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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Training Q&A => Topic started by: tbombz on July 24, 2010, 02:25:37 PM
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the decline press is always hated on. "nobody needs any more lower chest"- commonly accepted among alot of top competitive bodybuilders. the main funtcion of the pectoralis is to pull the arm down and across the body. key word DOWN and across. out of all three bench variety, incline regular and decline, only the decline puts the arm's ROM directly along the path of the Pectoralis' contraction. anecdotally, the decline allows for the least amount of stress/weight put on the deltoid and makes it much easier to get a full and strong contraction in the pec.
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It'll give you tits bro. I do them randomly maybe 1-2 every couple of months, but when I used them every week, I was only 210-215 and pretty lean, but I developed tits. It is cool to flex them and watch them bounce around and back then some of then girls that hung around thought it was great, but I didn't really dig the shape of my chest like that, so I cut down on them and used more flat and upper movements.
Some guys use a bench with a box under one end for a less decline and use DBs, ever try that? I have not.
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the decline press is always hated on. "nobody needs any more lower chest"- commonly accepted among alot of top competitive bodybuilders. the main funtcion of the pectoralis is to pull the arm down and across the body. key word DOWN and across. out of all three bench variety, incline regular and decline, only the decline puts the arm's ROM directly along the path of the Pectoralis' contraction. anecdotally, the decline allows for the least amount of stress/weight put on the deltoid and makes it much easier to get a full and strong contraction in the pec.
i dig declines big time......imho......it is a pure pec movement.....the stress is off the delts and put squarely on the chest......sensational movement!
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i dig declines big time......imho......it is a pure pec movement.....the stress is off the delts and put squarely on the chest......sensational movement!
Post a pic of your tits. :D
I agree about the shoulder stress, but tbombz is a "bodybuilder", that means a thick, even chest top to bottom.
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So, you either have the ability to build chest muscles or you don't.
Why not just build larger "upper" pecs (yeah, right)-- and then let them sag like old lady tits as you get older?
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So, you either have the ability to build chest muscles or you don't.
Why not just build larger "upper" pecs (yeah, right)-- and then let them sag like old lady tits as you get older?
Maybe I'm not understanding you here..........are you of the theory that you cannot increase the size/thickness of your upper chest?
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Most guy's fine the lower pec's (including the outer sides) easy to develop, even with the standard BP or flys. Perhaps too easy to develop, at the cost of making the upper pec's (tend to be much harder to develop) look flat and small.Tragic for a pure BB'er. Declines (BB/DB) are an excellent lower pec developer, if you are into that heavy lower boob thing. Add regular dip for another way to influence the lowers..
For a different slant, do dips with the knuckles facing forward, and wide out elbows. The stretch can be unbelievable at first. Tends to focus on the inner cleavage (yeah I know, usually a term for women) of the pecs, pec/delt tie in and portions of the upper pec's. Preferred using a "V" bar. Can also have the knuckles facing in. Caution is advised with this exercise. Not for everyone. Good Luck.
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the idea that thick lower pecs will not look aesthetic, or will somehow look feminine and like "boobs" is just plain rediculous. show me ONE bodybuilder with a massive lower chest and non existant upper chest. and lets see if it looks bad. even in that case, which you wont find because in order for the lower pecs to be massive the upper pecs would have to have gotten worked pretty good as well, the dudes pecs wouldnt look ugly, they just wouldnt look ideal when compared to the top bodybuilders.
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Flawed logic in so many ways. Just really think about it. Good luck.
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Most guy's fine the lower pec's (including the outer sides) easy to develop, even with the standard BP or flys. Perhaps too easy to develop, at the cost of making the upper pec's (tend to be much harder to develop) look flat and small.Tragic for a pure BB'er. Declines (BB/DB) are an excellent lower pec developer, if you are into that heavy lower boob thing. Add regular dip for another way to influence the lowers..
For a different slant, do dips with the knuckles facing forward, and wide out elbows. The stretch can be unbelievable at first. Tends to focus on the inner cleavage (yeah I know, usually a term for women) of the pecs, pec/delt tie in and portions of the upper pec's. Preferred using a "V" bar. Can also have the knuckles facing in. Caution is advised with this exercise. Not for everyone. Good Luck.
JPM
I am one of those that suffer from lower pecs and outer sides that develop MUCH faster/easier then the top of my pecs. My upper pecs look flat in comparison and I'm not happy about that. Aside from the knucles-in dips, what else can I do to develop my upper pecs as fast a possible? (btw its tough to do the dip routine you mentioned as my gym only has the straight [actually slightly bowed out] dip handles).
This is my current routine (started 3 weeks ago)
Incline DB press 2 x 8
Flat DB press 2x8
Incline DB flyes 2x8
Dips (knuckles in as i can, though not perfect 90deg) 2 x failure
(then a couple of triceps exercises)
Your advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks
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the idea that thick lower pecs will not look aesthetic, or will somehow look feminine and like "boobs" is just plain rediculous. show me ONE bodybuilder with a massive lower chest and non existant upper chest. and lets see if it looks bad. even in that case, which you wont find because in order for the lower pecs to be massive the upper pecs would have to have gotten worked pretty good as well, the dudes pecs wouldnt look ugly, they just wouldnt look ideal when compared to the top bodybuilders.
Show me one top bodybuilder that spends alot of time doing decline presses. You said yourself it s not a common practice.
What is your goal in bringing this up?
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I can't find any anatomy charts that show separate "upper" and "lower" pectoral musculature...
Man boobs are where it's at.
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Show me one top bodybuilder that spends alot of time doing decline presses. You said yourself it s not a common practice.
What is your goal in bringing this up?
youll have to look pre-2000 for top bodybuilders doing lots of decline. know how guys always say that today's bodybuilders cant match the side chest pose of the guys from arnolds era? DECLINE PRESS.. nobody does it anymore.. everybody is obsessed with getting a "shelf" under their neck from a big upper chest.. that shelf sure does look good, but only if youve already got big pecs
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the decline press is always hated on. "nobody needs any more lower chest"- commonly accepted among alot of top competitive bodybuilders. the main funtcion of the pectoralis is to pull the arm down and across the body. key word DOWN and across. out of all three bench variety, incline regular and decline, only the decline puts the arm's ROM directly along the path of the Pectoralis' contraction. anecdotally, the decline allows for the least amount of stress/weight put on the deltoid and makes it much easier to get a full and strong contraction in the pec.
heres a link to dorian yates giving a lecture on chest training.. check it out.. go to 9:20 for the section where he talks about decline press...
http://mdtv.musculardevelopment.com/lifestyles/2010-md-spring-seminar/2660-gaspari-nutrition-presents-the-md-seminar-dorian-yates-chest-training.html
also starts at 9:20 here.. but it cuts off before he is finished
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youll have to look pre-2000 for top bodybuilders doing lots of decline. know how guys always say that today's bodybuilders cant match the side chest pose of the guys from arnolds era? DECLINE PRESS.. nobody does it anymore.. everybody is obsessed with getting a "shelf" under their neck from a big upper chest.. that shelf sure does look good, but only if youve already got big pecs
Not just that but the "side chest" has become the "side bicep", the chest is hardly the focus of that pose anymore.
Now I just did a quick google and I couldn't find any pics of Arnold decline pressing, however in this pic here I think you can clearly see that his upper chest is shelf like and the way he holds that pose displays a side chest.......does that mean he didn't do declines? No, but I doubt his chest would have developed any better had he done them often. I found pics of him flat benching and incline pressing.
(http://images-partners.google.com/images?q=tbn:IPLL1Ee5nwIynM::http://bodybuilding.ericsgym.com/trainingarticles/images/arnold_chest.jpg)
If you can find anything else on this, post it up.
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Ive never liked decline and have always preferred weighted dips to them but I think i may add them in for my chest work out since I am limited in exercises b/c of my bad shoulder
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Not just that but the "side chest" has become the "side bicep", the chest is hardly the focus of that pose anymore.
Now I just did a quick google and I couldn't find any pics of Arnold decline pressing, however in this pic here I think you can clearly see that his upper chest is shelf like and the way he holds that pose displays a side chest.......does that mean he didn't do declines? No, but I doubt his chest would have developed any better had he done them often. I found pics of him flat benching and incline pressing.
(http://images-partners.google.com/images?q=tbn:IPLL1Ee5nwIynM::http://bodybuilding.ericsgym.com/trainingarticles/images/arnold_chest.jpg)
If you can find anything else on this, post it up.
If i recall correctly, Serge Nubret did a lot of decline work on his chest pressing-flyes precontest.
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The whole of the pectoral muscle structure (major-lower, minor-upper) are worked together when doing declines.The main focus and work load is put upon the lower (major) portion. The upper pecs (minor) are receiving much less effort. Same thing with the flat BP, the lowers take over the main movement or function. The decline press is indeed underrated , but really not needed by most men. Unless they have a need for thick lower boobs. To hit the lower, inner and portions of the upper pec's the wide gripped dip may be preferred, in most cases..
How bad would that side chest shot of Arnold be if his upper (shelf) pec were flatter and less developed? The reason that the upper pecs dominate when considering a superior looking total chest.
Body-M: Might try tbe BP to the neck (Gironda style) with a wide grip, elbows back. But have a training partner (or safe stop's, etc) stand by. Not designed for heavy work, moderate weight suggested as this is a pure BB'ing movement. Go easy and light at first. Can also be done with DB's, with attention to keeping them inline with the throat/neck, elbows wide out. Can do these on a incline bench. Though too high an angle can shift the work load to front delts more than the pec's. Pec Deck (with elbow pads, not grips held out), with the elbows kept high and inline with the head. Cable crossovers. bend at the elbows a bit. Crossover high to head position. The flat/inclines or knelling version. Front presses, or most any other overhead pressing, will hit the upper pecs also, but to a lesser degree. Good Luck.
