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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Deicide on February 09, 2008, 06:09:36 PM
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(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z25/Todesfick/default-1.jpg)
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(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z25/Todesfick/default-1.jpg)
he created here like that for a purpose, because he loves her.
if she doesnt except jesus she will burn in hell.
except jesus or else?
if you dont beleive exactly what they do you will burn in hell, you have to.
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You are being willingly ignorant (stupid on purpose).
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You are being willingly ignorant (stupid on purpose).
yes and no. this brief example shows how intelligent design is not intelligent. lets use their argument, its complex or appears designed then it is designed. A watch needs a watchmaker because its parts coerce in unison and appear complex.
this baby appears to have no funtionality and appears to be less then optimal. Its poor design, or no design at all would indicate no intelligence.
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Assuming the picture is authentic, it's obviously some kind of defect.
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Assuming the picture is authentic, it's obviously some kind of defect.
well god made it that way, so no its not a defect its exactly the way it should be.
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well god made it that way, so no its not a defect its exactly the way it should be.
No He didn't.
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No He didn't.
Satan...did it....muhahahhahahaha
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No He didn't.
god has every hair on your head numbered, he is all knowing, he plans every detail of your life for a purpose.
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god has every hair on your head numbered, he is all knowing, he plans every detail of your life for a purpose.
And all the dumps you take as well as every wipe to clean your arse! :D
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god has every hair on your head numbered, he is all knowing, he plans every detail of your life for a purpose.
What does that have to do with genetic defects?
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What does that have to do with genetic defects?
Sun in Hawaii getting to you Fundy? :o
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Sun in Hawaii getting to you Fundy? :o
Not at all Troll. :)
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What does that have to do with genetic defects?
it wasnt a genetic defect if god planned on the baby coming out liek that, chance doesnt exist in a pre planned world. god didnt make a mistake did he?
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it wasnt a genetic defect if god planned on the baby coming out liek that, chance doesnt exist in a pre planned world. god didnt make a mistake did he?
God no more planned a genetic defect than he did a crack baby. No coincidence that a disproportionate number of these weird birth defects occur in places where the standard of living is pretty low.
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God no more planned a genetic defect than he did a crack baby. No coincidence that a disproportionate number of these weird birth defects occur in places where the standard of living is pretty low.
your missing my point whether intentionally or unintentionally.
god plans every birth, has a purpose for everyone. the crack baby is gods plan.
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your missing my point whether intentionally or unintentionally.
god plans every birth, has a purpose for everyone. the crack baby is gods plan.
Dude I'm not missing your point, I just don't agree with your point. He doesn't plan the birth as a result of a rape. He doesn't plan births of people who have sex out of wedlock. He doesn't plan crack babies. He doesn't a low birth weight baby when a mother smokes during pregnancy. He still blesses people who create babies when they shouldn't, but those certainly are planned.
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Dude I'm not missing your point, I just don't agree with your point. He doesn't plan the birth as a result of a rape. He doesn't plan births of people who have sex out of wedlock. He doesn't plan crack babies. He doesn't a low birth weight baby when a mother smokes during pregnancy. He still blesses people who create babies when they shouldn't, but those certainly are planned.
thats not what the bible says, you cant have it both ways. either god is in complete control or he is not all knowing, hence he didnt know this baby would be created. your playing both sides, attributing the good to god and the bad to chance, when god is suppose to be all knowing.
a surprise baby violates this attribute.
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thats not what the bible says, you cant have it both ways. either god is in complete control or he is not all knowing, hence he didnt know this baby would be created. your playing both sides, attributing the good to god and the bad to chance, when god is suppose to be all knowing.
a surprise baby violates this attribute.
O Rly? Where does the Bible say genetic defects are planned? That low birth weight babies from mothers who smoke are planned? Crack babies? Enlighten me.
And when pointing me to those references, include the ones that talk about choice.
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O Rly? Where does the Bible say genetic defects are planned? That low birth weight babies from mothers who smoke are planned? Crack babies? Enlighten me.
And when pointing me to those references, include the ones that talk about choice.
i posted a video a while back where the bible specifically says every death and birth is planned by god.
i can get it if you want. i dont have to find a passage that says crack babies etc, just one that says every birth and your argument is sunk.
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O Rly? Where does the Bible say genetic defects are planned? That low birth weight babies from mothers who smoke are planned? Crack babies? Enlighten me.
And when pointing me to those references, include the ones that talk about choice.
Read Pator Rick Warren's masterful Purpose Driven Life.... :D
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i posted a video a while back where the bible specifically says every death and birth is planned by god.
i can get it if you want. i dont have to find a passage that says crack babies etc, just one that says every birth and your argument is sunk.
Show me the Biblical support that God plans genetic defects and all of the births that result from inadvisable, improper, and/or illegal behavior.
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Show me the Biblical support that God plans genetic defects and all of the births that result from inadvisable, improper, and/or illegal behavior.
Bum -
god created everything
including genetic defects
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Bum -
god created everything
including genetic defects
That's ridiculous. Man-made problems are not created by God.
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That's ridiculous. Man-made problems are not created by God.
man made?
I know where you're going with man made angle but birth defects happen with within "normal" populations every day. I have friend who has a son with profound birth defect and he and his wife also have a perfectly healthy daughter
of course god makes people with birth defects
who else do you think is making them?
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man made?
I know where you're going with man made angle but birth defects happen with within "normal" populations every day. I have friend who has a son with profound birth defect and he and his wife also have a perfectly healthy daughter
of course god makes people with birth defects
who else do you think is making them?
Birth defects by definition are abnormal.
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Birth defects by definition are abnormal.
yeah so?
that doesn't mean they are not a creation of god
just like everything else that exists
yes - god makes babies with birth defects
what's the problem?
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yeah so?
that doesn't mean they are not a creation of god
just like everything else that exists
yes - god makes babies with birth defects
what's the problem?
Don't have a problem.
As I said, God no more "creates" birth defects than he does a crack baby.
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Don't have a problem.
As I said, God no more "creates" birth defects than he does a crack baby.
does god create healthy babies?
