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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Ron on November 11, 2008, 05:56:04 PM

Title: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Ron on November 11, 2008, 05:56:04 PM
A county by county breakdown of the 2008 presidential elections show that once again most counties went Republican (red counties voted for McCain, blue for Obama).

(http://images.newsmax.com/misc/2008_Election_Map.jpg)
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Straw Man on November 11, 2008, 05:58:32 PM
There must be a LOT of people in those small patches of blue

btw - how much of that map is actually uninhabited land
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Hereford on November 11, 2008, 06:00:34 PM
The cities decide the elections. Always have.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: CQ on November 11, 2008, 06:05:45 PM
Ron, nice to have you stop by, but pull yourself together >:(

There are like 4 people living in some huge rural country, whereas cities are densly populated.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Ron on November 11, 2008, 06:07:40 PM
Quote
There are like 4 people living in some huge rural country, whereas cities are densly populated.


Correct - they are, the cities are populated, who always need some sort of services from the government, hence - aka Democratic. 

But I found the map very interesting, as there are also a number of cities and counties which are heavily populated that are more Republican too.

Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: 24KT on November 11, 2008, 06:08:19 PM
There must be a LOT of people in those small patches of blue

btw - how much of that map is actually uninhabited land

{LOL} Most of it.  ;D
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Straw Man on November 11, 2008, 06:09:56 PM


Correct - they are, the cities are populated, who always need some sort of services from the government, hence - aka Democratic

But I found the map very interesting, as there are also a number of cities and counties which are heavily populated that are more Republican too.



?????
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: drkaje on November 11, 2008, 06:12:50 PM
Ron,

Has anyone called you a homo today? :)
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Hedgehog on November 11, 2008, 06:19:09 PM
I'd like to see a demo map with age groups.

There I fear that the situation may be pretty critical for the Republicans.
There is a very real possibility that Democrats will continue to make inroads into the inner parts of USA.
Unless the Republicans can start to attract young voters again.
It used to be that 'liberal' was something derogatory to call a Democrat.
And Democrats were considered weak pussies. Somehow they got away from that image.
The Democrats have been very successful in painting Republicans as the old and out of touch party.
The Republicans don't help themselves either when using words like 'conservative' to describe themselves.
That oozes old people.
It helps even less when a 72 year old is elected as a candidate.
In touch with the young voter base?
I don't think so.
GOP needs to act fast and hard to not be wiped out.   
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Dos Equis on November 11, 2008, 06:21:05 PM
Very interesting.  

Also, in terms of the numer of states each candidate won, Obama won 28 + DC and McCain won 22.  http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/full/#val=P
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: tonymctones on November 11, 2008, 06:24:14 PM
Thats really weird it looks like Harris county in Texas went democrat, this is where I live and i find that really strange although if you go intown in certain areas they where heavily for obama.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: CQ on November 11, 2008, 06:25:43 PM
I'd like to see a demo map with age groups.

There I fear that the situation may be pretty critical for the Republicans.
There is a very real possibility that Democrats will continue to make inroads into the inner parts of USA.
Unless the Republicans can start to attract young voters again.
It used to be that 'liberal' was something derogatory to call a Democrat.
And Democrats were considered weak pussies. Somehow they got away from that image.
The Democrats have been very successful in painting Republicans as the old and out of touch party.
The Republicans don't help themselves either when using words like 'conservative' to describe themselves.
That oozes old people.
It helps even less when a 72 year old is elected as a candidate.
In touch with the young voter base?
I don't think so.
GOP needs to act fast and hard to not be wiped out.   

McCain failed massivly with young voters.  CNN exit polls  (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/04/exit.polls/) say the only age group he won was over 65 :-\

It wasn't just his age, it was that he "acted" old. Much of his rhetoric was old school talk. Plus to the Gen X crowd not being able to send an email is akin to not being able to make a phone call. It baffles me why he didn't just lie. Not like anyone was going to tape him sending an email.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: 2ND COMING on November 11, 2008, 06:48:00 PM
A county by county breakdown of the 2008 presidential elections show that once again most counties went Republican (red counties voted for McCain, blue for Obama).

(http://images.newsmax.com/misc/2008_Election_Map.jpg)

he won the popular vote and ofcourse the electoral vote....big masses of land doesnt mean shit
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Hedgehog on November 11, 2008, 07:43:48 PM
he won the popular vote and ofcourse the electoral vote....big masses of land doesnt mean shit
it does mean shit.
There are other elections other than the presidential too.
The problem for the Republicans are that the Democrats may actually be starting to contesting in areas where it previously never even wasn't close.
And if they are contesting because they are getting the younger voting generation, it's really bad news for the Republicans.
That means that the support for the Democrats will only get bigger for every day - literally - and the support for the Republicans will die off.
So in a few years these areas may be flooded with Democratic DA's, mayors, congressmen, school boards, city councils.
  That's a big concern for GOP.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Brixtonbulldog on November 11, 2008, 07:46:10 PM
Ok so if libs completely destroy everywhere else looks like I'm headed to OKLAHOMA!!!!  (sigh)
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: 240 is Back on November 11, 2008, 07:49:03 PM
You know what's *really* interesting?

Almost 30 of the 50 states have DEMOCRATS as senators.  58 seats, maybe?

