I am sure he laughed out loud heartily at the prank Yahweh played on his senile father...
The "prank" was played by Isaac's mother. Isaac's older brother is the one who sold his birth right for a bowl of beans.
God did not command Israel to destroy every nation in the promised land. God commanded Israel to destroy only certain nations that were evil, involved in human sacrifice, or were oppressive toward Israel upon Israel's arrival or they were oppressive toward surrounding nations.
Funny how people here are bothered that God destroyed these evil and oppressive nations. Yet, had God not destroyed those nations, people then would be complaining that God is not just for allowing these nations to continue to exist.
Deuteronomy 9:4
After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, "The LORD has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness." No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is going to drive them out before you.
Deuteronomy 12:31
You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
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Really good post loco. Thanks!
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How imaginative and convenient... quoting the psalms in order not to have to address the points I made...
Man, I hear alot of hurt & anger in your posts. I know you've said that you're not angry, but it's hard to see where you're not.
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I see... Colossus, how many harlots have you stoned lately?
Haven't thrown any stones, but I'm steady duckin' the ones you're chuckin'. :P ;)
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Really good post loco. Thanks!
You are welcome, STella! ;D
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columbusdude, how did you know that was in the Psalms? Do you have a spiritual background and if so would you share what it is (if you are comfortable).
Do you have any people that you "look up to?"
It's the opening line from Psalm 14, I think. You don't need to have a spiritual background to know that. The Bible is a very cool book to read sometimes, and a minimum knowledge of the Bible is essential to understanding literature and art and culure. You don't need to have a "spiritual background" for that.
To answer your question though, yes I was born, raised, and baptized Catholic, and went to Catholic school, and was steeped in Christianity. When I came to Ohio State, I also experimented with "fundamentalist" protestant Christianity.
To answer your other question, no, not really. :) Returning to the question I asked, how much "moral guidance" can one draw from the tales and fables of ancient tribal squabbles in the Near East? So much of the Bible is just plain bizarre. So many moral dilemmas relevant to us are better dealt with in Shakepseare and Dickens than Joshua and Judges, don't you think?
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The Midianites were oppressive and hostile to the Israelites. They were often raiding Israel with the use of swift camels.
What about the children? And presumably the Hebrews were not hostile? There you have it, an old tribal squabble over land and resources, and the victors commit great carnage and attribute it to their god. In that respect, the Hebrews are no different from any of the other tribes of the Orient.
Yeah, the Philistines, an evil and oppressive people. And their foreskins were chopped off by David's army, not on order of God, but on order of King Saul, a king God rejected.
Since you like quoting scripture, ladies, what do you think of 2 Samuel 3:14, which says "Then David sent messengers to Ish-Bosheth son of Saul, demanding, "Give me my wife Michal, whom I betrothed to myself for the price of a hundred Philistine foreskins." (I've always liked quoting it to annoy girls ;) )
And you tell me the Bible isn't bizarre???
The "prank" was played by Isaac's mother. Isaac's older brother is the one who sold his birth right for a bowl of beans.
This is the prank I had in mind:
Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
Genesis 22:12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."
Come on, Abe, I was just messing with you. Does God have a sense of humor or what? Presumably Loco, if God were to "tell" you to sacrifice your son for him, you'd do as Abraham did?
God did not command Israel to destroy every nation in the promised land. God commanded Israel to destroy only certain nations that were evil, involved in human sacrifice, or were oppressive toward Israel upon Israel's arrival or they were oppressive toward surrounding nations.
Well isn't that convenient. Any people you don't like, you "destroy" them and say God commanded you to do it... just as God commands the Muslims to behead "infidels" in Iraq, blow up their fellow Muslims' mosques, and fly planes into skyscrapers, under orders from God.
I wonder, why can't the God who struck down Onan and submerged the world in flood do his own dirty work?
Funny how people here are bothered that God destroyed these evil and oppressive nations.
Does it not bother you that Muslim terrorists are on a mission from God also to destroy the evil and oppressive nations of the West? God speaks to them just as he spoke to the Hebrews!!!
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Man, I hear alot of hurt & anger in your posts. I know you've said that you're not angry, but it's hard to see where you're not.
No man, I am not angry. It bothers me, though, that intelligent, educated people can't see what an obvious forgery so much of this stuff is. I think it mostly goes back to children being indoctrinated in their early, innocent youth. We are all taught what Stephen Jay Gould called "NOMA" (Non-Overlapping Magisteria).
Reason and faith, we are told, operate in two non-overlapping magisteria. Reason belongs in math and science and history class, in learning to balance our checkbooks and spend or save our money, etc, and faith is in religious education class, church, etc... Supposedly, one deals with the "age of rocks," and the other with the "rock of ages." One tells us "how to get to heaven," and the other "how the heavens go."
In practice, teaching children "faith" means teaching them to suspend their reason and faculties of critical thinking. Thus, we are told to accept, WITH NO PROOF WHATSOEVER, that a man (who is also God and the son of God) with no human father was born from a virgin (who, many Christians like to think, remained a virgin even after his birth) etc etc etc
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. For the massive whoppers of claims it makes, religion (any religion) should have solid, irrefutable evidence if it wants people to take it seriously. It has none, however. What it does have, is access to children's minds to teach them that this is the one area where they are not supposed to exercise their faculties of reason and intellect.
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No man, I am not angry. It bothers me, though, that intelligent, educated people can't see what an obvious forgery so much of this stuff is. I think it mostly goes back to children being indoctrinated in their early, innocent youth. We are all taught what Stephen Jay Gould called "NOMA" (Non-Overlapping Magisteria).
Reason and faith, we are told, operate in two non-overlapping magisteria. Reason belongs in math and science and history class, in learning to balance our checkbooks and spend or save our money, etc, and faith is in religious education class, church, etc... Supposedly, one deals with the "age of rocks," and the other with the "rock of ages." One tells us "how to get to heaven," and the other "how the heavens go."
In practice, teaching children "faith" means teaching them to suspend their reason and faculties of critical thinking. Thus, we are told to accept, WITH NO PROOF WHATSOEVER, that a man (who is also God and the son of God) with no human father was born from a virgin (who, many Christians like to think, remained a virgin even after his birth) etc etc etc
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. For the massive whoppers of claims it makes, religion (any religion) should have solid, irrefutable evidence if it wants people to take it seriously. It has none, however. What it does have, is access to children's minds to teach them that this is the one area where they are not supposed to exercise their faculties of reason and intellect.
Stephen Jay Gould is also quoted saying:
"To say it for all my colleagues and for the umpteenth million time (from college bull sessions to learned treatises): science simply cannot (by its legitimate methods) adjudicate the issue of God’s possible superintendence of nature. We neither affirm nor deny it; we simply can’t comment on it as scientists."
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Yes he did. What makes him think that various religions have more to say on the matter than rigorous science?
Think of all the contradictory religions that claim exclusive truth and presume that all other faiths are false. At most one of all these faiths is true. (Either just one is true, or all are false. But no two can both be true.) This demands humility on the part of every faith.
Science cannot "disprove" the Judeo-Christian God, but neither can it "disprove" Zeus. It doesn't mean the existence of either one is likely :)
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O R T H O D O X Y
:P :D ;D
That's a good one hahahaha.
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What about the children?
What about the children? I don't know. I do not have all the answers. Leave them behind so they can grow to be as evil as their parents and seek revenge? That actually happened, in more than one occasion. And children do get blessed or cursed by their parent's choices, no matter what those children do. I don't like it, but that's life. But these stories serve as lessons to us so that we are aware that our choice may affect generations to come, in a positive or negative way. It's a reality and God warns us about this.
Since you like quoting scripture, ladies, what do you think of 2 Samuel 3:14, which says "Then David sent messengers to Ish-Bosheth son of Saul, demanding, "Give me my wife Michal, whom I betrothed to myself for the price of a hundred Philistine foreskins." (I've always liked quoting it to annoy girls ;) )
And you tell me the Bible isn't bizarre???
David did not have any possessions to offer Saul for his bride, a custom accepted in many cultures, even today in Chinese and Indian culture. Women in these cultures do not have a problem with this and actually see it as flattery. Saul did not want to give David his daughter in marriage. So Saul gave David what he thought an impossible task in exchange for his daughter, to kill 100 Philistines and bring to Saul their foreskins. Saul must have thought David would not even try, or try and fail. David killed instead 200 Philistines and brought Saul their foreskins.
This might offend you because of your culture. But women in those days would have given anything to be with the famous warrior David, and any of them would have been flattered to know David chopped the tips of 200 Philistine wieners, not a fun task I'm sure, for a woman.
This is the prank I had in mind:
Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
Genesis 22:12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."
Come on, Abe, I was just messing with you. Does God have a sense of humor or what? Presumably Loco, if God were to "tell" you to sacrifice your son for him, you'd do as Abraham did?
My apologies. I got Isaac and Jacob mixed up. Sorry!
This is not a prank, but a test of faith. Would I do as Abraham did if God asked me to do the same thing? I don't know. I wish I had the faith of Abraham.
And presumably the Hebrews were not hostile? There you have it, an old tribal squabble over land and resources, and the victors commit great carnage and attribute it to their god. In that respect, the Hebrews are no different from any of the other tribes of the Orient.
Well isn't that convenient. Any people you don't like, you "destroy" them and say God commanded you to do it... just as God commands the Muslims to behead "infidels" in Iraq, blow up their fellow Muslims' mosques, and fly planes into skyscrapers, under orders from God.
Does it not bother you that Muslim terrorists are on a mission from God also to destroy the evil and oppressive nations of the West? God speaks to them just as he spoke to the Hebrews!!!
Israel was truly commanded by God to destroy these evil nations.
1. God actually spoke to them, not just Moses, but all of Israel at Mount Sinai. Israel also witnessed many miracles that showed it was God that was telling them what to do.
2. Israel disobeyed God's command to completely destroy an evil nation in more than one occasion, not because they felt that it was wrong, but because they wanted to keep the people as slaves, and to keep their possessions. God punished Israel for this. So how then can they have been acting on their own?
But that was then and that was Israel.
Yes, it bothers me when anyone, even Christians, do something and then say "God told me so." God did not tell them so. That is completely different.
I wonder, why can't the God who struck down Onan and submerged the world in flood do his own dirty work?
God could have. God can do whatever He wants to do. God has punished wickedness in many ways, as He sees fit, by using His own creation, whether it is nature or Israel, Babylon, Xerxes or Alexander The Great.
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Would I do as Abraham did if God asked me to do the same thing? I don't know. I wish I had the faith of Abraham.
I sincerely hope you won't slaughter your children just because you hear voices in your head telling you to do so. ;D
I am horrified that "faith" in our culture is treated like such a high and noble thing. Have faith, faith in any religion. Be a Christian, Muslim, Jew, or Hindu... as long as you believe in some far-fetched magical stories, then you are a good person. Then it don't matter how many people you kill or hurt, or how much evil you do, as long as you say you "believe in" the baby Jesus, then all will be well...
Yes, it bothers me when anyone, even Christians, do something and then say "God told me so." God did not tell them so. That is completely different.
Yes, of course... When God speaks to the Hebrews and tells them to go murder and pillage, that's divine. When God speaks to Muslims and tells them to go kill Jews and infidels, that's not God talking... Completely different. Presumably you have solid, irrefutable evidence that God told the former but not the latter...
Incidentally, doesn't it bother you what a schizo Yahweh is? I mean, first he tells them "Thou shalt not kill" (by which, it seems, he meant "Thou shalt not kill another Jew"). Then, a couple books later in the Bible, he sends them out on these missions to kill other people in large numbers (even the women and children) and take their land. The only human lives that matter to him are those of his "chosen people." Then a few centuries later, he becomes "God the Father," big cuddly daddy-type in the sky who "so loved the world" he sent himself, also his son, Gentle Jesus meek and mild, to save us all...
Then six centuries later, he forgets the Hebrews, sends his angel to the Arabs of the desert with yet another revelation mostly plagiarized from the first two...
Then, 1200 years later, he sends an as-yet-unknown angel, Moroni, to Joseph Smith to inform us that some old Hebrews had traveled to America around 600 BC and that Jesus had visited them in America in AD 34 after flying out of Jerusalem. These Hebrews had gone on to become the native Americans, who had no idea they were really of Jewish descent.
My friend, these religions are all very obviously shameless forgeries of one another. God did not create man in his image. Man created God in his image, in the image of the pettiest, angriest, most jealous, vainest, meanest, third-grade schoolyard bully of a man...
God has punished wickedness in many ways, as He sees fit, by using His own creation, whether it is nature or Israel, Babylon, Xerxes or Alexander The Great.
... or, according to America's religious right, Osama bin Laden!!!
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I sincerely hope you won't slaughter your children just because you hear voices in your head telling you to do so. ;D
Don't worry! Were I Abraham in Abraham's time, I don't know what I would do if God tested my faith as He did with Abraham.
Were I, loco, to hear a voice in my head today telling me to sacrifice my child for God, I would not do it. Here is why:
1. It is written that God did not want Abraham to sacrifice his son for God. God was only testing Abraham's faith. In the Bible, that was the only time that God tested a person's faith in that way. This shows us that God does not want human sacrifice.
2. It is written that many years after Abraham's time, God said:
Deuteronomy 12:31
You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
Deuteronomy 18:10
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire
So it is clear that God would not want any of us to sacrifice our children to Him. To God, such a thing is detestable. If I heard a voice in my head telling me to do such a thing, I would know that this is NOT the voice of God, but rather the voice from Satan or simply me going insane..truly loco in the head. I do not listen to voices in my head, not that I have heard any so far. I listen only the the Word of God in the Bible and to the Holy Spirit in me, who never contradicts the Bible. I use the Bible to test and identify false voices, false spirits, false teachers and false prophets.
I am horrified that "faith" in our culture is treated like such a high and noble thing. Have faith, faith in any religion. Be a Christian, Muslim, Jew, or Hindu... as long as you believe in some far-fetched magical stories, then you are a good person. Then it don't matter how many people you kill or hurt, or how much evil you do, as long as you say you "believe in" the baby Jesus, then all will be well...
What's wrong with believing through faith that this is God's word? What's wrong with practicing this in faith?
Exodus
"Honor thy father and thy mother." 20:12
"Thou shalt not kill." 20:13
"Thou shalt not commit adultery." 20:14
"Thou shalt not steal." 20:15
"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." 20:16
Be kind to strangers, widows, and fatherless children. 22:21-22
Value the truth; don't lie. 23:1
Don't do what everyone else does, if what they do is wrong. 23:2
Be kind to your enemies. Do good to those who hate you. 23:4-5
Treat the poor fairly. 23:6
Be honest. Don't kill the innocent. 23:7
Don't mistreat strangers. 23:9
Every seventh year the Israelites were to leave their fields unharvested, so that the poor would have something to eat. 23:11
Luke
Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely. 3:14
Love you enemies; do good to those who hate you. 6:27
The Golden Rule: Treat others as you would like to be treated. 6:31-34
"Love your enemies." 6:35
"Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." 6:36
Don't judge or condemn others. Forgive those who have offended you. 6:37
Jesus warns against hypocrisy. 6:41
Love thy neighbor as thyself. 10:27
Yes, of course... When God speaks to the Hebrews and tells them to go murder and pillage, that's divine. When God speaks to Muslims and tells them to go kill Jews and infidels, that's not God talking... Completely different.
Not that this proves anything, but it is worth mentioning.
What do Muslims have to say? "God told me so, not directly, but through the prophet Mohamed who heard it, not directly from God, but indirectly through the angel Gabriel."
What do Jews say? "God spoke to us, all of us, directly. All of Israel stood at the foot of mount Sinai and all of Israel heard God's loud voice give us the law.
Then there is the Bible accuracies, fulfilled prophecies, and Bible archeology. Then there is also the return of Israel to the promised land in our generation, the re-birth of Israel in only one day, the Six Day War(They fought for 6 days and on the 7th day they rested. Israel's enemies surrendered after six days of fighting.), etc.
Ever stop to think why the Jews are the only ancient people who have kept their identity, their heritage, their culture, their language and their religion? Look at Egypt and Iran? They are nothing like they used to be. The Jews have remained the same. Not even the Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, and Roman empires could force their language, culture and religion on them. Not even the Muslims or the Roman Catholic church could change them. Israel truly is God's people.
Why do I believe the Jews? Because Jesus, a Jew, changed my life. I believe in Jesus, and if I believe in Jesus, then I also must believe that everything that Jesus says in the New Testament of the Bible is true. And Jesus said that everything in the Old Testament is true. Therefore, I believe everything that the Old Testament says and therefore I believe the Jews.
Presumably you have solid, irrefutable evidence that God told the former but not the latter...
Yes, Israel did at the time.
Incidentally, doesn't it bother you what a schizo Yahweh is? I mean, first he tells them "Thou shalt not kill" (by which, it seems, he meant "Thou shalt not kill another Jew"). Then, a couple books later in the Bible, he sends them out on these missions to kill other people in large numbers (even the women and children) and take their land. The only human lives that matter to him are those of his "chosen people."
There is a huge difference between murder and capital punishment. US Courts and states send criminals to the electric chair, gas chamber or to their death by lethal injection. Doesn't it bother you that US law says "Thou shall not kill", yet you kill a criminal because he/she killed?
Yes, it bothers me that God would send Israel to kill other people, including women and children. And it should bother me. But I trust God's wisdom and justice. God gave these nations many chances, many warnings, and they did not listen. So they were judged and condemned. Only God creates life and only God can give or take it as He sees fit. And we humans need to watch our choices and actions as they often affect our children and our children's children.
Then a few centuries later, he becomes "God the Father," big cuddly daddy-type in the sky who "so loved the world" he sent himself, also his son, Gentle Jesus meek and mild, to save us all...
Then six centuries later, he forgets the Hebrews, sends his angel to the Arabs of the desert with yet another revelation mostly plagiarized from the first two...
Then, 1200 years later, he sends an as-yet-unknown angel, Moroni, to Joseph Smith to inform us that some old Hebrews had traveled to America around 600 BC and that Jesus had visited them in America in AD 34 after flying out of Jerusalem. These Hebrews had gone on to become the native Americans, who had no idea they were really of Jewish descent.
My friend, these religions are all very obviously shameless forgeries of one another. God did not create man in his image. Man created God in his image, in the image of the pettiest, angriest, most jealous, vainest, meanest, third-grade schoolyard bully of a man...
... or, according to America's religious right, Osama bin Laden!!!
I am going to have to let somebody else discuss this last part with you. I do not believe that God is a "big cuddly daddy-type in the sky" and I do not believe that God used Osama bin Laden to punish America. God is good, just and patient. But God is also one to be feared and respected. He will punish and destroy the wicked, but God prefers that the wicked repents and be forgiven.