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normally I have tried both lowering bar till chest and going further more till chin, My lower chest got a good pump after the second motion(almost touching the chin).Many a times few forget about excecuting the excercise in the right technique and stop half way during negative,but otherwise how many of you rely on Decline dumbell press?are dumbells really effective ?
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I think folks here would be surprised to see just exactly what the pectoralis "minor" looks like, its origins and insertions. If you're thinking it's a big solid muscle group like the pec major, quads, or whatever, you are sadly mistaken.
Take a look:
(http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x263/timeamajorova/PectoralisMinor.gif)
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Decline presses are indeed underrated - I prefer them to flat bench anyday. I also do decline flyes which are also good too.
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My upper chest is over developed, I could set a pop can on it, my lower chest is non existent. I started doing decline mainly on chest day, and I've gained chest strength like never before. As far as I can tell it does everything flat BP does and more!
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Dy-Lex: I stand corrected to mislabeling minor and major.
Eye C.: your muscle inserts/bone leverage have a lot to do with the better development of your upper chest. Most of the stress is transferred to the upper potions. I'm guessing that you also have a higher rib box than most. For the most part, top benchers have better strength balance from the upper/lower pecs, anterior delts and triceps. And their all firing off as a almost equal power unit when pressing.
As stated before, declines are an underrated movement. Most guy's find that regular chest exercises hit the lowers pretty well. If like Eye-C, if one needs declines than do them, but maybe not to the extent of over developing them. Good Luck.
Side Bar: one of my bud's ,who never workout in his life, tried benching for the first time. Put up 230 for a couple of rep's fairly easy. Got up off the bench picked up his 40oz and never was seen to bench again. Weighted around 220-230 at the time. This was on a stiff, narrow exercise bar, not an Olympic bar. Some are born as natural benchers, most are not.
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Nasser did a lot of decline presses and flyes
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Eye C.: your muscle inserts/bone leverage have a lot to do with the better development of your upper chest. Most of the stress is transferred to the upper potions. I'm guessing that you also have a higher rib box than most. For the most part, top benchers have better strength balance from the upper/lower pecs, anterior delts and triceps. And their all firing off as a almost equal power unit when pressing.
As stated before, declines are an underrated movement. Most guy's find that regular chest exercises hit the lowers pretty well. If like Eye-C, if one needs declines than do them, but maybe not to the extent of over developing them. Good Luck.
I didn't know a part of getbig existed anymore where people were helpful and polite! ;D
My chest and ribcage is shaped a lot like tbombz I think. I remember a picture he posted a while back.
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Rated accurately, cuz it sucks. Leg presses and upright rows, too. Suck.
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I didn't know a part of getbig existed anymore where people were helpful and polite! ;D
My chest and ribcage is shaped a lot like tbombz I think. I remember a picture he posted a while back.
i have a high, short chest. genetically its my weakest muscle, while my shoulders are just about my strongest. ive always had a hell of a time getting a good contraction throughout my pecs., and never been able to build up my pecs very much.
the decline effectively allows me to use my pecs without the shoulders coming into play (except a tiny bit of course), and this has been huge for me
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the decline effectively allows me to use my pecs without the shoulders coming into play (except a tiny bit of course), and this has been huge for me
I understand you liking it because of this aspect alone. People also like it because it has a low ROM and they can feel stronger.
But, I've always thought someone's chest will grow in the manner in which it was genetically designed to do so, for the most part.
In other words, I've seen people claim certain exercises target the inner chest. So, in theory, if these were the only exercise done, they'd have all inner chest and nothing else? Doesn't make sense to me. I feel the same way about the decline.
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i have always liked the decline press......and it is good to hear Dorian mention that he used the exercise as his main mass builder for chest.......pretty good endorsement for the decline by a 6 time Olympia winner!
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The decline also gives you a great deal of leverage. That feeling alone could give you an extry kick in the ass to work harder. I don't like seeing folks use too steep of a decline w/o a spotter.
Whole lotta blood rushing to the head-- and then on top of that, some folks like to hold their breath while they press the weight up.
I'm sure the decline has its place in everyday lifting regimens... just not in mine. Each to his own.
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Whole lotta blood rushing to the head-- and then on top of that, some folks like to hold their breath while they press the weight up.
That’s one of the primary reasons I dislike the movement.
Gironda Dips - or as close as I can get to them with parallel handles - work best for me (JPM offered me some excellent tips about 2 years ago).
Scott once claimed that he doesn’t use them often so as to preserve their effectiveness, but I use them more often than not and always feel them the next day - usually, several.
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I'm actually weaker on declines for some reason. Granted i dont do them that often.
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I'm actually weaker on declines for some reason. Granted i dont do them that often.
Weaker on declines than flat benching? That is strange fo sho!
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Weaker on declines than flat benching? That is strange fo sho!
The only reason i have is the decline bench at my gym is way to steep and i just grab the bar and lift it so i wont pass out, while with flat bench i adjust my grip 2-3 times before lifting the bar.
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I'm actually weaker on declines for some reason. Granted i dont do them that often.
Holy SH*T!!!
Where've you been?
:)
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(JPM offered me some excellent tips about 2 years ago).
Please share said tips
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Read from here down:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=298998.msg4276449#msg4276449
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That’s one of the primary reasons I dislike the movement.
Gironda Dips - or as close as I can get to them with parallel handles - work best for me (JPM offered me some excellent tips about 2 years ago).
Scott once claimed that he doesn’t use them often so as to preserve their effectiveness, but I use them more often than not and always feel them the next day - usually, several.
tried these today on a dip machine im not sure if I could do these free weight form wise, I didnt really feel it in the chest during the exercise but afterwards i felt it in my inner chest...
Like jpm said im one of those many whos outer pecs grow easier than the inner, ive got slabs of meat on the outer portion but the inner not so much so hopefully this will add to it
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I suspect a machine would hamper the ability to employ the necessary form for this exercise‘s effectiveness.
Try them without.
You may surprise yourself.
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I suspect a machine would hamper the ability to employ the necessary form for this exercise‘s effectiveness.
Try them without.
You may surprise yourself.
whats proper form?
I actually was kinda suprised with the weight I was able to use I figured I would have to lighten up the weight quite a bit but this was on a machine and I normally do regular dips.
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Concave arch the entire length of your body from head to toe.
Feet should be positioned about in line with your face.
Toes plantar-flexed.
Head is tilted down with the chin tucked.
Hand & elbow position is critical.
I try to envision pushing my elbows forward of my body during the movement to keep them flared out properly.
The hands are positioned on the end of the dipping handles such that the butts contact (near) the middle of your palm.
The knuckles of both hands should face towards a point in front of your body's midline.
If I can find Larry Scott’s article, I’ll post it here for you guys.
And I hope that JPM doesn’t mind me sharing this - I couldn’t find it in my pm’s so I’m presuming he posted it on the public forum during one of our discussions:
Some guys will use potholders or sponges (like those used to wash a car) to place on the dipping bars so that the hands have something to “dig” into.
It helps with comfort & balance.
JPM also recommended the grip I now use.
Remember, this movement was originally performed on v-shaped bars.
The adapted grip I initially tried - even with wraps - left my wrists sore for days afterwards.
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I don't like doing them, although the amount of weight I can handle is nice for the ego. I just don't like my body tilted down with blood rushing into my head while handling a heavy weight, plus I feel like my neck is too exposed should there be some sort of accident. Like Tbombz, pecs are my weakest bodypart, but shoulders are about my best. I've brought my chest up a lot recently though, primarily through dumbells and cable exercises. I cheat on a flat barbel bench press anyways by arching my back and utilizing my lower pec region and exploding up just short of locking out my elbows. The only barbel exercise for chest I take seriously is inclines, and thats only when I mix it up from dumbbells once in a while.
Just do weighted dips. It's safer(imo) and you can tilt your body forward to hit the chest and tris in a differing ways. Just my .02.
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tell you what makes my overall pecs sore as hell is DECLINE FLIES!
do that for a few weeks and it helps a lot in overall chest development. stretch really far down and contract the hell out of them at the top.
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I don't like doing them, although the amount of weight I can handle is nice for the ego. I just don't like my body tilted down with blood rushing into my head while handling a heavy weight, plus I feel like my neck is too exposed should there be some sort of accident. Like Tbombz, pecs are my weakest bodypart, but shoulders are about my best. I've brought my chest up a lot recently though, primarily through dumbells and cable exercises. I cheat on a flat barbel bench press anyways by arching my back and utilizing my lower pec region and exploding up just short of locking out my elbows. The only barbel exercise for chest I take seriously is inclines, and thats only when I mix it up from dumbbells once in a while.
Just do weighted dips. It's safer(imo) and you can tilt your body forward to hit the chest and tris in a differing ways. Just my .02.
I personally know two people that have torn their pecs doing dips.........safer? I don't think so, AXA.
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i think one major point here that nobody seems to be retaining is that the purpouse of the pectoralis is to pull the arm down and across the body. the decline makes you move your arms down and across your body. flat bench is not down and across, but just across. the farther away from decline one moves, the closer to incline, the less pec involvement and the more shoulder.