When you create a list of categories of babies that god doesn't "plan" it suggest that he does plan others
If not, why not just say God doesn't plan any babies and leave it at that?
Dude I'm not missing your point, I just don't agree with your point. He doesn't plan the birth as a result of a rape. He doesn't plan births of people who have sex out of wedlock. He doesn't plan crack babies. He doesn't a low birth weight baby when a mother smokes during pregnancy. He still blesses people who create babies when they shouldn't, but those certainly are planned.
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No, God doesn't plan for women to smoke crack when they're pregnant, resulting in crack babies. No, God doesn't plan for a man to rape a woman, resulting in a pregnancy. No, God doesn't plan for women to smoke while they're pregnant resulting in low birth weight babies.
We choose our path in life. We can all choose to have babies or not (for the most part). Women can choose to lead a healthy lifestyle during pregnancy or not. People who carry genetic defects can choose whether or not to have babies. Women in high risk categories (e.g., age 40 and over) can choose whether or not to have a baby. What we do and the results of sin determine what kind of offspring we produce.
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Bum - there are plenty of birth defects that are completely undetectable and happen to healthy, happy Christian couples.
Does God plan those?
More to the point - why are you so confident in your own infallible human judgement when analyzing God's intention?
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As I said, repeatedly, no God doesn't plan birth defects.
Never said I have "infallible human judgment." lol. But nice try, "straw man."
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As I said, repeatedly, no God doesn't plan birth defects.
Never said I have "infallible human judgment." lol. But nice try, "straw man."
Bum - who are you to think you KNOW what god does and doesn't plan. How about a little humility in deference to your creator. Maybe some of his plans are just a bit beyond your ability to comprehend.
Has that ever occured to you?
Since you do seem to have special access to the mind of God can answer this question
Does God plan the healthy babies? Yes or No
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lol. What in the world are you talking about? I'm expressing an opinion.
I don't have special access to the mind of God, so I can't answer your question. Next straw man question? :)
And just so you know, I completely understand this entire exchange is disingenuous.
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lol. What in the world are you talking about? I'm expressing an opinion.
I don't have special access to the mind of God, so I can't answer your question. Next straw man question? :)
And just so you know, I completely understand this entire exchange is disingenuous.
my questions are not disingenious. You're the one who seems to claim what God does and doesn't do.
For instance you said he doesn't plan the birth as a result of rape. How exactly do you know this?
You claim to know the kind of babies God doesn't plan why is it so hard to answer whether he plans the healthy babies?
Why not just say he plans no babies.
Or even better - why not say you have no clue what god plans/doesn't plan, etc.....
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As I said, I'm expressing an opinion. I don't expect you to agree. And when you say things like "How about a little humility in deference to your creator," you're obviously being disingenuous. But hey this is only a message board. Doesn't bother me.
You're asking me how exactly I know that God doesn't plan for a man to rape a woman? Is that a serious question? I'm not even sure how to answer that. He doesn't plan criminal activity.
Absent rape, people plan to have babies when they choose to have sex.
I don't claim to know God's plan for anyone. Never said I did. But that's just another straw man.
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As I said, I'm expressing an opinion. I don't expect you to agree. And when you say things like "How about a little humility in deference to your creator," you're obviously being disingenuous. But hey this is only a message board. Doesn't bother me.
You're asking me how exactly I know that God doesn't plan for a man to rape a woman? Is that a serious question? I'm not even sure how to answer that. He doesn't plan criminal activity.
Absent rape, people plan to have babies when they choose to have sex.
I don't claim to know God's plan for anyone. Never said I did. But that's just another straw man.
Bum - my suggestion that you look at these questions with some humility was 100% genuine.
Seriously - how do you have any idea what God plans, intends, etc...??
You say you don't but then you turn around and say what god doesn't intend i.e rape, birth defects, etc..
You can't have it both ways
You're using your human perspective of right/wrong etc... You really think God "cares" about the laws of man or our human perspective of Good and Evil?
Assuming that one believes in God one surely could understand that god has higher perpective on this these things
At least I hope you could understand that but then we're back to the humility thing again.
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There is nothing inconsistent about my opinion. God doesn't force people to make choices. That's one of the beauties of being a Christian: the power of choice. That's one of the marvelous things about God: that He sacrificed His Son so I could choose whether to follow God. It's awesome.
I don't intend to keep repeating myself. You are welcome to disagree with my opinion. And I'm certainly not going to change my opinion because you think it's inconsistent.
I tend to use a human perspective because I'm human. But yes, I believe God cares about everyone. Even you. :)
I don't need a lesson in humility. Humility has nothing to do with anything I've said.
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There is nothing inconsistent about my opinion. God doesn't force people to make choices. That's one of the beauties of being a Christian: the power of choice. That's one of the marvelous things about God: that He sacrificed His Son so I could choose whether to follow God. It's awesome.
I don't intend to keep repeating myself. You are welcome to disagree with my opinion. And I'm certainly not going to change my opinion because you think it's inconsistent.
I tend to use a human perspective because I'm human. But yes, I believe God cares about everyone. Even you. :)
I don't need a lesson in humility. Humility has nothing to do with anything I've said.
BB you had me at the free will part which really absolves God of responsibility--if we are free, then we are responsible for our acts....not God.
You lose me at the "god sacrificing his son" bit which sounds crazy. Isn't jesus God anyways?
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There is nothing inconsistent about my opinion. God doesn't force people to make choices. That's one of the beauties of being a Christian: the power of choice. That's one of the marvelous things about God: that He sacrificed His Son so I could choose whether to follow God. It's awesome.
I don't intend to keep repeating myself. You are welcome to disagree with my opinion. And I'm certainly not going to change my opinion because you think it's inconsistent.
I tend to use a human perspective because I'm human. But yes, I believe God cares about everyone. Even you. :)
I don't need a lesson in humility. Humility has nothing to do with anything I've said.
your whole position is contradictory.
your going against the bible, god plans every death and every birth it says so in the bible, apparently you know more about god then he does.