2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.
Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
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Were I, loco, to hear a voice in my head today telling me to sacrifice my child for God, I would not do it.
My heart rejoices... for your children's sake :)
So it is clear that God would not want any of us to sacrifice our children to Him. To God, such a thing is detestable.
Read up on your scripture man!!!! From Judges 11:
30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
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31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
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32 So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.
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33 And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.
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34 And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.
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35 And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.
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36 And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.
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37 And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.
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38 And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
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39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,
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40 That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.
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God may have simply been testing Abraham's faith, but he wanted Jephthah to kill his own daughter for God!!!
What's wrong with believing through faith that this is God's word?
Here's my problem with "faith." "Faith" demands the suspension of reason. You are told to accept, with no evidence whatsoever, some Iron Age texts (contradictory and bizarre as they may be) as axioms not to be questioned. Reason and common sense are to be suspended. You are to be lauded for saying you won't kill your children on God's orders. But that makes you one of "little faith." You won't kill your children because your reason holds some sway over your faith, so you rationalized it away. Surely, the suicide bomber who answers God's call to kill is far more faithful than you! He practices what he preaches!!!
As for all those good acts you mention, they don't mean your faith is "right." They can just as well be practiced by a Muslim, a Jew, an Atheist, or a Buddhist. We don't need faith and supernatural threats of hell-fire and damnation to be good.
What's wrong with practicing this in faith?
Once again, faith is the suspension of reason. Your faith may be leading you to be good, but you can be good any way. Many others are being led by faith to commit unspeakable horrors. Once again, the suicide bomber comes to mind.
Not that this proves anything, but it is worth mentioning.
No it doesn't. None of that shows why when God speaks to Jews, or Christians, or you, it's actually God speaking, but when God speaks to Muslims and tells them to blow shit up it isn't really God speaking. Incidentally, if the Jews are God's people, why hasn't he taken the time in the past 2000 years to send them a memo saying Judaism is over and he has a new revelation for them? Or has he stopped speaking to them ever since he started speaking to the Gentiles and Arabs?
The rest of your logic is so fallacious and contorted (no offense meant) that it is one non sequitur after another after another.
Ever stop to think why the Jews are the only ancient people who have kept their identity, their heritage, their culture, their language and their religion?
What about the Aborigines of Australia? Or the other Pacific islanders? Or the Arabs? Their languages and religions still exist. In fact, whereas the Hebrew language changed (the influence of Yiddish etc) Arabic is still the same today as it was in the time of Mohammed. In fact, God forgot the Jews and let them be persecuted for centuries, but he helped the Muslims conquer the Orient, northern Africa, Spain, southeastern Europe, parts of France, and central Asia all the way to the borders of China. God let the Muslims conquer the Christian Byzantine empire and defeat the Crusaders. So your claims prove nothing yet again.
You seem to use the word "believe" over and over, yet you admit not having seen a single shred of evidence. You believe because you believe because you believe. How do you know that what Jesus said in the Bible is what Jesus really said? Why don't you also believe in "The Book of Mormon: A second testament of Jesus Christ"? It's just a matter of personal preference for you.
Yes, it bothers me that God would send Israel to kill other people, including women and children. And it should bother me. But I trust God's wisdom and justice. God gave these nations many chances, many warnings, and they did not listen. So they were judged and condemned. Only God creates life and only God can give or take it as He sees fit. And we humans need to watch our choices and actions as they often affect our children and our children's children.
You probably don't know how scary that sounds. Let me change just two nouns...
Yes, it bothers me that Allah would send the Arabs to kill other people, including women and children. And it should bother me. But I trust Allah's wisdom and justice. Allah gave these nations [presumably the USA and the West] many chances, many warnings, and they did not listen. So they were judged and condemned. Only Allah creates life and only Allah can give or take it as He sees fit. And we humans need to watch our choices and actions as they often affect our children and our children's children.
Sounds like something you'd hear on a cassette tape from a cave in Afghanistan? It is just as valid as the statement you made.
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Do you have any people that you "look up to?"
To answer your other question, no, not really. :)
Would you say that you are the most morally upright person that you know?
Also, re: Jephthah....God did not "want Jephthah to kill his own daughter for God." It was a vow Jephthah made on his own. He killed his daughter all on his own.
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I honestly don't evaluate other people's "moral uprightness" (whatever that means, exactly).
I am glad to say, however, that I have a clear conscience and I do the best I know :)
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I honestly don't evaluate other people's "moral uprightness" (whatever that means, exactly).
You don't? But you do. It is all you've been doing on this board. :)
I am glad to say, however, that I have a clear conscience and I do the best I know :)
Good for you! "the best I know"? Who or what do you know this from? Who sets the moral standards?
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Who sets the moral standards?
Certainly not Yahweh or his henchmen. See my previous post ;D
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--Well isn't that convenient. Any people you don't like, you "destroy" them and say God commanded you to do it... just as God commands the Muslims to behead "infidels" in Iraq, blow up their fellow Muslims' mosques, and fly planes into skyscrapers, under orders from God.
--I wonder, why can't the God who struck down Onan and submerged the world in flood do his own dirty work?
--Does it not bother you that Muslim terrorists are on a mission from God also to destroy the evil and oppressive nations of the West?
--My heart rejoices... for your children's sake :)
--You are to be lauded for saying you won't kill your children on God's orders.
--Many others are being led by faith to commit unspeakable horrors. Once again, the suicide bomber comes to mind.
--So many moral dilemmas relevant to us are better dealt with in Shakepseare and Dickens than Joshua and Judges, don't you think?
I honestly don't evaluate other people's "moral uprightness" (whatever that means, exactly).
???
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Apart from Stella's reference to Jephthah, it's like you are nitpicking at semantics about my views on morality, and ignoring my long post above.
EVEN IF I had nothing to base my views of morality on, what on earth makes anyone think I would look to the killer of every first-born child in Egypt for moral dictates???
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Apart from Stella's reference to Jephthah, it's like you are nitpicking at semantics about my views on morality, and ignoring my long post above.
EVEN IF I had nothing to base my views of morality on, what on earth makes anyone think I would look to the killer of every first-born child in Egypt for moral dictates???
columbusdude, just wondering and of course you do not have to answer anything you're not comfortable with.....when did you develop a feeling of disdain for the God of the bible? Was it when you were still considered a Catholic or when you delved into Protestant Fundamentalism or later?
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In my teens, Catholicism bored me, as in it just appeared really, embarrassingly silly. All the "hocus pocus" of the transsubstantiation, "holy water," etc etc... I had tried hard for many years to convince myself that the wafer was really the body of Christ, and the wine was really the blood... but how much it takes to affirm the obviously false! It was still wafer and wine. Also, all the sexual rules never made the slightest sense: I never could understand why it was so wrong for me to do what 14-year-old boys usually do, or why I should feel bad for noticing a girl's boobies :)
My disdain for the "suspension of reason" began with September 11, 2001, and then the palestinian campaign of "martyrdom" in Israeli cities, and then Iraq. I found myself having to explain to Muslims (people of faith) why I thought suicide bombing against civilians was wrong. Surely, they argued, if it is sanctioned by one's faith, it must be respected.
Then I began to see the "suspension of reason" appear (though not as violently) in America, in politics and in the curriculum.
I found out that my disdain for Islam was really a disdain for the "suspension of reason."
As for the God of the Bible, I feel no more disdain for him than I do for his fellow mythological figures Zeus, Apollo, Jupiter, etc... Mythology is fascinating, but for us to be forcing the mythologies of the past as "holy" texts to be "respected" is madness, and leads to such stupidies and absurdities as suicide bombing, creationism, and intelligent design...
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Thanks for answering columbusdude. I agree w/you about Catholicism. Many of the traditional "beliefs" including confessing to a priest, Mary "worship," dead-people "worship" (praying to "saints"), forbidding marriage and eating of meat etc. actually go against what the bible teaches. As for transsubstantiation...th at is really bizzare also. I mean, do they teach that the priest that "blesses" the elements has some magical power to turn them into the flesh and blood? I'll never accept that.
I'm sure you probably realize much of Catholic tradition has nothing to do w/the bible.
But you said you were involved in Protestant Fundamentalism for a time. How long was that? Did you read the bible much w/that mindset? Did the God of the bible make sense to you then?
Do you believe you've ever accepted Christ as Savior? This is "by Grace through faith and not of works, so that no man can boast." EPH 2:8,9. It means you believe you are a sinner and need forgiveness....that you accept that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and was resurrected.....you accept the free give of forgiveness this provides. Do you feel that ever happened to you?
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What about the children? I don't know. I do not have all the answers. Leave them behind so they can grow to be as evil as their parents and seek revenge? That actually happened, in more than one occasion. And children do get blessed or cursed by their parent's choices, no matter what those children do. I don't like it, but that's life. But these stories serve as lessons to us so that we are aware that our choice may affect generations to come, in a positive or negative way. It's a reality and God warns us about this.
This is classic. Desensitizing and justifying the slaughter of children to preserve the claim that the bible is the 100% word of God.
That's absurd.
At some point maybe you'll see just how ridiculous that is.
Show would we have been justified in killing every last child of Nazis in ww2? This is a good example of how civilization and morals have surpassed the book of stories.
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This is classic. Desensitizing and justifying the slaughter of children to preserve the claim that the bible is the 100% word of God.
That's absurd.
At some point maybe you'll see just how ridiculous that is.
Sure, people get up and accuse and condemn God for this. Yet the same people kill unborn babies or just stand by and do nothing about it. Sure, a woman has a right to choose. But what about the defenseless, unborn baby? Does he/she not have a right to choose to live? Kind of hypocritical, don't you think?
I bet you if the Bible said that pre-marital sex, abortion and homosexuality are not sins, then the same people would completely ignore the destruction of wicked nations in the Bible and have no problems with the Bible at all. ;)
Show would we have been justified in killing every last child of Nazis in ww2? This is a good example of how civilization and morals have surpassed the book of stories.
That doesn't make any sense, OzmO. WW2 wasn't that long ago and Nazis were exterminating Jews, men, women and children. Why? Because they were wicked? No, only because they were Jew.
And "This is a good example of how civilization and morals have surpassed the book of stories." ???
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Sure, people get up and accuse and condemn God for this. Yet the same people kill unborn babies or just stand by and do nothing about it. Sure, a woman has a right to choose. But what about the defenseless, unborn baby? Does he/she not have a right to choose to live? Kind of hypocritical, don't you think?
I bet you if the Bible said that pre-marital sex, abortion and homosexuality are not sins, then the same people would completely ignore the destruction of wicked nations in the Bible and have no problems with the Bible at all. ;)
HAHAHAHA. Can't you address the issue with out trying to derail it in another direction? Is the "alleged" Word of God so weak?
In the BIBLE.................GO D endorsed the killing and slaughter of Children and people like you sit there and try to justify it.
THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR KILLING CHILDREN. ( ::) but there was justification for killing 3000 men because they might have killed children? ::))
Stay on point loco, or is the "word of God" not up to the task?
That doesn't make any sense, OzmO. WW2 wasn't that long ago and Nazis were exterminating Jews, men, women and children. Why? Because they were wicked? No, only because they were Jew.
Is this another example where you pretend to misunderstand the point in hopes of changing it?
1. The Nazis were evil.
2. You said: Leave them behind so they can grow to be as evil as their parents and seek revenge? That actually happened, in more than one occasion. And children do get blessed or cursed by their parent's choices, no matter what those children do. I don't like it, but that's life.
3. Wasn't that your justification for killing the children if the Medinites?
4. So would be as justified in Killing Nazis children beck then?
If we followed the moral example set by "god" in the OT then we would have been justified in killing the children of Nazis wouldn't we?
That's why civilization has surpassed the book of stories.
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HAHAHAHA. Can't you address the issue with out trying to derail it in another direction? Is the "alleged" Word of God so weak?
Looks like I hit a nerve. ;D
In the BIBLE.................GO D endorsed the killing and slaughter of Children and people like you sit there and try to justify it.
In the BIBLE, GOD has NEVER "endorsed" the murder of anybody, nor the killing or slaughter of children. God did order the destruction of certain, specific wicked nations, which included their children, and their possesions. This doesn't mean that God endorses the killing of children. That's ridiculous.
THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR KILLING CHILDREN. ( ::) but there was justification for killing 3000 men because they might have killed children? ::))
Stay on point loco, or is the "word of God" not up to the task?
What? ;D
Funny. First you bring up the "killing of 3000 men"....AGAIN...then you tell me to stay on point?
You keep bringing up the "killing of 3000 men", yet on the thread where we were specifically discussing this very point, you abandoned the discussion and gave up...only to keep throwing it here and there as you please. We can get back to that thread and continue kicking this dead horse whenever you say.
Is this another example where you pretend to misunderstand the point in hopes of changing it?
1. The Nazis were evil.
2. You said:
3. Wasn't that your justification for killing the children if the Medinites?
4. So would be as justified in Killing Nazis children beck then?
If we followed the moral example set by "god" in the OT then we would have been justified in killing the children of Nazis wouldn't we?
First, I didn't misunderstand anything. I see what you are saying, but it is false. God gave Israel specific orders to destroy specific, wicked nations. Now, show me where in the Bible God order anyone to kill the children of Nazis? So NO, this does not justify the killing of children of Nazis. If you want to kill the children of Nazis or the children of anyone, you would be acting on your own and not on orders from God. Your logic is "absurd".
That's why civilization has surpassed the book of stories.
Now, this is what I was talking about. This doesn't make sense. Civilisation has not surpassed anything when you just mentioned Nazis killing Jews only because they are Jew. Were the Germans not civilized? What about all the people around the world who knew about the Holocaust and stood by and did nothing about it? Were those people not civilized?
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OzmO, I know you believe in God. Is the God in which you believe omniscient?
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In the BIBLE, GOD has NEVER "endorsed" the murder of anybody, nor the killing or slaughter of children. God did order the destruction of certain, specific wicked nations, which included their children, and their possesions. This doesn't mean that God endorses the killing of children. That's ridiculous.
So ordering the killing of people is not endorsing it? Com on loco.
God ordered the killing of Children. PERIOD. Spin it as much as you want but the God in the OT is one evil bastard.
What? Grin
Funny. First you bring up the "killing of 3000 men"....AGAIN...then you tell me to stay on point?
You keep bringing up the "killing of 3000 men", yet on the thread where we were specifically discussing this very point, you abandoned the discussion and gave up...only to keep throwing it here and there as you please. We can get back to that thread and continue kicking this dead horse whenever you say.
I know, :) i couldn't help it. because it such hypocrisy. Becuase it relates to another debate we had when you claim the 3000 men were killed to prevent the sacrificial killing of children but it's ok to kill children if they belong to a "evil" nation. ::) More monster double standards brought to you by the allege WOG.
First, I didn't misunderstand anything. I see what you are saying, but it is false. God gave Israel specific orders to destroy specific, wicked nations. Now, show me where in the Bible God order anyone to kill the children of Nazis? So NO, this does not justify the killing of children of Nazis. If you want to kill the children of Nazis or the children of anyone, you would be acting on your own and not on orders from God. Your logic is "absurd".
What I'm saying it not false loco. You are playing the "stupid" game by trying to act like you don;t understand the concept of drawing comparisons and you top it off by the stupid question:
Now, show me where in the Bible God order anyone to kill the children of Nazis?
My Logic is absurd? You support a book that justifies the killing of children and you call me absurd? HAHAHAHAHA ::)
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OzmO, I know you believe in God. Is the God in which you believe omniscient?
Stella,
You must remember, my main contention is that the Bible is not the 100% Word of God.
Yes, i believe God is omniscient.
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Stella,
You must remember, my main contention is that the Bible is not the 100% Word of God.
OK yes
Yes, i believe God is omniscient.
Knowing what you know now about Adolf Hitler or Ted Bundy, would it have been better if they would have died at some point in their life before embarking on their murderous rampages?
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OK yes
Knowing what you know now about Adolf Hitler or Ted Bundy, would it have been better if they would have died at some point in their life before embarking on their murderous rampages?
Would killing 1000 children in hopes of killing Adolf Hitler and Ted Bundy be justified?
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My heart rejoices... for your children's sake :)
You are welcome! I'm glad that I can bring rejoicing to your life! ;)
Read up on your scripture man!!!! From Judges 11:
Oh, don't worry! I have been studying the Bible everyday for the last 20 years. ;)
God may have simply been testing Abraham's faith, but he wanted Jephthah to kill his own daughter for God!!!
Also, re: Jephthah....God did not "want Jephthah to kill his own daughter for God." It was a vow Jephthah made on his own. He killed his daughter all on his own.
Maybe you should "Read up on your scripture man!!!!" :)
Here's my problem with "faith." "Faith" demands the suspension of reason. You are told to accept, with no evidence whatsoever, some Iron Age texts (contradictory and bizarre as they
may be) as axioms not to be questioned. Reason and common sense are to be suspended.
Thanks to her faith in Jesus Christ, Lottie Moon was driven to give up her comfy life in the US and move to China where she died helping, educating and feeding starving Chinese.
Thanks to his faith in the God of the Bible, George Muller was driven and empowered to care for, feed and educate more than 100,000 orphans in his life time.
Thanks to his faith in Jesus Christ, Dietrich Bonhoeffer refused to stand by and do nothing about the Holocaust. His faith gave him the courage to opposed Hitler's treatment of Jews and he also helped many Jews escape. For this he was arrested, tortured and murdered by the Nazis.
These are just several of many examples of the good that comes from true faith in Jesus Christ. Can you name several atheists by name that have done nearly as much as these people?
You are to be lauded for saying you won't kill your children on God's orders. But that makes you one of "little faith." You won't kill your children because your reason holds some sway over your faith, so you rationalized it away. Surely, the suicide bomber who answers God's call to kill is far more faithful than you! He practices what he preaches!!!
No. You are wrong. I won't kill my children were I to hear "God's orders" in my head because God already told me in the Bible that God does not want, and actually forbids human sacrifice. Therefore, by your own logic, that makes me a man of great faith, great faith in God and great faith in His Word, the Bible. I practice what I preach.
As for all those good acts you mention, they don't mean your faith is "right." They can just as well be practiced by a Muslim, a Jew, an Atheist, or a Buddhist. We don't need faith and supernatural threats of hell-fire and damnation to be good.
Those "good acts" are more than just that. They are God's law, and they are good. Obviously, the world was not practicing them before God gave them. Otherwise God would not have given them. People were doing the opposite and probably thinking that it was okay, burning their children on the fire for their idols, committing adultery, stealing, etc.
