Attitudes Toward the Bible

[loco]

beatmaster and columbusdude82, you guys crack me up.     

And God still loves you even after you made fun of Him.  I'm praying for you.  May God bless and prosper you both! 

2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!


Have a great weekend!   

[columbusdude82]

If he doesn't want anyone to perish, why does his "Son" (also himself) tell his followers to kill those who deny him, in Luke 19:27?

Contradiction? Of course not.........

[loco]

If he doesn't want anyone to perish, why does his "Son" (also himself) tell his followers to kill those who deny him, in Luke 19:27?

Contradiction? Of course not.........

No.  Jesus did not tell his followers to kill those who deny him.  The one who said that was the man in the story that Jesus told.

Luke 19:11-27

The Parable of the Ten Minas
 
 11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a]'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'
 14"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'

 15"He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

 16"The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'

 17" 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

 18"The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.'

 19"His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'

 20"Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'

 22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'

 24"Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'

 25" 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'

 26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

[columbusdude82]

Yes, loco, I did go to Catholic school, you know

But to the nutjob out there who wants to use scripture to convince his "sheep" to kill, such contextual concerns won't matter much, will they. I am not criticizing this or that verse, I am criticizing people's eagerness to put their common sense aside and accept the scripture of their religions as unquestioned, unquestionable truth, regardless of misinterpretation, context, etc...

To any person who is raised to believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God, and that their preacher/leader/"prophet" gets instructions directly from the Lord, you can see how your attempt to reason with them won't stop them from going out and killing...

[loco]

Yes, loco, I did go to Catholic school, you know

But to the nutjob out there who wants to use scripture to convince his "sheep" to kill, such contextual concerns won't matter much, will they. I am not criticizing this or that verse, I am criticizing people's eagerness to put their common sense aside and accept the scripture of their religions as unquestioned, unquestionable truth, regardless of misinterpretation, context, etc...

To any person who is raised to believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God, and that their preacher/leader/"prophet" gets instructions directly from the Lord, you can see how your attempt to reason with them won't stop them from going out and killing...

Yes, of course the Bible can and has been taken out of context before by nut jobs out there to convince "sheep" to kill, or by evil rulers to control "sheep" in order to obtain wealth and power.  I agree.  But that doesn't mean that the Bible is bad, or that Christianity is not a faith of peace and love.   

The same can be said about nut jobs taking small parts of the US constitution or the Bill of Rights out of context to convince "sheep" to kill, or by evil rulers to control "sheep" in order to obtain wealth and power.  It doesn't mean that the US constitution or the Bill of Rights are bad.

[columbusdude82]

I am not saying the Bible is bad. It's a great book, and I read it a lot, I bet a whole lot more than many of those who claim to live by it...

I am saying the SUSPENSION OF REASON is bad. How many times do I have to say that over and over?

[OzmO]

My question how can you validate or even respect the divinity of someone who orders the death of a nation which would be also ordering the death of it's children.   

Again, those men and their leaders were using the "word of God" as their excuse, justification and more importantly as a way out of any moral accountability for what they did.

[Butterbean]

My question how can you validate or even respect the divinity of someone who orders the death of a nation which would be also ordering the death of it's children.   

Again, those men and their leaders were using the "word of God" as their excuse, justification and more importantly as a way out of any moral accountability for what they did.

Do you mean the bible?  I think back then they were being spoken to directly from God.   



----------------------------




Colombusdude, when you posted this:

If he doesn't want anyone to perish, why does his "Son" (also himself) tell his followers to kill those who deny him, in Luke 19:27?

Contradiction? Of course not.........

and then loco showed you what the text states and then you posted this:

Yes, loco, I did go to Catholic school, you know

what did you mean?  Were you aware of the context of the text before you posted the first time?

[OzmO]

Do you mean the bible?  I think back then they were being spoken to directly from God.   

They allegedly were as the writers say, and those same writers explained natural phenomena as a response from God results from the actions of a person or nation.


And if that is the case, that God spoke directly to them i challenge that who ever told them that was not God in the first place, but instead a angry blood thirsty jealous children murdering nut job.

[columbusdude82]

I meant: yes, I went to Catholic school, I know all the contorted theology and the tortured explanations for all those bizarre Biblical quirks, and was unconvinced by most of them...

