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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Howard on February 04, 2015, 04:44:05 PM
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Me and many others used this workout routine (and basic low cal diet) in the 1980's.
http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/heavy-duty-mike-mentzers-most-productive-routine/
Here it is with Mike's comments.
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I was a Mike Mentzer fan back in the day. I had great success in my youth training similar to him. I think I still have everything he ever wrote in my basement.
Mike started with volume then after meeting Viator and reading what Arthur Jones use to write he switched to heavy duty high intensity. He won the Mr. America with this whole body routine.
This was his exact work out. A whole body routine done three times a week. After the 1976 he went to a split routine.
Nautilus leg extensions 1 x 12 super set with leg press
Nautilus leg press 1 x 12
squats 1 x 12
Nautilus leg curl 2 x 8
calf raise 3 x 12
Nautilus pullover for one or two cycles super set with {reverse grip pull downs}
Low cable rows 2 x 8
Nautilus double chest 2 super sets for 8 reps. (machine had a flying type pec deck and then a bench press station where your hands faced each other.)
Nautilus double shoulder one or 2 cycles. (machine had a delt lateral section then a pressing part) 8 reps
Nautilus bicep 3 sets
Nautilus tricep 1 set
Nautilus weighted dip on Nautilus multi machine for one set.
situps
He weighed 209 for the contest. He said the workout took one hour.
After this contest he went to a split routine. One day was thighs, chest and tricep. The other was back, delt and bicep. He started doing work out one on Monday and workout two on Tuesday. Took Wednesday off. Then Thursday work out one and Friday workout two. Weekends off.
After awhile he felt he wasn't recuperating and did a workout from his split every other day. Saving his off days for cardio. Yes, he did do cardio during his best years but was firmly against it when he stopped competing.
Influenced I believe by Mr. Florida Frank Calta he started a rotation with his split. While not using calender days I will use them for the purpose of explanation. Monday he would use workout one of his split of thighs, chest and tricep. On Wednesday he would use workout two of his split of back, delt and bicep. Friday would come around and he was back to thighs, chest and tricep. He would train three days a week. The next week he would rotate. Monday would be back, delt and bicep. Wednesday would be now thighs, chest and tricep. Every body part would get hit either two times a week or once. Of course there is over lap. He said he made his best gains and this is what he did for the last Olympia try. He roughly did 6 to 3 sets a body part. Some who have trained in a gym with him have said he used a lot more sets but were they all work sets or were warm up sets included?
When he retired and after coming back from drug addiction and mental illness he got really radical in his training thoughts. He proposed workouts that he never did during his competition days. They were incredibly brief followed by 5 or more days off.
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Me and many others used this workout routine (and basic low cal diet) in the 1980's.
http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/heavy-duty-mike-mentzers-most-productive-routine/
Here it is with Mike's comments.
I got in my best contest shape doing this.
Hey Howard, you got any pictures of from back in the day?
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I was a Mike Mentzer fan back in the day. I had great success in my youth training similar to him. I think I still have everything he ever wrote in my basement.
Mike started with volume then after meeting Viator and reading what Arthur Jones use to write he switched to heavy duty high intensity. He won the Mr. America with this whole body routine.
This was his exact work out. A whole body routine done three times a week. After the 1976 he went to a split routine.
Nautilus leg extensions 1 x 12 super set with leg press
Nautilus leg press 1 x 12
squats 1 x 12
Nautilus leg curl 2 x 8
calf raise 3 x 12
Nautilus pullover for one or two cycles super set with {reverse grip pull downs}
Low cable rows 2 x 8
Nautilus double chest 2 super sets for 8 reps. (machine had a flying type pec deck and then a bench press station where your hands faced each other.)
Nautilus double shoulder one or 2 cycles. (machine had a delt lateral section then a pressing part) 8 reps
Nautilus bicep 3 sets
Nautilus tricep 1 set
Nautilus weighted dip on Nautilus multi machine for one set.
situps
He weighed 209 for the contest. He said the workout took one hour.
After this contest he went to a split routine. One day was thighs, chest and tricep. The other was back, delt and bicep. He started doing work out one on Monday and workout two on Tuesday. Took Wednesday off. Then Thursday work out one and Friday workout two. Weekends off.
After awhile he felt he wasn't recuperating and did a workout from his split every other day. Saving his off days for cardio. Yes, he did do cardio during his best years but was firmly against it when he stopped competing.
Influenced I believe by Mr. Florida Frank Calta he started a rotation with his split. While not using calender days I will use them for the purpose of explanation. Monday he would use workout one of his split of thighs, chest and tricep. On Wednesday he would use workout two of his split of back, delt and bicep. Friday would come around and he was back to thighs, chest and tricep. He would train three days a week. The next week he would rotate. Monday would be back, delt and bicep. Wednesday would be now thighs, chest and tricep. Every body part would get hit either two times a week or once. Of course there is over lap. He said he made his best gains and this is what he did for the last Olympia try. He roughly did 6 to 3 sets a body part. Some who have trained in a gym with him have said he used a lot more sets but were they all work sets or were warm up sets included?