And how is this a "supernatural threats of hell-fire and damnation to be good."
Deuteronomy 5:16
"Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
Deuteronomy 5:32-33
So be careful to do what the LORD your God has commanded you; do not turn aside to the right or to the left. Walk in all the way that the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess.
Once again, faith is the suspension of reason. Your faith may be leading you to be good, but you can be good any way.
So if my faith is leading me and many others to do good or be good, how is our faith wrong or bad? What is the problem then?
Many others are being led by faith to commit unspeakable horrors. Once again, the suicide bomber comes to mind.
Agreed, but the Bible does not teach anyone to do this, suicide bombings or suicide attacks of any kind. And that doesn't mean that faith in itself is bad or evil. It's like saying that a scalpel is evil because it's sharp and can or has been used to cut someone's throat and killed him/her. No, a scalpel was designed to perform surgery on a person to save him/her or make his/her health better. Same with faith. Faith in itself is good.
No it doesn't. None of that shows why when God speaks to Jews, or Christians, or you, it's actually God speaking, but when God speaks to Muslims and tells them to blow shit up it isn't really God speaking.
First of all, you do not see Jews or Christian suicide bombers. You do not see Jews and Christians flying planes into buildings. Explain that.
Incidentally, if the Jews are God's people, why hasn't he taken the time in the past 2000 years to send them a memo saying Judaism is over and he has a new revelation for them? Or has he stopped speaking to them ever since he started speaking to the Gentiles and Arabs?
The last time God spoke to the world was through Jesus Christ. And and God has been performing a lot of miracles with Israel in our day and age, but you refuse to see.
The rest of your logic is so fallacious and contorted (no offense meant) that it is one non sequitur after another after another.
No offense taken. ;)
What about the Aborigines of Australia? Or the other Pacific islanders?
What about them? They can't compare to the Jews. Have they been exposed to all the same empires, attempts of assimilation, persecutions, attepmpt of exterminations over as many centuries as the Jews have? No. But I'm willing learn from you if you have any better examples.
Or the Arabs? Their languages and religions still exist.
Egypts original language was not Arab, nor were the Arab's original religion Islam. Islam is relatively new compare to Judaism and Christianity.
In fact, whereas the Hebrew language changed (the influence of Yiddish etc) Arabic is still the same today as it was in the time of Mohammed.
True, but now you are speaking of a language only, where as I was speaking of not only a language, but a nation, a people, a culture, etc. Arabs are not a nation, but a people of many nations. None can compare to Israel when you consider all aspects of the nation and the people of Israel.
In fact, God forgot the Jews
God didn't forget the Jews.
and let them be persecuted for centuries, but he helped the Muslims conquer the Orient, northern Africa, Spain, southeastern Europe, parts of France, and central Asia all the way to the borders of China. God let the Muslims conquer the Christian Byzantine empire and defeat the Crusaders. So your claims prove nothing yet again.
Only to get their butts kicked by "tiny" Israel over and over again for the past seven decades. ;)
You seem to use the word "believe" over and over, yet you admit not having seen a single shred of evidence. You believe because you believe because you believe. How do you know that what Jesus said in the Bible is what Jesus really said? Why don't you also believe in "The Book of Mormon: A second testament of Jesus Christ"? It's just a matter of personal preference for you.
First of all, I have faith. That faith came from God when I heard God's word. After I believed, I now do see evidence everywhere. And the book of the cult of Mormon contradicts both, the New and the Old testament.
You probably don't know how scary that sounds. Let me change just two nouns...
Sounds like something you'd hear on a cassette tape from a cave in Afghanistan? It is just as valid as the statement you made.
Scary? You are really scared of Jews and Christians? Then you are very easily scared. Again, there are no Jewish or Christian suicide bombers and Jews and Christians don't fly planes into buildings. So relax.
It is very clear that you have a bone to pick with Muslims. What puzzles me is that instead of attacking the Muslim faith and their religious texts, you insist on attacking the Bible, the Jewish and the Christian faiths. You continue to throw the Bible, Christians, Jews and suicide bombers in the same sentence. It doesn't make any sense to me.
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Would killing 1000 children in hopes of killing Adolf Hitler and Ted Bundy be justified?
God doesn't need to hope he "gets 'em" by killing off several. You and I agree that God is omniscient. Wouldn't He know what He was doing? He knows the past, present and future.
Even if you may think the odds are against a group of all 1000 children being "bad seeds", the possibility is there, correct?
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God doesn't need to hope he "gets 'em" by killing off several. You and I agree that God is omniscient. Wouldn't He know what He was doing? He knows the past, present and future.
Even if you may think the odds are against a group of all 1000 children being "bad seeds", the possibility is there, correct?
No i don't.
Common sense at the very least says it only justifies the action of man.
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So ordering the killing of people is not endorsing it? Com on loco.
God ordered the killing of Children. PERIOD. Spin it as much as you want but the God in the OT is one evil bastard.
I know, :) i couldn't help it. because it such hypocrisy. Becuase it relates to another debate we had when you claim the 3000 men were killed to prevent the sacrificial killing of children but it's ok to kill children if they belong to a "evil" nation. ::) More monster double standards brought to you by the allege WOG.
What I'm saying it not false loco. You are playing the "stupid" game by trying to act like you don;t understand the concept of drawing comparisons and you top it off by the stupid question:
My Logic is absurd? You support a book that justifies the killing of children and you call me absurd? HAHAHAHAHA ::)
OzmO,
God ordered Israel to destroy specific, wicked nations. God named them by name. This happened then, and then only. Had Israel attacked a nation in the name of God when God did not specifically ordered them to attack, God would have not been pleased and Israel would have been punished. That is not endorsing the murder of anyone, including children.
When was the last time you heard of Christian or Jews destroying a nation, children and all, in the name of God these days? And Christians and Jews believe the Bible is the word of God and read and study it daily. Explain that.
Why does the Bible tell you, OzmO(a guy who doesn't believe in the Bible), that God endorses killing children, yet it doesn't tell Christians and Jews that at all? On the contrary, our faith in the Bible makes us want to avoid evil and to do good. When was the last time you saw Christian and Jewish suicide bombers or when did you see them flying planes into buildings?
If you do not want to believe in the Bible because it doesn't endorse pre-marital sex, abortion and homosexuality, that is fine. That is your choice. Nobody is forcing you to believe in the Bible. But if faith in the Bible is driving Christians and Jews to do good and avoid evil, then what is your problem? Should we all covert to Islam then?
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OzmO,
God ordered Israel to destroy specific, wicked nations. God named them by name. This happened then, and then only. Had Israel attacked a nation in the name of God when God did not specifically ordered them to attack, God would have not been pleased and Israel would have been punished. That is not endorsing the murder of anyone, including children.
Let's go back to the original contention: the Bible is not the word of God.
For God to order a nation destroyed would mean killing the children and of course many innocent people.
When ordering someone to kill you are endorsing their action especially if you forbid to kill in the first place.
that is why the OT is not the word of God, but instead the word of man.
Why does the Bible tell you, OzmO(a guy who doesn't believe in the Bible), that God endorses killing children, yet it doesn't tell Christians and Jews that at all? On the contrary, our faith in the Bible makes want to avoid evil and to do good. When was the last time you saw Christian and Jewish suicide bombers or when did you see them flying planes into buildings?
Becuase, as most who profess themselves as Christians have not critically read the every word of the Bible. It's an unfortunate world we live in today when people hold on to their beliefs in the face of contradicting facts. Christians and Jews, Muslims and Hindus all know better than to kill children. The writers of the OT did not.
If you do not want to believe in the Bible because it doesn't endorse pre-marital sex, abortion and homosexuality, that is fine. That is your choice. Nobody is forcing you to believe in the Bible. But if faith in the Bible is driving Christians and Jews to do good and avoid evil, then what is your problem? Should be all covert to Islam then?
Life style choices being one of the many reasons the Bible is not the word God, is not my main reasons. This type of thing: Killing children and justifying it much in the way you do, in my heart and with common sense tells me the Bible is the word of man.
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Loco, the Book of Mormon is as valid a book of scripture to the Latterday Saints, and the Koran is as valid a revelation to Muslims, as the Bible is to you. Just because you dismiss them doesn't make them go away, or make the faith of their believers any less than yours. I know that the Book of Mormon is a clear forgery, and the Koran is a plagiarism of the previous two monotheisms, but to the believers, they are "holy" books, because of their SUSPENSION OF REASON. It is that same SUSPENSION OF REASON (also known as faith) that leads poor people to send their last dime to millionaire televangelists...
I have no more quarrel with Yahweh than I do with Zeus, Poseidon, Jupiter, and the other mythological heroes, but to force the mythologies of Yahweh into the science classroom, into the political agenda, into our civil laws is lunacy, all the more stupid because there is no more evidence for Yahweh than for Zeus, and because it takes a great deal of mental acrobatics (at which you are very good) to justify treating that mythology as "good," "moral," "holy," etc...
As for your list of people who committed "good acts," it's like you're reducing religion to charity. Suddenly the purpose of Christianity becomes to serve as USAID, Unicef, or Oxfam... "With or without religion, good people will commit good acts, and evil people will commit evil acts. But to get good people to commit evil acts, it takes religion."
As for your use of the term "atheist," let me draw your attention that you too, in the words of Richard Dawkins, "are an atheist with respect to most of the gods that mankind has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." I am only slighly more atheist than you :)
The last time God spoke to the world was through Jesus Christ.
Please send that memo to Pat Robertson, the Mormons, and the Muslims ;)
You are really scared of Jews and Christians?
Don't put words in my mouth. I said, by taking your exact same quote, replacing the noun "God" with "Allah," and "Israel" with "the Arabs," you get a chilling message that sounds like it came out of a cave in Afghanistan. You cannot deny other gods what you accept for your own. If your god can send people out to destroy wicked nations, then Allah too has every right to send Muslims to blow us up.
Christianity and Judaism have been "defanged" now, and the Church, for instance, can no longer torture and burn people who dare think. The Enlightenment and the Scientific Revolution happened because the Church was defanged, and its stranglehold on free inquiry removed. My hope is that Islam too will be defanged, by the same forces of reason and science.
The SUSPENSION OF REASON still makes Christianity dangerous. What if some nut decides to take literally the words of Jesus in Luke 19:27: "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me." You will probably defend him saying:
Yes, it bothers me that Jesus would send his followers to kill other people, including women and children. And it should bother me. But I trust Jesus's wisdom and justice. Jesus gave these people many chances, many warnings, and they did not listen. So they were judged and condemned. Only God creates life and only God can give or take it as He sees fit. And we humans need to watch our choices and actions as they often affect our children and our children's children.
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SUSPENSION OF REASON
Yeah, that's what causes a person to justify killing a nation which would mean killing children.
Loco, the next time you pass by a child, let's say 7 years old, imagine taking a sharp knife and cutting that child's throat and watching the child bleed to death right before your eyes. Imagine the sound of skin breaking ,imagine the scream, imagine the look on the mothers face.
Then try and tell me this is what GOD ordered for an entire nation of children
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Again, there are no Jewish or Christian suicide bombers and Jews and Christians don't fly planes into buildings. So relax.
I can relax on that count, but not others. There are intellectual midgets out there who want to force the creation myths of Judaism into the science curriculum as fact, IN SPITE OF mounds upon mounds of scientific evidence. They want to teach creationism as an "alternative" to science, which they think is "just another theory."
That is alarming! Presumably, their next step is to replace chemistry with alchemy and the mixing of "magic potions," and astronomy with "astrology," and algebra with tarot cards... These people want to sabotage the education of our children!!! There it is, the assault of FAITH on children's minds...
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SUSPENSION OF REASON
Yeah, that's what causes a person to justify killing a nation which would mean killing children.
OzmO,
You do realize that columbusdude82 is saying your faith in your inner god is a SUSPENSION OF REASON.
You are agreeing with him as if he believed as you do. To columbusdude82, you are no better than me. What's keeping your inner god from sending a little voice in your head telling you to kill your children.
Loco, the next time you pass by a child, let's say 7 years old, imagine taking a sharp knife and cutting that child's throat and watching the child bleed to death right before your eyes. Imagine the sound of skin breaking ,imagine the scream, imagine the look on the mothers face.
Then try and tell me this is what GOD ordered for an entire nation of children
This right here shows that you are one sick individual. ;)
My faith in the Bible makes it less likely for me to do something like that as I believe only in what is written in the Bible and not in following my heart or listening to voices in my head that come from "the god that is in me."
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loco, if OzmO suffers from the SUSPENSION OF REASON, you suffer from both that and related syndrome, the SUSPENSION OF HUMILITY.
You presume to say, with no evidence whatsoever, that your god is right, that your book is right, and that the others are false. You presume to say that when God speaks to the Hebrews, it's God speaking, and when God speaks to the Muslims, it's not God speaking. Why? Because you say so.
Why do you say so? Because you know it's true.
Why do you know it's true? Because you said so.
Yours is a circular logic that doesn't bother with anything as base as evidence...
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loco, if OzmO suffers from the SUSPENSION OF REASON, you suffer from both that and related syndrome, the SUSPENSION OF HUMILITY.
You presume to say, with no evidence whatsoever, that your god is right, that your book is right, and that the others are false. You presume to say that when God speaks to the Hebrews, it's God speaking, and when God speaks to the Muslims, it's not God speaking. Why? Because you say so.
Why do you say so? Because you know it's true.
Why do you know it's true? Because you said so.
Yours is a circular logic that doesn't bother with anything as base as evidence...
You said it yourself:
I know that the Book of Mormon is a clear forgery, and the Koran is a plagiarism of the previous two monotheisms
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Yes, I know that because I don't believe in magic. You want your preferred stories of magic to be true, but everyone else's to be false.
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OzmO,
You do realize that columbusdude82 is saying your faith in your inner god is a SUSPENSION OF REASON.
You are agreeing with him as if he believed as you do. To columbusdude82, you are no better than me. What's keeping your inner god from sending a little voice in your head telling you to kill your children.
No. What I'm telling you is that your belief the Bible is the 100% Word of God in the face of God ordering the death of children is a suspension of reason.
This right here shows that you are one sick individual. Wink
My faith in the Bible makes it less likely for me to do something like that as I believe only in what is written in the Bible and not in following my heart or listening to voices in my head that come from "the god that is in me."
Once again we are back to the part where you are avoiding the basis of the whole debate:
GOD ordered children to be slaughtered. I outlined the fact of what you are avoiding so you don't fall back on your "bad things happen in life" routine or it happened once and only once as if that makes it all ok.
You have made excuses, tried to mis-direct the focus etc... but at the end of the day, he, GOD, in the OT ordered men to slaughter children.
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bible, now that's some story i tell ya, damn.... noe was the best
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bible, now that's some story i tell ya, damn.... noe was the best
Oh you Frenchies... it's NOAH ;)
Ca va alors?
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Oh you Frenchies... it's NOAH ;)
Ca va alors?
tabarnak..... oops sorry english...damn, forgot about that one ..... NOAH!
what about adam and eve....... now that was true ::)
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beatmaster, don't question the Bible or God will FVCKIN KILL YOU!!!
Says so right there in the Bible ;)
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and that snake............. serious all true stories
god
A god is a being created by humans and given supernatural powers or attributes such as immortality, omniscience, telekinesis, and invisibility. These creations serve many purposes, such as imaginary protection from enemies or explanations for the origin of such things as good and evil, fire and wind, or life and death.
Gods are often the central figures around which religions are built. It is often claimed that religion began in fear and superstition. The same might be said for gods.
Some religions maintain that there is just one God and that all the gods of all religions except theirs were created by human beings. Yet, everyone who believes in a god of some sort believes their god is real.
Since gods are supernatural, they exist outside the bounds and laws of space and time. They can possess any of an infinite array of magical powers. Hence, there is no way to prove or disprove their reality. One might say: If gods exist, anything goes!
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loco will be around soon enough to tell you about the unbearable suffering that awaits you ;)
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loco will be around soon enough to tell you about the unbearable suffering that awaits you ;)
he can't........ because god will forgive me ;D
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Not loco's god. That's one ANGRY FUCKER!!! He kills little babies for fun!
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Not loco's god. That's one ANGRY FUCKER!!! He kills little babies for fun!
damn........... :-[
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beatmaster and columbusdude82, you guys crack me up. ;D
And God still loves you even after you made fun of Him. I'm praying for you. May God bless and prosper you both!
2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.
Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Have a great weekend! :)
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If he doesn't want anyone to perish, why does his "Son" (also himself) tell his followers to kill those who deny him, in Luke 19:27?
Contradiction? Of course not.........
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If he doesn't want anyone to perish, why does his "Son" (also himself) tell his followers to kill those who deny him, in Luke 19:27?
Contradiction? Of course not.........
No. Jesus did not tell his followers to kill those who deny him. The one who said that was the man in the story that Jesus told.
Luke 19:11-27
The Parable of the Ten Minas
11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a]'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'
14"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'
15"He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.
16"The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'
17" 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'
18"The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.'
19"His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'
20"Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'
22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'
24"Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'
25" 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'
26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."
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Yes, loco, I did go to Catholic school, you know ;)
But to the nutjob out there who wants to use scripture to convince his "sheep" to kill, such contextual concerns won't matter much, will they. I am not criticizing this or that verse, I am criticizing people's eagerness to put their common sense aside and accept the scripture of their religions as unquestioned, unquestionable truth, regardless of misinterpretation, context, etc...
To any person who is raised to believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God, and that their preacher/leader/"prophet" gets instructions directly from the Lord, you can see how your attempt to reason with them won't stop them from going out and killing...
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Yes, loco, I did go to Catholic school, you know ;)
But to the nutjob out there who wants to use scripture to convince his "sheep" to kill, such contextual concerns won't matter much, will they. I am not criticizing this or that verse, I am criticizing people's eagerness to put their common sense aside and accept the scripture of their religions as unquestioned, unquestionable truth, regardless of misinterpretation, context, etc...
To any person who is raised to believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God, and that their preacher/leader/"prophet" gets instructions directly from the Lord, you can see how your attempt to reason with them won't stop them from going out and killing...
Yes, of course the Bible can and has been taken out of context before by nut jobs out there to convince "sheep" to kill, or by evil rulers to control "sheep" in order to obtain wealth and power. I agree. But that doesn't mean that the Bible is bad, or that Christianity is not a faith of peace and love.
The same can be said about nut jobs taking small parts of the US constitution or the Bill of Rights out of context to convince "sheep" to kill, or by evil rulers to control "sheep" in order to obtain wealth and power. It doesn't mean that the US constitution or the Bill of Rights are bad.
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I am not saying the Bible is bad. It's a great book, and I read it a lot, I bet a whole lot more than many of those who claim to live by it...