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i think one major point here that nobody seems to be retaining is that the purpouse of the pectoralis is to pull the arm down and across the body. the decline makes you move your arms down and across your body. flat bench is not down and across, but just across. the farther away from decline one moves, the closer to incline, the less pec involvement and the more shoulder.
"Nobody?"
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ive been confused by your posts in this thread dyslexic. can tell if your being sarcastic in your comments or not.
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i think one major point here that nobody seems to be retaining is that the purpouse of the pectoralis is to pull the arm down and across the body. the decline makes you move your arms down and across your body. flat bench is not down and across, but just across. the farther away from decline one moves, the closer to incline, the less pec involvement and the more shoulder.
agree. thats why the decline fly with moderate heavy weight is soo good. brings the arm down and across the body. do 3 sets with around 60-70 pound DBs and the next day your ENTIRE chest will be sore as hell. especially the hard to hit inner pecs.
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ill see if i can try those out today worm. my gym only has one decline bench and it is hooked up to the bench supports so flys cant be done on it, so the only way ill be able to do it is if i take some dumbells over to the sit-up bench that adjusts to a big decline. im on crutches so unless theres somebody to help me get the bells over i might not do em.
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yeah. its very hard to get them in place.
i use the black rubber ones for this, so i can throw them down when done.
to get started i usually have them on the floor, laying on their side, so they are standing straight up, then i lay back, and grab each with one hand to get them in position. little scary the first few times, but once you get used to it, it gets pretty easy.
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i think one major point here that nobody seems to be retaining is that the purpouse of the pectoralis is to pull the arm down and across the body. the decline makes you move your arms down and across your body. flat bench is not down and across, but just across. the farther away from decline one moves, the closer to incline, the less pec involvement and the more shoulder.
Says who? Sure seems like the purpose could be to pull the arm straight across the chest, this movement would also develop the pec muscle.
Maybe flat flyes is the most underrated chest exercise?
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look at the anatomy of the chest. it connects to arm pit to the sternum. down and across the body.
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look at the anatomy of the chest. it connects to arm pit to the sternum. down and across the body.
So it's not connected all the way up the sternum?
(http://www.fitstep.com/Advanced/Anatomy/Graphics/pectoralis-major-anatomy.gif)
http://www.fitstep.com/Advanced/Anatomy/Chest.htm
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yeah, the chest is involved in any motion where the arm is moved across the body,
whether its down and across and the chest is doing all the work,
if its straight across and still mostly chest but the shoulder start to help a little more,
or across and up where the chest is doing alot of the work but so is the shoulders.
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Jay said in a couple of his videos that he built his chest and MAINLY his UPPER chest doing a lot of declines..
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Jay said in a couple of his videos that he built his chest and MAINLY his UPPER chest doing a lot of declines..
Links?
For the record, I think declines are a useful movement in the overall development of the chest, however I do no think they are the best exercise. My personal experience leads me to see them as a "once in awhile" add on movement.
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Links?
For the record, I think declines are a useful movement in the overall development of the chest, however I do no think they are the best exercise. My personal experience leads me to see them as a "once in awhile" add on movement.
When he trains chest in "One step closer" nearly at the end of the workout when he does declines..and in his dvd "from Jay to Z", also in the end of his routine when he does declines.
As i recall he also said that when he does declines he tries to touch his chest with his chin in order to get a better contraction..
Theres also a vid over at md's video section with Dorian training Zach Khan when he was still an amateur and he has him do declines instead of flat benching.
It feels a bit uncomfortable though with all this blood rushing into your head im feeling that my head is going to explode or im gonna have a stroke in a ny minute lol. Thats why i prefer doing them on a flat bench, with couple 45lbs plates under just to create a slight decline angle.
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yeah, the chest is involved in any motion where the arm is moved across the body,
whether its down and across and the chest is doing all the work,
if its straight across and still mostly chest but the shoulder start to help a little more,
or across and up where the chest is doing alot of the work but so is the shoulders.
bro, you think way to much about this stuff.....just lift the damn weight, and see if it works...
bench
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bro, you think way to much about this stuff.....just lift the damn weight, and see if it works...
bench
its not that i think too much. i never did declines. ive always had a weak chest and a hard time getting a strong pec contraction without a strong delt contraction going along with it. declines have allowed me to build up my chest without hiting my shoulders.
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Dizzy,
Did I read that you're taking classes for something?
I don't know what you're studying for, but did you ever think of becoming an exercise scientist?
I'm talking about the kind of people Poliquin cites in his articles and books.
You obviously like the science behind the training, and I believe you're interested & disciplined enough to stick out the schooling.
If you learn your shit, get published, and make a name for yourself, I'm sure you could make some very good money coaching, consulting, training - whatever - at the college, pro, Olympic, etc. levels.
And, you'd be doing something you love.
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One of the current idea's being, is that it is not so much muscle contraction but rather the Time Under Tension (TUT) that produces the most and fastest results. TUT requires that never a full contraction or a full stretch (nothing even near total ROM) is done. Rather the reps are kept mid range and preformed rather quickly. Keeping tension on the working muscle at all times during the set preformed.
This would be considered partial rep training (many other ways to preform partial's...this is just one of them) which quite a few very huge men adapt to when working out. In fact just about every exceptional muscular large man I have witnessed (in person...including some Pro's) follows this type of TUT workout. It's mid range reps than seem the most effective, for most men.
You may not get super strong when training TUT style for the pecs/chest but you may get much larger and rather quickly. Quite a few BB'ers using 240-260 TUT style for benches have more impressive chest that guy's doing over 400 in many gyms. Like anything else, TUT or any other style may not work for everyone the same way. The same as 'roids don't give the same results for different users. But may be worth a try for getting great improvement for the pec's/chest.
As far as Pro training video's go, they most never tell the true story of how most successful BB'ers workout. If you live in Mud Flats,Tenn and the only training knowledge you get is from some of the Pro's videos or magazine articles then you might go forward in your own training with caution. May be worth the expense and time to come to NY, Las Vegas or SoCal and see for yourself how some of these huge men really train. And be a fly on the wall and see how much junk they shoot up twice to three times a day, every day, to get in "in shape" for a show or expo. Or how fat they are and how bad their skin and eyes look off season. Good Luck.
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JPM:
Concerning the way Branch performs military presses in the clip below, is this similar to what you're describing insofar as TUT, ROM, tempo, etc.?
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there have been studies done on this.
emg's etc show that decline db presses activate more of the pec major muscle fibre than any other movement.
db incline presses activate the pec minor fibres more than any other movement - with the bb versions 2nd
flat presses db then bb are middle of the road.
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there have been studies done on this.
emg's etc show that decline db presses activate more of the pec major muscle fibre than any other movement.
db incline presses activate the pec minor fibres more than any other movement - with the bb versions 2nd
flat presses db then bb are middle of the road.
Links to said studies?
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Montague: Actually thoses are high incline presses rather than military or front presses. Notice the heavy involvement of the upper chest in the video's. There are real overhead pressing sitting benches that form a 90 degree angle to support the back, less back bend also. With true military/front press the bar is pretty much directly overhead at the top position. Can handle much more weight on those high inclines than regular overhead pressing.
The last frames (with the guy pressing on that universal type machine) is more the TUT style. Never coming completely down or completely all the way up. Stress on the working muscle at all times and a short ROM. With the inclines, the bar touches/rebounds off the upper chest. Good style for most experienced lifters, with the tension reduced as the bar drops towards the chest. With TUT there is more control of the weight coming down and going back up. Make no mistake, those guy's know what their doing and hitting it hard at that fast pace.Giving a good example to others. I prefer that way of working out. More of a power style of BB'ing. Good Luck.
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Montague: Actually thoses are high incline presses rather than military or front presses. Notice the heavy involvement of the upper chest in the video's. There are real overhead pressing sitting benches that form a 90 degree angle to support the back, less back bend also. With true military/front press the bar is pretty much directly overhead at the top position. Can handle much more weight on those high inclines than regular overhead pressing.
The last frames (with the guy pressing on that universal type machine) is more the TUT style. Never coming completely down or completely all the way up. Stress on the working muscle at all times and a short ROM. With the inclines, the bar touches/rebounds off the upper chest. Good style for most experienced lifters, with the tension reduced as the bar drops towards the chest. With TUT there is more control of the weight coming down and going back up. Make no mistake, those guy's know what their doing and hitting it hard at that fast pace.Giving a good example to others. I prefer that way of working out. More of a power style of BB'ing. Good Luck.
Not an important point but I prefer the rebound effect more. Just my view.
Okay, thank you.