When he retired and after coming back from drug addiction and mental illness he got really radical in his training thoughts. He proposed workouts that he never did during his competition days. They were incredibly brief followed by 5 or more days off.
Kind of a confusing write up. Would like to see how this can be done in a real gym without nautilus crap.
So every single set is to failure?
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mike's philosophy has one flaw, and its a biggie.
neurologically the stress by HIT is so extreme that it removes alot of energy available to recuperate muscularly.
it also removes the indisputable link between repetition and adaptation.
the biggest flaw is that most human beings cannot expend the amount of effort to yield the response claimed. and they certainly cant do it regularly.
there is no denying that p[hysiologically it makes sense, and works. psychologically people dont have the focus or the patience to apply it properly.
as for mixing it up- thats flawed also as you need a good 6 weeks on a rep pattern to get a combined muscular/neurological response that is adaptive.
and chaning from low to high reps is also flawed- like every 6 weeks change from low range to high..thats too much of a jump for a learned response..you end up adapting to the rep scheme just before you change it again, so dont get the benefits.
its been proven that mixing it up is best gotten when you chanhge the rep scheme in increments..say 6 reps for 6 weeks, then 8 for the next then 10, then 12 and so on, and then back down.
too many monkeys say cos they did a 50 rep set and they were really sore that it "works",, wrong, it just taxed you so much that you spent all your energy trying to inefficiently deal with a completely different rep scheme that you werent ready for. its like expecting growth from lifting bricks for a day when u normally dont lift bricks.
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They have been posted numerous times and now are older then the crust on my mom's underwear.
Mike Mentzer's writings really impacted me. I lost years of progress following his methods.
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Kind of a confusing write up. Would like to see how this can be done in a real gym without nautilus crap.
So every single set is to failure?
Cliff notes for you.
1. He first started with volume.
2. Met Casey Viator and read Arthur Jones writings and went to HIT.
3. Start training whole body routines. Used a mix of Nautilus and conventional weights. Trained three days a week. This is how he trained when he won the Mr. America contest.
4. From here he went to a split training 4 days a week. Monday's split was legs,chest and triceps. Tuesday was Lat, delts, and biceps. Wednesday was off. Thursday was legs, chest and tricep. Fridays was lat, delts and biceps. Week ends off.
5. He felt he was getting exhausted training 4 days a week. He then rotated his split in the following manner. Monday was thighs, chest and triceps. Tuesday was off. Wednesday was back, delt and bicep. Thursday was off. Friday was thighs,chest and tricep. Weekends off. Now the next week he rotated so Monday began with back, delts and bicep. Tuesday off. Wednesday was now legs, chest and tricep. Thursday was off. Friday was back, delts and bicep. He took the rotation for recuperation idea from Mr. Florida Frank Calta. This is how he trained for the 1980 Olympia.
6. During his competitive career he wrote many times about the running and biking he did for fat loss though after he retired he was against it.
7. After he retired from competition he came up with really brief routines that he never used. They had many days off between workouts. How convenient for a guy training people for pay.
8. He would do a warm up set then one or two sets to failure. Used a mixture of Nautilus and conventional. Three to six sets a body part. This is what he did during his competitive career. At least this is what he stated in print and during his seminars.
Hope what I wrote is clearer.
On a side note the HIT community is filled with so many pseudo intellectuals that have a pompous condescending attitude toward anyone who dares to disagree with their version of the HIT religion.
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Cliff notes for you.
1. He first started with volume.
2. Met Casey Viator and read Arthur Jones writings and went to HIT.
3. Start training whole body routines. Used a mix of Nautilus and conventional weights. Trained three days a week. This is how he trained when he won the Mr. America contest.
4. From here he went to a split training 4 days a week. Monday's split was legs,chest and triceps. Tuesday was Lat, delts, and biceps. Wednesday was off. Thursday was legs, chest and tricep. Fridays was lat, delts and biceps. Week ends off.
5. He felt he was getting exhausted training 4 days a week. He then rotated his split in the following manner. Monday was thighs, chest and triceps. Tuesday was off. Wednesday was back, delt and bicep. Thursday was off. Friday was thighs,chest and tricep. Weekends off. Now the next week he rotated so Monday began with back, delts and bicep. Tuesday off. Wednesday was now legs, chest and tricep. Thursday was off. Friday was back, delts and bicep. He took the rotation for recuperation idea from Mr. Florida Frank Calta. This is how he trained for the 1980 Olympia.