I am saying the SUSPENSION OF REASON is bad. How many times do I have to say that over and over?
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My question how can you validate or even respect the divinity of someone who orders the death of a nation which would be also ordering the death of it's children.
Again, those men and their leaders were using the "word of God" as their excuse, justification and more importantly as a way out of any moral accountability for what they did.
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My question how can you validate or even respect the divinity of someone who orders the death of a nation which would be also ordering the death of it's children.
Again, those men and their leaders were using the "word of God" as their excuse, justification and more importantly as a way out of any moral accountability for what they did.
Do you mean the bible? I think back then they were being spoken to directly from God.
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Colombusdude, when you posted this:
If he doesn't want anyone to perish, why does his "Son" (also himself) tell his followers to kill those who deny him, in Luke 19:27?
Contradiction? Of course not.........
and then loco showed you what the text states and then you posted this:
Yes, loco, I did go to Catholic school, you know ;)
what did you mean? Were you aware of the context of the text before you posted the first time?
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Do you mean the bible? I think back then they were being spoken to directly from God.
They allegedly were as the writers say, and those same writers explained natural phenomena as a response from God results from the actions of a person or nation.
And if that is the case, that God spoke directly to them i challenge that who ever told them that was not God in the first place, but instead a angry blood thirsty jealous children murdering nut job.
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I meant: yes, I went to Catholic school, I know all the contorted theology and the tortured explanations for all those bizarre Biblical quirks, and was unconvinced by most of them...
STella, let me clarify, since you seem to be asking about my various positions:
I don't believe in God because I don't believe in Allah, Zeus, Poseidon, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, Santa, Jupiter, Adonis, Venus, Mars, Thor, or the Sun Gods... There is no more evidence for the existence of any one of these than there is for the others... The Bible is a great work of fiction, lots of mythology and magic. Lots of bizarre stories and lots of great poetic and eloquent parts to it. But I would no more regard it as "holy" or "divinely insprired" than the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Koran, Pride and Prejudice, or Oliver Twist.
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I meant: yes, I went to Catholic school, I know all the contorted theology and the tortured explanations for all those bizarre Biblical quirks, and was unconvinced by most of them...
So were you saying what you learned in Catholic school taught you Jesus said to kill those who deny Him?
STella, let me clarify, since you seem to be asking about my various positions:
I don't believe in God because I don't believe in Allah, Zeus, Poseidon, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, Santa, Jupiter, Adonis, Venus, Mars, Thor, or the Sun Gods... There is no more evidence for the existence of any one of these than there is for the others... The Bible is a great work of fiction, lots of mythology and magic. Lots of bizarre stories and lots of great poetic and eloquent parts to it. But I would no more regard it as "holy" or "divinely insprired" than the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Koran, Pride and Prejudice, or Oliver Twist.
Thanks columbusdude! I appreciate the explanation :)
Do you believe in evolution theory or do you have another idea?
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Evolution is fact. I "believe" in it same as I "believe" in electricity, gravity, and algebra.
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Evolution is fact. I "believe" in it same as I "believe" in electricity, gravity, and algebra.
He'll be happy to hear that ;D
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I love those people who say they "don't believe in evolution," because it's "just a theory."
Yeah, and gravity is "just a theory" as well, but if they stop believing in gravity, it won't go away, and they won't be able to walk off roof tops without falling...
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Yes, loco, I did go to Catholic school, you know ;)
Then why did you say this?
God may have simply been testing Abraham's faith, but he wanted Jephthah to kill his own daughter for God!!!
That is false.
And why did you later say this?
If he doesn't want anyone to perish, why does his "Son" (also himself) tell his followers to kill those who deny him, in Luke 19:27?
That is false too?
No offence, but you are either ignorant of the Bible, or you are simply lying and hoping that Christians on this board are ignorant of the Bible.
I am saying the SUSPENSION OF REASON is bad. How many times do I have to say that over and over?
I agree. The suspension of reason is bad. However, you said
Here's my problem with "faith." "Faith" demands the suspension of reason. You are told to accept, with no evidence whatsoever, some Iron Age texts (contradictory and bizarre as they may be) as axioms not to be questioned. Reason and common sense are to be suspended.
I disagree. Faith is not the suspension of reason. Faith does not demand the suspension of reason. That, my friend, is nothing but your personal opinion. And that is just fine. You are entitled to your opinion. Let me just point out a few others who disagree with you:
"And the beginning of every logical chain is an act of faith: some unproven axiom, some set of postulates that were chosen because they simply felt true. There’s no getting around this, because logical inference can only draw on what is previously given, either as an axiom or a theorem already proved. To demand that every step in a logical chain depends on an earlier logical proof leads, of course, to an infinite regress." - Malcolm Pollack
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein
"The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being." - Isaac Newton
"Take, for example, molecules. Many grade-school children are able to tell me that a water molecule consists of H2O. Most of these children have not actually seen a molecule broken apart. So, having never seen it, can they truly say it exists and confidently assert what it is made of? I personally cannot. I am forced to admit that I have put my faith in the textbook, and I believe what it tells me about the composition of a water molecule. That, dear reader, is faith in its simplest form. The evidence of things not seen." - Josh Hefner
"if a person can believe in black holes and multiple universes, then it would be no big deal to believe in God" - Dr. Michael Guillen
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Hey Loco,
Concerning the "faith and reason" thing, I hope you don't mind if I keep it for another thread, so this one doesn't get too cluttered with off-topic discussions.
As for those two quotes of mine, I am neither lying nor ignorant of the Bible. I am simply pointing out how bizarre some Biblical stories are, and how the God of the Bible (and his Son) are not the cuddly teddy-bear types that so many Christians out there seem to think they are.
One of the most revolting things in Christendom is the unflinching attitude held by so many, that "God is love," that he loves them unconditionally and wants them to love him and everyone else, and that the whole universe is one big sloppy love-fest...
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? is it ok to talk about Satan or do i go directly in hell without passing go and collecting 200$ ;D
why believe in something wrote by mans, invented by mans, it's a book...... story, c'mon!
damn, i can't believe that some of them believe that the earth is only 6000 years old, fuck the dinosaur and the caveman..... and every proof we have about evolution and yessssssss viva la bible ::)
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Hey Frenchie, it's "men"... the plural of "man" is "men" ;) ;) ;)
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Hey Frenchie, it's "men"... the plural of "man" is "men" ;) ;) ;)
;D
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Would you say that you are the most morally upright person that you know?
Also, re: Jephthah....God did not "want Jephthah to kill his own daughter for God." It was a vow Jephthah made on his own. He killed his daughter all on his own.
AHHHH!!! The old Jephthah story.
If you look at that story closer, it appears that Jephthah didn't really kill his daughter. Remember that his vow was that whatever ran from his house to greet him would be offered to God as a burnt offering.
The first rule of thumb is that you don't offer anything to God, without following His instructions. When it comes to sacrfices, God makes it clear that:
1) Human sacrifice is an absolute no-no, as Loco mentioned earlier, citing the verses in Deuteronomy. God did not want Israel to worship Him the way other folks worship their gods.
2) The book of Leviticus states that burnt offerings had to be animals, usually on a sliding scale (from rich to poor people) of cattle, sheep/goats, or birds.
3) For burnt offerings, the aforementioned animals had to be male.
Based on those three rules, there is no way Jephthah could have sacrificed his daughter with God's approval. And doing such would not have had him mentioned as one of the hallmarks of faith in the book of Hebrews.
Notice that when the daughter learns of what happened, she weeps not for her alleged impending death, but over the fact that she will be a virgin for the rest of her life, something over which she wails for two months with some friends of hers in the mountains.
Why is that important? The account states that Jephthah was an illegitimate child, born of a harlot and cast from his father's home by his half-brothers. Jephthah's wife is presumably dead and this daughter is the only child he has.
She would be his heir; but by Hebrew law, she would have to marry someone within Jephthah's tribe to keep his lineage alive in Israel. Since Jephthah promised to offer whatever greeted him after his victory over Israel's enemies to God and his daughter is the one that greets him, the only way he can keep his vow (given the aforementioned rules of sacrifices) would be to offer her as a temple virgin. That means she never marries, never has any children, and Jephthah's lineage comes to an end.
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AHHHH!!! The old Jephthah story.
If you look at that story closer, it appears that Jephthah didn't really kill his daughter. Remember that his vow was that whatever ran from his house to greet him would be offered to God as a burnt offering.
The first rule of thumb is that you don't offer anything to God, without following His instructions. When it comes to sacrfices, God makes it clear that:
1) Human sacrifice is an absolute no-no, as Loco mentioned earlier, citing the verses in Deuteronomy. God did not want Israel to worship Him the way other folks worship their gods.
2) The book of Leviticus states that burnt offerings had to be animals, usually on a sliding scale (from rich to poor people) of cattle, sheep/goats, or birds.
3) For burnt offerings, the aforementioned animals had to be male.
Based on those three rules, there is no way Jephthah could have sacrificed his daughter with God's approval. And doing such would not have had him mentioned as one of the hallmarks of faith in the book of Hebrews.
Notice that when the daughter learns of what happened, she weeps not for her alleged impending death, but over the fact that she will be a virgin for the rest of her life, something over which she wails for two months with some friends of hers in the mountains.
Why is that important? The account states that Jephthah was an illegitimate child, born of a harlot and cast from his father's home by his half-brothers. Jephthah's wife is presumably dead and this daughter is the only child he has.
She would be his heir; but by Hebrew law, she would have to marry someone within Jephthah's tribe to keep his lineage alive in Israel. Since Jephthah promised to offer whatever greeted him after his victory over Israel's enemies to God and his daughter is the one that greets him, the only way he can keep his vow (given the aforementioned rules of sacrifices) would be to offer her as a temple virgin. That means she never marries, never has any children, and Jephthah's lineage comes to an end.
Another great post! Thanks, MCWAY! ;D
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? is it ok to talk about Satan or do i go directly in hell without passing go and collecting 200$ ;D
why believe in something wrote by mans, invented by mans, it's a book...... story, c'mon!
damn, i can't believe that some of them believe that the earth is only 6000 years old, fuck the dinosaur and the caveman..... and every proof we have about evolution and yessssssss viva la bible ::)
Dinosaurs may be tipping the scale in favor of a young earth, especially in light of recent discoveries, namely soft tissue found in the remnants of a T-rex. The problem with that is soft tissue (by evolutionists' own admittance) can't last for millions of years, the alleged age of that dinosaur, but for a much shorter period of time (read thousands of years).
So, soft tissue found in a dinosaur's remains means one of two things:
1) Soft tissue can last longer than previously thought possible, or...........
2) That dinosaur ain't millions of years old, as previously thought.
As for the caveman, how many foul-ups, bleeps, and blunders have we seen with that one?
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Dinosaurs may be tipping the scale in favor of a young earth, especially in light of recent discoveries, namely soft tissue found in the remnants of a T-rex. The problem with that is soft tissue (by evolutionists' own admittance) can't last for millions of years, the alleged age of that dinosaur, but for a much shorter period of time (read thousands of years).
So, soft tissue found in a dinosaur's remains means one of two things:
1) Soft tissue can last longer than previously thought possible, or...........
2) That dinosaur ain't millions of years old, as previously thought.
As for the caveman, how many foul-ups, bleeps, and blunders have we seen with that one?
Scientists recover T. rex soft tissue
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7285683/
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/0325Dino_tissue.asp
"Will they now be convinced?
Unfortunately, the long-age paradigm is so dominant that facts alone will not readily overturn it. As philosopher of science Thomas Kuhn pointed out,5 what generally happens when a discovery contradicts a paradigm is that the paradigm is not discarded but modified, usually by making secondary assumptions, to accommodate the new evidence.
That’s just what appears to have happened in this case. When Schweitzer first found what appeared to be blood cells in a T. Rex specimen, she said, “It was exactly like looking at a slice of modern bone. But, of course, I couldn’t believe it. I said to the lab technician: “The bones, after all, are 65 million years old. How could blood cells survive that long?’”6 Notice that her first reaction was to question the evidence, not the paradigm. That is in a way quite understandable and human, and is how science works in reality (though when creationists do that, it’s caricatured as non-scientific)."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/03/0324_050324_trexsofttissue.html
"Finding these tissues in dinosaurs changes the way we think about fossilization, because our theories of how fossils are preserved don't allow for this [soft-tissue preservation]," Schweitzer said
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THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR KILLING CHILDREN.
I have friends who have shrapnel in there legs and sides because of children, and they have friends that got shipped home in boxes because of these children...
if you really think that children cannot be evil, and don't learn from there parents early in there life you are an idiot. most behavior is picked up early in the early stages of a persons life, anyone who is educated will tell you this. why do you think things like breast feeding have such a big impact on a persons life?
and if nothing else this book of stories has allot of things that we can and should follow even if you don't believe in God. think of how many lives would be saved if we fallowed the basic rules put out for us? we would have no std's, we would have no racism, no hate crimes, little to no poverty. You ever hear the phrase "common courtesy is a rare thing"? look at the people who believe even a little bit compared to the people who don't and tell me who does more good for this world. really think about it, what helps a community more then the church? and not every story in the Bible may apply to our lives, but you may forget that not all is in the same position as us, ever think of that?
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Dinosaurs may be tipping the scale in favor of a young earth, especially in light of recent discoveries, namely soft tissue found in the remnants of a T-rex.
Scientists recover T. rex soft tissue
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7285683/
Thanks I don't think I'd heard about this!
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I have friends who have shrapnel in there legs and sides because of children, and they have friends that got shipped home in boxes because of these children...
if you really think that children cannot be evil, and don't learn from there parents early in there life you are an idiot. most behavior is picked up early in the early stages of a persons life, anyone who is educated will tell you this. why do you think things like breast feeding have such a big impact on a persons life?
Sorry for your friends................. ...it doesn't change the fact that there is no justification for killing children regardless of what they do. THAT'S WHAT CIVILIZED COUNTRIES AND CIVILIZED PEOPLE DO WITH CHILDREN WHO DO BAD THINGS.....like the United States of America and most of civilized world. (not garden variety religious idiots who think killing children is ok as long it's justified as gods orders)
and if nothing else this book of stories has allot of things that we can and should follow even if you don't believe in God. think of how many lives would be saved if we fallowed the basic rules put out for us? we would have no std's, we would have no racism, no hate crimes, little to no poverty. You ever hear the phrase "common courtesy is a rare thing"? look at the people who believe even a little bit compared to the people who don't and tell me who does more good for this world. really think about it, what helps a community more then the church? and not every story in the Bible may apply to our lives, but you may forget that not all is in the same position as us, ever think of that?
Yeah and in following the many examples in the Bible we shall buy and sell children slaves, kill whole nations including children, slaughter people for deciding to worship God in a certain way, nearly kill our on sons and offer up our virgin daughters to an angry horny mob.....all from the book of stories.
I agree the Bible is filled with much wisdom and if we follow that wisdom, the same wisdom you find in other religions we'd have a better world, but it falls very short of doing that as it is also filled with the writings of man and the culture of the times, it is not 100% the everlasting word of GOD
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any of them would have been flattered to know David chopped the tips of 200 Philistine wieners, not a fun task I'm sure, for a woman.
Oh I don't know... sometimes when I read Get Big, I sometimes think hey, ...that might be fun. :P carry on
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Sorry for your friends................. ...it doesn't change the fact that there is no justification for killing children regardless of what they do. THAT'S WHAT CIVILIZED COUNTRIES AND CIVILIZED PEOPLE DO WITH CHILDREN WHO DO BAD THINGS.....like the United States of America and most of civilized world. (not garden variety religious idiots who think killing children is ok as long it's justified as gods orders)
Yeah and in following the many examples in the Bible we shall buy and sell children slaves, kill whole nations including children, slaughter people for deciding to worship God in a certain way, nearly kill our on sons and offer up our virgin daughters to an angry horny mob.....all from the book of stories.
I agree the Bible is filled with much wisdom and if we follow that wisdom, the same wisdom you find in other religions we'd have a better world, but it falls very short of doing that as it is also filled with the writings of man and the culture of the times, it is not 100% the everlasting word of GOD
you don't get it much do you, the nations God ordered to be killed were wicked. worse then the taliban training camps we see over here. when the men are killed the women will raise the children to be like there fathers, when both parents are killed the children will carry on there parents hatred. we weren't there, so we will never know, but trust me man, i have seen some evil children and women, and i don't see half the shit my buddies do.
secondly i can respect that with most religions if people actually did what was written then the world would be a far better place. but considering God, Allah, and Jawey(sp?) are all based on the same being i would think they would be close. we just believe in different prophets for the most part, and a few different rules. and from what you are mostly attacking us on is the old testament, this is what the Jews fallow, there is a new testament where a few things changed that we Christians fallow. and you right there is allot of things in the old testament rules that i just don't get. i mean i wear mixed clothes all the time and i don't think i am going to hell for it. but remember the Bible is Gods word interpreted by man, I'm sure there might be a few things that got mixed over the years. and where is it that God tells us to give virgins to an angry horney mob??
but i have another question for you, why do you feel such a need to attack the people who believe what you do not? I'm not an extremist that plans on killing you for having sex before being married, or cheating on your taxes, or being gay. i just wanna show people my beliefs, if you don't want to listen then thats you, if you feel called to it then feel free to join, church is on sunday we would love to have you.
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you don't get it much do you, the nations God ordered to be killed were wicked. worse then the taliban training camps we see over here. when the men are killed the women will raise the children to be like there fathers, when both parents are killed the children will carry on there parents hatred. we weren't there, so we will never know, but trust me man, i have seen some evil children and women, and i don't see half the shit my buddies do.
That's part of the whole "outrage" routine, done by folks who don't dig Scripture. They act as if the Amalekites, Hittites, and the other "-ites" were a bunch of boy scouts, singing "Kum-ba-Yah" and holding hands, when mean old Jehovah and His Israelites just hit the scene and start whacking people, simply because they can.
secondly i can respect that with most religions if people actually did what was written then the world would be a far better place. but considering God, Allah, and Jawey(sp?) are all based on the same being i would think they would be close. we just believe in different prophets for the most part, and a few different rules. and from what you are mostly attacking us on is the old testament, this is what the Jews fallow, there is a new testament where a few things changed that we Christians fallow. and you right there is allot of things in the old testament rules that i just don't get. i mean i wear mixed clothes all the time and i don't think i am going to hell for it. but remember the Bible is Gods word interpreted by man, I'm sure there might be a few things that got mixed over the years. and where is it that God tells us to give virgins to an angry horney mob??
but i have another question for you, why do you feel such a need to attack the people who believe what you do not? I'm not an extremist that plans on killing you for having sex before being married, or cheating on your taxes, or being gay. i just wanna show people my beliefs, if you don't want to listen then thats you, if you feel called to it then feel free to join, church is on sunday we would love to have you.