Red states choose DEM leadership, very strange.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Brixtonbulldog on November 11, 2008, 07:51:27 PM
You know what's *really* interesting?

Almost 30 of the 50 states have DEMOCRATS as senators.  58 seats, maybe?

Red states choose DEM leadership, very strange.

Dems are better politicians.  They play the game better and have been since at LEAST 94.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: 240 is Back on November 11, 2008, 07:58:35 PM
Dems are better politicians.  They play the game better and have been since at LEAST 94.

Bush owned the white house for 8 years and congress for 6.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Buffgeek on November 11, 2008, 07:59:32 PM
Dems dont resign when they are caught cheating on their wives or smoking crack or pole or accepting bribes. rebulicans typically do.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: 2ND COMING on November 11, 2008, 07:59:37 PM
it does mean shit.
There are other elections other than the presidential too.
The problem for the Republicans are that the Democrats may actually be starting to contesting in areas where it previously never even wasn't close.
And if they are contesting because they are getting the younger voting generation, it's really bad news for the Republicans.
That means that the support for the Democrats will only get bigger for every day - literally - and the support for the Republicans will die off.
So in a few years these areas may be flooded with Democratic DA's, mayors, congressmen, school boards, city councils.
  That's a big concern for GOP.

thank you, i never knew that  ::)
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Buffgeek on November 11, 2008, 08:02:08 PM
it does mean shit.
There are other elections other than the presidential too.
The problem for the Republicans are that the Democrats may actually be starting to contesting in areas where it previously never even wasn't close.
And if they are contesting because they are getting the younger voting generation, it's really bad news for the Republicans.
That means that the support for the Democrats will only get bigger for every day - literally - and the support for the Republicans will die off.
So in a few years these areas may be flooded with Democratic DA's, mayors, congressmen, school boards, city councils.
  That's a big concern for GOP.

Yeah but you forget that these young people grow up and start paying taxes and having kids then start going WTF and start moving towards the right.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Straw Man on November 11, 2008, 08:09:00 PM
Dems dont resign when they are caught cheating on their wives or smoking crack or pole or accepting bribes. rebulicans typically do.

such as?
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: 240 is Back on November 11, 2008, 08:09:09 PM
Dems dont resign when they are caught cheating on their wives or smoking crack or pole or accepting bribes. rebulicans typically do.

Repub Senators Larry Craig and David Vitter didn't quit after their sex scandals.

Repub Senator Ted Stevens was convicted of a FELONY and chose to run for re-election.

What examples do you have of repubs that HAVE resigned lately?

Or, what 3 high-profile DEM senators have been busted in the last 2 years?

Kinda punches holes in your argument dude.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Straw Man on November 11, 2008, 08:15:09 PM
Repub Senators Larry Craig and David Vitter didn't quit after their sex scandals.

Repub Senator Ted Stevens was convicted of a FELONY and chose to run for re-election.

What examples do you have of repubs that HAVE resigned lately?

Or, what 3 high-profile DEM senators have been busted in the last 2 years?

Kinda punches holes in your argument dude.

could say Spitzer and McGreevy but they both resigned and Spitzer is not going to be charged with any crime and although McGreevy is a self-proclaimed "gay american"  I'm pretty sure that's still not a crime
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Dos Equis on November 11, 2008, 08:22:51 PM
Dems dont resign when they are caught cheating on their wives or smoking crack or pole or accepting bribes. rebulicans typically do.

In all fairness, the governors of New York and New Jersey did resign, along with the mayor of Detroit (but not without a fight).  And John Edwards had already lost the primary when his misdeeds came to light, so he couldn't really resign from anything.

(I was being sarcastic.)      

On the other hand, Rep. William Jefferson didn't resign, nor did Rep. Tim Mahoney, the mayor of L.A., or the mayor of S.F.  
 
We're about due for a mayor or governor to screw up pretty badly.  
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Straw Man on November 11, 2008, 08:26:43 PM
In all fairness, the governors of New York and New Jersey did resign, along with the mayor of Detroit (but not without a fight).  And John Edwards had already lost the primary when his misdeeds came to light, so he couldn't really resign from anything.

(I was being sarcastic.)      

On the other hand, Rep. William Jefferson didn't resign, nor did Rep. Tim Mahoney, the mayor of L.A., or the mayor of S.F.  
 
We're about due for a mayor or governor to screw up pretty badly.  

Edwards didn't hold an elective office and didn't break any laws

The mayors of LA and SF didn't break any laws either

Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Hedgehog on November 11, 2008, 08:26:54 PM
Dems are better politicians.  They play the game better and have been since at LEAST 94.

As far as who play the game better - I totally disagree.
Right now, yes the Democrats are dominant, and owns the game.
But in the mid 90's - it was all about the Republicans. Clinton's outstanding charisma (stuff like that are important in US politics) and decent record prevented the Republicans from trying to go up against him seriously in 96. But Gingrich, Rove, Cheney and other neo-cons dominated US domestic politics.
The Republicans won more and more gubernatorial and senator seats.
USA just got more red in general.
The Democrats were crushed and defeated when Bush entered. His years would put the final touch to the power shift that would make the Democrats an irrelevant party.
Instead the Democrats has revamped their party on some issues, they don't force issues that are sensitive anymore. They want gun control - not ban on guns. But it's not really an issue they press either.