STella, let me clarify, since you seem to be asking about my various positions:
I don't believe in God because I don't believe in Allah, Zeus, Poseidon, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, Santa, Jupiter, Adonis, Venus, Mars, Thor, or the Sun Gods... There is no more evidence for the existence of any one of these than there is for the others... The Bible is a great work of fiction, lots of mythology and magic. Lots of bizarre stories and lots of great poetic and eloquent parts to it. But I would no more regard it as "holy" or "divinely insprired" than the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Koran, Pride and Prejudice, or Oliver Twist.

[Butterbean]

I meant: yes, I went to Catholic school, I know all the contorted theology and the tortured explanations for all those bizarre Biblical quirks, and was unconvinced by most of them...

So were you saying what you learned in Catholic school taught you Jesus said to kill those who deny Him?

STella, let me clarify, since you seem to be asking about my various positions:
I don't believe in God because I don't believe in Allah, Zeus, Poseidon, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, Santa, Jupiter, Adonis, Venus, Mars, Thor, or the Sun Gods... There is no more evidence for the existence of any one of these than there is for the others... The Bible is a great work of fiction, lots of mythology and magic. Lots of bizarre stories and lots of great poetic and eloquent parts to it. But I would no more regard it as "holy" or "divinely insprired" than the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Koran, Pride and Prejudice, or Oliver Twist.

Thanks columbusdude!  I appreciate the explanation 

Do you believe in evolution theory or do you have another idea?

[columbusdude82]

Evolution is fact. I "believe" in it same as I "believe" in electricity, gravity, and algebra.

[Butterbean]

Evolution is fact. I "believe" in it same as I "believe" in electricity, gravity, and algebra.

He'll be happy to hear that

[columbusdude82]

I love those people who say they "don't believe in evolution," because it's "just a theory."

Yeah, and gravity is "just a theory" as well, but if they stop believing in gravity, it won't go away, and they won't be able to walk off roof tops without falling...

[loco]

Yes, loco, I did go to Catholic school, you know

Then why did you say this?

God may have simply been testing Abraham's faith, but he wanted Jephthah to kill his own daughter for God!!!

That is false. 

And why did you later say this?

If he doesn't want anyone to perish, why does his "Son" (also himself) tell his followers to kill those who deny him, in Luke 19:27?

That is false too? 

No offence, but you are either ignorant of the Bible, or you are simply lying and hoping that Christians on this board are ignorant of the Bible.

I am saying the SUSPENSION OF REASON is bad. How many times do I have to say that over and over?

I agree.  The suspension of reason is bad.  However, you said

Here's my problem with "faith." "Faith" demands the suspension of reason. You are told to accept, with no evidence whatsoever, some Iron Age texts (contradictory and bizarre as they may be) as axioms not to be questioned. Reason and common sense are to be suspended.

I disagree.  Faith is not the suspension of reason.  Faith does not demand the suspension of reason.  That, my friend, is nothing but your personal opinion.  And that is just fine.  You are entitled to your opinion.  Let me just point out a few others who disagree with you:

"And the beginning of every logical chain is an act of faith: some unproven axiom, some set of postulates that were chosen because they simply felt true. There’s no getting around this, because logical inference can only draw on what is previously given, either as an axiom or a theorem already proved. To demand that every step in a logical chain depends on an earlier logical proof leads, of course, to an infinite regress." - Malcolm Pollack

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

"The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being." - Isaac Newton

"Take, for example, molecules. Many grade-school children are able to tell me that a water molecule consists of H2O. Most of these children have not actually seen a molecule broken apart. So, having never seen it, can they truly say it exists and confidently assert what it is made of? I personally cannot. I am forced to admit that I have put my faith in the textbook, and I believe what it tells me about the composition of a water molecule. That, dear reader, is faith in its simplest form. The evidence of things not seen." - Josh Hefner

"if a person can believe in black holes and multiple universes, then it would be no big deal to believe in God"  - Dr. Michael Guillen

[columbusdude82]

Hey Loco,

Concerning the "faith and reason" thing, I hope you don't mind if I keep it for another thread, so this one doesn't get too cluttered with off-topic discussions.