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BB you had me at the free will part which really absolves God of responsibility--if we are free, then we are responsible for our acts....not God.
You lose me at the "god sacrificing his son" bit which sounds crazy. Isn't jesus God anyways?
We are indeed responsible for our own acts.
That whole God sacrificing his Son thing is in the book of Mathew. You should read it. Great story. :)
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your whole position is contradictory.
your going against the bible, god plans every death and every birth it says so in the bible, apparently you know more about god then he does.
What chapter and verse are you referring to?
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We are indeed responsible for our own acts.
That whole God sacrificing his Son thing is in the book of Mathew. You should read it. Great story. :)
With emphasis on the word story... ::)
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With emphasis on the word story... ::)
Well duh. ::)
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Well duh. ::)
You could have said it is a great historical fact.
So did you parents beat Jesus into you or were you 'saved' because you were starving and some coconuts fell from the trees indicating that all the doctrines of Christianity are true?
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You could have said it is a great historical fact.
So did you parents beat Jesus into you or were you 'saved' because you were starving and some coconuts fell from the trees indicating that all the doctrines of Christianity are true?
"An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
(http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/images/troll.jpg)
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What chapter and verse are you referring to?
watch please
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"An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
(http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/images/troll.jpg)
It is not irrelevant. You believe in Biblical inerrancy. It was also a legitimate question.
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watch please
I watched the first two minutes. This is as bad as those conspiracy theory clips. Now I see where you get your information. [chuckle] You should just post their script. :D
So you're referring to Psalms 139:16 where David says his life was planned. Oh that does it for me. Is that it?
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I watched the first two minutes. This is as bad as those conspiracy theory clips. Now I see where you get your information. [chuckle] You should just post their script. :D
So you're referring to Psalms 139:16 where David says his life was planned. Oh that does it for me. Is that it?
that and the fact that god is described as all knowing in the bible.
the fact that your sayhing he is unaware of crack babies contradicts this and the above passage. I get my info from my own mind for the most part with concerns to the bible, i dont even have to read it to know its ludacris. the sheer terrorism of it turns me off.
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that and the fact that god is described as all knowing in the bible.
the fact that your sayhing he is unaware of crack babies contradicts this and the above passage. I get my info from my own mind for the most part with concerns to the bible, i dont even have to read it to know its ludacris. the sheer terrorism of it turns me off.
I didn't say He is unaware of crack babies. I said He doesn't plan them. It's the mother and father who choose to have sex, produce a baby, and the mom who chooses to smoke while she is pregnant that causes a crack baby.
I just watched part of the clip and if you get info from your own mind then the person who made that clip is inside your head. :D That is precisely the same stuff you say on the board (e.g., why doesn't God heal an amputee, etc.).
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We are indeed responsible for our own acts.
That whole God sacrificing his Son thing is in the book of Mathew. You should read it. Great story. :)
I'm switching off reading books about Nietzsche and World War Hulk. I'm certain this Matthew you speak of is right up there with those tomes.
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There is nothing inconsistent about my opinion.
actually almost everything you say on this site is inconsistent. This topic is a perfect example. First you say you don't know God's plan but then you know what god doesn't plan - and you can't understand how that's inconsistent - obviously no point in going any further with this. Time to go show my dog a card trick
God doesn't force people to make choices. That's one of the beauties of being a Christian: the power of choice. That's one of the marvelous things about God: that He sacrificed His Son so I could choose whether to follow God. It's awesome.
I can't even express in words just how creepy I find this statement
I don't intend to keep repeating myself. You are welcome to disagree with my opinion. And I'm certainly not going to change my opinion because you think it's inconsistent.
I've come to expect nothing less. The cement in your head dried a long time ago. I have no expectation that you would revise your belief or understanding about anything or for that matter even look at anything that contradicts or challenges your pre-conceived beliefs
I tend to use a human perspective because I'm human.
yet you have no problem using your finite human perspective to understand the intentions of the infinite or at least what it doesn't intend
But yes, I believe God cares about everyone. Even you. :)
no doubt - but then again if I don't accept his "son" as my personal saviour god has no choice but to condemn me to eternal suffering.....at least according to that "awesome" loving and compassionate religion called christianity
I don't need a lesson in humility. Humility has nothing to do with anything I've said.
Almost everyone could use a bit more humility - especially religious ideologues such as.....yourself
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Just to keep things in perspective. :)
quote author=Straw Man
I never debate religion and I've never post on the religion board (I've only looked at it once or twice)
In my opinion it's pointless to debate with someone who holds a position without evidence or in contrary to evidence.
Besides, my personal belief is anyone who holds a fundamentalist belief in any religion is mentally ill (for real) which again makes for a pointless discussion
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Just to keep things in perspective. :)
Yep - I stand by that statement. You seem to go to great lengths to align your beliefs with the "challenges" of reality. I'm not saying you're mentally ill but I do think your logical contortions and semantic gymnastics make you appear to be a bit kooky - but in a totally harmless way
The ones who are truly ill are the ones who's beliefs drive them to take actions that most normal people would consider crazy - things like bombing abortion clinics, shooting doctors, suicide bombers, flying planes into buildings, the westboro baptist church family etc...
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Beach, you sound an awful lot like the Christians who supported Eugenics in the early 20th century. :'(
You've said that you believe every hair on your head is counted, and that God has intervened in your life, graced you with blessings, yet you believe that God forsakes the lives of others? It looks like that original pic is of conjoined twins, where one was not fully formed. How do you know that wasn't in God's plan, for reasons unknown to man? Or on the other hand, perhaps to remind mankind of his original sin? There are many birth defects that are chromosomal, passed down through genetics, and therefore would seem to be a part of God's plan.