Add to that a president who's killed the national economy, handled foreign relations questionably  and started an illegit war he wasn't even able to finish.

Then it's easy to see there's a problem.
But just as the late 90's and early 2000's belonged to the Republicans, these last two years have belonged to the Democrats.
And it may get even worse.
Republicans are the ones who should be guarding Obama with their lives.
When Palme was murdered in Sweden in 86, his party was down in ratings, were heading for a likely loss in the election.
But the following year his party got almost record high votes in the election and won easily.      
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: 24KT on November 11, 2008, 08:33:37 PM
As far as who play the game better - I totally disagree.
Right now, yes the Democrats are dominant, and owns the game.
But in the mid 90's - it was all about the Republicans. Clinton's outstanding charisma (stuff like that are important in US politics) and decent record prevented the Republicans from trying to go up against him seriously in 96. But Gingrich, Rove, Cheney and other neo-cons dominated US domestic politics.
The Republicans won more and more gubernatorial and senator seats.
USA just got more red in general.
The Democrats were crushed and defeated when Bush entered. His years would put the final touch to the power shift that would make the Democrats an irrelevant party.
Instead the Democrats has revamped their party on some issues, they don't force issues that are sensitive anymore. They want gun control - not ban on guns. But it's not really an issue they press either.

Add to that a president who's killed the national economy, handled foreign relations questionably  and started an illegit war he wasn't even able to finish.

Then it's easy to see there's a problem.
But just as the late 90's and early 2000's belonged to the Republicans, these last two years have belonged to the Democrats.
And it may get even worse.
Republicans are the ones who should be guarding Obama with their lives.
When Palme was murdered in Sweden in 86, his party was down in ratings, were heading for a likely loss in the election.
But the following year his party got almost record high votes in the election and won easily.      

As a general rule... Conservatives campaign far better than they govern
and the left usually governs far better than they campaign.

This year, ...they flipped the switch, and conservatives ran a stupid campaign consistent with their ability to govern
and the left, ran an almost flawless campaign... no doubt consistent with how they will govern.  :)
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: a_joker10 on November 11, 2008, 08:41:27 PM
America is a conservative nation
49 seats in congress are held social conservative democrats.

Move against guns and reverse Roe V Wade and all bets are off.

In 2010 there will be another adjustment in congress.
http://www.nationalatlas.gov/articles/boundaries/a_conApport.html
Most likely leading ot more seats in the south and the West.
Both Areas of social conservativism.

Most likely the liberal democrats will govern to closely to the left and will alienate all of those voters.
Thats what happened to Clinton.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Brixtonbulldog on November 11, 2008, 08:54:27 PM
I don't know guys.  I still see the repubs as their own worst enemy.  Dems always seem to want it more and willing to go through greater lengths to achieve political victory. 
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Hedgehog on November 11, 2008, 08:55:35 PM
America is a conservative nation
49 seats in congress are held social conservative democrats.

Move against guns and reverse Roe V Wade and all bets are off.

In 2010 there will be another adjustment in congress.
http://www.nationalatlas.gov/articles/boundaries/a_conApport.html
Most likely leading ot more seats in the south and the West.
Both Areas of social conservativism.

Most likely the liberal democrats will govern to closely to the left and will alienate all of those voters.
Thats what happened to Clinton.
brilliant analysis as usual joker.
One thing that is pretty interesting though is that here in Europe strategists considers party politics dead as far as young voters goes.
Ie, they vote on issues, not on a certain party.
I'm no genius, but it seems to me like this is how Obama and the Democrats approached the young vote this election - eg, allowing them to text vote on what issues to push. 

So it may be that Democrats will stick more to a moderate agenda, eg being populistic.
Time will tell.
They no doubt have an enormous machine to pick up trends and agendas.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Dos Equis on November 11, 2008, 09:04:45 PM
Edwards didn't hold an elective office and didn't break any laws

The mayors of LA and SF didn't break any laws either



Oh yes.  We need clarification.  All Edwards did was deceive the entire country into believing he was a choir boy while he was cheating on his wife who is suffering from cancer. 

The mayor of LA only had an affair with a reporter who covered him. 

The mayor of SF only had an affair with his campaign manager's wife. 
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Straw Man on November 11, 2008, 09:09:26 PM
Oh yes.  We need clarification.  All Edwards did was deceive the entire country into believing he was a choir boy while he was cheating on his wife who is suffering from cancer. 

The mayor of LA only had an affair with a reporter who covered him. 

The mayor of SF only had an affair with his campaign manager's wife. 

all correct

what's your point?

Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Al Doggity on November 11, 2008, 09:18:30 PM
The map in the original post is largely the result of gerrymandering.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Dos Equis on November 11, 2008, 09:21:33 PM
all correct

what's your point?



I could have said "I was being sarcastic" again, but you didn't get it the first time I said that. 

 
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Straw Man on November 11, 2008, 09:24:10 PM
I could have said "I was being sarcastic" again, but you didn't get it the first time I said that. 

oh you were being sarcarstic

so you meant the opposite

got it
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: a_joker10 on November 12, 2008, 06:35:51 AM
brilliant analysis as usual joker.
One thing that is pretty interesting though is that here in Europe strategists considers party politics dead as far as young voters goes.
Ie, they vote on issues, not on a certain party.
I'm no genius, but it seems to me like this is how Obama and the Democrats approached the young vote this election - eg, allowing them to text vote on what issues to push. 