6. During his competitive career he wrote many times about the running and biking he did for fat loss though after he retired he was against it.
7. After he retired from competition he came up with really brief routines that he never used. They had many days off between workouts. How convenient for a guy training people for pay.
8. He would do a warm up set then one or two sets to failure. Used a mixture of Nautilus and conventional. Three to six sets a body part. This is what he did during his competitive career. At least this is what he stated in print and during his seminars.
Hope what I wrote is clearer.
On a side note the HIT community is filled with so many pseudo intellectuals that have a pompous condescending attitude toward anyone who dares to disagree with their version of the HIT religion.
Very true. There's a guy at my old gym who has turned into a know it all HIT based personal trainer and an outspoken atheist the past few years. Talk about a double whammy of fucking condescension
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you in vegas Rambone?
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you in vegas Rambone?
No sir. South Florida
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Hey Howard, you got any pictures of from back in the day?
^^
From 1978...
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Hey Howard, you got any pictures of from back in the day?
Back in the mid 70s..to early 80s there were Nautilus/racquetball clubs. They were pretty popular.
I went with my dad. They had the full Nautus circuit, and me and my dad did Mentzer's routine to the letter.
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mike's philosophy has one flaw, and its a biggie.
neurologically the stress by HIT is so extreme that it removes alot of energy available to recuperate muscularly.
it also removes the indisputable link between repetition and adaptation.
the biggest flaw is that most human beings cannot expend the amount of effort to yield the response claimed. and they certainly cant do it regularly.
there is no denying that p[hysiologically it makes sense, and works. psychologically people dont have the focus or the patience to apply it properly.
as for mixing it up- thats flawed also as you need a good 6 weeks on a rep pattern to get a combined muscular/neurological response that is adaptive.
and chaning from low to high reps is also flawed- like every 6 weeks change from low range to high..thats too much of a jump for a learned response..you end up adapting to the rep scheme just before you change it again, so dont get the benefits.
its been proven that mixing it up is best gotten when you chanhge the rep scheme in increments..say 6 reps for 6 weeks, then 8 for the next then 10, then 12 and so on, and then back down.
too many monkeys say cos they did a 50 rep set and they were really sore that it "works",, wrong, it just taxed you so much that you spent all your energy trying to inefficiently deal with a completely different rep scheme that you werent ready for. its like expecting growth from lifting bricks for a day when u normally dont lift bricks.
Great post. I feel the same exact way...HIIT is great on paper, doesnt translate
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Great post. I feel the same exact way...HIIT is great on paper, doesnt translate
^^
VERY do-able, you just need 2 days off between workouts and HUGE amounts of timed-release vitamin-C to manage the delayed-onset-muscle-pain...
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^^
VERY do-able, you just need 2 days off between workouts and HUGE amounts of timed-release vitamin-C to manage the delayed-onset-muscle-pain...
I agree, very do-able.
I just dont like it. It assumes too much, as far as "intensity"
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^^
From 1978...
this is what he looked like doing volume training as a teenager.... ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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mike's philosophy has one flaw, and its a biggie.
neurologically the stress by HIT is so extreme that it removes alot of energy available to recuperate muscularly.
it also removes the indisputable link between repetition and adaptation.
the biggest flaw is that most human beings cannot expend the amount of effort to yield the response claimed. and they certainly cant do it regularly.
there is no denying that p[hysiologically it makes sense, and works. psychologically people dont have the focus or the patience to apply it properly.
as for mixing it up- thats flawed also as you need a good 6 weeks on a rep pattern to get a combined muscular/neurological response that is adaptive.
and chaning from low to high reps is also flawed- like every 6 weeks change from low range to high..thats too much of a jump for a learned response..you end up adapting to the rep scheme just before you change it again, so dont get the benefits.
its been proven that mixing it up is best gotten when you chanhge the rep scheme in increments..say 6 reps for 6 weeks, then 8 for the next then 10, then 12 and so on, and then back down.
too many monkeys say cos they did a 50 rep set and they were really sore that it "works",, wrong, it just taxed you so much that you spent all your energy trying to inefficiently deal with a completely different rep scheme that you werent ready for. its like expecting growth from lifting bricks for a day when u normally dont lift bricks.
Micke can shew up his philosofy in his dead ass! 99% drugs made his body, not his workout! Same for arnold, same for columbo, same for all other jackheads in the bizznes. I bet they couldent make 6month of drugfree workout, dosent have willpower or mental stability! Fucktards, all of them!
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There's no special routine it's just all about marketing
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this is what he looked like doing volume training as a teenager.... ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Great white man genetics for bodybuilding
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On paper Heavy Duty sounded great. I remember reading a few long articles and thinking I had in my hands life changing material. Mike comes off as an intellectual, a man that has seen and done it all. In the end Heavy Duty does not work for most. Mike's claims of clients gaining 30 lbs of muscles in 4 months is pure bullshit. It was all business.