Here are some ladies you would probably hurt very much with your comments, and who believe that their defective children have a reason and purpose for being here.
http://www.mommylife.net/archives/2006/01/gods_role_in_bi.html
Wow, just stumbled on to your site and I'll be bookmarking it. I am the mother of not one but 2 children born w/ birth defects. Various severities of cleft/lp palate to be exact. I haven't read through your whole blog(yet) but I read enough to have me come back!! I read about the prenatal testing, the fears, wanting to terminate, coming out the other side, people who choose termination, God's purpose for children w/ birth defects... sooooo good!!! I put on my twins' birth announcement under my son John 9:1-3 "... but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life." I'm still tested, still worry, still wonder. I think I'm one of God's saltier soldiers.:) Thanks, I'll be back.
Colleen
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Beach, you sound an awful lot like the Christians who supported Eugenics in the early 20th century. :'(
You've said that you believe every hair on your head is counted, and that God has intervened in your life, graced you with blessings, yet you believe that God forsakes the lives of others? It looks like that original pic is of conjoined twins, where one was not fully formed. How do you know that wasn't in God's plan, for reasons unknown to man? Or on the other hand, perhaps to remind mankind of his original sin? There are many birth defects that are chromosomal, passed down through genetics, and therefore would seem to be a part of God's plan.
exactly - how do you know this Bum?
For reasons known only to Beach Bum and God I assume but I'm hoping he'll enlighten us
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Beach, you sound an awful lot like the Christians who supported Eugenics in the early 20th century. :'(
You've said that you believe every hair on your head is counted, and that God has intervened in your life, graced you with blessings, yet you believe that God forsakes the lives of others? It looks like that original pic is of conjoined twins, where one was not fully formed. How do you know that wasn't in God's plan, for reasons unknown to man? Or on the other hand, perhaps to remind mankind of his original sin? There are many birth defects that are chromosomal, passed down through genetics, and therefore would seem to be a part of God's plan.
Here are some ladies you would probably hurt very much with your comments, and who believe that their defective children have a reason and purpose for being here.
http://www.mommylife.net/archives/2006/01/gods_role_in_bi.html
Wow, just stumbled on to your site and I'll be bookmarking it. I am the mother of not one but 2 children born w/ birth defects. Various severities of cleft/lp palate to be exact. I haven't read through your whole blog(yet) but I read enough to have me come back!! I read about the prenatal testing, the fears, wanting to terminate, coming out the other side, people who choose termination, God's purpose for children w/ birth defects... sooooo good!!! I put on my twins' birth announcement under my son John 9:1-3 "... but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life." I'm still tested, still worry, still wonder. I think I'm one of God's saltier soldiers.:) Thanks, I'll be back.
Colleen
lol. Hold on Hoss. lol. (Don't know the female equivalent of Hoss.) I didn't say a word about eugenics. Won't even address that one. That's beyond absurd.
I think you misunderstand my position. I do not believe God plans birth defects. What I believe is God has a "conditional will" that is the result of choices we make. For example, I don't think He plans for a parent to rape their child, resulting in a baby with physical/mental problems. He doesn't force a person to commit that kind of heinous act. What He does, in my view, is bless the results of that act by caring for the people involved and using the birth to benefit someone, someway. Every birth and every child is a blessing, regardless of whether they are "normal" or have physical or mental problems. That doesn't mean God plans each birth. He doesn't. We do. It's our choice to have sex and make babies. Or not.
I have been blessed immensely in spite of who I am. I take nothing for granted. I didn't earn a thing. It is only because, as my buddy says about himself, "God had pity on a fool." God cares no more or no less about me than you or anyone else. I've never said anything otherwise.
And I never said God forsakes anyone. Quit making stuff up.
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Yep - I stand by that statement. You seem to go to great lengths to align your beliefs with the "challenges" of reality. I'm not saying you're mentally ill but I do think your logical contortions and semantic gymnastics make you appear to be a bit kooky - but in a totally harmless way
The ones who are truly ill are the ones who's beliefs drive them to take actions that most normal people would consider crazy - things like bombing abortion clinics, shooting doctors, suicide bombers, flying planes into buildings, the westboro baptist church family etc...
Word to big bird!
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lol. Hold on Hoss. lol. (Don't know the female equivalent of Hoss.) I didn't say a word about eugenics. Won't even address that one. That's beyond absurd.
I think you misunderstand my position. I do not believe God plans birth defects. What I believe is God has a "conditional will" that is the result of choices we make. For example, I don't think He plans for a parent to rape their child, resulting in a baby with physical/mental problems. He doesn't force a person to commit that kind of heinous act. What He does, in my view, is bless the results of that act by caring for the people involved and using the birth to benefit someone, someway. Every birth and every child is a blessing, regardless of whether they are "normal" or have physical or mental problems. That doesn't mean God plans each birth. He doesn't. We do. It's our choice to have sex and make babies. Or not.
I have been blessed immensely in spite of who I am. I take nothing for granted. I didn't earn a thing. It is only because, as my buddy says about himself, "God had pity on a fool." God cares no more or no less about me than you or anyone else. I've never said anything otherwise.
And I never said God forsakes anyone. Quit making stuff up.
Are you stupid?
Most birth defects result from normanl men and women fucking and reproducing, not rape and incest.
Normal people. So much for intelligent design.
Mental gymnastics is the right word. You should check out some other religions. Maybe it was Apollo and Demeter 'blessing' you and not Jehovah the angry fertility deity of goatherders...
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That doesn't mean God plans each birth. He doesn't.
Bum, how is it exactly that you are privy to the intentions/actions of the creator of the universe???
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Word to big bird!
I was trying to be nice
I actually think he's a world class douche bag most of the time
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Are you stupid?
Most birth defects result from normanl men and women fucking and reproducing, not rape and incest.
Normal people. So much for intelligent design.
Mental gymnastics is the right word. You should check out some other religions. Maybe it was Apollo and Demeter 'blessing' you and not Jehovah the angry fertility deity of goatherders...
Me stupid? Depends on who you talk to. :)
Birth defects are abnormal. But I think I've said that. And I didn't say people necessarily do anything to contribute to birth defects. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. What happens every single time a child is born, however, is people choose to have the child, unless the woman is raped.
You should read more about internet trolls and what a scourge they can be on discussion boards. :)
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lol. Hold on Hoss. lol. (Don't know the female equivalent of Hoss.) I didn't say a word about eugenics. Won't even address that one. That's beyond absurd.