The "horny mob" take refers to the Sodom and Gommorah account, involving Lot. Lot has two visitors, sent from the Lord to warn him of the cities' impending destruction and that he and his family need to pack up and leave. Some of S&G's gay contigent see the visitors and demand that Lot bring them out, so they can do the Brokeback with them. In cowardly haste, Lot offers his daughters to the mob, rather than have them mess with God's messengers. Suffice it to say, this was certainly NOT an order from the Almighty.
As for the clothes-of-mixed-fabric thing, that may be more of a cultural item, than anything else. Take the redeemer clause, regarding marriage. If you're single and your married brother dies without having any kids, you wouldn't be expected to marry your brother's widow and produce a child, who would be credited as that of your brother. Violations of such laws are hardly have such dire consequences, such as a trip to the lake of fire.
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you don't get it much do you, the nations God ordered to be killed were wicked. worse then the taliban training camps we see over here. when the men are killed the women will raise the children to be like there fathers, when both parents are killed the children will carry on there parents hatred. we weren't there, so we will never know, but trust me man, i have seen some evil children and women, and i don't see half the shit my buddies do.
So children are now guilty before they become guilty and therefore it's justified they should die?
Yeah that makes alot of sense..... ::)
Is that how the nazis justified there actions when they smashed a baby's head against a brick wall? What do you think those men in the Bible did? Give them an overdose of sleeping pills?
secondly i can respect that with most religions if people actually did what was written then the world would be a far better place. but considering God, Allah, and Jawey(sp?) are all based on the same being i would think they would be close. we just believe in different prophets for the most part, and a few different rules. and from what you are mostly attacking us on is the old testament, this is what the Jews fallow, there is a new testament where a few things changed that we Christians fallow. and you right there is allot of things in the old testament rules that i just don't get. i mean i wear mixed clothes all the time and i don't think i am going to hell for it. but remember the Bible is Gods word interpreted by man, I'm sure there might be a few things that got mixed over the years. and where is it that God tells us to give virgins to an angry horney mob??
You haven't read the OT much have you? Yet you profess to be a Christian and the Bible is the 100% Word of God? This is how you "FALLOW" (sp=follow ;)) your religion? The Bible is the word of man which is a book that's believed by some to "every word of GOD" and if GOD ordered the killing of children i have no doubt it's instead the word of man who has justified it's atrocious actions using GOD. If you want to know about the daughters read Sodom and Lot.
but i have another question for you, why do you feel such a need to attack the people who believe what you do not? I'm not an extremist that plans on killing you for having sex before being married, or cheating on your taxes, or being gay. i just wanna show people my beliefs, if you don't want to listen then thats you, if you feel called to it then feel free to join, church is on sunday we would love to have you.
I'm not attacking anything, just showing you the perverseness of thinking there is any justification on killing children and you in your "great wisdom" ::) just liken that justification to killing children in Taliban training camps.
Do you feel it's ok to kill children if they were being raised in a Taliban training camp? So it's justified to kill a 2 year old girl?
Because if you do, i am attacking you now. you are pathetic and EVIL. You are a candidate for a nazi youth camp and you need serious counseling.
Are you gonna be the one who shoots a 2 year old girl and watches her die and her mother scream in agony....will you feel you are doing the work of GOD? Pathetic.
If you really don't think that you might want to re-think your argument for killing children although there is none.
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That's part of the whole "outrage" routine, done by folks who don't dig Scripture. They act as if the Amalekites, Hittites, and the other "-ites" were a bunch of boy scouts, singing "Kum-ba-Yah" and holding hands, when mean old Jehovah and His Israelites just hit the scene and start whacking people, simply because they can.
We aren't talking the EVIL that existed in in those civilizations. We are talking about children. Not teenagers or children that have reached the age of accountability. We are talking about 2 years girls, 5 year old boys who undoubtedly were slaughtered under the sword int he name of GOD and people today that still think "GOD" ordered that. That's no GOD but instead man using GOD as justification for his actions.
The "horny mob" take refers to the Sodom and Gommorah account, involving Lot. Lot has two visitors, sent from the Lord to warn him of the cities' impending destruction and that he and his family need to pack up and leave. Some of S&G's gay contigent see the visitors and demand that Lot bring them out, so they can do the Brokeback with them. In cowardly haste, Lot offers his daughters to the mob, rather than have them mess with God's messengers. Suffice it to say, this was certainly NOT an order from the Almighty.
It's not. But the messengers, writers or GOD do nothing to address this action which indirectly devalues and trivializes the sanctity of a daughter and her virginity.....and this is the word of GOD. ::)
As for the clothes-of-mixed-fabric thing, that may be more of a cultural item, than anything else. Take the redeemer clause, regarding marriage. If you're single and your married brother dies without having any kids, you wouldn't be expected to marry your brother's widow and produce a child, who would be credited as that of your brother. Violations of such laws are hardly have such dire consequences, such as a trip to the lake of fire.
Cultural? It's pretty direct in the OT when it's said for women never to dress as men. But most Christians just wave that off as being directed to jews at the time.
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Which is closest to your attitude toward the bible?
(by Charles C. Ryrie)
Rationalism: a. Extreme form denies the possibility of any supernatural revelation. b. Moderate form admits possibility of divine revelation, but human mind is final judge of revelation.
Romanism: Bible is the product of the church; therefore, the Bible is not the sole or final authority.
Mysticism: Experience is authoritative along w/the Bible.
Neo-orthodoxy: The Bible is a fallible witness to the revelation of God in the Word, Christ.
Cults: The Bible and the writings of the particular cult's leader are equally authoritative.
Orthodoxy: The Bible is the ground of authority.
the old test is the written version of the oral history of the jews...
the new test is a cult's brainwashing material
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no i think we should kill all the adults and older children then leave the 2 year olds ::)
there is arguements for evething, you have fun finding all of them.
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O R T H O D O X Presbyterian
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no i think we should kill all the adults and older children then leave the 2 year olds ::)
there is arguements for evething, you have fun finding all of them.
Yeah, and you have fun hiding you heart and good sense in the cloak of ignorant righteousness.
Is that the best you can do "overcome"? Just past killing innocent children off like that? Another example of a low level blunt instrument that is manipulated by those in power. Not to worry, fanatics are always needed whether they are blind Christian Warriors or Islamic suicide bombers. They are both the same. There's a place for you in this world and you are fitting right into your chosen spot.
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I can't believe people in 2007 are still bickering and arguing over the tiresome squabbles of Stone Age middle-eastern tribes, and still claiming "God" on this side or that...
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tell me what your plan would be for that situation then? if there soldiers are dead but the women and older children pick up arms against you and all that is left is children to young to take care of themselves?
and I'm not trying to say this is what God wants or saying its justified by the bible, I'm telling you a real life situation. since your so righteous why don't you tell me what should be done.
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tell me what your plan would be for that situation then? if there soldiers are dead but the women and older children pick up arms against you and all that is left is children to young to take care of themselves?
and I'm not trying to say this is what God wants or saying its justified by the bible, I'm telling you a real life situation. since your so righteous why don't you tell me what should be done.
OMG. How dense, barbaric and insensitive to children does the call of the righteous make us?
Have you ever heard of the concept of innocent until guilty?
You don't kill someone because of what they might do a month from now or 10 years from now.
You don't kill children becuase:
all that is left is children to young to take care of themselves?
Should we have killed every Nazi born child after WW2? Every Japanese born child?
what's next, overcome? do we kill all the inner city children in America becuase they will all end up drug dealers and thugs?
If you can't see the EVIL in your thinking there isn't much use in explaining much of anything to you like orphanages, aid programs etc...
since your so righteous why don't you tell me what should be done.
there's no point in telling a person like you what should be done if you don't even get the simple concept of WHAT SHOULDN'T BE DONE TO BEGIN WITH
THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR KILLING CHILDREN
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OMG. How dense, barbaric and insensitive to children does the call of the righteous make us?
Have you ever heard of the concept of innocent until guilty?
You don't kill someone because of what they might do a month from now or 10 years from now.
You don't kill children becuase:
Should we have killed every Nazi born child after WW2? Every Japanese born child?
what's next, overcome? do we kill all the inner city children in America becuase they will all end up drug dealers and thugs?
If you can't see the EVIL in your thinking there isn't much use in explaining much of anything to you like orphanages, aid programs etc...
there's no point in telling a person like you what should be done if you don't even get the simple concept of WHAT SHOULDN'T BE DONE TO BEGIN WITH
THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR KILLING CHILDREN
OzmO,
overcome said
and I'm not trying to say this is what God wants or saying its justified by the bible, I'm telling you a real life situation. since your so righteous why don't you tell me what should be done.
OzmO,
There was no Red Cross, no United Nations, no social workers, no orphanages.
Really, what would have been the righteous thing to do in your opinion, to leave the infants behind to die of thirst, hunger, or to be eaten by wild beasts? What would you have done? Just curious.
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OzmO,
overcome said
OzmO,
There was no Red Cross, no United Nations, no social workers, no orphanages.
Really, what would have been the righteous thing to do in your opinion, to leave the infants behind to die of thirst, hunger, or to be eaten by wild beasts? What would you have done? Just curious.
So because you or overcome can't see what to do you justify killing children?
OMG.... ::)
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You Bible-thumping Nutjobs are proving Voltaire correct:
If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.
The absurdity is to think that the creator of the universe of hundreds of billions of billions of stars and planets chose one small tribe (out of many) of one species (out of tens of millions) of living things on one tiny speck of a planet orbiting a little star, and gave them the right to commit murder and genocide against other tribes...
The atrocity is not just those events (if they ever really occurred), but also the cold-hearted callousness with which people many centuries later justify the slaughter of children...
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So because you or overcome can't see what to do you justify killing children?
OMG.... ::)
In other words...you don't know. It's okay. Many people jump at the opportunity to attack the Bible without knowing all the facts and without giving it much thought.
So you do justify leaving infants behind to die slow, painful deaths.
OzmO,
I suggest you read the whole story, which covers several books of the Bible. For hundreds of years, generations of the Amalekites attacked, raided and killed Israel unprovoked. Israel did not fight back at first. These wicked people were also oppressive to other nations around them.
During all those years, the women and infants had the choice and the opportunity to leave their people and join the Israelites. By God's law, the Israelites had to accept them and treat them well, even though those same wicked people had just spent years killing Israelites. So, the blood of those infants is not on God or on the Israelites' heads. The blood of those infants is on their own parents' head.
God did not say to Israel to exterminate everyone who attacked them. God did not tell Israel to kill the children of all enemies of Israel. God commanded Israel to kill specific, wicked nations, by name. So God does not justify the killing of children. Again, God gave the parents the opportunity to have their women and children join the Israelites and be spared, but they fought to their deaths and decided to take their children down with them.
By the way. About that lady in the US who had her feeding tube removed because her husband wished it and because a judge ordered it, and the lady died. Not only did she die, but she died a slow, painful death. You justify that?
So, is her blood on the judge's head, on the doctor's/nurse's head, or on her husband's head?
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loco, an autopsy proved that the woman in question (Terry Schiavo) had long been brain dead, so she couldn't have felt any pain.
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In other words...you don't know. It's okay. Many people jump at the opportunity to attack the Bible without knowing all the facts and without giving it much thought.
So you do justify leaving infants behind to die slow, painful deaths.
OzmO,
I suggest you read the whole story, which covers several books of the Bible. For hundreds of years, generations of the Amalekites attacked, raided and killed Israel unprovoked. Israel did not fight back at first. These wicked people were also oppressive to other nations around them.
During all those years, the women and infants had the choice and the opportunity to leave their people and join the Israelites. By God's law, the Israelites had to accept them and treat them well, even though those same wicked people had just spent years killing Israelites. So, the blood of those infants is not on God or on the Israelites' heads. The blood of those infants is on their own parents' head.
God did not say to Israel to exterminate everyone who attacked them. God did not tell Israel to kill the children of all enemies of Israel. God commanded Israel to kill specific, wicked nations, by name. So God does not justify the killing of children. Again, God gave the parents the opportunity to have their women and children join the Israelites and be spared, but they fought to their deaths and decided to take their children down with them.
By the way. About that lady in the US who had her feeding tube removed because her husband wished it and a judged ordered, the lady die. No only did she died, but shed died a slow, painful death. You justify that?
So, is her blood on the judge's head, on the doctor's/nurse's head, or on her husband's head?
In other words i do know.
I'm just trying to see if you and overcome can see past yourselves.
If you don;t think there is an answer to deal with the children then you aren't opening your eyes or once again acting dumb for the sake of a debate.
And Again................you can try and justify killing children ALL you want but in the end:
THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR KILLING CHILDREN
AND ANYONE THAT THINKS THERE IS, IS EVIL.
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In other words i do know.
I'm just trying to see if you and overcome can see past yourselves.
If you don;t think there is an answer to deal with the children then you aren't opening your eyes or once again acting dumb for the sake of a debate.
And Again................you can try and justify killing children ALL you want but in the end:
THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR KILLING CHILDREN
AND ANYONE THAT THINKS THERE IS, IS EVIL.
In other words...you don't know. It's okay. Many people jump at the opportunity to attack the Bible without knowing all the facts and without giving it much thought.
So you do justify leaving infants behind to die slow, painful deaths.
OzmO,
I suggest you read the whole story, which covers several books of the Bible. For hundreds of years, generations of the Amalekites attacked, raided and killed Israel unprovoked. Israel did not fight back at first. These wicked people were also oppressive to other nations around them.
During all those years, the women and infants had the choice and the opportunity to leave their people and join the Israelites. By God's law, the Israelites had to accept them and treat them well, even though those same wicked people had just spent years killing Israelites. So, the blood of those infants is not on God or on the Israelites' heads. The blood of those infants is on their own parents' head.
God did not say to Israel to exterminate everyone who attacked them. God did not tell Israel to kill the children of all enemies of Israel. God commanded Israel to kill specific, wicked nations, by name. So God does not justify the killing of children. Again, God gave the parents the opportunity to have their women and children join the Israelites and be spared, but they fought to their deaths and decided to take their children down with them.
By the way. About that lady in the US who had her feeding tube removed because her husband wished it and because a judge ordered it, and the lady died. Not only did she die, but she died a slow, painful death. You justify that?
So, is her blood on the judge's head, on the doctor's/nurse's head, or on her husband's head?
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loco, an autopsy proved that the woman in question (Terry Schiavo) had long been brain dead, so she couldn't have felt any pain.
So they did not know until they had already killed her?
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In other words...you don't know. It's okay. Many people jump at the opportunity to attack the Bible without knowing all the facts and without giving it much thought.
So you do justify leaving infants behind to die slow, painful deaths.
OzmO,
I suggest you read the whole story, which covers several books of the Bible. For hundreds of years, generations of the Amalekites attacked, raided and killed Israel unprovoked. Israel did not fight back at first. These wicked people were also oppressive to other nations around them.
During all those years, the women and infants had the choice and the opportunity to leave their people and join the Israelites. By God's law, the Israelites had to accept them and treat them well, even though those same wicked people had just spent years killing Israelites. So, the blood of those infants is not on God or on the Israelites' heads. The blood of those infants is on their own parents' head.
God did not say to Israel to exterminate everyone who attacked them. God did not tell Israel to kill the children of all enemies of Israel. God commanded Israel to kill specific, wicked nations, by name. So God does not justify the killing of children. Again, God gave the parents the opportunity to have their women and children join the Israelites and be spared, but they fought to their deaths and decided to take their children down with them.
By the way. About that lady in the US who had her feeding tube removed because her husband wished it and because a judge ordered it, and the lady died. Not only did she die, but she died a slow, painful death. You justify that?
So, is her blood on the judge's head, on the doctor's/nurse's head, or on her husband's head?
Oh brother......
In Biblical times, you have the children adopted into existing families. You murdered their parents and now you have a responsibility to take of the children. But you'd rather they die wouldn't you?
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And if God was so Omnipresent he'd just make them vanish but instead he tells a person like you to stab a 3 year boy with a spear.
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
The Bible is the full of crap.
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Oh brother......
In Biblical times, you have the children adopted into existing families. You murdered their parents and now you have a responsibility to take of the children. But you'd rather they die wouldn't you?
So you are saying that the righteous thing to do was for the Israelites to adopt all the children 2 and under?
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THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR KILLING CHILDREN
What about mercy killing--refugees that kill their own small children to keep them from being tortured, enslaved, mutilated, and/or then killed horribly by their tormentors?
What about the labor room, where either the mother or the baby may live, but not both?
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And if God was so Omnipresent he'd just make them vanish but instead he tells a person like you to stab a 3 year boy with a spear.
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
The Bible is the full of crap.
Yes, and while He is at it, why not make all bad people vanish right now?
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So you are saying that the righteous thing to do was for the Israelites to adopt all the children 2 and under?
The correct thing to do would have been to NOT slaughter an entire nation and If in doing so to take care of the innocent children ages 0-16 you left without parents. Or if even 16 was considered adult then, then all of a lesser age.
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Yes, and while He is at it, why not make all bad people vanish right now?
So instead he gets people like you to stick a metal spear in the stomach of a 3 year boy while his guts spill out and people like you say:
Praise the the Lord?
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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The correct thing to do would have been to NOT slaughter an entire nation and If in doing so to take care of the innocent children ages 0-16 you left without parents. Or if even 16 was considered adult then, then all of a lesser age.
And who would you slaughter and who would you not? Who lives and who dies? How do you separate them?
0-16? You believe hundreds of teenagers are not going to grow up to avenge their parents?
You don't believe teenagers are by then as wicked as their parents? Remember, many generations of them, over a period of hundreds of years committed wickedness against Israel and surrounding nations.
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So instead he gets people like you to stick a metal spear in the stomach of a 3 year boy while his guts spill out and people like you say:
Praise the the Lord?
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Attacking me and my faith, and acting hateful toward me does not make your arguments any better or any stronger.
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And who would you slaughter and who would you not? Who lives and who dies? How do you separate them?
0-16? You don't believe hundreds of teenagers are not going to grow up to avenge their parents?
You don't believe teenagers are by then as wicked as their parents? Remember, many generations of them, over a period of hundreds of years committed wickedness against Israel and surrounding nations.
I don't believe in killing someone for something they might end up doing when they grow up.
Obviously you do.