As for those two quotes of mine, I am neither lying nor ignorant of the Bible. I am simply pointing out how bizarre some Biblical stories are, and how the God of the Bible (and his Son) are not the cuddly teddy-bear types that so many Christians out there seem to think they are.

One of the most revolting things in Christendom is the unflinching attitude held by so many, that "God is love," that he loves them unconditionally and wants them to love him and everyone else, and that the whole universe is one big sloppy love-fest...

[beatmaster]

? is it ok to talk about Satan or do i go directly in hell without passing go and collecting 200$ 

why believe in something wrote by mans, invented by mans, it's a book...... story, c'mon!

damn, i can't believe that some of them believe that the earth is only 6000 years old, fuck the dinosaur and the caveman..... and every proof we have about evolution and yessssssss viva la bible 

[columbusdude82]

Hey Frenchie, it's "men"... the plural of "man" is "men"

[loco]

Hey Frenchie, it's "men"... the plural of "man" is "men"

 

[MCWAY]

Would you say that you are the most morally upright person that you know?



Also, re: Jephthah....God did not "want Jephthah to kill his own daughter for God."  It was a vow Jephthah made on his own.  He killed his daughter all on his own.

AHHHH!!! The old Jephthah story.

If you look at that story closer, it appears that Jephthah didn't really kill his daughter. Remember that his vow was that whatever ran from his house to greet him would be offered to God as a burnt offering.

The first rule of thumb is that you don't offer anything to God, without following His instructions. When it comes to sacrfices, God makes it clear that:

1) Human sacrifice is an absolute no-no, as Loco mentioned earlier, citing the verses in Deuteronomy. God did not want Israel to worship Him the way other folks worship their gods.

2) The book of Leviticus states that burnt offerings had to be animals, usually on a sliding scale (from rich to poor people) of cattle, sheep/goats, or birds.

3) For burnt offerings, the aforementioned animals had to be male.

Based on those three rules, there is no way Jephthah could have sacrificed his daughter with God's approval. And doing such would not have had him mentioned as one of the hallmarks of faith in the book of Hebrews.

Notice that when the daughter learns of what happened, she weeps not for her alleged impending death, but over the fact that she will be a virgin for the rest of her life, something over which she wails for two months with some friends of hers in the mountains.

Why is that important? The account states that Jephthah was an illegitimate child, born of a harlot and cast from his father's home by his half-brothers. Jephthah's wife is presumably dead and this daughter is the only child he has.

She would be his heir; but by Hebrew law, she would have to marry someone within Jephthah's tribe to keep his lineage alive in Israel. Since Jephthah promised to offer whatever greeted him after his victory over Israel's enemies to God and his daughter is the one that greets him, the only way he can keep his vow (given the aforementioned rules of sacrifices) would be to offer her as a temple virgin. That means she never marries, never has any children, and Jephthah's lineage comes to an end.

[loco]

AHHHH!!! The old Jephthah story.

If you look at that story closer, it appears that Jephthah didn't really kill his daughter. Remember that his vow was that whatever ran from his house to greet him would be offered to God as a burnt offering.

The first rule of thumb is that you don't offer anything to God, without following His instructions. When it comes to sacrfices, God makes it clear that:

1) Human sacrifice is an absolute no-no, as Loco mentioned earlier, citing the verses in Deuteronomy. God did not want Israel to worship Him the way other folks worship their gods.

2) The book of Leviticus states that burnt offerings had to be animals, usually on a sliding scale (from rich to poor people) of cattle, sheep/goats, or birds.

3) For burnt offerings, the aforementioned animals had to be male.

Based on those three rules, there is no way Jephthah could have sacrificed his daughter with God's approval. And doing such would not have had him mentioned as one of the hallmarks of faith in the book of Hebrews.

Notice that when the daughter learns of what happened, she weeps not for her alleged impending death, but over the fact that she will be a virgin for the rest of her life, something over which she wails for two months with some friends of hers in the mountains.

Why is that important? The account states that Jephthah was an illegitimate child, born of a harlot and cast from his father's home by his half-brothers. Jephthah's wife is presumably dead and this daughter is the only child he has.