I think you misunderstand my position. I do not believe God plans birth defects. What I believe is God has a "conditional will" that is the result of choices we make. For example, I don't think He plans for a parent to rape their child, resulting in a baby with physical/mental problems. He doesn't force a person to commit that kind of heinous act. What He does, in my view, is bless the results of that act by caring for the people involved and using the birth to benefit someone, someway. Every birth and every child is a blessing, regardless of whether they are "normal" or have physical or mental problems. That doesn't mean God plans each birth. He doesn't. We do. It's our choice to have sex and make babies. Or not.
I have been blessed immensely in spite of who I am. I take nothing for granted. I didn't earn a thing. It is only because, as my buddy says about himself, "God had pity on a fool." God cares no more or no less about me than you or anyone else. I've never said anything otherwise.
And I never said God forsakes anyone. Quit making stuff up.
Hoss is fine. I wouldn't want to be called broodmare or something. :)
I'm not making stuff up...you'll notice I put question marks after many comments as I was asking not telling. You do seem to have made yourself misunderstood on this thread BB.
I know you didn't say anything about eugenics, but you sounded, from your posts to discount the lives of children born with defects as you keep talking about births that are the result of depravity. Back then, the rationale was to sterilize deviants to keep them from producing fruits of sin.
Truth is, most birth defects, as Trapeze stated, are the result of genetics - Down's, Tay Sachs, etc. Genetic propensity for producing offspring with defects would point to these children as being God's creations and part of a larger plan. I posted that particular Mommielife reply because she mentioned John 9:1-3 which had been the explanation given to me as a child when I asked why people were born challenged.
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Me stupid? Depends on who you talk to. :)
I vote yes
actually - I really don't think you're stupid. You seem smart enough at times but then other times .... :-\
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Hoss is fine. I wouldn't want to be called broodmare or something. :)
I'm not making stuff up...you'll notice I put question marks after many comments as I was asking not telling. You do seem to have made yourself misunderstood on this thread BB.
I know you didn't say anything about eugenics, but you sounded, from your posts to discount the lives of children born with defects as you keep talking about births that are the result of depravity. Back then, the rationale was to sterilize deviants to keep them from producing fruits of sin.
Truth is, most birth defects, as Trapeze stated, are the result of genetics - Down's, Tay Sachs, etc. Genetic propensity for producing offspring with defects would point to these children as being God's creations and part of a larger plan. I posted that particular Mommielife reply because she mentioned John 9:1-3 which had been the explanation given to me as a child when I asked why people were born challenged.
Deedee I don't discount anyone's life. Each one is special, including encephalic newborns, even though they live for just a short period of time. The issue I was addressing was whether God plans birth defects. I maintain the answer is "no."
When I mentioned sin I wasn't necessarily talking about people contributing to birth defects. That happens (e.g., my crack baby reference), but I was talking about Adam and Eve. I know you've heard this before, but all sin on Earth originated from them. All of the harmful, abnormal, etc. things we see today can be traced to them and the origination of sin with those two. That's what my "sin" reference primarily related to.
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I vote yes
actually - I really don't think you're stupid. You seem smart enough at times but then other times .... :-\
:-X
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:-X
hey man - at least I said you seemed smart sometimes and I'm sure you've got other great skills like pounding square pegs into square holes and things like that.
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hey man - at least I said you seemed smart sometimes and I'm sure you've got other great skills like pounding square pegs into square holes and things like that.
I've got mad skills man. Just ask my kids. I'm the Playstation king. Beat the crap out of them so badly that some of them don't like to play me anymore. My little one said I talk too much trash.
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Deedee I don't discount anyone's life. Each one is special, including encephalic newborns, even though they live for a just a short period of time. The issue I was addressing was whether God plans birth defects. I maintain the answer is "no."
When I mentioned sin I wasn't necessarily talking about people contributing to birth defects. That happens (e.g., my crack baby reference), but I was talking about Adam and Eve. I know you've heard this before, but all sin on Earth originated from them. All of the harmful, abnormal, etc. things we see today can be traced to them and the origination of sin with those two. That's what my "sin" reference primarily related to.
Adam and Fucking Eve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAAHAHA.........yup... .sin....
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Adam and Fucking Eve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAAHAHA.........yup... .sin....
(http://learning.cc.hccs.edu/Members/cschweitzer/images/troll.jpg)
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I've got mad skills man. Just ask my kids. I'm the Playstation king. Beat the crap out of them so badly that some of them don't like to play me anymore. My little one said I talk too much trash.
I'm sure you're probably a good dad and your little one sounds pretty smart
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I'm sure you're probably a good dad and your little one sounds pretty smart
A good dad lies to his kids about ancient mythology being the absolute truth?
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A good dad lies to his kids about ancient mythology being the absolute truth?
well in Bums defense he obviously doesn't think they are lies.
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I'm sure you're probably a good dad and your little one sounds pretty smart
Is that a compliment? :o Thanks. :) My little one is very smart. All of my kids are. Including my oldest who was just teasing me about not knowing Calculus (I don't have a clue).
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Is that a compliment? :o Thanks. :) My little one is very smart. All of my kids are. Including my oldest who was just teasing me about not knowing Calculus (I don't have a clue).
I guess it might be interpreted as such, and certainly for your youngest kid who seem to know already that his dad is full of it most to the time.
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I guess it might be interpreted as such, and certainly for your youngest kid who seem to know already that his dad is full of it most to the time.
I can't believe you approve of teaching children mythology as fact....! :o
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I can't believe you approve of teaching children mythology as fact....! :o
I didn't say I approved of it I pointed out that I Bum most likely doesn't think he is lying when/if he teaches his kids that stuff.
He obviously believes it's true
Also, it's not my place to approve/disapprove what anyone chooses to teach their kids.
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I didn't say I approved of it I pointed out that I Bum most likely doesn't think he is lying when/if he teaches his kids that stuff.
He obviously believes it's true
Also, it's not my place to approve/disapprove what anyone chooses to teach their kids.