How about this loco, based on your beliefs, how about following the example of the bible and go and find children in some inner city ghetto and kill them now. they are sure to be drug dealers who kill for money aren't they? ::) ::) ::) ::)
And who to slaughter and who not to? did they kill every last Germen in WW2? OMG...... you are either really no very bright or willing to sacrifice your intelligence just to try and win a point in a debate.
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Attacking me and my faith, and acting hateful toward me does not make your arguments any better or any stronger.
Way to dodge the issue again. ::)
YOUR FAITH justifies killing children.
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I don't believe in killing someone for something they might end up doing when they grow up.
Obviously you do.
Sure, OzmO. Whatever you say. ::)
How about this loco, based on your beliefs, how about following the example of the bible and go and find children in some inner city ghetto and kill them now. they are sure to be drug dealers who kill for money aren't they? ::) ::) ::) ::)
Based on my beliefs, I would never do that because, not only do I not want to, but God has not commanded me to do so in the Bible. So, by you own logic, I am being very obedient to God's word by not doing what you just asked me to do.
What a wonderful analogy. ::)
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Way to dodge the issue again. ::)
YOUR FAITH justifies killing children.
Yeah, okay. ::)
So according to OzmO, all Jews and Christians are child killers. ::)
When you start discussing the debate like an adult again, we will continue this.
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Sure, OzmO. Whatever you say. ::)
You are the one justifying killing children not me.
Based on my beliefs, I would never do that because, not only do I not want to, but God has not commanded me to do so in the Bible. So, by you own logic, I am being very obedient to God's word by not doing what you just asked me to do.
What a wonderful analogy. Roll Eyes
But if God told you, you would. right? You'd stick that spear in the little boys gut wouldn't you? ::)
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Yeah, okay. ::)
So according to OzmO, all Jews and Christians are child killers. ::)
When you start discussing the debate like an adult again, we will continue this.
Now you are putting words in my mouth. Did i say all Christians and Jews were child killers? ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Your faith JUSTIFIES KILLING CHILDREN. Is that not what you and i have been talking about this morning the Divine legitimacy of the Bible story of God telling his people to kill children?
When you start discussing the debate like an adult again, we will continue this.
VERY Classic thing with you loco. When it starts getting real you cry foul and run.
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So they did not know until they had already killed her?
They didn't kill her. They just stopped artificially forcing nutrients into her blood... she was already dead.
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Not to sidetrack and you may have answered this before OzmO but I forgot if you did:
Are you Pro-Choice?
I would also be interested in columbusdude's answer to this. Thanks
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I am for allowing abortion in cases of incest, rape, of when the mother's life is in danger.
I am against allowing abortion after the first few weeks, say. I am definitely against it after the fetus develops a nervous system, because then it will experience pain...
As for the few weeks, I am not sure. Mother Nature herself doesn't seem "pro-life," given how many pregnancies she terminates.
I am for educating people, teaching them to use contraception properly, and if unwanted pregnancies occur, to make sure they are fully aware of their other options, such as adoption.
Abortion is always a regrettable thing.
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Not to sidetrack and you may have answered this before OzmO but I forgot if you did:
Are you Pro-Choice?
I would also be interested in columbusdude's answer to this. Thanks
I am against abortion. I would never support an abortion of a baby i conceived and i would and have strongly encouraged anyone who is thinking of having an abortion not to do it.
However, because of the issues resulting from illegal abortion, i am pro-choice and believe Women can make their own choice and in turn take up it with God and as a result will be accountable for committing murder.
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Killing children.
Obviously there has been some heated debate regarding this issue. We can all agree that In the Bible when God orders the killing of an entire nation of people he is also ordering the killing of Children which also includes the killing of elderly men and women, infants, todlers, mentally disabled, para and quadriplegics etc...
Some of the arguments for this have been:
from overcome:
I have friends who have shrapnel in there legs and sides because of children, and they have friends that got shipped home in boxes because of these children...
if you really think that children cannot be evil, and don't learn from there parents early in there life you are an idiot. most behavior is picked up early in the early stages of a persons life, anyone who is educated will tell you this. why do you think things like breast feeding have such a big impact on a persons life?
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you don't get it much do you, the nations God ordered to be killed were wicked. worse then the taliban training camps we see over here. when the men are killed the women will raise the children to be like there fathers, when both parents are killed the children will carry on there parents hatred. we weren't there, so we will never know, but trust me man, i have seen some evil children and women, and i don't see half the shit my buddies do
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tell me what your plan would be for that situation then? if there soldiers are dead but the women and older children pick up arms against you and all that is left is children to young to take care of themselves?
and I'm not trying to say this is what God wants or saying its justified by the bible, I'm telling you a real life situation. since your so righteous why don't you tell me what should be done.
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no i think we should kill all the adults and older children then leave the 2 year olds Roll Eyes
there is arguements for evething, you have fun finding all of them.
from loco:
There was no Red Cross, no United Nations, no social workers, no orphanages.
Really, what would have been the righteous thing to do in your opinion, to leave the infants behind to die of thirst, hunger, or to be eaten by wild beasts? What would you have done? Just curious.
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In other words...you don't know. It's okay. Many people jump at the opportunity to attack the Bible without knowing all the facts and without giving it much thought.
So you do justify leaving infants behind to die slow, painful deaths.
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So you are saying that the righteous thing to do was for the Israelites to adopt all the children 2 and under?
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What about mercy killing--refugees that kill their own small children to keep them from being tortured, enslaved, mutilated, and/or then killed horribly by their tormentors?
What about the labor room, where either the mother or the baby may live, but not both?
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And who would you slaughter and who would you not? Who lives and who dies? How do you separate them?
0-16? You believe hundreds of teenagers are not going to grow up to avenge their parents?
You don't believe teenagers are by then as wicked as their parents? Remember, many generations of them, over a period of hundreds of years committed wickedness against Israel and surrounding nations.
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Attacking me and my faith, and acting hateful toward me does not make your arguments any better or any stronger.
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Yeah, okay. Roll Eyes
So according to OzmO, all Jews and Christians are child killers. Roll Eyes
When you start discussing the debate like an adult again, we will continue this.
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I'm going to say it again.
There is no justification for killing children.
The arguments presented above are absurd.
Becuase there is no Red Cross, United nations etc.. the children get a spear in their gut?
Becuase we don't have a place for the children (which in fact is far from true) the children get a spear in their gut?
Because we have friends who have shrapnel in their legs other children get a spear in their gut?
Becuase we MIGHT have hundreds of teenagers wanting to avenge their parents the children get a spear in their gut? (this sounds like the mafia)
Frankly, I am disgusted that anyone who justify the killing of children and if this is what it means to be a Christian, supporting the "Word of God" in the Bible, the parts where he orders the killing of children, I want no part of it.
The good thing is that there are some level headed Christians who realize the source of the OT and put it in it's proper perspective understanding the OT is more History than the WOG.
This is a passionate point for me because i do have Children and will not sacrifice my soul with a dismissal of a child's unneeded barbaric murder justified as the Word of God.
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I'm going to say it again.
There is no justification for killing children.
Ozmo, let's put it in words the Bible-thumpers can understand...
Whatever happened to: "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" ???
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Ozmo, let's put it in words the Bible-thumpers can understand...
Whatever happened to: "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" ???
Here's the explanation as I've understood it on this forum:
If God orders the killing it's ok because he created the life to begin with.
In other words, God, has no moral accountability as the creator and it is never in question that the men who did the killing on God's order actually did get orders from God. It's just assumed.
Unbelievable the way we can justify aristocracies isn't?
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Yes, Ozmo. Once again, as Voltaire said,
If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.
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They didn't kill her. They just stopped artificially forcing nutrients into her blood... she was already dead.
::)
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Yes, Ozmo. Once again, as Voltaire said,
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities."
I actually agree with this. That is a great quote. But I neither believe absurdities, nor do I commit atrocities.
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I'm going to say it again.
There is no justification for killing children.
So, No, you DON'T believe that there is any justification for killing children. Absolutely no, under no circumstances, no exceptions.
However, because of the issues resulting from illegal abortion, i am pro-choice
So, YES, you DO believe that the killing of babies is justified.
There is no justification for killing children.
So, No, you DON'T believe that there is any justification for killing children. Absolutely no, under no circumstances, no exceptions.
The correct thing to do would have been to NOT slaughter an entire nation and If in doing so to take care of the innocent children ages 0-16 you left without parents. Or if even 16 was considered adult then, then all of a lesser age.
I see you changed your quote. Change your mind?. First you said that you would kill everyone 17 and older. Then you went back and changed it.
So, YES, you DO justify the killing of children.
Ozmo, let's put it in words the Bible-thumpers can understand...
Whatever happened to: "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" ???
So, No, you DON'T believe that there is any justification for killing children. Absolutely no, under no circumstances, no exceptions.
I am for allowing abortion in cases of incest, rape, of when the mother's life is in danger.
So, YES, you DO justify the killing of children.
OzmO and columbusdude82, you guys are being very inconsistent and hypocritical.
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So, No, you DON'T believe that there is any justification for killing children. Absolutely no, under no circumstances, no exceptions.
So, YES, you DO believe that the killing of babies is justified.
I'm more than happy to cut and paste what i said earlier for effect:
I am against abortion. I would never support an abortion of a baby i conceived and i would and have strongly encouraged anyone who is thinking of having an abortion not to do it.
However, because of the issues resulting from illegal abortion, i am pro-choice and believe Women can make their own choice and in turn take up it with God and as a result will be accountable for committing murder.
there are 2 lines of approach:
1. What the law says
2. Your own personal morals
Just becuase the law allows ................"slavery" (like in the Bible) doesn't mean I'm justified by having them. My moral compass is strong enough for me to know it's wrong.
Just as in Abortion. Unfortunately, many women don't see it that way and if there was a law against abortion they would have them done anyway at greater risk to the health fo the mother as well as still killing the baby. Making against the law will NOT stop it.
I see you changed your quote. Change your mind?. First you said that you would kill everyone 17 and older. Then you went back and changed it.
So, YES, you DO justify the killing of children.
No loco, I'm not some idiot who you can put words in my mouth.
Fact is the whole idea of an Evil nation and everyone of them being evil is the typical self righteous catalyst that leads the whole sale slaughter of a people by the Jews in the OT.
You actually think every man and women in that nation is evil simply becuase history book written by the victors says so? ::) Hey i got some land in Florida that blessed by water from the red sea if you are interested.
the correct action concerning an aggressive neighbor would be to do what we did with Germany and Japan in ww2. NOT slaughter the entire nation and use the "lie" that the whole nation is evil. There's no such thing. You mean to tell me a nation of 10,000,000 people are ALL evil? ::) God granted us the ability to think. We should use it as much as possible.
But let's break this down to exactly where it stand loco shall we?
Did God in the Bible order the death of an entire nation and as a result was ordering the death if it's children too?
And are your explanations for that:
1. There was nothing they could have done with the children therefore it was better to kill them becuase we didn't have red cross, united way beck then?
2. They children were surely going to grow to be evil just like there parents there fore might as well start sticking spears in every 3 year old you can find?
BTW very cheesy attempt to show inconsistencies in my statements. And then even more of a cheesy ploy to show I'd justify aborting babies to deflect the issue of GOD in the OT ordering the slaughter of thousands of innocent people.
Is this how you identify GOD? A murderer of babies/children? Because of you believe every word of the Bible as the word of God then, he killed innocent children.....how can this be Christian? ???
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Frankly, I am disgusted that anyone who justify the killing of children and if this is what it means to be a Christian, supporting the "Word of God" in the Bible, the parts where he orders the killing of children, I want no part of it.
This is a passionate point for me because i do have Children and will not sacrifice my soul with a dismissal of a child's unneeded barbaric murder justified as the Word of God.
However, because of the issues resulting from illegal abortion, i am pro-choice
The correct thing to do would have been to NOT slaughter an entire nation and If in doing so to take care of the innocent children ages 0-16 you left without parents. Or if even 16 was considered adult then, then all of a lesser age.
WOW! OzmO, you are so righteous. Jews and Christians can only dream of being as righteous as OzmO. The God of the Bible could only dream of being as righteous and as wise in warfare as OzmO.
Frankly, I am disgusted that anyone who justify the killing of children and if this is what it means to be a Christian, supporting the "Word of God" in the Bible, the parts where he orders the killing of children, I want no part of it.
So? Don't be a part of it. Don't be a Christian. Don't believe the Bible is the word of God. Who is forcing you?
The good thing is that there are some level headed Christians who realize the source of the OT and put it in it's proper perspective understanding the OT is more History than the WOG.
What a contradiction. These are Christians? They must not know the Bible and they must not know anything about Jesus Christ. A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ constantly quoted, taught, and upheld the Old Testament as the Word of God and as The Truth.
Luke 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
Luke 24:44
He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: " 'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes' ?
John 17:17
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
Mark 7:13
Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
Matthew 22:29
Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
Luke 24:32
They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"
Luke 24:45
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
John 5:39
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
Mark 12:26
Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ?
Luke 16:31
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
John 10:35
If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—
John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."
John 5:46
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.
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WOW! OzmO, you are so righteous. Jews and Christians can only dream of being as righteous as OzmO. The God of the Bible could only dream of being as righteous and as wise in warfare as OzmO.
So i don't think it's right to kill children and you are calling a righteous as if that's a bad thing?
Oh brother... ::) Your sarcasm is fun to read loco but it doesn't separate you from the fact that God order the death of children.
YOU CANNOT GET AWAY FROM THAT FACT LOCO NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU TRY AN UNDERMINE OR SHOW FALLACIES IN MY STATEMENTS
Is it a Christian thing to kill children loco?
What a contradiction. This are Christians? They must not know the Bible and they must not know anything about Jesus Christ. A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ constantly quoted, taught, and upheld the Old Testament as the Word of God and as The Truth.
Luke 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
Luke 24:44
He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: " 'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes' ?
John 17:17
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
Mark 7:13
Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
Matthew 22:29
Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
Luke 24:32
They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"
Luke 24:45
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
John 5:39
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
Mark 12:26
Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ?
Luke 16:31
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
John 10:35
If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—
John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."
John 5:46
If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.
Just like I've maintained in all these debates: the Bible is not the 100% Word of God.
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However, because of the issues resulting from illegal abortion, i am pro-choice
OzmO, "because of the issues resulting from illegal abortion", you support abortion. You are supporting the slaughter of babies in this one case. You are saying that in this case, and in this case only, it is justified.
If not, then why are you pro-choice? Why are you not defending the rights of the unborn baby, who is defenseless and is not being allowed to choose?
Whether or not you believe in the Bible, you are being inconsistent and hypocritical.
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Loco, who said that a zygote is a "child"? If God thinks zygotes are "children," or "fully human," why does Mother Nature kill off so many of them, often before the mother realizes they are there?
And if a zygote implants itself outside the uterus (or some other big flaw) in a manner such that continued pregnancy will endanger the mother's life, why can't pregnancy be terminated? Would you rather see a mother of 3 die because of her fourth pregnancy, or terminate the fatal fourth pregnancy and let her live to take care of her children and maybe have some more?
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OzmO, "because of the issues resulting from illegal abortion", you support abortion. You are supporting the slaughter of babies in this one case. You are saying that in this case, and in this case only, it is justified.
If not, then why are you pro-choice? Why are you not defending the rights of the unborn baby, who is defenseless and is not being allowed to choose?
Whether or not you believe in the Bible, you are being inconsistent and hypocritical.
No i do not support abortion, i support the right for a mother to choose and if she chooses to murder her child i believe it's a sin and wrong. Making abortion legal or not has nothing to do with the choices she makes. She will choose regardless of the law.
It's like this loco:
Is it better for people to do the "right" thing becuase it's the law or is it better for people to do the right thing becuase they choose to do so?
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And anyways loco, what does my stance on abortion have to do with the slaughter of a nation of children on allegedly "gods" orders?
Were they all unwanted pregnancies? ;D
YOU CANNOT GET AWAY FROM THAT FACT LOCO NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU TRY AN UNDERMINE OR SHOW FALLACIES IN MY STATEMENTS THAT GOD IN THE OT ORDERED THE DEATH OF INNOCENT CHILDREN
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And anyways loco, what does my stance on abortion have to do with the slaughter of a nation of children on allegedly "gods" orders?
Were they all unwanted pregnancies? ;D
YOU CANNOT GET AWAY FROM THAT FACT LOCO NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU TRY AN UNDERMINE OR SHOW FALLACIES IN MY STATEMENTS THAT GOD IN THE OT ORDERED THE DEATH OF INNOCENT CHILDREN
Nothing. It's just that God's orders to destroy certain wicked nations(yes, including their babies) has been discussed for decades. By the end of the long discussions, once people know and understand all the facts about these nations and about conditions in those ancient times, they all agree that punishing the Amalekites in the way depicted in the Bible was justified in order to end the 300 or so year threat....EXCEPT for the killing of their babies. It all comes down to the babies. And they all, just like you, come to the conclusion that the only other thing left to do was to have Israel adopt all those babies.
So, I just find it ironic that people believe that Israel should have adopted all those babies, in a time when Israel did not have the money, the food, the infrastructure, and the means in general to do so. They already had enough babies, children, elderly, sick and crippled of their own to take care of. Adoption would have meant the slow, painful death of not only the adopted babies of Israel's enemies, but also of Israel's babies and eventually all of Israel. Those were harsh times and Israel did not have the means to bear the burden.
The irony is that in today's world, developed countries do have the money, the food, the infrastructure and the means in general to adopt unwanted babies. Yet, to many pregnant women today, and to the men who support abortion, adoption is not an option, but abortion is.
That's all.
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i dont want to argue with you people any more, this thread is about opinions and a discussion, argueing with someone who is warping what i say like the stupid extreamist who warped Gods word for crusades and the kuran for the current jihad. you can twist things into whatever you like just by "translating" them into your own veiws or adding to what has been said. either way they are half truths at best, and mostly end up being just pain wrong.
you didnt aswer my question just like i knew you wouldn't be able to.
there isnt a good answer for that kind of shit, which is what i was trying to show you, but is a mercy kill really worse then leaving the innocent to suffer and die? it's fucked up i know, and i dont know if i could do it in all honesty, but who are you to judge the ones who are put in that position?
you can have fun telling me how wrong i am. but your judgement means nothing to me, you are just another fake name on the internet. i'm sure thats all i am to you, but maybe you'll figure out just how little your opinion means to me since i know mine means so little to you.
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Nothing. It's just that God's orders to destroy certain wicked nations(yes, including their babies) has been discussed for decades. By the end of the long discussions, once people know and understand all the facts about these nations and about conditions in those ancient times, they all agree that punishing the Amalekites in the way depicted in the Bible was justified in order to end the 300 or so year threat....EXCEPT for the killing of their babies. It all comes down to the babies. And they all, just like you, come to the conclusion that the only other thing left to do was to have Israel adopt all those babies.