Jones realized that most people were lazy and wanted muscles in minutes. He designed expensive machines and was trying to open up his Nautilus clubs worldwide starting in the States. He wanted people in and out quickly who were only there a couple of times a week. Less attendance, more members, less wear and tear on the machines. He had Viator and Mentzer endorsing him. Invited Arnold, Franco, Sergio, Boyer, and a bunch of other famous muscle guys. In the end, the top guys stuck to volume. Viator who didn't train Heavy Duty ever (he sneaked in volume), and Mentzer who burnt out quickly training this way were the only two left. Boyer’s body went to crap training this way.
I have met many arrogant HIT know it all types. Most look like pencil necks much like Jones himself. They spew about science and intensity but can never explain why volume training works much better for almost everybody. Incidently both Mentzer and Viator died young.
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Do gyms even have Nautilus machines anymore?
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Jones' kid started Hammer Strength which is all over the place.
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Mentzer was the shit - crazy how he looked even at a younger age.
Tried the HIT stuff for some time and I think that a high volume light/medium weight regime is way healthier and adds more "swole".
HIT is simply mouth watering when you go through Mentzer's books and imagine the stratospheric gains that "will" be made "once you crack it up".
Mentzer is basically Isaac Asimov for bodybuilders.
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All these guys used volume to build there base. And when they got older, they got lazier and came up with assorted workouts where they want others to believe built their body. In essence trying to re-write history of what it really took to build their bodies. See it everyday today. The Cutlers of the world using hardly any real weight and working out on machines using boatloads of drugs telling people that their working out harder today then they ever did. These mentally ill delusional older dudes like Kamali thinking they look better and bigger today because he weighs more on the scale...When it's the drugs and the calories that are keeping the scale up and the delusional mind not understanding what the mirror is really showing them...
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Back in 78 before I moved to S.FL. I was was training at Main Line Nautilus in Bryn Mawr PA. It was and still is owned by Roger Schwab. He was friends with Mike Mentzer very tight with John Balik and Arthur Jones. He was also an Olympia judge in the 8o's. He would put me and my buddy through the Nautilus circuit. He introduced me to single set and exercise training. I was all of about 145 pounds, it kicked my ass made me somewhat stronger, but never really worked for me as far as packing on any kind of size. I moved to S. FL. shortly after that joined a real gym and trained and ate my ass off. Came back about a year later to visit I was 180. He had finally put some free weights in the place. I was doing some benches in his place telling him I put on all this size with free weights. He told me to keep it down he didn't want the other members to hear what I was saying, he was still pushing his Nautilus workouts to all of his members and clients.
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Back in 78 before I moved to S.FL. I was was training at Main Line Nautilus in Bryn Mawr PA. It was and still is owned by Roger Schwab. He was friends with Mike Mentzer very tight with John Balik and Arthur Jones. He was also an Olympia judge in the 8o's. He would put me and my buddy through the Nautilus circuit. He introduced me to single set and exercise training. I was all of about 145 pounds, it kicked my ass made me somewhat stronger, but never really worked for me as far as packing on any kind of size. I moved to S. FL. shortly after that joined a real gym and trained and ate my ass off. Came back about a year later to visit I was 180. He had finally put some free weights in the place. I was doing some benches in his place telling him I put on all this size with free weights. He told me to keep it down he didn't want the other members to hear what I was saying, he was still pushing his Nautilus workouts to all of his members and clients.
While in school, I was a trainer for Roger at Main Line Health and Fitness.
Great gym.
Training on a routine out of Heavy Duty II (as modified by Mike Mentzer himself due to the machines I had access to), I went from 165 to 195 (I would have been very lean at 180 or so, but was about 10% at a height of 6'1"). Yes, I was totally natural. Not huge, but not small.
The only barbell movement I did was deadlifts.
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All these guys used volume to build there base. And when they got older, they got lazier and came up with assorted workouts where they want others to believe built their body. In essence trying to re-write history of what it really took to build their bodies. See it everyday today. The Cutlers of the world using hardly any real weight and working out on machines using boatloads of drugs telling people that their working out harder today then they ever did. These mentally ill delusional older dudes like Kamali thinking they look better and bigger today because he weighs more on the scale...When it's the drugs and the calories that are keeping the scale up and the delusional mind not understanding what the mirror is really showing them...
Contrary to popular belief, Mentzer did NOT use "volume" to build his base. He started training as a young teenager with a couple of powerlifters his dad knew. They followed a typical -- shock! ;) -- powerlifting routine of the day, whatwith MWF training, relatively low sets, emphasis on strength gains, etc.