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Links to said studies?
main 2 studies on decline/incline for maximum pec development:
Electromyographical activity of the pectoralis muscle during incline and decline bench presses
The purpose of this study was to determine the relationship between motor unit recruitment within two areas of the pectoralis major and two forms of bench press exercise. Fifteen young men experienced in weight lifting completed 6 repetitions of the bench press at incline and decline angles of +30 and -15[degrees] from horizontal, respectively. Electrodes were placed over the pectoralis major at the 2nd and 5th intercostal spaces, midclavicular line. Surface electromyography was recorded and integrated during the concentric (Con) and eccentric (Ecc) phases of each repetition. Reliability of IEMG across repetitions was r = 0.87. Dependent means t-tests were used to examine motor unit activation for the lower (incline vs. decline) and upper pectoral muscles. Results showed significantly greater lower pectoral Con activation during decline bench press. The same result was seen during the Ecc phase. No significant differences were seen in upper pectoral activation between incline and decline bench press. It is concluded there are variations in the activation of the lower pectoralis major with regard to the angle of bench press, while the upper pectoral portion is unchanged.
fulltext:
http://www.edulife.com.br/dados/artigos/educacao%20fisica/muscula%C3%A7%C3%A3o%20e%20condicionamento%20fisico/eletromiografia%20do%20peitoral.pdf
and :
Effects of Variations of the Bench Press Exercise on the EMG Activity of Five Shoulder Muscles
This experiment investigated the effects of varying bench inclination and hand spacing on the EMG activity of five muscles acting at the shoulder joint. Six male weight trainers performed presses under four conditions of trunk inclination and two of hand spacing at 80% of their predetermined max. Preamplified surface EMG electrodes were placed over the five muscles in question. The EMG signals during the 2-sec lift indicated some significant effects of trunk inclination and hand spacing. The sternocostal head of the pectoralis major was more active during the press from a horizontal bench than from a decline bench. Also, the clavicular head of the pectoralis major was no more active during the incline bench press than during the horizontal one, but it was less active during the decline bench press. The clavicular head of the pectoralis major was more active with a narrow hand spacing. Anterior deltoid activity tended to increase as trunk inclination increased. The long head of the triceps brachii was more active during the decline and flat bench presses than the other two conditions, and was also more active with a narrow hand spacing. Latissimus dorsi exhibited low activity in all conditions.
also more studies were done by tudor o bompa for his book serious strength training - which i own:
Electromyographical (EMG) Research is an essential research tool allowing physiologists to determine the role of muscles during specific movements. EMG is a scientific method of measuring the level of excitation. This is done by placing electrodes over your body and recording the level of muscle activity induced by an exercise. A study was conducted to find which exercises cause the greatest amount of activity within each muscle group and, as a consequence, determine which exercises will produce the greatest gains in mass and strength. This study was conducted by Tudor O. Bompa, PhD & Lorenzo J. Cornacchia. Both men and women were used in the sudy and all subjects had at least two years experience with resistance training.
Here are the results of that study:
(100% would signify maximum muscle fiber stimulation)
Pectoralis Major
Decline dumbbell bench press ----------------93%
Decline bench press, Olympic bar(OB)---------89
Push-ups between benches --------------------88
Flat dumbbell bench press -------------------87
Flat bench press (OB) -----------------------85
Flat dumbbell flyes --------------------------84
Pectoralis Minor
Incline dumbbell bench press ----------------91%
Incline bench press (OB) --------------------85
Incline dumbbell flyes -----------------------83
Incline bench press (smith machine) ---------81
Medial Deltoids
Incline dumbbell (db) side laterals ----- 66%
Standing db side laterals -------63
Seated db side laterals -----62
Cable side laterals -----47
Posterior Deltoids
Standing db bent laterals ----- 85%
Seated db bent laterals -----83
Standing cable bent laterals -----77
Anterior Deltoids
Seated front db press -----79%
Standing front db raises -----73
Seated front barbell press -----61
Biceps brachii (long head)
Preacher curls (Ob) -------------------- 90%
Incline seated Db curls (alternate) ------ 88
Standing biceps curls (Ob/narrow grip)--- 86
Standing Db curls (alternate) ----------- 84
Concentration Db curls ------------------ 80
Standing curls (Ob/wide grip)------------ 63
Standing E-Z curls (wide grip) ----------- 61
Triceps brachii (outer head)
Decline extensions (Ob) ------------------ 92%
Triceps pressdowns (angled bar) ----------- 90
Dips with a bench --------------------------87
One-arm cable extensions (reverse grip) - 85
Overhead rope extensions ------------------ 85
Seated one-arm Db extensions (neutral grip)- 82
Close-grip bench press (Ob) --------------- 72
Latissimus dorsi (back)
Bent-over Bb rows ---------------------------93%
One-arm Db rows -----------------------------91
T-bar rows ----------------------------------89
Lat pulldowns to the front ------------------86
Seated pulley rows --------------------------83
Rectus femoris (quads)
Safety squats (90 degree angle, shoulder width stance) ----88%
seated leg extensions (toes straight) -------86
Hack squats (90 degree angle, shoulder width stance) ----78
Leg press (110 degree angle) ----------------76
Smith machine (90 degree angle, shoulder width stance) ----60
Biceps femoris (hamsring)
Standing leg curls --------------------------82%
Lying leg curls -----------------------------71
Seated leg curls ----------------------------58
Modified hamstring deads --------------------56
Semitendinosus (inner hamstring)
Seated leg curls ----------------------------88
Standing leg curls --------------------------79
Lying leg curls -----------------------------70
Modified hamstring deads --------------------63
Gastrocnemius (calf muscle)
Donkey raises -------------------------------80
Standing one-leg raises ---------------------79
Standing two-leg raises ---------------------68
Seated raises -------------------------------61
the book 'target bodybuilding' by per a tesch also has lots of scans done using MRI that proves that we can work/develop specific parts of the muscle, i.e. outer thigh, inner thigh, specific head of tri's, etc by changing the angle or exercise.
these MRI tests also agree/confirm bompa's and others aboves findings.
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That’s a good article/study.
EMG studies are quite accurate at indicating muscle fiber activation.
However, do not mistake those statistics as equating to the best exercise for a particular muscle.
I don’t doubt Jay made those comments concerning his results with decline presses.
Nor, do I doubt his results themselves.
Bodybuilding is - and will always be - very individualistic.
Certain movements will always work better for some than others & vice versa regardless of EMG readings.
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main 2 studies on decline/incline for maximum pec development:
Electromyographical activity of the pectoralis muscle during incline and decline bench presses
The purpose of this study was to determine the relationship between motor unit recruitment within two areas of the pectoralis major and two forms of bench press exercise. Fifteen young men experienced in weight lifting completed 6 repetitions of the bench press at incline and decline angles of +30 and -15[degrees] from horizontal, respectively. Electrodes were placed over the pectoralis major at the 2nd and 5th intercostal spaces, midclavicular line. Surface electromyography was recorded and integrated during the concentric (Con) and eccentric (Ecc) phases of each repetition. Reliability of IEMG across repetitions was r = 0.87. Dependent means t-tests were used to examine motor unit activation for the lower (incline vs. decline) and upper pectoral muscles. Results showed significantly greater lower pectoral Con activation during decline bench press. The same result was seen during the Ecc phase. No significant differences were seen in upper pectoral activation between incline and decline bench press. It is concluded there are variations in the activation of the lower pectoralis major with regard to the angle of bench press, while the upper pectoral portion is unchanged.
fulltext:
http://www.edulife.com.br/dados/artigos/educacao%20fisica/muscula%C3%A7%C3%A3o%20e%20condicionamento%20fisico/eletromiografia%20do%20peitoral.pdf
and :
Effects of Variations of the Bench Press Exercise on the EMG Activity of Five Shoulder Muscles
This experiment investigated the effects of varying bench inclination and hand spacing on the EMG activity of five muscles acting at the shoulder joint. Six male weight trainers performed presses under four conditions of trunk inclination and two of hand spacing at 80% of their predetermined max. Preamplified surface EMG electrodes were placed over the five muscles in question. The EMG signals during the 2-sec lift indicated some significant effects of trunk inclination and hand spacing. The sternocostal head of the pectoralis major was more active during the press from a horizontal bench than from a decline bench. Also, the clavicular head of the pectoralis major was no more active during the incline bench press than during the horizontal one, but it was less active during the decline bench press. The clavicular head of the pectoralis major was more active with a narrow hand spacing. Anterior deltoid activity tended to increase as trunk inclination increased. The long head of the triceps brachii was more active during the decline and flat bench presses than the other two conditions, and was also more active with a narrow hand spacing. Latissimus dorsi exhibited low activity in all conditions.
also more studies were done by tudor o bompa for his book serious strength training - which i own:
Electromyographical (EMG) Research is an essential research tool allowing physiologists to determine the role of muscles during specific movements. EMG is a scientific method of measuring the level of excitation. This is done by placing electrodes over your body and recording the level of muscle activity induced by an exercise. A study was conducted to find which exercises cause the greatest amount of activity within each muscle group and, as a consequence, determine which exercises will produce the greatest gains in mass and strength. This study was conducted by Tudor O. Bompa, PhD & Lorenzo J. Cornacchia. Both men and women were used in the sudy and all subjects had at least two years experience with resistance training.