I agree. It's too bad for them. When the rest of society is getting ahead they will still be rolling on the floor speaking in 'tongues'...like these kids...
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I guess it might be interpreted as such, and certainly for your youngest kid who seem to know already that his dad is full of it most to the time.
That would be my teenagers, who KNOW they are smarter than me. Just wait till you have kids. You will go from the smartest man on the planet to a dope (in your kids' eyes).
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That would be my teenagers, who KNOW they are smarter than me. Just wait till you have kids. You will go from the smartest man on the planet to a dope (in your kids' eyes).
At least some of us won't be teaching their children Iron Age mythology as scientific and historical fact.
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That would be my teenagers, who KNOW they are smarter than me. Just wait till you have kids. You will go from the smartest man on the planet to a dope (in your kids' eyes).
I'm sure yourr little one has an inkling too
Do you get more abuse at home or on GetBig?
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At least some of us won't be teaching their children Iron Age mythology as scientific and historical fact.
::)
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I'm sure you little one has an inkling too
Do you get more abuse at home or on GetBig?
Neither. :)
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Neither. :)
so you get just as much abuse at home as you do on GetBig?
are you a closet masochist?
out of the closet?
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That would be my teenagers, who KNOW they are smarter than me. Just wait till you have kids. You will go from the smartest man on the planet to a dope (in your kids' eyes).
And then when they turn 21 and have been on their own for a while you all of a sudden become the wisest man on earth, at least that's what i'm told. I'll know for sure in a year and a half. ;D
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And then when they turn 21 and have been on their own for a while you all of a sudden become the wisest man on earth, at least that's what i'm told. I'll know for sure in a year and a half. ;D
lol. Good luck. You'll probably be the First National Bank for a while. I hear that it's very hard to get them off the payroll. :)
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::)
Only in a world this demented and deluded could a comment like that get a rolly eyes smiley.
You never did explain why you believe Genesis is literally true!
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Deedee I don't discount anyone's life. Each one is special, including encephalic newborns, even though they live for a just a short period of time. The issue I was addressing was whether God plans birth defects. I maintain the answer is "no."
When I mentioned sin I wasn't necessarily talking about people contributing to birth defects. That happens (e.g., my crack baby reference), but I was talking about Adam and Eve. I know you've heard this before, but all sin on Earth originated from them. All of the harmful, abnormal, etc. things we see today can be traced to them and the origination of sin with those two. That's what my "sin" reference primarily related to.
But then, you're only arguing the point that God DOES plan birth defects.
Because of Adam and Eve's indescretion with Satan and the apple, original sin and its consequences were unleashed upon the world. Granted.
If God created man, he ensured that some of the population would carry the propensity for bearing defective offspring, via our genetics. In short, if God created man, then he also created our genetics... ergo he "created" birth defects.
This idea totally works within the Adam and Eve original sin issue. Doesn't it?
And finally, it seems God has had no problem with the murder of children (as is written in the bible), so why would He balk at creating children with defects, as a reminder of our weakness and sin?
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lol. Good luck. You'll probably be the First National Bank for a while. I hear that it's very hard to get them off the payroll. :)
lol, i already am the first national bank and fort knox. :P
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That picture does not look real, but that's not the point.
The Christian belief is that God created Adam and Eve with two legs, not three. God created Adam and Eve with the ability to procreate babies with two legs, not three. Because of the sin of Adam, harmful mutations and birth defects entered this world, hence three legged babies.
Also, regardless of the sin of Adam, certain individuals make their own bad choices, personal sins, such as the ones Beach Bum already pointed out, which affect their unborn babies, hence the three legged baby.
Even if you do not believe in God, you could say the same about nature. Humans do not have three legs, normally. If a baby is born with three legs it is understood that this would be a birth defect, a harmful mutation, or consequences of the parents bad choices. But it is accepted that naturally, this isn't the norm.
Birth defects and harmful mutations are not a good argument against intelligent design. If anything, harmful mutations have been used as an argument against evolution, which depends on beneficial/positive mutations.
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That picture does not look real, but that's not the point.
The Christian belief is that God created Adam and Eve with two legs, not three. God created Adam and Eve with the ability to procreate babies with two legs, not three. Because of the sin of Adam, harmful mutations and birth defects entered this world, hence three legged babies.
Also, regardless of the sin of Adam, certain individuals make their own bad choices, personal sins, such as the ones Beach Bum already pointed out, which affect their unborn babies, hence the three legged baby.
Even if you do not believe in God, you could say the same about nature. Humans do not have three legs, normally. If a baby is born with three legs it is understood that this would be a birth defect, a harmful mutation, or consequences of the parents bad choices. But it is accepted that naturally, this isn't the norm.
Birth defects and harmful mutations are not a good argument against intelligent design. If anything, harmful mutations have been used as an argument against evolution, which depends on beneficial/positive mutations.
I'm curious as to what versus say that Adam's sin caused birth defects in the human race. I vaguely remember something heals but perhaps you exactly what that is.
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I'm curious as to what versus say that Adam's sin caused birth defects in the human race. I vaguely remember something heals but perhaps you exactly what that is.
I don't think that there is any Bible verse that says "birth defects" specifically are caused by Adam's sin. What the Bible says is that sin entered our world through Adam and that sin brings consequences, death and suffering.
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That picture does not look real, but that's not the point.
The Christian belief is that God created Adam and Eve with two legs, not three. God created Adam and Eve with the ability to procreate babies with two legs, not three. Because of the sin of Adam, harmful mutations and birth defects entered this world, hence three legged babies.
Also, regardless of the sin of Adam, certain individuals make their own bad choices, personal sins, such as the ones Beach Bum already pointed out, which affect their unborn babies, hence the three legged baby.
Even if you do not believe in God, you could say the same about nature. Humans do not have three legs, normally. If a baby is born with three legs it is understood that this would be a birth defect, a harmful mutation, or consequences of the parents bad choices. But it is accepted that naturally, this isn't the norm.
Birth defects and harmful mutations are not a good argument against intelligent design. If anything, harmful mutations have been used as an argument against evolution, which depends on beneficial/positive mutations.