Mike told me he didn't give a flying fuck about "volume" until he'd overfed himself to a gross degree. He said he was benching 350 and squatting 500 for reps as a 15 y.o., but he'd also bulked up to about 250ish and his parents were giving him hell about the amount of milk he was knocking out. Only THEN did he embark on a high-volume Arnoldesque routine and, a year later, down to about 170 (?), he realized he was smaller, flatter and weaker than when he started the whole mess.
Diet of course played no small part in that, but this business about Mentzer -- and Yates, for that matter -- using "volume" to build their bases is, well, off-base :)
All homo, Gisele Bunchen-Brady is a complete skank, nobody can weigh more than 150 in contest shape unless they're 8 feet tall, etc., etc.
DCM
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Back in 78 before I moved to S.FL. I was was training at Main Line Nautilus in Bryn Mawr PA. It was and still is owned by Roger Schwab. He was friends with Mike Mentzer very tight with John Balik and Arthur Jones. He was also an Olympia judge in the 8o's. He would put me and my buddy through the Nautilus circuit. He introduced me to single set and exercise training. I was all of about 145 pounds, it kicked my ass made me somewhat stronger, but never really worked for me as far as packing on any kind of size. I moved to S. FL. shortly after that joined a real gym and trained and ate my ass off. Came back about a year later to visit I was 180. He had finally put some free weights in the place. I was doing some benches in his place telling him I put on all this size with free weights. He told me to keep it down he didn't want the other members to hear what I was saying, he was still pushing his Nautilus workouts to all of his members and clients.
ummmm.....
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you guys still think different training stratergies change the shape of your body lol
different drug combionations and standard lifting change your body not
mike mentzas perpendictual system of hiit bollocks
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While in school, I was a trainer for Roger at Main Line Health and Fitness.
Great gym.
Training on a routine out of Heavy Duty II (as modified by Mike Mentzer himself due to the machines I had access to), I went from 165 to 195 (I would have been very lean at 180 or so, but was about 10% at a height of 6'1"). Yes, I was totally natural. Not huge, but not small.
The only barbell movement I did was deadlifts.
Cool, when was that?
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1998-2001.
Kevin Tolbert was a trainer there at the time, and taught me how to do squats, although my college strength and conditioning coach had taught me very similar technique, I had never done squats for 20+ repetitions prior.
Kevin, being Dr. Ken Leistner's adopted son, taught me more about proper strength training in a few sessions than I have learned since.
Kevin is now the head S&C Coach at Michigan, as he came in a package deal with Harbaugh.
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Kevin Tolbert?
Damn. That's not a name I've heard for a good while. He was an utter beast.
Mr. Spoon, would you be so kind as to share some of what you learned from Mr. Tolbert? Also, would you also be so kind as to outline some of your training methods/ideas since '01?
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I would love to.
I have major work to get done for my job, so please remind me, and I will outline what I find really works for a natural (me--I will absolutely not get into a debate about HIT vs. volume, but will say for a guy like me, who is dedicated to his job, family and a charitable organization, I simply don't have time for volume. Now like Howard, I need to clean up my diet to maximize my look, as there is muscle there, but I am not lean enough).
I will say this: Joe Mullen had some very interesting and fruitful ideas that modified Jones' beliefs/protocols.
Tolbert was/is a beast. I saw him do the entire stack on the MedX leg extension with 90 pounds tacked on for a Superslow protocol of 20 seconds up/20 seconds hold in static/20 seconds down for 2 "reps" and hobble over to a bar loaded to 405 and perform perfect squats with 405. The year was 1998 (he was at least 40-42 years old), and if someone were to tell me about it (and I had not personally wintessed this workout with my own eyes prior to the gym opening--when Kevin trained) I would not have believed them.
When I met Kevin, he was coming off of being very heavy (he called himself "fat") as he was 280+ pounds. He was down to a very solid 220+ but had the best leg development out of anyone I have ever seen in person that wasn't on the kitchen sink.
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"different drug combionations and standard lifting change your body not
mike mentzas perpendictual system of hiit bollocks"
- this
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Did the Mentzer HIT quad and calf workout yesterday-real slow-what a pump -will try chest and bis tonight-Ive been doing heavy slow routines for a while-I feel it def works good
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The self-absorbed HIT types are some of the worst, 'tis true. And most of them do look like pencilnecks or fat guys, though I'd exclude Jones from that: he didn't train much past the mid-1950s, but when he did lift for a stretch he got pretty strong and, for his age and natty, somewhat muscular.
As far as Casey sneaking in "volume," he didn't for the infamous "Colorado Experiment." How could he? There was no "gym across the street," as Jeff Everson claimed. Besides, anybody who has truly gone through one of those full-body Nautilus routines, done every other day, could attest to ZERO desire for anything additional in training terms. I guess someone could try, but what good they might hope to do? Psh. Not much, particularly after following that routine for upwards of 6-8 weeks (or more, as I foolishly did as a young teen).
