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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Nutrition, Products & Supplements Info => Topic started by: SpeedDemon on May 15, 2008, 12:25:40 PM
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Is there any down side to regularly taking anti inflammatories like Ibuprofen over a long period of time besides stomach pain??
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yes and no
studies support both sides
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I always take academic studies with a grain of salt and put them against the real world experience of the members of this board.
what works in the class room and what works in the weight room are not always the same.
The same is true in reverse as well, I don't take any body on here's advice as gospel until I've done my own research
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I always take academic studies with a grain of salt and put them against the real world experience of the members of this board.
what works in the class room and what works in the weight room are not always the same.
The same is true in reverse as well, I don't take any body on here's advice as gospel until I've done my own research
okay well tom pricne said he was addicted to advil (ibuprofen) when he was training... i would assum that it in no way hinders muscle growth or conditoning sine tom was a VERY large man and cam in great condiition
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Ok, Cause i've read several article that say it decreases the adaptation to stress response and hinders muscle growth and strength development but I've also read that that is a load of crap.
I figure if I'm not in pain I can train harder and that will benefit me more than the anti inflammatories would hold me back
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Is there any down side to regularly taking anti inflammatories like Ibuprofen over a long period of time besides stomach pain??
I read a study saying that soccer players were having heart problems for taking too much ibuprofen...
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Fish oil has anti inflammatory properties ;D
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I wouldn't take them for long periods for health reasons anyway.
Maybe you should look for other alternatives: glucosamine, fish oil, dropping certain excercises, going with lighter weights but more sets, ...
okay well tom pricne said he was addicted to advil (ibuprofen) when he was training... i would assum that it in no way hinders muscle growth or conditoning sine tom was a VERY large man and cam in great condiition
1 case does not prove anything. And who knows, maybe he would have been Mr. O without the Advil.
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Never take any form of anti inflamitory (tabs, cream etc) for DOMS.
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any anti inflammatories can hinder muscle growth, you need muscular inflammation PWO in order for growth to occur. Its the reasoning behind the supplement X factor which is Arachidonic acid which increases inflammation. A recent study was just published which showed that it increased muscle growth, but the body of evidence suggests muscle inflammation is needed.
candidate, tom was on a boat load of drugs so i would imagine he was an atypical case if there ever was one.
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Studies on both sides, but I'd guess the lack of muscular inflammation postworkout would hurt gains, as umokepole mentioned.
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okay well tom pricne said he was addicted to advil (ibuprofen) when he was training... i would assum that it in no way hinders muscle growth or conditoning sine tom was a VERY large man and cam in great condiition
Unfortunatley he was taking a little more than just "Advil" along with prescription pain medication and God knows what else. Yes he was large man but he got that size by taking enourmous amounts of gear also and paid the ultimate price with his kidneys. BTW: I was told by my doctor that prescription pain meds, does in fact hinder muscle growth. Not sure about Advil or tylanol though..
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Fish oil has anti inflammatory properties ;D
This is very true, I take them everyday for the past 4 months and all joint pain i EVER had in my life is GONE!
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Ibuprofen inhibits muscle gains
by Dr. Paul Cribb Ph.D. CSCS.
AST Director of Research
Cyclooxygenase (COX) activity and its downstream prostaglandins are involved in the muscle growth response to weight training. Prostaglandins are potent modulators of pain and inflammation in muscle tissue. A recent study has shown that the anti-inflammatory drug Ibuprofen inhibits COX activity and the muscle growth response to overload.
I reported this phenomenon in a previous article. However, this new study directly assessed muscle growth in response to overload within and without the effects of Ibuprofen. It also provided a clear mechanistic explanation for the impaired growth response from this drug.
Therefore, although drugs such as Ibuprofen may help reduce pain and inflammation after injury, it seems clear that they also interfere with skeletal muscle adaptations to resistance exercise. If you’re training hard to build muscle but require relief of chronic joint pain, try daily supplementation with ProFlex 750. Use Ibuprofen sparingly.
Source: Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 38(5); 840-846, 2006.
http://www.ast-ss.com/research/cribb/research_reviews/rr_full_text.asp?rrID=523
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Ibuprofen inhibits muscle gains
by Dr. Paul Cribb Ph.D. CSCS.
AST Director of Research
Cyclooxygenase (COX) activity and its downstream prostaglandins are involved in the muscle growth response to weight training. Prostaglandins are potent modulators of pain and inflammation in muscle tissue. A recent study has shown that the anti-inflammatory drug Ibuprofen inhibits COX activity and the muscle growth response to overload.
I reported this phenomenon in a previous article. However, this new study directly assessed muscle growth in response to overload within and without the effects of Ibuprofen. It also provided a clear mechanistic explanation for the impaired growth response from this drug.
Therefore, although drugs such as Ibuprofen may help reduce pain and inflammation after injury, it seems clear that they also interfere with skeletal muscle adaptations to resistance exercise. If you’re training hard to build muscle but require relief of chronic joint pain, try daily supplementation with ProFlex 750. Use Ibuprofen sparingly.