So it may be that Democrats will stick more to a moderate agenda, eg being populistic.
Time will tell.
They no doubt have an enormous machine to pick up trends and agendas.

Obama has many built ins that will help him.
A solid 95% base with African Americns. This most likely won't change
The youth of America like him like they liked Clinton.
He could stay for 2 terms just on that.
If they don't pander to social conservative wing of their party and the protectionist wing.
I can't see how Pelosi or Reid will be able to keep the congress and senate.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Decker on November 12, 2008, 06:43:01 AM
A conservative country just elected a liberal in a smackdown election.

Modern Conservatism failed miserably.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: a_joker10 on November 12, 2008, 07:06:01 AM
That's why 11 new democrats in congress consider themselves social conservatives.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/262123
http://www.nashvillecitypaper.com/news.php?viewStory=64035
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Decker on November 12, 2008, 08:22:54 AM
That's why 11 new democrats in congress consider themselves social conservatives.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/262123
http://www.nashvillecitypaper.com/news.php?viewStory=64035
Too bad the top dog is a liberal who won the presidency in convincing fashion.

Mandate! Mandate! Mandate for rule!
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: a_joker10 on November 12, 2008, 08:30:54 AM
Too bad the top dog is a liberal who won the presidency in convincing fashion.

Mandate! Mandate! Mandate for rule!

He governs left.
He will be another Bill Clinton.
2 years with a liberal mandate then 6 years with republican senate and congress.

According to the latest news.
The first liberal causality might be Head of the energy committee.
60 democrats might side with the republicans to make it happen.

http://www.freep.com/article/20081112/OPINION04/811120329/1072/OPINION
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Decker on November 12, 2008, 08:35:08 AM
He governs left.
He will be another Bill Clinton.
2 years with a liberal mandate then 6 years with republican senate and congress.

According to the latest news.
The first liberal causality might be Head of the energy committee.
60 democrats might side with the republicans to make it happen.

http://www.freep.com/article/20081112/OPINION04/811120329/1072/OPINION
I think you're a little closer to the truth with that Clinton statement and that would be a mistake on Obama's part.

He should mirror FDR's efforts only without the same mistakes.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Hedgehog on November 12, 2008, 09:51:27 AM
I think you're a little closer to the truth with that Clinton statement and that would be a mistake on Obama's part.

He should mirror FDR's efforts only without the same mistakes.
IMO, words means little. It's action that means something.

Pelosi has said she wants and expects Obama to rule from the middle.
We'll see how that plays out in reality though.   
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Decker on November 12, 2008, 09:54:39 AM
IMO, words means little. It's action that means something.

Pelosi has said she wants and expects Obama to rule from the middle.
We'll see how that plays out in reality though.   
I agree.  All we've had are words to this point.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: 240 is Back on November 12, 2008, 09:57:13 AM
2 years with a liberal mandate then 6 years with republican senate and congress.

You think they'll lose NINE senate seats in 2010?

That would be a complete collapse.  Maybe they stop gaining seats, but losing NINE?
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: LurkerNoMore on November 12, 2008, 10:15:22 AM
Ever notice that the so called rural areas - in red - always seem to have the highest high school drop out rate, the highest unwed teenage pregnancy rate, the highest rate of poverty, highest rate of conservative religious view and tend to be Republicans,  etc.. 

All the smart people tend to move. 
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: TrapsMcLats on November 12, 2008, 10:51:43 AM
The educated areas vote blue.  Pretty simple.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: LurkerNoMore on November 12, 2008, 11:00:17 AM
The educated areas vote blue.  Pretty simple.

Bingo!
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: a_joker10 on November 12, 2008, 12:10:40 PM
You think they'll lose NINE senate seats in 2010?

That would be a complete collapse.  Maybe they stop gaining seats, but losing NINE?

It would actually be 7 seats.
We will see after the recounts.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: CQ on November 12, 2008, 12:44:20 PM
Ever notice that the so called rural areas - in red - always seem to have the highest high school drop out rate, the highest unwed teenage pregnancy rate, the highest rate of poverty, highest rate of conservative religious view and tend to be Republicans,  etc.. 

All the smart people tend to move. 

The educated areas vote blue.  Pretty simple.

Not PC to say, but yes it overwhelmingly seems that way from all the exit polls etc.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: a_joker10 on November 12, 2008, 12:55:49 PM
Not PC to say, but yes it overwhelmingly seems that way from all the exit polls etc.
You have now underlined the fundamental problem with the liberal democrats.
They accuse anyone not of themselves to be not equal.
Some liberals feel a need to help them while others feel guilty and side with them. But make no mistake they don't feel equal to them.

Soon enough the liberals will tear down the conservatives from inside the democrats.

It is happening already.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Dos Equis on November 12, 2008, 12:59:50 PM
You have now underlined the fundamental problem with the liberal democrats.
They accuse anyone not of themselves to be not equal.
Some liberals feel a need to help them while others feel guilty and side with them. But make no mistake they don't feel equal to them.