You always argue everything backwards. Nobody is saying that birth defects are an argument against intelligent design. Christians just want it both ways. You say God created man (from dust) but then in the same breath you say that the genetic code that makes up the human being, and is responsible for birth defects, is NOT a result of God's creation.
Huh? Doesn't make any sense at all. You and Beach keep harping on crack babies and babies with fetal alcohol syndrome, but most defects are caused by chromosomal issues inherent in our DNA. Neither one of you seems to be able to explain that away in any simple, intelligent fashion. People who don't believe in man as "God's" creation understand that nature screws up, and so we don't need jump through ridiculous hoops trying to explain the actions of a cruel diety.
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You always argue everything backwards. Nobody is saying that birth defects are an argument against intelligent design.
Excuse me? Read the title of this thread "Intelligent Design at its best!", started by none other than Trapezkerl, a self proclaimed advocate of Unintelligent Design, with a post of a picture of a three legged baby.
Christians just want it both ways. You say God created man (from dust) but then in the same breath you say that the genetic code that makes up the human being, and is responsible for birth defects, is NOT a result of God's creation.
Huh? Doesn't make any sense at all. You and Beach keep harping on crack babies and babies with fetal alcohol syndrome, but most defects are caused by chromosomal issues inherent in our DNA. Neither one of you seems to be able to explain that away in any simple, intelligent fashion. People who don't believe in man as "God's" creation understand that nature screws up, and so we don't need jump through ridiculous hoops trying to explain the actions of a cruel diety.
Christians do not want it both ways. Christians believe that God created Adam from dust, without birth defects, and that birth defects are one of many consequences of sin, which entered the world through Adam. How is this wanting it both ways? Nature screws up, yes, because of sin. Nature would not screw up if sin had never entered the world. I'm just explaining the Christian point of view, Deedee.
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I don't think that there is any Bible verse that says "birth defects" specifically are caused by Adam's sin. What the Bible says is that sin entered our world through Adam and that sin brings consequences, death and suffering.
Thanks.
So suffering covers much.
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Thanks.
So suffering covers much.
You are welcome!
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I see. So then ultimately is Satan is responsible for the glitches in our DNA that cause birth defects ??? I mean, if it wasn't God who meted out the original punishment for tasting the forbidden fruit then who was it ??? Did the punishment for original sin manifest itself out of thin air ??? Because if God DID mete out the punishment that was to affect us through the generations as a reminder, then ultimately it was He who affected the DNA of human beings so that a certain % would give birth to defective babies.
You do realize that you haven't said anything that even remotely approaches rationality. If you accept that we are all paying for original sin, then why do you have such trouble accepting that God metes out the punishment on children.
And what about John 9:1-3? Seems like Jesus doesn't agree with you consistently. Some people seem to be born defective so that God can make miracles out of them.
1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3 "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
Trapeze hasn't really contributed to the arguments in this thread.
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I see. So then ultimately is Satan is responsible for the glitches in our DNA that cause birth defects ??? I mean, if it wasn't God who meted out the original punishment for tasting the forbidden fruit then who was it ??? Did the punishment for original sin manifest itself out of thin air ??? Because if God DID mete out the punishment that was to affect us through the generations as a reminder, then ultimately it was He who affected the DNA of human beings so that a certain % would give birth to defective babies.
Let's not give Satan too much credit. Adam sinned, and we sin. And is it that human DNA in general already have glitches that cause birth defects, or is it that certain human beings are born with these glitches which cause their off springs to be born with defects?
Deedee, you can look at it anyway you want to. You can blame Satan for tempting Adam, or you could even blame God for birth defects for not stopping Adam from sinning. Pick one. I'll go by what the Bible says.
You do realize that you haven't said anything that even remotely approaches rationality.
No
If you accept that we are all paying for original sin, then why do you have such trouble accepting that God metes out the punishment on children.
I do not have trouble accepting that God allows children to suffer for the sin of others, just as I do not have trouble accepting that God allows children to be blessed by the good deeds and good choices of others.
And what about John 9:1-3? Seems like Jesus doesn't agree with you consistently. Some people seem to be born defective so that God can make miracles out of them.
1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3 "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
Yes, there are always exceptions to the norm. This particular man was born blind from birth so that this particular miracle could be displayed in him. Since this man was blind from childhood and everybody in the area knew him well, it was not possible to prove that this miracle was just a trick, though the religious leaders of the time did unsuccessfully try to prove that it was a trick to discredit Jesus.
Trapeze hasn't really contributed to the arguments in this thread.
So? The purpose of this thread is obviously, for the reason I stated before, to use birth defects as an argument against Intelligent Design. If it isn't so, let Trapeze deny it and be done with it. I don't have a problem with that. I was simply stating that birth defects are not a good argument against Intelligent Design.
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I see. So then ultimately is Satan is responsible for the glitches in our DNA that cause birth defects ??? I mean, if it wasn't God who meted out the original punishment for tasting the forbidden fruit then who was it ??? Did the punishment for original sin manifest itself out of thin air ??? Because if God DID mete out the punishment that was to affect us through the generations as a reminder, then ultimately it was He who affected the DNA of human beings so that a certain % would give birth to defective babies.
You do realize that you haven't said anything that even remotely approaches rationality. If you accept that we are all paying for original sin, then why do you have such trouble accepting that God metes out the punishment on children.
...
It's at this point that I find proponents of the doctrine of Original Sin refer to the mystery of God's will. It's God's will that this happens and His thoughts/motives are beyond our ken. His Plan is bigger than anything we can conceive.
This is the quandary that these supporters fall upon--God is a mystery yet we have his full conclusive Word in the good book--a book of history, science, ethics, morality, fashion, politics and on and on...but His will is still a mystery.
It gets to a point where any meaningful discussion of the topic devolves into this type of demagoguery.
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It's at this point that I find proponents of the doctrine of Original Sin refer to the mystery of God's will. It's God's will that this happens and His thoughts/motives are beyond our ken. His Plan is bigger than anything we can conceive.