And about Boyer: yeah, he shrank and looked much smaller when he worked for Jones ... but, OOPS! Guess why?
Hint: it wasn't so much the training as it was -- yep! -- the same year Boyer WENT FUCKING CLEAN for a long time. I know Boyer and like him a lot; he's a good dude and, as best I can tell, has never shot me a bunch of bullshit.
About Casey and Mike dying young, eh ... let's just say they weren't the most abstemious folk on the planet, LOL.
No, in all seriousness, it is well-documented that Casey was smoking a pack a day as a 15-year-old (!). In his later years he claimed he didn't smoke anymore, but the fella was upwards of 300 lbs., heavily-muscled but also FAT. Coupled with abusing anabolics for an untold amount of time ... ? Yeah, he fucked himself up, alright -- but just blaming the drugs is stupid.
Casey wasn't held in prison during the experiment and contrary to popular opinion of HIT guys there were barbells gyms in Colorado. Casey has been observed using volume and high volume by David Young the Iron Man writer first hand in the same gym during his most impressive condition in the early 80's. He said 15 sets a body part and he's not the only one that observed that. Jeff Everson if memory serves me right was using hear say evidence obtained from conversations Boyer Coe had with Viator.
Using empirical knowledge of all the heart attacks and heart problems of professional known bodybuilders in this little sub culture of a sport points to fire when you see smoke. Law suits are flying right now over the ubiquitous testosterone hormone replacement therapy. Statistically they found that men on hormone replacement were at an increased risk for heart attack and stroke. Naturally the producers of hormones have flooded the internet with contradictory information. Just pointing out if it's true that a very small amount of test can increase the risk of heart attack, what is flooding your system with steroids over decades of cycles are going to do concerning risk? Yes, both Viator and Mentzer were fat out of shape smokers toward the end of their young lives. No doubt you can't blame just drugs.
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1998-2001.
Kevin Tolbert was a trainer there at the time, and taught me how to do squats, although my college strength and conditioning coach had taught me very similar technique, I had never done squats for 20+ repetitions prior.
Kevin, being Dr. Ken Leistner's adopted son, taught me more about proper strength training in a few sessions than I have learned since.
Kevin is now the head S&C Coach at Michigan, as he came in a package deal with Harbaugh.
He also worked with Eagles and the Miami Hurricanes as strength and conditioning coach.
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Casey wasn't held in prison during the experiment and contrary to popular opinion of HIT guys there were barbells gyms in Colorado. Casey has been observed using volume and high volume by David Young the Iron Man writer first hand in the same gym during his most impressive condition in the early 80's. He said 15 sets a body part and he's not the only one that observed that. Jeff Everson if memory serves me right was using hear say evidence obtained from conversations Boyer Coe had with Viator.
Using empirical knowledge of all the heart attacks and heart problems of professional known bodybuilders in this little sub culture of a sport points to fire when you see smoke. Law suits are flying right now over the ubiquitous testosterone hormone replacement therapy. Statistically they found that men on hormone replacement were at an increased risk for heart attack and stroke. Naturally the producers of hormones have flooded the internet with contradictory information. Just pointing out if it's true that a very small amount of test can increase the risk of heart attack, what is flooding your system with steroids over decades of cycles are going to do concerning risk? Yes, both Viator and Mentzer were fat out of shape smokers toward the end of their young lives. No doubt you can't blame just drugs.
^^
TRUTH on this, I SAW him smoking in 1994, just outside Gold's on Hampton Dr. in Venice!!!!
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He also worked with Eagles and the Miami Hurricanes as strength and conditioning coach.
I know.
I was only going with Kevin's most recent employment.
Kevin and I kept in touch for some time after he left Main Line and I graduated.
His one "trick" that he played was to hang a Christmas Star in the Squat rack, and have the trainee keep their eyes fixed on that star while squatting.
I know there are differences of opinion on where to keep one's head while squatting, but Kevin certainly believed in keeping one's chin at least parallel to the ground, with the eyes up.
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Contrary to popular belief, Mentzer did NOT use "volume" to build his base. He started training as a young teenager with a couple of powerlifters his dad knew. They followed a typical -- shock! ;) -- powerlifting routine of the day, whatwith MWF training, relatively low sets, emphasis on strength gains, etc.
Mike told me he didn't give a flying fuck about "volume" until he'd overfed himself to a gross degree. He said he was benching 350 and squatting 500 for reps as a 15 y.o., but he'd also bulked up to about 250ish and his parents were giving him hell about the amount of milk he was knocking out. Only THEN did he embark on a high-volume Arnoldesque routine and, a year later, down to about 170 (?), he realized he was smaller, flatter and weaker than when he started the whole mess.