Soon enough the liberals will tear down the conservatives from inside the democrats.

It is happening already.

Tell me about it.  I am amazed at how many liberals use the "we're smarter than you" line.  They really talk out of both sides of their mouths.  On one hand, Republicans are poor dumb Christians who cling to their God and their guns.  On the other hand, Republicans are "the rich" who are out of touch with middle America. 
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: a_joker10 on November 12, 2008, 01:03:27 PM
Tell me about it.  I am amazed at how many liberals use the "we're smarter than you" line.  They really talk out of both sides of their mouths.  On one hand, Republicans are poor dumb Christians who cling to their God and their guns.  On the other hand, Republicans are "the rich" who are out of touch with middle America. 
Don't worry they say the same thing about the democrats that supported Clinton in the primaries.
Some how supporting differing social values makes you dumb or racist.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: CQ on November 12, 2008, 01:04:32 PM
Facts are facts, I never know why people get so upset.

If someone is more educated then someone they are - pretty simple ???

And exit polls show where they split.

And this is coming from someone with very limited formal education, I don't see why people act like it's a point ot get offended over. Someone with a masters degree has a higher level of formal education then I do. Fact, not like some insult to me.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: TrapsMcLats on November 12, 2008, 01:08:51 PM
great article related to this issue:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/28/us-education-election-obama-bush-mccain

How these gibbering numbskulls came to dominate WashingtonThe degradation of intelligence and learning in American politics results from a series of interlocking tragediesComments (559) 

George Monbiot guardian.co.uk, Tuesday October 28 2008 00.01 GMT The Guardian, Tuesday October 28 2008 Article history

How was it allowed to happen? How did politics in the US come to be dominated by people who make a virtue out of ignorance? Was it charity that has permitted mankind's closest living relative to spend two terms as president? How did Sarah Palin, Dan Quayle and other such gibbering numbskulls get to where they are? How could Republican rallies in 2008 be drowned out by screaming ignoramuses insisting that Barack Obama was a Muslim and a terrorist?

Like most people on my side of the Atlantic, I have for many years been mystified by American politics. The US has the world's best universities and attracts the world's finest minds. It dominates discoveries in science and medicine. Its wealth and power depend on the application of knowledge. Yet, uniquely among the developed nations (with the possible exception of Australia), learning is a grave political disadvantage.

There have been exceptions over the past century - Franklin Roosevelt, JF Kennedy and Bill Clinton tempered their intellectualism with the common touch and survived - but Adlai Stevenson, Al Gore and John Kerry were successfully tarred by their opponents as members of a cerebral elite (as if this were not a qualification for the presidency). Perhaps the defining moment in the collapse of intelligent politics was Ronald Reagan's response to Jimmy Carter during the 1980 presidential debate. Carter - stumbling a little, using long words - carefully enumerated the benefits of national health insurance. Reagan smiled and said: "There you go again." His own health programme would have appalled most Americans, had he explained it as carefully as Carter had done, but he had found a formula for avoiding tough political issues and making his opponents look like wonks.

It wasn't always like this. The founding fathers of the republic - Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton and others - were among the greatest thinkers of their age. They felt no need to make a secret of it. How did the project they launched degenerate into George W Bush and Sarah Palin?

On one level, this is easy to answer. Ignorant politicians are elected by ignorant people. US education, like the US health system, is notorious for its failures. In the most powerful nation on earth, one adult in five believes the sun revolves round the earth; only 26% accept that evolution takes place by means of natural selection; two-thirds of young adults are unable to find Iraq on a map; two-thirds of US voters cannot name the three branches of government; the maths skills of 15-year-olds in the US are ranked 24th out of the 29 countries of the OECD. But this merely extends the mystery: how did so many US citizens become so stupid, and so suspicious of intelligence? Susan Jacoby's book The Age of American Unreason provides the fullest explanation I have read so far. She shows that the degradation of US politics results from a series of interlocking tragedies.

One theme is both familiar and clear: religion - in particular fundamentalist religion - makes you stupid. The US is the only rich country in which Christian fundamentalism is vast and growing.

Jacoby shows that there was once a certain logic to its anti-rationalism. During the first few decades after the publication of The Origin of Species, for instance, Americans had good reason to reject the theory of natural selection and to treat public intellectuals with suspicion. From the beginning, Darwin's theory was mixed up in the US with the brutal philosophy - now known as social Darwinism - of the British writer Herbert Spencer. Spencer's doctrine, promoted in the popular press with the help of funding from Andrew Carnegie, John D Rockefeller and Thomas Edison, suggested that millionaires stood at the top of a scala natura established by evolution. By preventing unfit people being weeded out, government intervention weakened the nation. Gross economic inequalities were both justifiable and necessary.

Darwinism, in other words, became indistinguishable from the most bestial form of laissez-faire economics. Many Christians responded with revulsion. It is profoundly ironic that the doctrine rejected a century ago by such prominent fundamentalists as William Jennings Bryan is now central to the economic thinking of the Christian right. Modern fundamentalists reject the science of Darwinian evolution and accept the pseudoscience of social Darwinism.

But there were other, more powerful, reasons for the intellectual isolation of the fundamentalists. The US is peculiar in devolving the control of education to local authorities. Teaching in the southern states was dominated by the views of an ignorant aristocracy of planters, and a great educational gulf opened up. "In the south", Jacoby writes, "what can only be described as an intellectual blockade was imposed in order to keep out any ideas that might threaten the social order."