She would be his heir; but by Hebrew law, she would have to marry someone within Jephthah's tribe to keep his lineage alive in Israel. Since Jephthah promised to offer whatever greeted him after his victory over Israel's enemies to God and his daughter is the one that greets him, the only way he can keep his vow (given the aforementioned rules of sacrifices) would be to offer her as a temple virgin. That means she never marries, never has any children, and Jephthah's lineage comes to an end.

Another great post!  Thanks, MCWAY!   

[MCWAY]

? is it ok to talk about Satan or do i go directly in hell without passing go and collecting 200$ 

why believe in something wrote by mans, invented by mans, it's a book...... story, c'mon!

damn, i can't believe that some of them believe that the earth is only 6000 years old, fuck the dinosaur and the caveman..... and every proof we have about evolution and yessssssss viva la bible 

Dinosaurs may be tipping the scale in favor of a young earth, especially in light of recent discoveries, namely soft tissue found in the remnants of a T-rex. The problem with that is soft tissue (by evolutionists' own admittance) can't last for millions of years, the alleged age of that dinosaur, but for a much shorter period of time (read thousands of years).

So, soft tissue found in a dinosaur's remains means one of two things:

1) Soft tissue can last longer than previously thought possible, or...........

2) That dinosaur ain't millions of years old, as previously thought.

As for the caveman, how many foul-ups, bleeps, and blunders have we seen with that one?

[loco]

Dinosaurs may be tipping the scale in favor of a young earth, especially in light of recent discoveries, namely soft tissue found in the remnants of a T-rex. The problem with that is soft tissue (by evolutionists' own admittance) can't last for millions of years, the alleged age of that dinosaur, but for a much shorter period of time (read thousands of years).

So, soft tissue found in a dinosaur's remains means one of two things:

1) Soft tissue can last longer than previously thought possible, or...........

2) That dinosaur ain't millions of years old, as previously thought.

As for the caveman, how many foul-ups, bleeps, and blunders have we seen with that one?

Scientists recover T. rex soft tissue
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7285683/

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/0325Dino_tissue.asp
"Will they now be convinced?
Unfortunately, the long-age paradigm is so dominant that facts alone will not readily overturn it. As philosopher of science Thomas Kuhn pointed out,5 what generally happens when a discovery contradicts a paradigm is that the paradigm is not discarded but modified, usually by making secondary assumptions, to accommodate the new evidence.

That’s just what appears to have happened in this case. When Schweitzer first found what appeared to be blood cells in a T. Rex specimen, she said, “It was exactly like looking at a slice of modern bone. But, of course, I couldn’t believe it. I said to the lab technician: “The bones, after all, are 65 million years old. How could blood cells survive that long?’”6 Notice that her first reaction was to question the evidence, not the paradigm. That is in a way quite understandable and human, and is how science works in reality (though when creationists do that, it’s caricatured as non-scientific)."


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/03/0324_050324_trexsofttissue.html
"Finding these tissues in dinosaurs changes the way we think about fossilization, because our theories of how fossils are preserved don't allow for this [soft-tissue preservation]," Schweitzer said

[overcome]

THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR KILLING CHILDREN.  

I have friends who have shrapnel in there legs and sides because of children, and they have friends that got shipped home in boxes because of these children...

if you really think that children cannot be evil, and don't learn from there parents early in there life you are an idiot.  most behavior is picked up early in the early stages of a persons life, anyone who is educated will tell you this.  why do you think things like breast feeding have such a big impact on a persons life?

and if nothing else this book of stories has allot of things that we can and should follow even if you don't believe in God.  think of how many lives would be saved if we fallowed the basic rules put out for us?  we would have no std's, we would have no racism, no hate crimes, little to no poverty.  You ever hear the phrase "common courtesy is a rare thing"?  look at the people who believe even a little bit compared to the people who don't and tell me who does more good for this world.  really think about it, what helps a community more then the church?  and not every story in the Bible may apply to our lives, but you may forget that not all is in the same position as us, ever think of that?

[Butterbean]

Dinosaurs may be tipping the scale in favor of a young earth, especially in light of recent discoveries, namely soft tissue found in the remnants of a T-rex.

Scientists recover T. rex soft tissue
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7285683/

Thanks I don't think I'd heard about this!