So, I just find it ironic that people believe that Israel should have adopted all those babies, in a time when Israel did not have the money, the food, the infrastructure, and the means in general to do so. They already had enough babies, children, elderly, sick and crippled of their own to take care of. Adoption would have meant the slow, painful death of not only the adopted babies of Israel's enemies, but also of Israel's babies and eventually all of Israel. Those were harsh times and Israel did not have the means to bear the burden.
The irony is that in today's world, developed countries do have the money, the food, the infrastructure and the means in general to adopt unwanted babies. Yet, to many pregnant women today, and to the men who support abortion, adoption is not an option, but abortion is.
That's all.
I agree there's is an irony here in today's world among so many.
I don't agree any whole nations of adults needed to be killed in any respect. And i don't agree that killing the children because we had no other thing to do with them is justifiable. If we take the task of ridding EVIL then we take on the responsibility fo raising the orphans at whatever burden or If we just kill those kids we are as EVIL as the nation we just killed.
That is not GOD.
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Ozmo, what do you really believe about?
God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit?
I read some disbelief or maybe just a level of uncertainty in many of your posts and thats ok but you seem to be searching for answers so I thought I would ask.
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No i do not support abortion, i support the right for a mother to choose and if she chooses to murder her child i believe it's a sin and wrong. Making abortion legal or not has nothing to do with the choices she makes. She will choose regardless of the law.
It's like this loco:
Is it better for people to do the "right" thing becuase it's the law or is it better for people to do the right thing becuase they choose to do so?
So you do believe that abortion is murder, yet you are pro-choice for the reasons you state above.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what about these mothers we hear about on the news all the time who kill their grown children? That's illegal and it should be. These mothers are put in prison, some even on death row, and they should be punished. The fact that it is illegal did not stop these women from murdering their children.
By your logic above, what's the difference between this and legal abortions? By your logic, we may as well make it legal for mothers to kill their grown children if they so choose.
I can see somebody who doesn't believe that abortion is murder to see a difference between these two, but you do believe that abortion is murder, yet you are pro-choice.
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So you do believe that abortion is murder, yet you are pro-choice for the reasons you state above.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what about these mothers we hear about on the news all the time who kill their grown children? That's illegal and it should be. These mothers are put in prison, some even on death row, and they should be punished. The fact that it is illegal did not stop these women from murdering their children.
By your logic above, what's the difference between this and legal abortions? By your logic, we may as well make it legal for mothers to kill their grown children if they so choose.
I can see somebody who doesn't believe that abortion is murder to see a difference between these two, but you do believe that abortion is murder, yet you are pro-choice.
loco, you keep applying the 2, the law and a person's moral compass. When those things are separate from each other. People are going to do what ever it is they are going to do, the law doesn't always stop especially in the area of abortion.
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Ozmo, what do you really believe about?
God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit?
I read some disbelief or maybe just a level of uncertainty in many of your posts and thats ok but you seem to be searching for answers so I thought I would ask.
I believe the Bible is not the 100% Word of God. I believe it's mostly the word of man and his agenda of the time it was written.
i am certain the "true God" would not order the death of an entire nation of children.
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I believe the Bible is not the 100% Word of God. I believe it's mostly the word of man and his agenda of the time it was written.
i am certain the "true God" would not order the death of an entire nation of children.
What makes you so certain of this and who is the true God in your opinion? Can you back up this claim?
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Loco, who said that a zygote is a "child"? If God thinks zygotes are "children," or "fully human," why does Mother Nature kill off so many of them, often before the mother realizes they are there?
And if a zygote implants itself outside the uterus (or some other big flaw) in a manner such that continued pregnancy will endanger the mother's life, why can't pregnancy be terminated? Would you rather see a mother of 3 die because of her fourth pregnancy, or terminate the fatal fourth pregnancy and let her live to take care of her children and maybe have some more?
If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.
;D
"At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]
http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html
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What makes you so certain of this and who is the true God in your opinion? Can you back up this claim?
Because when you look at the Bible objectively it's easy to see it's the work of man full of petty jealousies, vainness, violence, paranoia and the urge to dominate and control.
God is God, regardless of what you or i think or believe and his message to "everyone" has been ambiguous at best unless you see the similarities and consistencies in all religions. whether you are Jewish, Orthodox or what have you, all religions are right. Just some are right-er that others but NO religion is totally right.
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Because when you look at the Bible objectively it's easy to see it's the work of man full of petty jealousies, vainness, violence, paranoia and the urge to dominate and control. So in your opinion the entire bible is man's word not Gods word; in short a lie to deceive mankind?
God is God, regardless of what you or i think or believe and his message to "everyone" has been ambiguous at best unless you see the similarities and consistencies in all religions. whether you are Jewish, Orthodox or what have you, all religions are right. Just some are right-er that others but NO religion is totally right.
Can you please provide scripture references for your answers to the following?
Please cite one ambiguous message from the God of Genesis 1:1.
Do you believe that mankind is seperated from God or under God's wrath? And if so how can we reconcile with God? Or shall I say what is our fate on this earth?
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Can you please provide scripture references for your answers to the following?
Please cite one ambiguous message from the God of Genesis 1:1.
Do you believe that mankind is seperated from God or under God's wrath? And if so how can we reconcile with God? Or shall I say what is our fate on this earth?
All the evidence we have at our disposal up to this point suggests that the God of the Hebrew Bible does not exist. It is, therefore, futile to discuss is "wrath" and other angry attributes, except in the context of mythology.
Hope this helps.
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Because when you look at the Bible objectively it's easy to see it's the work of man full of petty jealousies, vainness, violence, paranoia and the urge to dominate and control.
OzmO,
Was it not you who said that man is good and has no need for a written law and has no need for a saviour?
If the God of the Bible is, as you say, petty, jealous, vain, violent, paranoid and eager to dominate and control, and if this God is, as you say, the creation of man, then are you not saying that man is petty, jealous, vain, violent, paranoid and eager to dominate and control?
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Because when you look at the Bible objectively it's easy to see it's the work of man full of petty jealousies, vainness, violence, paranoia and the urge to dominate and control.
But the above are characteristics of mankind, aren't they?
OzmO, do you believe any part of the bible is true? If so, what criteria do you use to determine what you deem as acceptable as truth?
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loco, you keep applying the 2, the law and a person's moral compass. When those things are separate from each other. People are going to do what ever it is they are going to do, the law doesn't always stop especially in the area of abortion.
So why have any laws then? Why not just let people do whatever they want and let them answer to God later and be punished in the afterlife?
If you believe abortion is murder, and that people should not be punished for it by law, then why punish people who murder a grown person?
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All the evidence we have at our disposal up to this point suggests that the God of the Hebrew Bible does not exist. It is, therefore, futile to discuss is "wrath" and other angry attributes, except in the context of mythology.
Hope this helps.
Hahaha yeah that helped! I understand now ::) your existence is futile! Why do you continue in this futile existence? Or do you think you will come back as a dog in Michael Vick's dog fighting ring?
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Hahaha yeah that helped! I understand now ::) your existence is futile! Why do you continue in this futile existence? Or do you think you will come back as a dog in Michael Vick's dog fighting ring?
Wow, what a perfectly logical retort... My existence is futile because one mythological character does not really exist??? Yeah, makes perfect sense...
Might as well say, "your existence is futile because Zeus doesn't exist"... As for Vick, I can't see what that has to do with anything...
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So in your opinion the entire bible is man's word not Gods word; in short a lie to deceive mankind?
no, you are assuming i think the "entire" Bible is man's word.
Can you please provide scripture references for your answers to the following?
Please cite one ambiguous message from the God of Genesis 1:1.
Who wrote Genesis 1:1? You have no proof or any idea who wrote it, you only have the Belief it was wrote by God and the belief it was wrote by God based on other people's belief.
Do you believe that mankind is seperated from God or under God's wrath? And if so how can we reconcile with God? Or shall I say what is our fate on this earth?
I think the whole concept of humans born as such sinful wretched creatures is a bunch BS crap conjured up by churches organized religions to keep followers.
I believe in God's creation, i.e. Mankind, i believe we are in a process of growth both individually and as a species. I reject the idea that God created us imperfect and that we must be perfect to reconcile with him based on Adam's and Eve's fall. God created us and put us on earth so that we can realize our potential and grow spiritually, not live with our self-esteem repressed.
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OzmO,
Was it not you who said that man is good and has no need for a written law and has no need for a saviour?
If the God of the Bible is, as you say, petty, jealous, vain, violent, paranoid and eager to dominate and control, and if this God is, as you say, the creation of man, then are you not saying that man is petty, jealous, vain, violent, paranoid and eager to dominate and control?
No, People do need laws, not everyone and someday we will grow enough as a species that there will be few laws as we will treat others with dignity and respect. But that's probably thousands of years away, but we are slowly heading there.
And yes, mankind is all those things and also man kind is compassionate, kind, loving, generous, nurturing etc...
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So why have any laws then? Why not just let people do whatever they want and let them answer to God later and be punished in the afterlife?
If you believe abortion is murder, and that people should not be punished for it by law, then why punish people who murder a grown person?
Actually, on the first group of laws I'd get rid of is non-victimize crimes. drug use & prostitution. You point about abortion is correct if you believe upon conception the baby is a life which a point of debate amongst many. I for one think it is a life but I've explained my position on it already and won't these murders you speak have to answer to god any way as well be punished on earth?
It would be a different world loco if things as black and white as you like them to be. but they are not.
Remember:
1. we have the law of the land
2. The way we choose to live our lives
They are not always the same.
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But the above are characteristics of mankind, aren't they?
OzmO, do you believe any part of the bible is true? If so, what criteria do you use to determine what you deem as acceptable as truth?
True in what sense Stella? give me an example? Like for example do i believe an entire nation was evil and that God ordered the death of it including it's children? NO WAY. That's history written by the victors.
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THE TRUTH about The Amalekites
The Amalekites were nomadic, desert people. They were not a settled people like the Canaanites.
The Amalekites attacked the Israelites without apparent provocation as they were travelling during the Exodus:
Exodus 17:8
The Amalekites came and attacked the Israelites at Rephidim.
The Amalekites targeted the weak and weary, children, elders, cripples, etc., who were lagging behind:
Deuteronomy 25:17-18
Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God.
Many years later, The Amalekites attacked Israel again:
Judges 3:13
Getting the Ammonites and Amalekites to join him, Eglon came and attacked Israel, and they took possession of the City of Palms
The Amalekites often raided the Israelites' land after they had planted crops, leaving them with nothing:
Judges 6:2-5
2 Because the power of Midian was so oppressive, the Israelites prepared shelters for themselves in mountain clefts, caves and strongholds. 3 Whenever the Israelites planted their crops, the Midianites, Amalekites and other eastern peoples invaded the country. 4 They camped on the land and ruined the crops all the way to Gaza and did not spare a living thing for Israel, neither sheep nor cattle nor donkeys. 5 They came up with their livestock and their tents like swarms of locusts. It was impossible to count the men and their camels; they invaded the land to ravage it.
After about 300 years of nations suffering in the hands of the Amalekites, God finally punished the Amalekites. Notice that God had given them plenty of time to repent and turn from their evil ways. Notice too that for 300 years, younger generations of the Amalekites were no better than their fathers, but their wickedness only increased and they continued to raid and plunder other cities.
1 Samuel 15:2
This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "
1 Samuel 14:48
He fought valiantly and defeated the Amalekites, delivering Israel from the hands of those who had plundered them.
Although Saul defeated the Amalekites, he disobayed God and, in his own wisdom, decided to let some of the Amalekites live. What were the consequences? Some 30 or so years later, the Amalekites regrouped, multiplied, increased in numbers and wickedness, and resumed their raiding and plundering, again.
The Amalekites burned down cities, raided other people in the land, and took survivors as slaves for slave trade:
1 Samuel 30:1-4
1 David and his men reached Ziklag on the third day. Now the Amalekites had raided the Negev and Ziklag. They had attacked Ziklag and burned it, 2 and had taken captive the women and all who were in it, both young and old. They killed none of them, but carried them off as they went on their way. 3 When David and his men came to Ziklag, they found it destroyed by fire and their wives and sons and daughters taken captive. 4 So David and his men wept aloud until they had no strength left to weep.
Saul should have listened to God and obeyed Him. This is what happens when we think that we know better than God.
It is very unlikely that the Amalekites had among them any weak people(handicapped, elderly, chronically ill, deformed, crippled, weak males, etc.), much like the Spartans. They could not afford to be slowed down by the weak. They had room only for those who could directly or indirectly contribute to their plundering, such as women to produce children who would be raised to become evil raiders like their parents. Their history is evidence of this.
1 Samuel 30:11-13
11 They found an Egyptian in a field and brought him to David. They gave him water to drink and food to eat- 12 part of a cake of pressed figs and two cakes of raisins. He ate and was revived, for he had not eaten any food or drunk any water for three days and three nights. 13 David asked him, "To whom do you belong, and where do you come from?" He said, "I am an Egyptian, the slave of an Amalekite. My master abandoned me when I became ill three days ago.
God gave the Amalekites plenty of time to repent and turn from their evil ways. But not only did God withhold punishing the Amalekites for many years, but God's law also allowed for any good Amalekites, if any existed, and their children to leave their people and join Israel. As evil as the Amalekites were, any good people among them would have been more than willing to leave. But where would they go? The Amalekites' allies were just as evil, and the Amalekites' enemies would not have welcomed them, except Israel.
Leviticus 19:34
The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.
Exodus 23:9
"Do not oppress an alien; you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens, because you were aliens in Egypt.
Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 25:35
" 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you.
Deuteronomy 10:18
He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing.
Deuteronomy 14:28-29
At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.
Deuteronomy 23:7
Do not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. Do not abhor an Egyptian, because you lived as an alien in his country.
That's history written by the victors.
No, this is not history written by the victors. Israel did not leave what they considered their own criminal acts out of their own writings. Anyone who has read the Old Testament history and prophetic writings could see this. The Old Testament record is literally filled with their evil, especially of the elites and religious authorities! And, they never seem to have a problem describing how frequently they get defeated in battle, for their texts are filled with their defeats too.
If this is not from God, then who is it from? Why would Israel make up a story that God told them not to take anything from the Amalikites, no gold, no animals, no food, no prisoner salves, nothing. If Israel was not allowed to take anything, even after the Amalekites had taken so much from Israel, what was Israel's motivation then? That does not make any sense.
Why would Israel make up a story that God commanded them to completely destroy the Amalekites, and then disobey God's command and let some of the Amalekites go, as king Saul did? That doesn't make any sense either.
The only explanation is that this was from God. God gave the Amalekites plenty of time to repent. God gave any good Amalekite a way out by leaving their people and taking refuge in Israel. Israel was unable to adopt the Amalekite children and did not leave them behind to die a slow, painful death. The blood of the Amalekite children is on the head of their parents, not on Israel and not on God.
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wow, all verses from the Bible imagine that..... ::)
And the fact that it is written as scripture tells me it's even more tainted.
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True in what sense Stella? give me an example?
1. For instance, do you believe that Jesus was crucified on a cross?
2. Or that Judas betrayed Him?
3. Do you believe that "An anxious heart weighs a man down, but a kind word cheers him up?
4. Do you believe that "A gossip separates close friends?"
For the things you believe to be true, how do you come to that determination?
Actually, on the first group of laws I'd get rid of is non-victimize crimes. drug use & prostitution.
OzmO, do you truly believe that prostitution is a victimless crime?
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1. For instance, do you believe that Jesus was crucified on a cross?
2. Or that Judas betrayed Him?
3. Do you believe that "An anxious heart weighs a man down, but a kind word cheers him up?
4. Do you believe that "A gossip separates close friends?"
For the things you believe to be true, how do you come to that determination?
OzmO, do you truly believe that prostitution is a victimless crime?
1. yes, i believe it.
2. don't know.
3. I believe emotions are not always influenced by words but are usually influence by actions.
4. I believe gossip can separate close friends
5. yes
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wow, all verses from the Bible imagine that..... ::)
And the fact that it is written as scripture tells me it's even more tainted.
You are entitled to your opinion, OzmO! ;D
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You are entitled to your opinion, OzmO! ;D
As we are all. ;),
I was however hoping you could come up with something other than the Bible to prove that 100% of a nation was evil.
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As we are all. ;),
I was however hoping you could come up with something other than the Bible to prove that 100% of a nation was evil.
Other than the Bible? You have changed your argument then. We were not discussing what can or cannot be proved, in or outside of the Bible. For that matter, you could just say that the Amalikites never existed, therefore Israel never killed any of them.
It seems to me from your arguments that you were under the impression the Amalikites were a peaceful people who got raided by Israel. And this gave you a reason to argue that the Bible is not the word of God. I challenged you to read the whole story and you didn't, so I posted it for you. Israel took nothing from them, so this was not your typical tribal dispute. Plus, Israel was required by law to take as their own any "good" Amalikite who might want to leave their own, evil people. Though it is not recorded in the Bible, who is to say that some Amalikites did leave their people and joined Israel, and intermarried with the Israelites?
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Other than the Bible? You have changed your argument then. We were not discussing what can or cannot be proved, in or outside of the Bible. For that matter, you could just say that the Amalikites never existed, therefore Israel never killed any of them.
It seems to me from your arguments that you were under the impression the Amalikites were a peaceful people who got raided by Israel. And this gave you a reason to argue that the Bible is not the word of God. I challenged you to read the whole story and you didn't, so I posted it for you. Israel took nothing from them, so this was not your typical tribal dispute. Plus, Israel was required by law to take as their own any "good" Amalikite who might want to leave their own, evil people. Though it is not recorded in the Bible, who is to say that some Amalikites did leave their people and joined Israel, and intermarried with the Israelites?
You are assuming quite a lot loco. Why do you keep doing that? When have i ever said the Amalikites where a peaceful people or even hinted at it?
Maybe you should re-read my arguments.
I simply have stated many times that any nation of peoples is not 100% evil and that the label of being 100% was written by the ones who slaughtered them as justification for doing so. Have you not used that as justification for God's order of the slaughtering of everyone n that nation including the children?
loco, there's no getting around it no matter how hard you try. The bible is like swiss cheese in this matter.
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The Midianites were oppressive and hostile to the Israelites. They were often raiding Israel with the use of swift camels.
Yeah, the Philistines, an evil and oppressive people. And their foreskins were chopped off by David's army, not on order of God, but on order of King Saul, a king God rejected.
The "prank" was played by Isaac's mother. Isaac's older brother is the one who sold his birth right for a bowl of beans.