The Southern Baptist Convention, now the biggest Protestant denomination in the US, was to slavery and segregation what the Dutch Reformed Church was to apartheid in South Africa. It has done more than any other force to keep the south stupid. In the 1960s it tried to stave off desegregation by establishing a system of private Christian schools and universities. A student can now progress from kindergarten to a higher degree without any exposure to secular teaching. Southern Baptist beliefs pass intact through the public school system as well. A survey by researchers at the University of Texas in 1998 found that one in four of the state's state school biology teachers believed humans and dinosaurs lived on earth at the same time.

This tragedy has been assisted by the American fetishisation of self-education. Though he greatly regretted his lack of formal teaching, Abraham Lincoln's career is repeatedly cited as evidence that good education, provided by the state, is unnecessary: all that is required to succeed is determination and rugged individualism. This might have served people well when genuine self-education movements, like the one built around the Little Blue Books in the first half of the 20th century, were in vogue. In the age of infotainment, it is a recipe for confusion.

Besides fundamentalist religion, perhaps the most potent reason intellectuals struggle in elections is that intellectualism has been equated with subversion. The brief flirtation of some thinkers with communism a long time ago has been used to create an impression in the public mind that all intellectuals are communists. Almost every day men such as Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly rage against the "liberal elites" destroying America.

The spectre of pointy-headed alien subversives was crucial to the election of Reagan and Bush. A genuine intellectual elite - like the neocons (some of them former communists) surrounding Bush - has managed to pitch the political conflict as a battle between ordinary Americans and an over-educated pinko establishment. Any attempt to challenge the ideas of the rightwing elite has been successfully branded as elitism.

Obama has a lot to offer the US, but none of this will stop if he wins. Until the great failures of the US education system are reversed or religious fundamentalism withers, there will be political opportunities for people, like Bush and Palin, who flaunt their ignorance.

monbiot.com

• This article was amended on Tuesday November 4 2008. The Southern Baptist Convention is not the biggest denomination in the US. We meant to describe it as the biggest Protestant denomination. This has been corrected.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: a_joker10 on November 12, 2008, 01:24:30 PM
great article related to this issue:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/28/us-education-election-obama-bush-mccain

How these gibbering numbskulls came to dominate WashingtonThe degradation of intelligence and learning in American politics results from a series of interlocking tragediesComments (559) 

George Monbiot guardian.co.uk, Tuesday October 28 2008 00.01 GMT The Guardian, Tuesday October 28 2008 Article history

How was it allowed to happen? How did politics in the US come to be dominated by people who make a virtue out of ignorance? Was it charity that has permitted mankind's closest living relative to spend two terms as president? How did Sarah Palin, Dan Quayle and other such gibbering numbskulls get to where they are? How could Republican rallies in 2008 be drowned out by screaming ignoramuses insisting that Barack Obama was a Muslim and a terrorist?

Like most people on my side of the Atlantic, I have for many years been mystified by American politics. The US has the world's best universities and attracts the world's finest minds. It dominates discoveries in science and medicine. Its wealth and power depend on the application of knowledge. Yet, uniquely among the developed nations (with the possible exception of Australia), learning is a grave political disadvantage.

There have been exceptions over the past century - Franklin Roosevelt, JF Kennedy and Bill Clinton tempered their intellectualism with the common touch and survived - but Adlai Stevenson, Al Gore and John Kerry were successfully tarred by their opponents as members of a cerebral elite (as if this were not a qualification for the presidency). Perhaps the defining moment in the collapse of intelligent politics was Ronald Reagan's response to Jimmy Carter during the 1980 presidential debate. Carter - stumbling a little, using long words - carefully enumerated the benefits of national health insurance. Reagan smiled and said: "There you go again." His own health programme would have appalled most Americans, had he explained it as carefully as Carter had done, but he had found a formula for avoiding tough political issues and making his opponents look like wonks.

It wasn't always like this. The founding fathers of the republic - Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton and others - were among the greatest thinkers of their age. They felt no need to make a secret of it. How did the project they launched degenerate into George W Bush and Sarah Palin?

On one level, this is easy to answer. Ignorant politicians are elected by ignorant people. US education, like the US health system, is notorious for its failures. In the most powerful nation on earth, one adult in five believes the sun revolves round the earth; only 26% accept that evolution takes place by means of natural selection; two-thirds of young adults are unable to find Iraq on a map; two-thirds of US voters cannot name the three branches of government; the maths skills of 15-year-olds in the US are ranked 24th out of the 29 countries of the OECD. But this merely extends the mystery: how did so many US citizens become so stupid, and so suspicious of intelligence? Susan Jacoby's book The Age of American Unreason provides the fullest explanation I have read so far. She shows that the degradation of US politics results from a series of interlocking tragedies.

One theme is both familiar and clear: religion - in particular fundamentalist religion - makes you stupid. The US is the only rich country in which Christian fundamentalism is vast and growing.