This is the quandary that these supporters fall upon--God is a mystery yet we have his full conclusive Word in the good book--a book of history, science, ethics, morality, fashion, politics and on and on...but His will is still a mystery.
It gets to a point where any meaningful discussion of the topic devolves into this type of demagoguery.
You're right. Normally that's the case.
Except for some reason they don't want to accept that God is in charge of birth defects. It's fascinating to me.
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Only in a world this demented and deluded could a comment like that get a rolly eyes smiley.
You never did explain why you believe Genesis is literally true!
::) Yes I did.
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But then, you're only arguing the point that God DOES plan birth defects.
Because of Adam and Eve's indescretion with Satan and the apple, original sin and its consequences were unleashed upon the world. Granted.
If God created man, he ensured that some of the population would carry the propensity for bearing defective offspring, via our genetics. In short, if God created man, then he also created our genetics... ergo he "created" birth defects.
This idea totally works within the Adam and Eve original sin issue. Doesn't it?
And finally, it seems God has had no problem with the murder of children (as is written in the bible), so why would He balk at creating children with defects, as a reminder of our weakness and sin?
Your rationale only works if God created Adam and Eve as imperfect beings.
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You're right. Normally that's the case.
Except for some reason they don't want to accept that God is in charge of birth defects. It's fascinating to me.
Not necessarily. I guess you could argue that God is in charge of birth defects, by allowing them to occur as a consequence of sin, by causing some of them like in the case of the blind man in the NT, by preventing some of them that we do not know He might have prevented, etc.
So glad I can fascinate you, Deedee! ;D
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Your rationale only works if God created Adam and Eve as imperfect beings.
Not really. People on this thread have claimed that birth defects are the punishment exacted from God as a result of original sin.
If God doled out the punishment for original sin which was to be suffered over the generations, you then have to acknowledge that God altered human DNA in order for some to produce a certain % of defective offspring.
If you don't think birth defects are a consequence of original sin, but do believe that God created man, then it follows rationally that God simply included chromosomal anomolies in some humans from the start.
Or, you could believe that some other entity, like Satan had a hand in it, although there is no biblical reference to support that, is there? (The whole original sin thing is mostly a Paul project... does anyone else mention it even?)
But if you believe that birth defects are simply the result of nature screw-ups and God has nothing to do with any of it, then I hate to break it to you, but you're arguing for evolution and natural selection.
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Not necessarily. I guess you could argue that God is in charge of birth defects, by allowing them to occur as a consequence of sin, by causing some of them like in the case of the blind man in the NT, by preventing some of them that we do not know He might have prevented, etc.
So glad I can fascinate you, Deedee! ;D
Always. :)
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Not really. People on this thread have claimed that birth defects are the punishment exacted from God as a result of original sin.
If God doled out the punishment for original sin which was to be suffered over the generations, you then have to acknowledge that God altered human DNA in order for some to produce a certain % of defective offspring.
If you don't think birth defects are a consequence of original sin, but do believe that God created man, then it follows rationally that God simply included chromosomal anomolies in some humans from the start.
Or, you could believe that some other entity, like Satan had a hand in it, although there is no biblical reference to support that, is there? (The whole original sin thing is mostly a Paul project... does anyone else mention it even?)
But if you believe that birth defects are simply the result of nature screw-ups and God has nothing to do with any of it, then I hate to break it to you, but you're arguing for evolution and natural selection.
I disagree. That just doesn't make sense. He couldn't have created an imperfect perfect person. That's essentially what you're saying. If sin never entered the world through Adam and Eve then there would have been no disease, abnormalities, etc. There would have no suffering and no death.
The conduct of men and women after "the fall" resulted in all sorts of problems.
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This "debate" is hilarious.
It's so f'ng funny when religious people explain what their God intends/intended, what their God does and doesn't do, etc...
Here's a thought - how do you know God doesn't plan the deformed child because that person will teach other people (directly or indirectly) things they need to learn in their life. How do you know God doesn't plan the "crack baby" because that person needs those challenges so when they become an adult it helps them somehow in their life. I can think of a million different "what if" scenarios
The lengths you guys go through to align your belief system with the contradictions of reality is just so f'ng absurd
How can you have the audacity to use your feeble human reasoning to understand God's intentions/actions etc...
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This "debate" is hilarious.
It's so f'ng funny when religious people explain what their God intends/intended, what their God does and doesn't do, etc...
Here's a thought - how do you know God doesn't plan the deformed child because that person will teach other people (directly or indirectly) things they need to learn in their life. How do you know God doesn't plan the "crack baby" because that person needs those challenges so when they become an adult it helps them somehow in their life. I can think of a million different "what if" scenarios
The lengths you guys go through to align your belief system with the contradictions of reality is just so f'ng absurd
How can you have the audacity to use your feeble human reasoning to understand God's intentions/actions etc...
Straw Man, so you are saying that you believe in God and that God works in mysterious ways? You've never heard a Christian say that before, have you? ;D
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Straw Man, so you are saying that you believe in God and that God works in mysterious ways? You've never heard a Christian say that before, have you? ;D
I'm not saying I believe in a Christian God or any God.....well maybe Vishnu
I'm just giving you an example of why maybe just maybe the human ability to reason and understand it just a little bit limited when it comes to understanding the actions of ones' God
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I'm not saying I believe in a Christian God or any God.....well maybe Vishnu
I'm just giving you an example of why maybe just maybe the human ability to reason and understand it just a little bit limited when it comes to understanding the actions of ones' God
Fucking Occam's Razor....get this god shit out of it...
Mutations occurr...that's just the way shit is...a much better explanation than wondering about the literal interpretation of ancient Sumerian and Persian mythology plagiarised by the Hebrews...
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Fucking Occam's Razor....get this god shit out of it...
Mutations occurr...that's just the way shit is...a much better explanation than wondering about the literal interpretation of ancient Sumerian and Persian mythology plagiarised by the Hebrews...
my point was directed toward the "true believers" on this board who think can use their limited human perspective to explain their chosen god's intentions