Source: Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 38(5); 840-846, 2006.
http://www.ast-ss.com/research/cribb/research_reviews/rr_full_text.asp?rrID=523
just to play devils advocate ;D, pardon the pun loco
http://www.physorg.com/news126711822.html
Ibuprofen or acetaminophen in long-term resistance training increases muscle mass/strength
Taking daily recommended dosages of ibuprofen and acetaminophen caused a substantially greater increase over placebo in the amount of quadriceps muscle mass and muscle strength gained during three months of regular weight lifting, in a study by physiologists at the Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University.
my suggestion would be to avoid nsaids etc around workout time.
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just to play devils advocate ;D, pardon the pun loco
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/55/Bsd_daemon.jpg) ;D
http://www.physorg.com/news126711822.html
Ibuprofen or acetaminophen in long-term resistance training increases muscle mass/strength
Taking daily recommended dosages of ibuprofen and acetaminophen caused a substantially greater increase over placebo in the amount of quadriceps muscle mass and muscle strength gained during three months of regular weight lifting, in a study by physiologists at the Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University.
my suggestion would be to avoid nsaids etc around workout time.
Hey smoke! I was actually hoping you would read this and discuss. I was interested in your opinion about the study that AST's Dr. Paul Cribb mentioned.
But it seems even people at AST will play devils advocate on this. About five years before Dr. Paul Cribb posted that article on the AST website, AST's CEO, Paul Delia wrote:
"Cortsol is a very catabolic hormone released mainly to fight inflammation when injuries occur. The best time to address the cortisol issue is not after the fact (after training), but before.
Here's a little know trick that will do wonders for helping reduce cortisol release as a response to weight training. Take an anti-inflammatory BEFORE you train. About 45 minutes before will work fine. Not after you train, but before. Aspirin (Excedren), ibuprofen (Advil), or naproxen (Aleve) all will work for this purpose. I recommend rotating 400 milligrams ibuprofen with 325 milligrams aspirin - one day use ibuprofen and the next day aspirin. I would also add 1000 milligrams of vitamin C and 400IU of vitamin E at this time.
This supplement strategy will help drastically reduce training induced inflammation and in turn reduce cortisol release. This is a very effective and very inexpensive technique that works effectively to reduce training related muscle catabolism."
http://www.ast-ss.com/dev/qa_search/full_text.asp?ID=721
It seems like a contradiction, but it's probably because we don't yet understand enough about this and more research is needed.
Maybe the trick is in the timing, taking an anti-inflammatory 45 minutes before you train increases muscle mass/strength, while taking it after you train inhibits muscle gains?
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i would avoid his suggestion as continuous use of ibuprofen etc will have toxic effects on the liver.
he is right in that reducing cortisol during, post workout etc is a negative thing, but there are better safer strategies imo.
for example, drinking glucose will cause a release of insulin which blunts cortisol release from the adrenal cortex. Another supplemental approach is phosphotidlyserine which reduces cortisol and cissus quadrangularis.
his vitamin c suggestion is somewhat a catch 22 as vitamin c does reduce cortisol but it also reduces itself via alternative mechanisms, this is something i would avoid during workouts also.
the strategy would probably work for muscle growth as per the article i posted, benzodiazepines are another class of drugs that would blunt cortisol, remeron as, trazodone etc... there are many but id generally avoid them.
if you have specific questions fire away
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i would avoid his suggestion as continuous use of ibuprofen etc will have toxic effects on the liver.
he is right in that reducing cortisol during, post workout etc is a negative thing, but there are better safer strategies imo.
for example, drinking glucose will cause a release of insulin which blunts cortisol release from the adrenal cortex. Another supplemental approach is phosphotidlyserine which reduces cortisol and cissus quadrangularis.
his vitamin c suggestion is somewhat a catch 22 as vitamin c does reduce cortisol but it also reduces itself via alternative mechanisms, this is something i would avoid during workouts also.
the strategy would probably work for muscle growth as per the article i posted, benzodiazepines are another class of drugs that would blunt cortisol, remeron as, trazodone etc... there are many but id generally avoid them.
if you have specific questions fire away
Great info! Thanks smoke!
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so in order to grow the best i could take ibuprofen before my workouts and drink sugar during my workout ??
( liver problems aside)
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so in order to grow the best i could take ibuprofen before my workouts and drink sugar during my workout ??
( liver problems aside)
im not convinced that ibuprofen will help at all to be honest, its anti cortisol effects are not top of the line or anything and its negative effect on inflammation may lead to slower muscular adaptation, read less mass.
drink glucose during training and look into phosphotidylserine. Vitamin c reduces inflammation as i tried to say above but i was in a rush, so avoid that also. Liver toxicity has a host of problems and can lead to depression among other things. Training should allow your cortisol system to adapt as well, so i would allow it to happen somewhat.