Jacoby shows that there was once a certain logic to its anti-rationalism. During the first few decades after the publication of The Origin of Species, for instance, Americans had good reason to reject the theory of natural selection and to treat public intellectuals with suspicion. From the beginning, Darwin's theory was mixed up in the US with the brutal philosophy - now known as social Darwinism - of the British writer Herbert Spencer. Spencer's doctrine, promoted in the popular press with the help of funding from Andrew Carnegie, John D Rockefeller and Thomas Edison, suggested that millionaires stood at the top of a scala natura established by evolution. By preventing unfit people being weeded out, government intervention weakened the nation. Gross economic inequalities were both justifiable and necessary.

Darwinism, in other words, became indistinguishable from the most bestial form of laissez-faire economics. Many Christians responded with revulsion. It is profoundly ironic that the doctrine rejected a century ago by such prominent fundamentalists as William Jennings Bryan is now central to the economic thinking of the Christian right. Modern fundamentalists reject the science of Darwinian evolution and accept the pseudoscience of social Darwinism.

But there were other, more powerful, reasons for the intellectual isolation of the fundamentalists. The US is peculiar in devolving the control of education to local authorities. Teaching in the southern states was dominated by the views of an ignorant aristocracy of planters, and a great educational gulf opened up. "In the south", Jacoby writes, "what can only be described as an intellectual blockade was imposed in order to keep out any ideas that might threaten the social order."

The Southern Baptist Convention, now the biggest Protestant denomination in the US, was to slavery and segregation what the Dutch Reformed Church was to apartheid in South Africa. It has done more than any other force to keep the south stupid. In the 1960s it tried to stave off desegregation by establishing a system of private Christian schools and universities. A student can now progress from kindergarten to a higher degree without any exposure to secular teaching. Southern Baptist beliefs pass intact through the public school system as well. A survey by researchers at the University of Texas in 1998 found that one in four of the state's state school biology teachers believed humans and dinosaurs lived on earth at the same time.

This tragedy has been assisted by the American fetishisation of self-education. Though he greatly regretted his lack of formal teaching, Abraham Lincoln's career is repeatedly cited as evidence that good education, provided by the state, is unnecessary: all that is required to succeed is determination and rugged individualism. This might have served people well when genuine self-education movements, like the one built around the Little Blue Books in the first half of the 20th century, were in vogue. In the age of infotainment, it is a recipe for confusion.

Besides fundamentalist religion, perhaps the most potent reason intellectuals struggle in elections is that intellectualism has been equated with subversion. The brief flirtation of some thinkers with communism a long time ago has been used to create an impression in the public mind that all intellectuals are communists. Almost every day men such as Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly rage against the "liberal elites" destroying America.

The spectre of pointy-headed alien subversives was crucial to the election of Reagan and Bush. A genuine intellectual elite - like the neocons (some of them former communists) surrounding Bush - has managed to pitch the political conflict as a battle between ordinary Americans and an over-educated pinko establishment. Any attempt to challenge the ideas of the rightwing elite has been successfully branded as elitism.

Obama has a lot to offer the US, but none of this will stop if he wins. Until the great failures of the US education system are reversed or religious fundamentalism withers, there will be political opportunities for people, like Bush and Palin, who flaunt their ignorance.

monbiot.com

• This article was amended on Tuesday November 4 2008. The Southern Baptist Convention is not the biggest denomination in the US. We meant to describe it as the biggest Protestant denomination. This has been corrected.


It is articles like these that prove to me why America will head down the road to republican rule sooner than later.

By the way. This is what I was arguing against.
Quote
All the smart people tend to move.

Many smart people stay. open businesses and have successful lives.
Many people like the thought of living in a small town with small town values. That is why the migration over the last 50 years is to south and west.
http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/censr-7.pdf
Formal education, does not  make one person smarter then the other.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: TrapsMcLats on November 12, 2008, 01:34:07 PM
It [education] does not make a person smarter, but it exposes them to more options, and gives them a greater perspective.  If you take a god worshipping moron from the south, and explain to him the scientific method, how things are proven and disproven etc etc etc... and how this relates to god obviously not existing, he won't agree with you because he's a moron, and he was raised that way.  but he might see why people don't believe in god, and that will stick with him.  thusly, his children might grow up with a little more freedom of thought, and their children might have more freedom and on and on and on...  There's a reason each generation is generally more liberal than the previous one.

the reason i have a huge problem with black culture is because they refuse to educate themselves and thusly they remain impoverished and stuck in their ways.  education increases options and possibilities.  if you look at inner city areas, or where most of the poverty lies, you see a massive lack of education.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: a_joker10 on November 12, 2008, 01:35:37 PM
It [education] does not make a person smarter, but it exposes them to more options, and gives them a greater perspective.  If you take a god worshipping moron from the south, and explain to him the scientific method, how things are proven and disproven etc etc etc... and how this relates to god obviously not existing, he won't agree with you because he's a moron, and he was raised that way.  but he might see why people don't believe in god, and that will stick with him.  thusly, his children might grow up with a little more freedom of thought, and their children might have more freedom and on and on and on...  There's a reason each generation is generally more liberal than the previous one.

the reason i have a huge problem with black culture is because they refuse to educate themselves and thusly they remain impoverished and stuck in their ways.  education increases options and possibilities.  if you look at inner city areas, or where most of the poverty lies, you see a massive lack of education.