Here are the results of that study:
(100% would signify maximum muscle fiber stimulation)
Pectoralis Major
Decline dumbbell bench press ----------------93%
Decline bench press, Olympic bar(OB)---------89
Push-ups between benches --------------------88
Flat dumbbell bench press -------------------87
Flat bench press (OB) -----------------------85
Flat dumbbell flyes --------------------------84
Pectoralis Minor
Incline dumbbell bench press ----------------91%
Incline bench press (OB) --------------------85
Incline dumbbell flyes -----------------------83
Incline bench press (smith machine) ---------81
Medial Deltoids
Incline dumbbell (db) side laterals ----- 66%
Standing db side laterals -------63
Seated db side laterals -----62
Cable side laterals -----47
Posterior Deltoids
Standing db bent laterals ----- 85%
Seated db bent laterals -----83
Standing cable bent laterals -----77
Anterior Deltoids
Seated front db press -----79%
Standing front db raises -----73
Seated front barbell press -----61
Biceps brachii (long head)
Preacher curls (Ob) -------------------- 90%
Incline seated Db curls (alternate) ------ 88
Standing biceps curls (Ob/narrow grip)--- 86
Standing Db curls (alternate) ----------- 84
Concentration Db curls ------------------ 80
Standing curls (Ob/wide grip)------------ 63
Standing E-Z curls (wide grip) ----------- 61
Triceps brachii (outer head)
Decline extensions (Ob) ------------------ 92%
Triceps pressdowns (angled bar) ----------- 90
Dips with a bench --------------------------87
One-arm cable extensions (reverse grip) - 85
Overhead rope extensions ------------------ 85
Seated one-arm Db extensions (neutral grip)- 82
Close-grip bench press (Ob) --------------- 72
Latissimus dorsi (back)
Bent-over Bb rows ---------------------------93%
One-arm Db rows -----------------------------91
T-bar rows ----------------------------------89
Lat pulldowns to the front ------------------86
Seated pulley rows --------------------------83
Rectus femoris (quads)
Safety squats (90 degree angle, shoulder width stance) ----88%
seated leg extensions (toes straight) -------86
Hack squats (90 degree angle, shoulder width stance) ----78
Leg press (110 degree angle) ----------------76
Smith machine (90 degree angle, shoulder width stance) ----60
Biceps femoris (hamsring)
Standing leg curls --------------------------82%
Lying leg curls -----------------------------71
Seated leg curls ----------------------------58
Modified hamstring deads --------------------56
Semitendinosus (inner hamstring)
Seated leg curls ----------------------------88
Standing leg curls --------------------------79
Lying leg curls -----------------------------70
Modified hamstring deads --------------------63
Gastrocnemius (calf muscle)
Donkey raises -------------------------------80
Standing one-leg raises ---------------------79
Standing two-leg raises ---------------------68
Seated raises -------------------------------61
the book 'target bodybuilding' by per a tesch also has lots of scans done using MRI that proves that we can work/develop specific parts of the muscle, i.e. outer thigh, inner thigh, specific head of tri's, etc by changing the angle or exercise.
these MRI tests also agree/confirm bompa's and others aboves findings.
Awesoem, read through it real quick...even though declines recruit the most muscle fibers......does that mean they are best for building a bber thick chest? As the last line there indicates, if you can work/develop specific areas then using decline presses on a consistant basis would make the lower area of the pec grow and create boobs, right? :D
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BTW did inclines, then declines today......nice little pump.
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Fat P offers an informative article about EMG's and their influence on muscle action/reaction.We thank him for that. But all this may just give us a basic starting point to the true response of a muscle group to certain movements. Not all humans muscular structures/bone placement/leverage will follow the same exercise pattern with the same results. EMG's are nothing new and have been around for many years. They give a general indication of a muscle fiber/cell stress at the time of the exercise..
That's why I agree with Montague that all exercises are not created equal. And that lifting (BB'ing, PL'ing, etc) are truly a very individualistic undertaking. Studies with ERG's or MRI/NMRI can be most helpful, of course, but fail to tell the total outcome of exercise adapting or exercise science. I wonder if these performance test were used with light, moderate or heavy weight. That can make a lot of difference when calling upon other muscle groups around the main working one when using max resistance for example. Or if a muscle was worked to exhaustion.
Doing Declines only may give some guy's total chest, delt and triceps development. A perfect blend. Some may only receive better triceps and front delts. Others lower pecs and front delts, etc, etc, etc.. Some may get exceptional total results from doing inclines only. Or regular flat benches for that matter. All may depends of a persons bone structure, muscle inserts and other factors of how one responds to any exercise. There are only bench dips listed. Wonder what results regular dips would rate? Good Luck.
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Awesoem, read through it real quick...even though declines recruit the most muscle fibers......does that mean they are best for building a bber thick chest? As the last line there indicates, if you can work/develop specific areas then using decline presses on a consistant basis would make the lower area of the pec grow and create boobs, right? :D
well basically the decline works the entire pec, so its probably just generics/general pec mass that will determine if you would get the boob effect.
however there is certainly a top part of the pec ( pec minor, ) and also the front delts that stretch across the top of the chest that are activated by inclines - so for balance you need both imo.
theoretically if you only did declines, with no front delt work of any kind and no inclines then you would probably have a more pronounced boob effect.
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well basically the decline works the entire pec, so its probably just generics/general pec mass that will determine if you would get the boob effect.
however there is certainly a top part of the pec ( pec minor, ) and also the front delts that stretch across the top of the chest that are activated by inclines - so for balance you need both imo.
theoretically if you only did declines, with no front delt work of any kind and no inclines then you would probably have a more pronounced boob effect.
I dunno, the way the muscle is attached to the sternum (in a fan like shape) it would seem unlikely to me that the muscle would be stimulated in the middle portion of the chest as much as the lower portion during declines, since the fibers going from the armpit to the center of the sternum are going to be less involved in pushing the weight up in a decline position than they would be in a flat bench.
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I dunno, the way the muscle is attached to the sternum (in a fan like shape) it would seem unlikely to me that the muscle would be stimulated in the middle portion of the chest as much as the lower portion during declines, since the fibers going from the armpit to the center of the sternum are going to be less involved in pushing the weight up in a decline position than they would be in a flat bench.
in one of those studies he posted it showed that the upper chest isnt activated any more during incline press than it is activated during decline press, the only difference was more lower chest activation during the decline press. so based on that study, the decline press activates every section of the chest (upper middle and lower) just as good as any other angle of press, and hits the lower chest even better than any of the other angles can.
of course i do feel more upper chest activation during inclines, and i think panda has a different study in that same post that showed the pectoralis minor , which would be the upper chest, was hit best by incline dumbells.
personal experience, declines hit the lower chest.. both inner and outer.. very well. they do not hit the center middle of the chest and center upper chest as well as i would like. one incline or some kind of other movement for chest to hit this area(upper/middle inner) seems necessary.
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of course i do feel more upper chest activation during inclines, and i think panda has a different study in that same post that showed the pectoralis minor , which would be the upper chest, was hit best by incline dumbells.
This is my point, regardless of what some EMG study says, reality is that the chest muscle and the way it attaches to the sternum cannot be completely worked with one exercise, hence the need for flat/incline presses.
I'm going to do the incline/decline workout for a few weeks, see if I notice a difference physically and also test myself on flat bench and see what kind of consequences that type of workout brings for that movement.
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in one of those studies he posted it showed that the upper chest isnt activated any more during incline press than it is activated during decline press, the only difference was more lower chest activation during the decline press. so based on that study, the decline press activates every section of the chest (upper middle and lower) just as good as any other angle of press, and hits the lower chest even better than any of the other angles can.
of course i do feel more upper chest activation during inclines, and i think panda has a different study in that same post that showed the pectoralis minor , which would be the upper chest, was hit best by incline dumbells.
personal experience, declines hit the lower chest.. both inner and outer.. very well. they do not hit the center middle of the chest and center upper chest as well as i would like. one incline or some kind of other movement for chest to hit this area(upper/middle inner) seems necessary.
yeah candy - that sudy only looked at pec major (top and bottom) but not pec minor.
the other one looked specifically at pec minor - hence the inclines being best - they also work the front delt well ( which also stretches across the top of the pecs ) see this levrone pic for a visual idea of what i'm talking about in regard to how the delt stretches over the top of the chest:
(http://www.fitnessinferno.com/images/photos4pages/01%20olymp%20kev&me%2002.jpg)
those lines that seperate the pec area is a combination of pec minor/front delt - which inclines hit best. the rest of the pec area ( larger area below the line) is hit best by declines.
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thats a good visual there panda. i wasnt aware of the pec major/pec minor differences. i guess when talking about upper/lower chest we are really talking about upper/lower pec major. and when we are talking about the "shelf" at the top of the chest that everyone wants and refers to as the upper chest, we are really talking about the whole of the pec minor. that distinction is helpful.
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thats a good visual there panda. i wasnt aware of the pec major/pec minor differences. i guess when talking about upper/lower chest we are really talking about upper/lower pec major. and when we are talking about the "shelf" at the top of the chest that everyone wants and refers to as the upper chest, we are really talking about the whole of the pec minor. that distinction is helpful.
np 8)
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I didn't know a part of getbig existed anymore where people were helpful and polite! ;D
My chest and ribcage is shaped a lot like tbombz I think. I remember a picture he posted a while back.
would you be at all interested in joining the challenge between me and goodrum?
Im not being a dick here--its a genuine proposal as I know you are losing weight also and getting in shape
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What "shelf" at the top? Please illustrate on fatpanda's pic of Levrone
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i think decline dumbells are pretty damn awesome.
the problem with that they can be very hard to get in place. but here is what i did today, and 8 hours later my chest is very sore already!
after all the flat and incline pressing movements, i finshed my workout with decline flies. only using the 55lb dumbells. i would stretch all the way at the bottom, and contract the hell out of my pecs at the top. after doing about 12, i would then (without a break), "press" them for about 8-10 reps. talk about a burn. felt amazing. i did that for a total of 3 sets. really felt like it hit the pecs really well.
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the idea that thick lower pecs will not look aesthetic, or will somehow look feminine and like "boobs" is just plain rediculous. show me ONE bodybuilder with a massive lower chest and non existant upper chest. and lets see if it looks bad. even in that case, which you wont find because in order for the lower pecs to be massive the upper pecs would have to have gotten worked pretty good as well, the dudes pecs wouldnt look ugly, they just wouldnt look ideal when compared to the top bodybuilders.
That dude in pumping iron, that school teacher guy? Oh yeah Mike Katz...that dude had fucked up lower pec-titts.
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It'll give you tits bro. I do them randomly maybe 1-2 every couple of months, but when I used them every week, I was only 210-215 and pretty lean, but I developed tits. It is cool to flex them and watch them bounce around and back then some of then girls that hung around thought it was great, but I didn't really dig the shape of my chest like that, so I cut down on them and used more flat and upper movements.