Diet of course played no small part in that, but this business about Mentzer -- and Yates, for that matter -- using "volume" to build their bases is, well, off-base :)
All homo, Gisele Bunchen-Brady is a complete skank, nobody can weigh more than 150 in contest shape unless they're 8 feet tall, etc., etc.
DCM
Another "know it all" hitter. Mentzer used volume. He did 10 sets of an exercise to build up his body, not hit. Nothing like it. Mike was full of it. Even Franco saw him training and attested that Mentzer was in the gym longer than him and Arnold. Others like Robert Kennedy, David Young, Greg Zulak, etc also witnessed Mentzer training. He was certainly doing high volume. 4 exercises per bodypart done for 4 sets each. That's 16 sets. Not low volume at all.
As for Yates, he did more volume than he let on. Take his Night of the Champions routine.
Bench or decline press 5 sets pyramided up
Incline press 4 sets pyramided up
Flys 2 sets but did 2 drop sets after each main set totalling up to 6 sets
Cable crossovers done same as flys
Added all up Yates chest routine is 21 sets. Not low volume at all.
So you're very wrong. Please do more research instead of being highly opinionated but lack any real knowledge.
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I heard one of the Mentzer brothers say on YouTube that he worked out 3 hours per week.
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In the early days of his training.circa early 1960`s, Mike trained just like everybody else, why would he do otherwise..........Dave Mastorakis told me this and he knew and trained with the Mentzers since they were about 15 or 16.
Dave also told me that while Mike was making insane progress, he and Ray were struggling to make meager progress.....when they asked Mike what he was doing that was so different than what they were doing, Mike said steroids.
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^^
TRUTH on this, I SAW him smoking in 1994, just outside Gold's on Hampton Dr. in Venice!!!!
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Do gyms even have Nautilus machines anymore?
the gym i belonged to before my health issues and the plandemic hit had one piece of nautilus equipment, the old pullover machine.
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I was a Mike Mentzer fan back in the day. I had great success in my youth training similar to him. I think I still have everything he ever wrote in my basement.
'oldtimer1' hasnt logged on since december 2021, did he died?
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the gym i belonged to before my health issues and the plandemic hit had one piece of nautilus equipment, the old pullover machine.
That's good shit, pal!
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Another "know it all" hitter.
Whoa, slow down there, slugger.
I used to be a foreman for my family's water-sewer pipe construction company. In those days (early 2000s), Mexicans were rapidly replacing black guys on most construction jobs.
Not so for Haynes Construction. We had a core group of men who had been with the company since my late, great father turned the reigns over to me. I'd grown up with some of these guys and regarded them like family.
One day, we were working on a new subdivision, and some asshole that lived almost a mile away rolled up and started screaming at my crew. This putz ranted about all manner of irrational nonsense until I told him to fuck off.
I was mad about it the rest of the day until June "Bug" came to me and said, "Don't you fret that man. You take a man who think he know everything, and he don't know a goddamned thing."
I don't pretend to know everything, by a long shot. However:
Mentzer used volume. He did 10 sets of an exercise to build up his body, not hit. Nothing like it. Mike was full of it. Even Franco saw him training and attested that Mentzer was in the gym longer than him and Arnold. Others like Robert Kennedy, David Young, Greg Zulak, etc also witnessed Mentzer training. He was certainly doing high volume. 4 exercises per bodypart done for 4 sets each. That's 16 sets. Not low volume at all. [Quote/]
Wow.
You dug deep for this one.
I'm curious to see some specifics from these hearsay sources you cited. There are people here who bore first-hand witness to Mentzer training just as he said he did in the late seventies; e.g., The Scott. Roger Schwab, Larry Pollock, Ell Darden and plenty of others corroborated that.
Who are we to believe?
As for Yates, he did ,ore volume than he let on. Take his Night of the Champions routine.
Bench or decline press 5 sets pyramided up
Incline press 4 sets pyramided up
Flys 2 sets but did 2 drop sets after each main set totalling up to 6 sets
Cable crossovers done same as flys
Added all up Yates chest routine is 21 sets. Not low volume at all.
Where was it written that a HIT trainer can't warm up?
He did six to eight hard work sets. The ones preceding them were not too hard.
In fairness, that's not altogether different from moderate volume training routines.
However, I have read his training manual, and you exaggerate. Why?
So you're very wrong. Please do more research instead of bring highly opinionated but lack any real knowledge.
I'm not wrong.
I've no axe to grind with you, mate, but you seem overly hung up on training volume, be it stupidly high (the Defendis sort) or low.