God did not command Israel to destroy every nation in the promised land. God commanded Israel to destroy only certain nations that were evil, involved in human sacrifice, or were oppressive toward Israel upon Israel's arrival or they were oppressive toward surrounding nations.
Funny how people here are bothered that God destroyed these evil and oppressive nations. Yet, had God not destroyed those nations, people then would be complaining that God is not just for allowing these nations to continue to exist.
Deuteronomy 9:4
After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, "The LORD has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness." No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is going to drive them out before you.
Deuteronomy 12:31
You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
Wow! Great post! Brings it all into perspective. Thanks!
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You are assuming quite a lot loco. Why do you keep doing that? When have i ever said the Amalikites where a peaceful people or even hinted at it?
Maybe you should re-read my arguments.
I simply have stated many times that any nation of peoples is not 100% evil and that the label of being 100% was written by the ones who slaughtered them as justification for doing so. Have you not used that as justification for God's order of the slaughtering of everyone n that nation including the children?
loco, there's no getting around it no matter how hard you try. The bible is like swiss cheese in this matter.
What? Who labeled who "100%" what? What are you talking about? From the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, we know that God does not destroy a wicked people if He can find even 10 righteous people within them. And from that same story, we know that God will somehow provide a way out for those good people and their children if they are fewer than 10, and if they choose to leave. It is their choice, and if they choose to stay, their children's blood is on their own hands then.
From the story of Jonah, we know that God will forgive an entire wicked nation, no matter how wicked they are, if they repent.
So obviously, if there were any Amalekites who were not evil, they were very few. Otherwise God would not have called for their extermination. And the few that were good, if any existed, they most likely took their children and left their evil people before God punished their wickedness.
I have given you who they were and what they did, over a period of about 300 year. You are the one getting around the issue, defending the bad guy, accusing the good guy. Defending abortions, because of "legal issues". You believe that it is murder, yet you believe that it should be legal. Your idea of what is moral and good is what looks like swiss cheese. You have a lot of soul searching to do, OzmO. But I'm glad that we are having these discussions.
As overcome said, put in a similar situation, would you have left the children behind to die a slow, painful death?
You said you would not have killed all of them. Well, king Saul didn't either. And those children grew up to be as evil as their fathers and years later raided and burnt down cities and took women and children captive for slave trading.
OzmO, we can beat this dead horse all you want. But you are only expressing an opinion based on what you think is right. King Saul did what he thought was right in his own eyes, and look how many people paid for his mistake.
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Wow! Great post! Brings it all into perspective. Thanks!
Thanks, swv8199!
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What? Who labeled who "100%" what? What are you talking about? From the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, we know that God does not destroy a wicked people if He can find even 10 righteous people within them. And from that same story, we know that God will somehow provide a way out for those good people and their children if they are fewer than 10, and if they choose to leave. It is their choice, and if they choose to stay, their children's blood is on their own hands then.
Why do you keep switching the story around? Weren't we just talking about the Amalekites?
I also refute that fewer than 10 people in Soddom that were not evil.
From the story of Jonah, we know that God will forgive an entire wicked nation, no matter h
ow wicked they are, if they repent.
More inconsistency
So obviously, if there were any Amalekites who were not evil, they were very few. Otherwise God would not have called for their extermination. And the few that were good, if any existed, they most likely took their children and left their evil people before God punished their wickedness.
More assumption.
I have given you who they were and what they did, over a period of about 300 year. You are the one getting around the issue, defending the bad guy, accusing the good guy.
And the one who ordered the death of a nation of children you are calling good? ::) :o :o :o ::) ::) ::) No wonder the Bible has been the catalyst of soo much suffering through out history. there you go again loco.
Defending abortions, because of "legal issues". You believe that it is murder, yet you believe that it should be legal. Your idea of what is moral and good is what looks like swiss cheese.
Again you fail to read and comprehend. Show me where i support abortion. And if my idea of morals look like swiss CHEESE tell that to the three year boy who watched his mother get de-bowled by a copper sword and then gets a spear rammed in his gut becuase "god" ordered him. ::) ::) ::)
You have been grasping for straws most of this whole debate switching from one thing to another becuase you HAVE TO ACCEPT THE FACT the god you follow MURDERS CHILDREN.
You have a lot of soul searching to do, OzmO.
We all have soul searching to do, loco, that's what part of living is about. But instead, you follow a murderer of children. Open your eyes loco.
As overcome said, put in a similar situation, would you have left the children behind to die a slow, painful death?
You said you would not have killed all of them. Well, king Saul didn't either. And those children grew up to be as evil as their fathers and years later raided and burnt down cities and took women and children captive for slave trading.
Is it better to try and fail or not try at all? Sorry i will not murder children becuase i am unwilling to try. Obviously you are so blind you'll just do what allegedly God told thus Jews and stick a spear into a child wouldn't you?
OzmO, we can beat this dead horse all you want. But you are only expressing an opinion based on what you think is right. King Saul did what he thought was right in his own eyes, and look how many people paid for his mistake.
When you can explain to me how killing children is right and something JESUS would do in those situations then i will concede that it was my opinion.
Until then, the facts remain:
THE GOD IN TH OT ORDERED INNOCENT CHILDREN TO BE KILLED.
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loco, you keep applying the 2, the law and a person's moral compass. When those things are separate from each other. People are going to do what ever it is they are going to do, the law doesn't always stop especially in the area of abortion.
So why have any laws then? Why not just let people do whatever they want and let them answer to God later and be punished in the afterlife?
If you believe abortion is murder, and that people should not be punished for it by law, then why punish people who murder a grown person?
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So why have any laws then?
More black and white thinking eh loco?
Is every violation of the law punished?
Does the law know of every person who violates it?
Why do we have laws?
We have laws to govern a society and bring order.
Not all laws are good.
Legal abortion is not good.
Making abortion illegal isn't good either.
But for a society legal abortion is better than illegal abortion.
But you know, when is the last time we have had the opportunity as a society to change that law? We only have the opportunity individually not to abort and to live our lives as we see fit and that counts more in the end.
Again, from Sodom to abortion................ .the fact remains, God ordered the death of innocent children.
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More black and white thinking eh loco?
Is every violation of the law punished?
Does the law know of every person who violates it?
Why do we have laws?
We have laws to govern a society and bring order.
Not all laws are good.
Legal abortion is not good.
Making abortion illegal isn't good either.
But for a society legal abortion is better than illegal abortion.
But you know, when is the last time we have had the opportunity as a society to change that law? We only have the opportunity individually not to abort and to live our lives as we see fit and that counts more in the end.
Again, from Sodom to abortion................ .the fact remains, God ordered the death of innocent children.
::)
Millions of unborn babies are murdered in your own country, in your own time, while you sit on your butt, behind a keyboard arguing about the killing of babies in ancient times, by a people who lived in ancient times. You believe abortion is murder, yet you are pro-choice. That's supporting abortion, OzmO, there is no getting around it. You don't care because none of these unborn babies are your own.
Go pro-life and speak out for the rights of unborn babies in your country, then we'll continue to discuss the killing of Amalekite babies thousands of years ago. ;)
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::)
Millions of unborn babies are murdered in your own country, in your own time, while you sit on your butt, behind a keyboard arguing about the killing of babies in ancient times, by a people who lived in ancient times. You believe abortion is murder, yet you are pro-choice. That's supporting abortion, OzmO, there is no getting around it. You don't care because none of these unborn babies are your own.
Go pro-life and speak out for the rights of unborn babies in your country, then we'll continue to discuss the killing of Amalekite babies thousands of years ago. ;)
omg lol,
So in defense of GOD ORDERING THE DEATH OF CHILDREN we have come down to you not wanting to debater any longer (as if you had much to stand on) becuase I am pro-choice? ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
When you can come to grips with the CHILD MURDERING GOD you support in the OT perhaps you'll live and talk in reality.
As for more of reality:
Will making abortion illegal stop abortions? Wake up loco!
Making abortions illegal will do 2 things: continue the death of unborn babies and increase the deaths of pregnant mothers.
Wake up loco!
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Loco, if you had a daughter and she got raped and became pregnant, would you want her to keep it or to abort?
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I should add, loco:
If you can debate the point without switching or deflecting your arguments would carry more weight.
But then again how can you argue murdering children unless you are a blind thoughtless follower.
Is this part where you go: "I'm not going to debate with you further until you start acting like an adult.?"
Remember, you're sitting on "your butt" on a computer also. ;D
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Will making abortion illegal stop abortions? Wake up loco!
No, but it's not about that. You believe that abortion is murder. It's about punishing those who commit murder. It's about defending the defenceless. It's about standing up for what's right.
Must we stop punishing murderers and legalize murder in general just because the law hasn't stopped people from commiting murder?
Must we stop punishing rape because the law has not stopped people from committing rape?
Must we stop punishing child molestation just because the law has not stopped people from molesting children?
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No, but it's not about that. You believe that abortion is murder. It's about punishing those who commit murder. It's about defending the defenceless. It's about standing up for what's right.
Must we stop punishing murderers and legalize murder in general just because the law hasn't stopped people from commiting murder?
Must we stop punishing rape because the law has not stopped people from committing rape?
Must we stop punishing child molestation just because the law has not stopped people from molesting children?
Then your GOD in the OT should burn in hell then shouldn't he?
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Is this part where you go: "I'm not going to debate with you further until you start acting like an adult.?"
Nah, you've been behaving like an adult today. And I apreciate that! ;D
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You should scroll up and answer the many questions I've asked that you have choose to ignore but instead switch subjects.
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You should scroll up and answer the many questions I've asked that you have choose to ignore but instead switch subjects.
Really? I was waiting for you to answer all the questions that overcome and I had asked you.
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Then your GOD in the OT should burn in hell then shouldn't he?
Whatever. :-\
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Really? I was waiting for you to answer all the questions that overcome and I had asked you.
He said he didn't want to discuss it any more.
plus that was between me and him, as far you and i are concerned you choose run from my questions.
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Whatever. :-\
yeah, do as i say, not as i do huh? ::)
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He said he didn't want to discuss it any more.
plus that was between me and him, as far you and i are concerned you choose run from my questions.
Like you ran from our questions? ;D
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Like you ran from our questions? ;D
I've answered and addressed just about every question you've asked. You on the other hand haven't repsonded to much of the last 2 pages of posts that contain questions I've asked you.
Which hey, i don't blame you. I'd have a hard time defending the murder of children.
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so here's a question for you loco, ::)
If i was pro-life how would that change anything the God in the OT did concerning him ordering the slaughter of children?
Nothing right?
So what does it matter?
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I've answered and addressed just about every question you've asked. You on the other hand haven't repsonded to much of the last 2 pages of posts that contain questions I've asked you.
Which hey, i don't blame you. I'd have a hard time defending the murder of children.
Do a little scrolling. You won't have a hard time finding the many questions you conveniently ignored.
Oh, and OzmO, you are pro-choice. ;D
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so here's a question for you loco, ::)
If i was pro-life how would that change anything the God in the OT did concerning him ordering the slaughter of children?
Nothing right?
So what does it matter?
Go pro-life and I'll tell ya! ;D
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Do a little scrolling. You won't have a hard time finding the many questions you conveniently ignored.
Oh, and OzmO, you are pro-choice. ;D
You still can't answer the question without attacking my position on a different matter.
Is this the best you can do?
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Go pro-life and I'll tell ya! ;D
::)
whatever.
I was in 3rd grade once too. ::)
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The neat thing about 3rd grade is that IF my dad was Evil i didn;t have to worry about God ordering someone to kill me becuase there were people around running our government who weren't religious fanatics.
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You still can't answer the question without attacking my position on a different matter.
Is this the best you can do?
Asking questions and pointing out inconsistencies and hypocrisy is attacking your position?
Well, you did attack my character, my faith and my God. But hey, I forgive ya! ;D
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Asking questions and pointing out inconsistencies and hypocrisy is attacking your position?
Well, you did attack my character, my faith and my God. But hey, I forgive ya! ;D
We both attacked each others character for different reasons. i don't take it personally. I didn't attack your God. I attacked the alleged God in the OT who murdered children.
Your God and my God are both the same you are just a little misguided and refuse some common sense God granted you.
You will grow in time.
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We both attacked each others character for different reasons. i don't take it personally. I didn't attack your God. I attacked the alleged God in the OT who murdered children.
Your God and my God are both the same you are just a little misguided and refuse some common sense God granted you.
You will grow in time.
Thanks, OzmO! ;D
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Asking questions and pointing out inconsistencies and hypocrisy is attacking your position?
Perceived Inconsistencies in my postion on other subjects not related to the debate subject: "God murdering children" is weak and only deflects from the issue.
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Perceived Inconsistencies in my postion on other subjects not related to the debate subject: "God murdering children" is weak and only deflects from the issue.
A dead baby is a dead baby. It is related.
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A dead baby is a dead baby. It is related.
Again, you are reaching becuase my beliefs right or wrong doesn't change the murder commitment by the Jews on God's orders.
try again loco.
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fight it hard loco, for you must somehow show divinity in killing innocent children
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fight it hard loco, for you must somehow show divinity in killing innocent children
::)
You would rather have babies die a slow, painful death in the desert back then.
You would rather have millions of unborn babies in your country die today.
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::)
You would rather have babies die a slow, painful death in the desert back then.
You would rather have millions of unborn babies in your country die today.
I'd rather have babies not die at all in mothers wombs and men use there common sense and stop following a book of stories of a vain murdering jealous deity.
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I'd rather have babies not die at all in mothers wombs and men use there common sense and stop following a book of stories of a vain murdering jealous deity.
OzmO, you are pro-choice. ::)
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OzmO, you are pro-choice. ::)
Yep and you are pro- child-murder :o ::) ;) ;D
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i must say it cracks me up the lengths you will go through to deflect from the real issue here.
You've pretty much sunk to a adolescent level in your debating.
Until tomorrow,, have a great night and God bless you.
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Thanks, swv8199!
It's great to see so many knowledgeable people on the boards. How did you get so Bible smart? Just over time?
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i must say it cracks me up the lengths you will go through to deflect from the real issue here.
You've pretty much sunk to a adolescent level in your debating.
Until tomorrow,, have a great night and God bless you.
Thanks, OzmO! God bless you too! ;D
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It's great to see so many knowledgeable people on the boards. How did you get so Bible smart? Just over time?
Thanks, swv8199! Yes, there are many knowledgeable people on the boards, and I learn from them. My parents read the Bible to me and took me to church when I was a child. Then I started reading the Bible every day and going to church every week on my own. I surround myself by people who know the Bible and who live by it.
And finally, the Holy Spirit, given to all those who believe in Jesus Christ, helps me understand and remember the Bible. I pray before I post or before I speak to somebody about the Bible and about Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit puts the words in my mind before I speak or before I type. So, I'm not really any more or any less Bible smart than other Christians. It's the Holy Spirit in me. God is in control, even in control of this board. God's word will accomplish what God desires and achieve the purpose for which God sent it. ;D
Mark 13:11
Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 55:11
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
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I'd rather have babies not die at all in mothers wombs and men use there common sense and stop following a book of stories of a vain murdering jealous deity.
You mean the common sense that shows that, had the Amalekites left Israel alone, and not continued to attack them for 300+ years, God would have spared them.
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MCWAY, you quite using that common whats-ama-thing, these guys wont understand :P
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McWay, Israel stole the Amalekites' land... They seem to have a habit of doing that ;)
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McWay, Israel stole the Amalekites' land... They seem to have a habit of doing that ;)
Then what exactly was Saul attacking in 1 Sam 15?
And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley.
If Saul comes to the city, that would mean that the Amalekites were in their own land; and this all started, because the Amalekites attacked the Israelites as they were leaving Egypt, not having settled anywhere. And the Amalekites continued this mess for over 300 years.
Again, had the Amalekites left Israel alone, their getting pummeled by king Saul and crew never would have occured.
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Oh boy your reasoning skills are phenomenal... such mighty powers of logic and critical thinking... are you sure you don't have a PhD in mathematics or theoretical physics?
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Oh boy your reasoning skills are phenomenal... such mighty powers of logic and critical thinking... are you sure you don't have a PhD in mathematics or theoretical physics?
columbusdude82,
MCWAY is right. Israel did not steal their land. Where did you get that?
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Israel wasn't living there... their god supposedly told them that the land was theirs for the taking, so they decided to take it.
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Israel wasn't living there... their god supposedly told them that the land was theirs for the taking, so they decided to take it.
columbusdude82,
The Amelekites did not attack Israel because Israel stole land from them. Israel did not take any land from the Amalekites. Open the Bible and read it for yourself.
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I was talking about the others...
Incidentally have you read "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrmann?
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I was talking about the others...
No, you said
McWay, Israel stole the Amalekites' land... They seem to have a habit of doing that ;)
Incidentally have you read "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrmann?
No, I haven't read it. But here is just part of one of the many long reviews:
Before I conclude, I would like to point out a couple of annoyances with the book that should be of concern to any reader, whether or not he agrees with the author's thesis. First, much of the author's thesis is based upon statements such as "we have reason to think" or "scholars believe" or "studies have shown." These statements may move his argument along quickly and logically, but they are hardly convicting or satisfying. There are very few citations for a book of this depth and potential magnitude. This may be necessary simply because of the intended audience who may be intimidated by a dense bibliography and by many pages of endnotes, but it becomes difficult to truly believe in Ehrman's thesis when he seems so unwilling to offer convincing proof. Finally, the book is filled with statements presented as fact that are, in reality, hotly disputed. Ehrman believes, for example, in the existence of the document known as "Q" and that Luke and Matthew both copied liberally from the book of Mark. He believes that the book of 1 Timothy was not written by Paul and that several important passages throughout the gospels and epistles were not original but appended to the documents at a later date by people with a specific agenda. If the reader does not agree with these presuppositions, much of the book's argument disolves.
Needless to say, I found the book disappointing and unconvincing. Throughout the book, I was continually struck by one nagging thought. If we cannot know with any certitude what parts of the Bible are original, how can we know which parts were changed? If we have no confidence in the original text, how can we have confidence that a particular passage has been tampered with? Ehrman's thesis seems to hinge on the belief that we can know which passages were changed, even while we have no confidence in the original text. This is, quite simply, untenable. His thesis also casts doubt on all of ancient history, for surely the problems with transmission of documents is not unique to Christianity (even if, as he suggests, it is particularly pronounced among those who used amateur scribes).
Ehrman is a skilled writer and creates an argument that has already proven convincing to many people. However, should those who read it choose to dig deeper and to find knowledgeable scholars who reject his thesis, they will soon realize that there is much more to the story than this author is presenting.
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Yeah I haven't read it either, I just wanted to see if you had, and if you did read it, whether you would recommend it.