You have before and after pics?
I think it's all in your head. You probably put on some body fat and you tend to distribute it there more.
I can't tell you how many times I needed more "outer" calves, "upper" pecs, "lower" biceps, etc, only to realize the reason I didn't have any was because they simply weren't big enough to begin with.
I mean really. Think about it. Do you claim to possess a better understanding of your muscular anatomy than your own genetic administration?
Do you think your training is sooo unorthodox and haphazard as to be developing such unaesthetic builds?
What’s more plausible?
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You have before and after pics?
I think it's all in your head. You probably put on some body fat and you tend to distribute it there more.
I can't tell you how many times I needed more "outer" calves, "upper" pecs, "lower" biceps, etc, only to realize the reason I didn't have any was because they simply weren't big enough to begin with.
I mean really. Think about it. Do you claim to possess a better understanding of your muscular anatomy than your own genetic administration?
Do you think your training is sooo unorthodox and haphazard as to be developing such unaesthetic builds?
What’s more plausible?
???
LOL That happened to be one of the leanest times of my life.
Has absolutely nothing to do with unorthodox training or haphazard training, it has to do with the overdevelopment of the muscle by working from one angle. One reason "mixing it up" is so important.
However I invite you to give it a shot yourself, only do declines on chest day for the next 6-8 weeks and let us know what happens with the shape of your chest. :)
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Most BB should be focusing more on upper and outter pecs..\
Declines are an ok execise , but are just that another exercise , on the majority of us the lower pecs develop quickly and if you dont keep the upper pecs in balance this will just make you look narrow.
Why you are stronger on declines is because the ROM is limited or shorter and the angle of your body activates quite a bit of lat involvement to help with execise movement.
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???
LOL That happened to be one of the leanest times of my life.
Has absolutely nothing to do with unorthodox training or haphazard training, it has to do with the overdevelopment of the muscle by working from one angle. One reason "mixing it up" is so important.
However I invite you to give it a shot yourself, only do declines on chest day for the next 6-8 weeks and let us know what happens with the shape of your chest. :)
I invite you to overdevelop your lower pecs again, take plenty of pics and documentation, and shock the scientific community. You could capitalize on it and get plenty of of recognition.
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So that's a "no"?
If the pec was attached at two points I might agree that you can't overdevelop a specific area, however the pec is attached like a fan and you would have to be naïve to think you can't overdevelop a specific direction of muscle fibers. Go back and take a close look at the chart I posted and think about it.
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Most BB should be focusing more on upper and outter pecs..\
Declines are an ok execise , but are just that another exercise , on the majority of us the lower pecs develop quickly and if you dont keep the upper pecs in balance this will just make you look narrow.
Why you are stronger on declines is because the ROM is limited or shorter and the angle of your body activates quite a bit of lat involvement to help with execise movement.
there is zero lat involvement during any type of press - incline, flat, decline. the decline actually offers a greater range of motion if your bringing the bar down to mid chest instead of the sternum.
let me try to get this point across once more for everybody.. the function of the pectoralis is to pull the arm down and across the body.
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there is zero lat involvement during any type of press - incline, flat, decline. the decline actually offers a greater range of motion if your bringing the bar down to mid chest instead of the sternum.
let me try to get this point across once more for everybody.. the function of the pectoralis is to pull the arm down and across the body.
actually dizzle there is, while it may not be the muscle that is being targeted the lats play a very big role in benching...
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thats like saying theres tricep involvement in dumbell curls or hamstring involvement in leg extensions. the lats move during bench because the arms are being pushed backwards by the weight of the bar, the lats arent doing any lifting.
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thats like saying theres tricep involvement in dumbell curls or hamstring involvement in leg extensions. the lats move during bench because the arms are being pushed backwards by the weight of the bar, the lats arent doing any lifting.
LOL i never said they were doing any lifting but you said that "there is zero lat involvement during any type of press" which is ignorant beyond belief...
the lats play a big role in bench presses...
http://www.bench-press.net/increase-bench-press.html
"The lats play a bigger role in increasing your bench press than most people give them credit for! By increasing the strength of your lats you can increase bench press. When benching squeeze your lats as if your were pushing the bar with them, keep them tight and flexed for the whole movement."
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there is zero lat involvement in lifting the weight. the reason they are saying to squeeze your lats together is because doing that puts your pecs in a mechanically stronger position.
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2 things come 2 mind@
1. stable base
2. reciprocal innervation
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there is zero lat involvement in lifting the weight. the reason they are saying to squeeze your lats together is because doing that puts your pecs in a mechanically stronger position.
agreed that again the lats dont lift the weight...
yes thank you dizzle, thats not the only purpose the lats serve in the bench...you do know that right?
do some research dizzle if youre bench can go up by strengthning your lats you really think they only purpose they serve it to retract the scapulas?
do some research broham
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theres also trap, forearm, bicep, neck, fingers, lungs, heart, brain, even your feet are getting some involvement too, being pressed on the floor and all. yes, all these get "worked" during a bench press. ;D
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theres also trap, forearm, bicep, neck, fingers, lungs, heart, brain, even your feet are getting some involvement too, being pressed on the floor and all. yes, all these get "worked" during a bench press. ;D
LOL ill take that as you didnt do any research on this?
LOL dont get cocky son youre still the same dumb ass you were a year ago...simply b/c youve been lifting for one more year doesnt mean you know all the shit there is to know... ;)
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LMAO and after reading this thread a little more dizzle someone that didnt know that inclines hit the delt chest tie in shouldnt be making any assumptions...
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Dont let facts get in the way dizzle ;)
more proof that simply lifting weights doesnt mean you know anything about lifting weights...
http://www.texaspowerscene.com/articles/bodybuilding/benchpress.html
The lats in this case, act as an adductor by pushing the arm toward the midline of the body. The lats however, are thought to play only a very minor part in the actual moving of the bench press. They have been shown to be effective just prior to the bottom phase of the lift (Barnett, 1995)
"Many of us were probably unaware that the lats were even involved in the bench press. However, EMG studies do show that the lats are activated for a short period of time just prior to the start of the bottom phase of the lift. Robinson states, "There is no doubt in my mind that the lats are used to help get the weight moving off the chest." However, while the lats are activated briefly in the pressing movement, it should be noted that this activity is considered to be very small when compared to that of the other muscles used in the bench press. In any case, the decline bench seemed to activate the lats much more that either the flat of incline positions. Also the wider the grip the greater the activation of the lats. "While the lats are not so much directly related to the push motion of the bench press, they are directly related to the stabilization of the torso," says Dr. Arria. "This is very important because greater trunk stabilization means that the dynamic load on the muscle is more specific.""
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quote from ryan kennelly
http://www.criticalbench.com/powerlifting-bench-press.htm
"Shoulders, pecs, lats, and triceps are the muscle groups primarily used in benchpressing. Lats are most important because they are first used when lowering the weight. Your upper back/lats are also where the all the weight is transferred. Your shoulders and pectorals are then employed at the bottom of the lift and then the triceps will be the muscles that press your arms (and the bar) into lockout position which finishes the lift. You must use the chest, shoulders ,and triceps equally (full force) when pressing the weight; these three muscle groups working together throughout the concentric part of the lift is how you should be pressing."
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Ouch, I see Tonymc is bringing some good facts to the thread, nice.
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there is zero lat involvement during any type of press - incline, flat, decline. the decline actually offers a greater range of motion if your bringing the bar down to mid chest instead of the sternum.
let me try to get this point across once more for everybody.. the function of the pectoralis is to pull the arm down and across the body.
Sorry man you are dead wrong.
You need to forget function and what not that you are reading from a book,Sure its good knowledge but leave it there. Because of the angle of your torso the lats are engaged and assist with the lift this is a fact proven with EMG testing..hell doin chins puts load on your chest to but most think its a primary pushing movement that builds the chest mass.
As tommy has pointed out and what PLs have known for a long time build up your lat strentgh and this will help your bench as they assit in the movement , this is more so on the decline as of the angle of the torso its Fact.
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I've come back from a layoff did bench presses with chains and gotten sore lats from it. I've gotten sore lats from doing wrist curls too.
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its always nice to know that getbig is still full of guys who want to make everything personal and resort to name calling, insults, and negativity when they feel they are being "challenged"... :)
in your own post
Dont let facts get in the way dizzle ;)
more proof that simply lifting weights doesnt mean you know anything about lifting weights...
http://www.texaspowerscene.com/articles/bodybuilding/benchpress.html
The lats in this case, act as an adductor by pushing the arm toward the midline of the body. The lats however, are thought to play only a very minor part in the actual moving of the bench press. They have been shown to be effective just prior to the bottom phase of the lift (Barnett, 1995)
"Many of us were probably unaware that the lats were even involved in the bench press. However, EMG studies do show that the lats are activated for a short period of time just prior to the start of the bottom phase of the lift. Robinson states "There is no doubt in my mind that the lats are used to help get the weight moving off the chest." However, while the lats are activated briefly in the pressing movement, it should be noted that this activity is considered to be very small when compared to that of the other muscles used in the bench press. In any case, the decline bench seemed to activate the lats much more that either the flat of incline positions.Also the wider the grip the greater the activation of the lats. "While the lats are not so much directly related to the push motion of the bench press, they are directly related to the stabilization of the torso," says Dr. Arria. "This is very important because greater trunk stabilization means that the dynamic load on the muscle is more specific.""
are front delts activated during curls ? are quads activated during rack deadlifts? is your deltoid being activated when you jerkoff?
muscles across the entire body start firing when you lift heavy weight, or even a light weight. just because they are firing doesnt mean your actually putting any real stress on them or going to cause them to grow/get stronger. the only muscle getting growing is the one getting a large amount of stress put on it.