Samir Bannout also trained with Mike and Ray. They were friends. Samir noted that the Mentzer's sessions were shorter than his because he did an extra set or two beyond where they stopped. If memory serves, he said Mike would finish his session in about 30-45 minutes (which is consistent with Pollock's recollection); and Samir, 45 min. to an hour.
I have little problem with his training recommendations up to and including what he outlined in his '92 edition of _Heavy Duty_. It's not perfect, but it served me well enough as a teen. What came after...Oy. Resting a week between sessions, and only doing 2-3 movements per workout?
As Trevor Smith said, that shit went into outer space.
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Never understood the obsession with manlet Mentzer. He was a mentally weak drug addict who lived a loser's life in the end. Great stache though
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'oldtimer1' hasnt logged on since december 2021, did he died?
He quit the forum.
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He quit the forum.
Looks like Howard has been gone for 2 months? Too much effort running the ChOak account too?
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Never understood the obsession with manlet Mentzer. He was a mentally weak drug addict who lived a loser's life in the end. Great stache though
Bro...
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Bro...
Bro, the brutal but true truth hurts sometimes my nikka
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Bro, the brutal but true truth hurts sometimes my nikka
1 brutal set is all you need, no?
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1 brutal set is all you need, no?
No, bro. No?
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He quit the forum.
do you have confirmation or just speculation? I figured a guy who posted here for over 17 years was in it for life, and his last postings didn't really indicate any issues w the site or anything.
If he did quit, good for him. More support for my theory that making a goodbye post means youre coming back, as those who really quit just stop posting and logging in.
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do you have confirmation or just speculation? I figured a guy who posted here for over 17 years was in it for life, and his last postings didn't really indicate any issues w the site or anything.
If he did quit, good for him. More support for my theory that making a goodbye post means youre coming back, as those who really quit just stop posting and logging in.
Someone from the forum was harassing him offline so he stopped posting so as to not risk his employment and reputation.
He is still a member but no longer posts.
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Someone from the forum was harassing him offline so he stopped posting so as to not risk his employment and reputation.
He is still a member but no longer posts.
That fucking sucks.....good guy, glad to know that he`s OK.
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Someone from the forum was harassing him offline so he stopped posting so as to not risk his employment and reputation.
He is still a member but no longer posts.
Thanks for the update, with so many sudden deaths, he was a suspect, all the power to him.
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No, bro. No?
Tbh higher volume with a lot less intensity is better, as long as there's progressive overload
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Someone from the forum was harassing him offline so he stopped posting so as to not risk his employment and reputation.
He is still a member but no longer posts.
Wow that fucking sucks!!! Don’t know why scumbags gotta take it offline to harass people and interfere w their real lives. Now the board is down ANOTHER solid member. I don’t blame him though, I’d have done the same thing.
That fucking sucks.....good guy, glad to know that he`s OK.
x2
Thanks for the update, with so many sudden deaths, he was a suspect, all the power to him.
x2
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Whoa, slow down there, slugger.
I used to be a foreman for my family's water-sewer pipe construction company. In those days (early 2000s), Mexicans were rapidly replacing black guys on most construction jobs.
Not so for Haynes Construction. We had a core group of men who had been with the company since my late, great father turned the reigns over to me. I'd grown up with some of these guys and regarded them like family.
One day, we were working on a new subdivision, and some asshole that lived almost a mile away rolled up and started screaming at my crew. This putz ranted about all manner of irrational nonsense until I told him to fuck off.
I was mad about it the rest of the day until June "Bug" came to me and said, "Don't you fret that man. You take a man who think he know everything, and he don't know a goddamned thing."
I don't pretend to know everything, by a long shot. However:
Where was it written that a HIT trainer can't warm up?
He did six to eight hard work sets. The ones preceding them were not too hard.
In fairness, that's not altogether different from moderate volume training routines.
However, I have read his training manual, and you exaggerate. Why?
I'm not wrong.
I've no axe to grind with you, mate, but you seem overly hung up on training volume, be it stupidly high (the Defendis sort) or low.
Samir Bannout also trained with Mike and Ray. They were friends. Samir noted that the Mentzer's sessions were shorter than his because he did an extra set or two beyond where they stopped. If memory serves, he said Mike would finish his session in about 30-45 minutes (which is consistent with Pollock's recollection); and Samir, 45 min. to an hour.
I have little problem with his training recommendations up to and including what he outlined in his '92 edition of _Heavy Duty_. It's not perfect, but it served me well enough as a teen. What came after...Oy. Resting a week between sessions, and only doing 2-3 movements per workout?
As Trevor Smith said, that shit went into outer space.
Yes, you are wrong.
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That fucking sucks.....good guy, glad to know that he`s OK.
oldtimer1 is back.. A great guy too...
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Yes, you are wrong.
Okay Rimjob.
See you next month!