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okay...so when should i avoid vitamin c exactly ? i have been taking it post workout ! lol... 1 gram actually...
usmokepole i put my 2 hours prior to working out asnd 2 hour post workout in your hands bro... if youd like t, id love for you to lay out what would be the "perfect" protocol
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okay...so when should i avoid vitamin c exactly ? i have been taking it post workout ! lol... 1 gram actually...
usmokepole i put my 2 hours prior to working out asnd 2 hour post workout in your hands bro... if youd like t, id love for you to lay out what would be the "perfect" protocol
All studies aside candi. Is what you're doing working for you? If so then why change it?
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Fish oil has anti inflammatory properties ;D
Amen.
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okay...so when should i avoid vitamin c exactly ? i have been taking it post workout ! lol... 1 gram actually...
usmokepole i put my 2 hours prior to working out asnd 2 hour post workout in your hands bro... if youd like t, id love for you to lay out what would be the "perfect" protocol
ya ill do you up somethign when im working at the supp store tom ;D, pretty much 8 hours of unadulterated internet.
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ya ill do you up somethign when im working at the supp store tom ;D, pretty much 8 hours of unadulterated internet.
awesome ! dude im pumped.
if you culd how about one for fat loss and one for muscle gain.. !
also dude i am doing a fat loss diet right now i devised i think you would find cool.. i p.m. it to tyou
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awesome ! dude im pumped.
if you culd how about one for fat loss and one for muscle gain.. !
also dude i am doing a fat loss diet right now i devised i think you would find cool.. i p.m. it to tyou
they would be somewhat similar with food choices constituting the major differences.
for weight gain, or mass
my preworkout meal would be 1.5 hours pre workout and would always have red meat for high amounts of arachidonic acid with a nightshade family veggie like potatoes and your choice of veggies aka spnach etc..
30 mins preworkout i would have half a protein shake of whey only to promote protein synthesis. During workout i would drink a shake consisting of BCAA'S and the more leucine the better as its effects are somewhat linear. As much as you could suffer down. I would have another shake 30 mins before the end of the workout with taurine and arginine for GH response with taurine replacing lost liver conjugation products and proper estrogen response. Have glucose in your shakes throughout at low doses. PWO a protein shake( the other half) and an hour later another red meat meal with a nicer carb like brown rice and veggies. Sorry have some creatine ethyl ester during workout.
Weight loss
i would stick to leaner sources of meat postworkout. Like a chicken meal, never a fish meal though because of the type of fat. I would also lower the carbs and eat more veggies. Protein shakes would remain the same although i would add skim milk and cut out glucose during workouts. Reason being milk is magical and seems to cause weightloss by itself and its BCAA content and low glucose is a good replacement. Pre workout i would add stim of your choice and possibly tyrosine for thyroxine production. Workout shake is still high BCAA;'s with perhaps some citrulline malate and no creatine(as it is lipogenic). postworkout the other shake, no glucose and hour later i would have a fish meal with little to no carbs other then veggies as the milk and previous meal supplied enough and glycogen depletion is ideal for weight loss, or partioning better yet.
some supps id add for weight loss would be fish oil, sesamin, forskolin, tyrosine and stim of choice
i would avoid stims during bulking as its hard to pack on that weight
with the red meat your trying to create inflammation (i know not the healthiest) and protein synthesis which all the supps and food should do. High amounts of protein=synthesis low amount at sustained release=anti catabolic not anabolic.
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dude im printing this off and also saving it to my hard driv. :)
lol usmokepole grazi your awesome
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usmoke, hey so we want t promote inflamation post workout,, right ? so would it be wise to take a couple caps of evening primrose oil at this time ?
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usmoke, hey so we want t promote inflamation post workout,, right ? so would it be wise to take a couple caps of evening primrose oil at this time ?
no, evening primrose oil is anti inflammatory due to its high GLA content. A good oil for that would be safflower oil which is inflammatory.
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no, evening primrose oil is anti inflammatory due to its high GLA content. A good oil for that would be safflower oil which is inflammatory.
damnit ! i tok it today post workout with out waiting for your response !
i thought omega 6 were purely pro -inflammatory...
oh well
hopefully two grams evening primrose oil wont hurt me too muh, will it?
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hopefully two grams evening primrose oil wont hurt me too muh, will it?
I'd go to the hospital just to be safe...
::)
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damnit ! i tok it today post workout with out waiting for your response !
i thought omega 6 were purely pro -inflammatory...
oh well
hopefully two grams evening primrose oil wont hurt me too muh, will it?
id definitely keep the primrose oil in the diet taken with fish oil, both have great health benefits. Its not the primrose its the GLA.Most 06's are inflammtory, gla is not :D. For example some sat fats are bad while coconut or lauric acid has a different metabolism and being a Medium chain triglyceride with caprylic acid has many health benefits. But rule of thumb, o6s are pro inflammaory, there are a few exceptions.
the hinderance on growth should be dose related, but to be safe keep it in your fish oil meal.