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its always nice to know that getbig is still full of guys who want to make everything personal and resort to name calling, insults, and negativity when they feel they are being "challenged"... :)
in your own post
are front delts activated during curls ? are quads activated during rack deadlifts? is your deltoid being activated when you jerkoff?
muscles across the entire body start firing when you lift heavy weight, or even a light weight. just because they are firing doesnt mean your actually putting any real stress on them or going to cause them to grow/get stronger. the only muscle getting growing is the one getting a large amount of stress put on it.
Um, you made this post............
there is zero lat involvement during any type of press - incline, flat, decline. the decline actually offers a greater range of motion if your bringing the bar down to mid chest instead of the sternum.
let me try to get this point across once more for everybody.. the function of the pectoralis is to pull the arm down and across the body.
Now you're changing your stance to the muscle "firing" but not being under "real stress".
I'm going to PM Wolfy and see what he thinks and if he'll join our conversation here. :)
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Um, you made this post............
Now you're changing your stance to the muscle "firing" but not being under "real stress".
I'm going to PM Wolfy and see what he thinks and if he'll join our conversation here. :)
there ya go......wolf is the man...
....and tbomz is full of shit about that lat comment...
bench
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tbombz...proving time and time again that simply b/c you lift weights doesnt mean you understand shit about lifting weights... ::)
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its always nice to know that getbig is still full of guys who want to make everything personal and resort to name calling, insults, and negativity when they feel they are being "challenged"... :)
are front delts activated during curls ? are quads activated during rack deadlifts? is your deltoid being activated when you jerkoff?
muscles across the entire body start firing when you lift heavy weight, or even a light weight. just because they are firing doesnt mean your actually putting any real stress on them or going to cause them to grow/get stronger. the only muscle getting growing is the one getting a large amount of stress put on it.
dont smart off to me you 2 bit tard...I started with a respectful tone and your the dumb ass that took the condescending dousche bag road...as a matter of fact I kept it respectful for many posts until you got to full of yourself
Who said anything about growing or targeting the lats? YOU SAID..."there is zero lat involvement in any type of press"
which is ignorant beyond belief as many here know the lats play a big role in bench pressing...
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in that context, "zero involvement" was not meant as literally zero muscle activity, but that the lats main function is to pulls the arms back and down, and its impossible for them to do any significant amount of the work when pressing a weight away from your body. :)
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in that context, "zero involvement" was not meant as literally zero muscle activity, but that the lats main function is to pulls the arms back and down, and its impossible for them to do any significant amount of the work when pressing a weight away from your body. :)
Dizzy,
I've always liked you, and I like a lot of your posts...
But, I can't say it's fair to presume that people would know your intended meaning of that statement without providing clarification.
Even I didn't get the take-home message until your explanation now.
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who is wolfy ???
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Dizzy,
I've always liked you, and I like a lot of your posts...
But, I can't say it's fair to presume that people would know your intended meaning of that statement without providing clarification.
Even I didn't get the take-home message until your explanation now.
its all good, thats why i just took the time to explain it :)
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mods
this thread started off kinda interesting-but taylors attitude is really bringing the thread down
i think u should close this thread down or just delete taylors posts so it doesnt get outta control
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Thanks for your concern gene, I'm watching the situation cosely.
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Thanks for your concern gene, I'm watching the situation cosely.
cool thx
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mods
this thread started off kinda interesting-but taylors attitude is really bringing the thread down
i think u should close this thread down or just delete taylors posts so it doesnt get outta control
:-*
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in that context, "zero involvement" was not meant as literally zero muscle activity, but that the lats main function is to pulls the arms back and down, and its impossible for them to do any significant amount of the work when pressing a weight away from your body. :)
LOL bro, I understand what you meant and youre still very wrong...
again do some research on this...
the lats play a big role in bench presses...
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LOL bro, I understand what you meant and youre still very wrong...
again do some research on this...
the lats play a big role in bench presses...
go ahead and try to get a big bench press and/or big chest by hitting up the rows, pulldowns, and deadlifts. let me know how that works for you. ::)
p.s. you might want to go read the sections i enlarged from the citations you posted
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go ahead and try to get a big bench press and/or big chest by hitting up the rows, pulldowns, and deadlifts. let me know how that works for you. ::)
p.s. you might want to go read the sections i enlarged from the citations you posted
LOL you dumb fuck...
try and go build a big bench by not having strong lats and see how that works for you....THATS THE FUKING POINT YOU TARD!!!!!!!!!
try and dispute anything anyone has said or do your own research... ::)
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LOL you dumb fuck...
try and go build a big bench by not having strong lats and see how that works for you....THATS THE FUKING POINT YOU TARD!!!!!!!!!
try and dispute anything anyone has said or do your own research... ::)
do my own research? try doign your own research first. copy and paste some article is not doing research. besides, the "research" you posted contained all the "disputing" necessary to prove wrong your notion of the lats as a major player in the bench. :)
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Kinesiologist, and other teams doing research/study of muscle function, will apply a muscle/neuron blocking element to certain areas. To observe the response or lack of response to that muscle area/group under a given performance. If one were to apply such an element to the whole structure of the lats/back I would very much doubt that any bench could actually be preformed in any acceptably matter. Or even preformed at all. Back/lats are the basis foundation for benching. Even the ab's/hips/lower back are involved.
Another example would be if the 3 heads of the triceps were numbed/blocked than nothing much in the way of a curl could be accomplished. Opposite muscle groups work together as a whole for any muscle function. That's why isolation of any single muscle in near impossible. The physics of the body demands joint effort from opposing muscle group; point-counter point.
Focus on and making stronger the upper and lower back gives greater odds of have a very impressive BP. Even the press behind the neck can be a major supplemental exercise for just about every big bencher.
Sorry to disagree with tbomb but he seems to always want to prove a point of fuzzy logic over and over again. Anyway Good Luck with that.
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i never knew that the opposite muscle of the primary mover gets a small amount of ancillary stretching/involvement.
mindblowing information!!! ;D
lets make this just a little more simple for yall... what % of the weight being moved during a bench press is being moved by the lats? ;D
if you want to work your lats, do rows, pulldowns, deadlifts, pullovers, etc. pull the arms down and back. thats how the lats function.
if you want to work your chest, bench press. oh wait, doesnt the bench build the lats? okay i guess tonymtones and jpm would both advise the bench press for lat training. follow that advise at your own risk.. ;D
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;D
i never said they were doing any lifting
agreed that again the lats dont lift the weight...
The lats however, are thought to play only a very minor part in the actual moving of the bench press.
while the lats are activated briefly in the pressing movement, it should be noted that this activity is considered to be very small when compared to that of the other muscles used in the bench press.
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do my own research? try doign your own research first. copy and paste some article is not doing research. besides, the "research" you posted contained all the "disputing" necessary to prove wrong your notion of the lats as a major player in the bench. :)
LMAO bro ya youre right...everyone else is wrong, youre right ;)
you know often times when you find yourself the only one arguing a certain stance and multiple ppl are on the opposite side of the fence. Those are perfect times to stop, take a step back and reassess your stance with an unbiased eye.
Instead though you have seemed intent on doubling down on ignorance so ill leave it alone. Good luck dizzle in your future fitness related endeavours but please limit your willful ignorance to yourself and dont infect the minds of others...
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I'm going to PM Wolfy and see what he thinks and if he'll join our conversation here. :)
I'm going to PM Basile and see if he'll finally weigh in with his "real" secrets of hypertrophy that he's been trumpeting since 2004, but has never let on.
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I'm going to PM Basile and see if he'll finally weigh in with his "real" secrets of hypertrophy that he's been trumpeting since 2004, but has never let on.
No need Wolfy was a real big help. ::)
;D
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LMAO bro ya youre right...everyone else is wrong, youre right ;)
you know often times when you find yourself the only one arguing a certain stance and multiple ppl are on the opposite side of the fence. Those are perfect times to stop, take a step back and reassess your stance with an unbiased eye.
Instead though you have seemed intent on doubling down on ignorance so ill leave it alone. Good luck dizzle in your future fitness related endeavours but please limit your willful ignorance to yourself and dont infect the minds of others...
;D definitely has to be considered a meltdown...
MELTDOWN
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(there is a difference between being able to grow lats from benching and the possibility of weak lats limiting a strong bench from making further progress, and if the lats did any significant work during the bench then you coudl grow lats from doing bench)
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Let's keep the name calling on the g&schmoe, we're having a good "debate" here.
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I like to bench press and focus on my lats during the lift...
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Let's keep the name calling on the g&schmoe, we're having a good "debate" here.
oh, my heart is a flutter.. :-\
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oh, my heart is a flutter.. :-\
???
Trying to keep it civil here.........maybe Gene was right about you.
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I like to bench press and focus on my lats during the lift...
On declines? Absolutely.
So tbombz.....do you think the lats become involved when you do dips?
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(there is a difference between being able to grow lats from benching and the possibility of weak lats limiting a strong bench from making further progress, and if the lats did any significant work during the bench then you coudl grow lats from doing bench)
who said lats do significant work during a bench press???
LMAO FACT is though that the lats play a big role in any bench press...
FACT is that stregthning your lats can help build your bench press...