I take it you voted democrat.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Dos Equis on November 12, 2008, 01:39:31 PM
Don't worry they say the same thing about the democrats that supported Clinton in the primaries.
Some how supporting differing social values makes you dumb or racist.

Not only that, but we've gone from agree/disagree and right/wrong on issues to good vs. evil.  People constantly demonize those who have different political views. 
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Al Doggity on November 12, 2008, 02:09:45 PM
Not only that, but we've gone from agree/disagree and right/wrong on issues to good vs. evil.  People constantly demonize those who have different political views. 

Oh, come on. Your side plays that exact same game, only, some would argue, better and more often.  The dems are effete, rich elitists who don't understand the common man when that narrative fits.  They're a bunch of lazy  socialists looking for hand outs when that one's convenient. Theirvalues are "un-Patriotic" or "un American" or however Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachman or whoever feels like phrasing it on any given day.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: TrapsMcLats on November 12, 2008, 03:11:57 PM
I take it you voted democrat.

of course, i am a thinking man.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: timfogarty on November 12, 2008, 03:22:13 PM
On one hand, Republicans are poor dumb Christians who cling to their God and their guns.  On the other hand, Republicans are "the rich" who are out of touch with middle America. 

psst.  the rich republicans were just using the evangelical republicans to get what they wanted, but then the evangelical republicans took over.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Buffgeek on November 12, 2008, 03:45:18 PM
psst.  the rich republicans were just using the evangelical republicans to get what they wanted, but then the evangelical republicans took over.

LOL that statement reminds me of this classic clip:

Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Hereford on November 12, 2008, 03:50:20 PM
Did you all know that Ron is a Republican?

YEA!!!! TALK SHIT NOW MUTHAFUCKAS!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Dos Equis on November 12, 2008, 07:21:49 PM
Oh, come on. Your side plays that exact same game, only, some would argue, better and more often.  The dems are effete, rich elitists who don't understand the common man when that narrative fits.  They're a bunch of lazy  socialists looking for hand outs when that one's convenient. Theirvalues are "un-Patriotic" or "un American" or however Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachman or whoever feels like phrasing it on any given day.

I don't have a side.  I don't condone the good vs. evil arguments regardless of who is making them.  I actually created a (crickets) thread a while back that talked about how Clinton was demonized.  I didn't approve then and don't approve today.  http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=149392.0
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Al Doggity on November 12, 2008, 07:50:41 PM
Most of your positions are conservative and most of the ideas and politicians you choose to defend are ,as well. You may throw up a thread that doesn't toe the party line every now and again, but you have a side. No need for bullshit.

As to the content of your statement, you only pointed out the fact that one side equates political positions with morality. I'm just pointing out that it's not exclusive to either party. You could actually argue that the left co-opted that kind of morality posturing from the right as a result of the shift in politics in the 90s.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: a_joker10 on November 12, 2008, 08:09:10 PM
Quote
You have now underlined the fundamental problem with the liberal democrats.
They accuse anyone not of themselves to be not equal.
Some liberals feel a need to help them while others feel guilty and side with them. But make no mistake they don't feel equal to them.

Soon enough the liberals will tear down the conservatives from inside the democrats.

It is happening already.

It [education] does not make a person smarter, but it exposes them to more options, and gives them a greater perspective.  If you take a god worshipping moron from the south, and explain to him the scientific method, how things are proven and disproven etc etc etc... and how this relates to god obviously not existing, he won't agree with you because he's a moron, and he was raised that way.  but he might see why people don't believe in god, and that will stick with him.  thusly, his children might grow up with a little more freedom of thought, and their children might have more freedom and on and on and on...  There's a reason each generation is generally more liberal than the previous one.

the reason i have a huge problem with black culture is because they refuse to educate themselves and thusly they remain impoverished and stuck in their ways.  education increases options and possibilities.  if you look at inner city areas, or where most of the poverty lies, you see a massive lack of education.

I take it you voted democrat.

of course, i am a thinking man.

As I said in the first post.
Its only a matter of time until liberal Democrats chase out the conservative democrats and its happening already.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: timfogarty on November 12, 2008, 11:27:48 PM
Its only a matter of time until liberal Democrats chase out the conservative democrats and its happening already.

I have no problem with conservative democrats.  Disloyal ones should be given the boot though.
Title: Re: America is still conservative regarding areas, except in big cities
Post by: Dos Equis on November 13, 2008, 12:49:53 PM
Most of your positions are conservative and most of the ideas and politicians you choose to defend are ,as well. You may throw up a thread that doesn't toe the party line every now and again, but you have a side. No need for bullshit.

As to the content of your statement, you only pointed out the fact that one side equates political positions with morality. I'm just pointing out that it's not exclusive to either party. You could actually argue that the left co-opted that kind of morality posturing from the right as a result of the shift in politics in the 90s.

Okay son.  You believe whatever you want.  I pick the position or candidate I think is right, regardless of party.  I even considered voting for Obama.  You should know by now I don't care how people want to classify me. 

In any event, I pointed out that both sides demonize the other.  If you bothered to read the link I provided, it was a discussion about how Clinton was demonized, which I didn't approve of, just like I oppose demonizing Bush.  People aren't evil just because they disagree with you.  As the title to the commentary I posted says, "maybe 'evil one" is just wrong."