FACT is that your lats have more than "zero involvement in any bench press" ;)
sorry hoss FACT is the lats play a big role in bench pressess...do you disagree?
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who said lats do significant work during a bench press???
LMAO FACT is though that the lats play a big role in any bench press...
FACT is that stregthning your lats can help build your bench press...
FACT is that your lats have more than "zero involvement in any bench press" ;)
sorry hoss FACT is the lats play a big role in bench pressess...do you disagree?
if the lats dont do any significant work, then how can they play a big role? you see, thats contradictory. not to mention your choice of words "the lats play a big role in any bench press" comes exactly out of the copy+paste you posted earlier in the thread. ;D
strengthening your lats will not build your bench press. :)
strengthening your lats can prevent the lats from becoming the "weak link" during bench, but only once youve built up a huge bench and if you havent been training lats along the way as well. ;)
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if the lats dont do any significant work, then how can they play a big role? you see, thats contradictory. not to mention your choice of words "the lats play a big role in any bench press" comes exactly out of the copy+paste you posted earlier in the thread. ;D
strengthening your lats will not build your bench press. :)
strengthening your lats can prevent the lats from becoming the "weak link" during bench, but only once youve built up a huge bench and if you havent been training lats along the way as well. ;)
LOL not its not contradictory...just b/c they dont do any significant lifting of the weight doesnt mean they dont play a big role in bench presses...your hams and lower back dont do any significant lifting in squats but building those will help increase your squat as well...
actually dizzle there is, while it may not be the muscle that is being targeted the lats play a very big role in benching...
I actually made this statement before I started getting quotes to own your dumb ass...
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strengthening your lats can prevent the lats from becoming the "weak link" during bench, but only once youve built up a huge bench and if you havent been training lats along the way as well. ;)
If lats have "zero involvement" in benching how can they be a "weak link"?
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i guess everyone in this thread is wrong except candizzle ::)
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i guess everyone in this thread is wrong except candizzle ::)
LOL not only that but world famous powerlifters as well ;) :D
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strengthening your lats can prevent the lats from becoming the "weak link" during bench , but only once youve built up a huge bench and if you havent been training lats along the way as well.
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Flawed logic. Or better still, maybe no logic applied at all.
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Flawed logic. Or better still, maybe no logic applied at all.
expand, or be quiet :)
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expand, or be quiet :)
What muscles are involved in the bench press movements? incline, flat and decline?
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What muscles are involved in the bench press movements? incline, flat and decline?
www.google.com ;)
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www.google.com ;)
I guess this means you admit defeat?
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I guess this means you admit defeat?
::)
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As the biggest raw and shirted lifter here I will say LATS ARE INVOLVED IN BENCHING!!! They may not be the primary muscle involved but they are involved. Involved enuf I train mine 2 times a week a big back means a big bench!!!
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No need Wolfy was a real big help. ::)
;D
Sorry Chaos computer was donw for a week!!!
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Sorry Chaos computer was donw for a week!!!
Thanks buddy, hope all is well.
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This is off of the Westside Barbell webpage talking about my training it is a article wrote about bench pressing by Louie Simmons one of the BESt strength coaches alive!!! Here is the qoute:
"Next up is Mike Wolfe, a bench-only SHW with an 859-pound bench. His speed day is 225 pounds with a mini or monster mini or light bands much like Tony’s. Both have a 600-pound raw bench. Mike likes 9 sets of 3 reps, with 3 sets with the index finger touching the smooth, 3 sets 2 inches out from the smooth and 3 sets with the little finger touching the ring. After speed benching he will do 2 sets of dumbbell presses with a moderate weight or 100 or 110 pounds for 15 reps, then do triceps extensions. Mike likes dumbbell roll-backs and extensions with the elbows out to the side. Mike uses 125 pounds for a lot of his dumbbell extensions. You have to have a strong upper back to handle 800 pounds in the bench. Lots of rows with dumbbells or a barbell, chest-supported rows, and low-pulley rows are rotated in and out during the weeks of training. Shrugs, side and rear delt work, and hammer curls round out the speed day."
Here is the whole article if you wanna read it!!
http://www.westside-barbell.com/articles/bench-workouts/
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hamstrings are involved in barbell rows. fact.
triceps are involved during dumbell flys. fact.
abs are involved during squats. fact.
rear delts are involved during masterbation. fact.
whats your point??? you will never increase your bench by strengthening your lats, and youll never grow lats from doing bench.
as i said once before, it is possible that lats could cause your bench to suffer if you never trained your lats and were powerlifting bench press for a few years. then, in that extreme case, they become a proverbial "weak link"... outside of that rare exception, lats dont play any role in bench, despite the very minor ancillary useage.. just like rear delts during masterbation..
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you will never increase your bench by strengthening your lats
LMAO this is all that needs to be said about your ignorance...
arent you in college for kines degree?
please please please dizzle dont infect others with your ignorance...
Im guessing you think you know more than everyone else here including wolfe a renowned bench presser?
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hamstrings are involved in barbell rows. fact.
triceps are involved during dumbell flys. fact.
abs are involved during squats. fact.
rear delts are involved during masterbation. fact.
whats your point??? you will never increase your bench by strengthening your lats, and youll never grow lats from doing bench.
as i said once before, it is possible that lats could cause your bench to suffer if you never trained your lats and were powerlifting bench press for a few years. then, in that extreme case, they become a proverbial "weak link"... outside of that rare exception, lats dont play any role in bench, despite the very minor ancillary useage.. just like rear delts during masterbation..
*sigh*
This is the problem with this guy, claims he wants to learn but only if it agrees with what he says.
I'm out, no need to continue, keep it clean fellas. :)
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7 pages........declines = serious business.
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BB Wolfe is just trying to confuse tbombz with the facts. As is everyone else. Might as well give up on attempting to correct tbombz errors on understanding fairly simple basic stuff about weight trtaining. Good luck to the Manteca Marvel in the future.
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wolfe is unbelievably strong :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
wolfe - hows your diet/ getting fitter kick going?
have you stopped that now ? levelled off ? what do you weigh now ? bf levels ?
how has your strength been effected by the weight loss ?
what are your goals now ?
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Tried em again yesterday. Head almost exploded.
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wolfe is unbelievably strong :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Use to be unbelievably strong :)
wolfe - hows your diet/ getting fitter kick going?
That is a thing of the past I'm back in Columbus at Westside getting ready to compete again. I did good for about a year on getting real lean and then realized FUCK THIS this is not who I am
have you stopped that now ? levelled off ? what do you weigh now ? bf levels ?
Im still watching what I eat, nothing processed, nothing to fatty definately nothing deep fried but I do have a cheat day on Sunday mornings after Heavy Bench training at Westside. We hit the breakfast buffet and tear that shit up then I make the 2 hr drive home and all goes back to where it was. I'm not bodybuilder strict but I'm not shoveling burgers and pizza and fries down my throat everyday like I use to. My BW is up from 253 last summer to around 310 to 315. I have put some pudge back on but I have also filled the sleeves on my shirts back out. I'm back in size 40s from my 36s last year. It does kinda bum me out some days cause I look back at how hard I worked to get down there but I was barely above average there. At least here I got good size going and look strong!!! My raw bench right now is low 500s and I did a 700 shirted about 7 weeks ago just for shits and giggles so who knows where that is. I'm gonna focua on getting strong then look at a meet in like March April time frame!!!!
how has your strength been effected by the weight loss ?
what are your goals now ?
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wolfe is unbelievably strong :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
wolfe - hows your diet/ getting fitter kick going?
have you stopped that now ? levelled off ? what do you weigh now ? bf levels ?
how has your strength been effected by the weight loss ?
what are your goals now ?
Ohh and for the record I'm 110% clean this time around!!! As for goals I left 900 on the platform tried it 9 damn times and missed it 9 damn times sooooooo Who knows where I'll go :)
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Ohh and for the record I'm 110% clean this time around!!! As for goals I left 900 on the platform tried it 9 damn times and missed it 9 damn times sooooooo Who knows where I'll go :)
me too....it suck doesnt it??!?!?
bench
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good luck with your goals 8)
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Really have been getting into the declines. My chest feels 100% different since doing them. It's new to the routine. I don't hit the gym focusing on one movement. But I have been doing them. Decline press, dumbells, and flies. Out of all of them. Incline, flat, decline, or cable cross overs. Decline flies hit the whole thing for me.
im glad ! declines have allowed me to thicken up my chest like never before. and now that my chest is getting thicker im getting better contractions during other chest exercises that i didnt get that great of isolation on before.
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This would be considered partial rep training (many other ways to preform partial's...this is just one of them) which quite a few very huge men adapt to when working out. In fact just about every exceptional muscular large man I have witnessed (in person...including some Pro's) follows this type of TUT workout. It's mid range reps than seem the most effective, for most men.
JPM:
Is it common that you see trainers employ this method to other body parts such as arms (I know you don‘t train them much by themselves), legs, etc.?
I’m just curious if anyone’s experienced favorable results from using a modified TUT/ROM on, say, dips or even behind-the-head triceps extensions.
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Montague: Yes, very common. Somewhat rare to see full ROM's performed, something of a trend now. I'm sure there may be some, but again.... rare. TUT seems to work well on biceps/triceps, delts, lats, calves or anywhere else you want to focus on. Add SS's, tri sets or quad sets to the mix and you have a higher level of BB'ing. Of course, never going to complete failure is one of the keys to this style of working out. Good Luck.
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Thank you.
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Anyone else have headrush issues here? My head swells with blood as soon as I decline, gets worse throughout the set.