Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Rmj11 on June 21, 2026, 02:10:54 AM
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s=QB-YdaaOMBvPrFTZ
The biggest problem with John's poor argument is that he starts by assuming his conclusion. He says Dorian trained with one working set taken beyond failure, therefore Dorian was doing HIT. He wasnt but that's not actually the debate. The debate is whether Dorian's training was the same thing as Arthur Jones' and Mike Mentzer's HIT philosophy.
Dorian himself repeatedly admitted over the years that his training evolved beyond pure HIT. He performed multiple warm up sets aka pyramid/ramp sets, often multiple exercises per body part, and his total workload was far higher than what Arthur Jones originally prescribed. By the time Dorian was at his peak, he wasn't doing "one set and go home." He was doing several exercises for each muscle group, often accumulating far more work than HIT dreamers like to admit.
John tries to dismiss warm up sets by saying they "don't count." That's convenient, but muscles don't know whether a set is labelled warm up or working set. If you're doing 10 reps with 315 before incline pressing 405, your body is still performing work. Fatigue accumulates. Training stress accumulates. To say those sets magically don't matter because they're called warm ups is a semantic trick.
Another weakness is his definition of HIT. He basically redefines HIT as "training to failure." If that's the definition, then Arnold, Ferrigno, Platz, Haney, Coleman and countless volume trainers were doing HIT whenever they pushed a set to failure. The term becomes meaningless. Historically, HIT wasn't just training to failure. It was a complete training philosophy centred around minimal volume, infrequent training and usually one all out set per exercise. That's why people debate whether Dorian was truly HIT or not, answer is he wasn't.
He also claims that multiple sets beyond failure provide no additional benefit and may even be detrimental. The problem is that bodybuilding history doesn't support such a sweeping claim. Arnold trained with high volume. Nubret trained with enormous volume. Sergio trained with high volume. Ronnie Coleman trained with high volume. Jay Cutler trained with high volume. Lee Haney trained with moderate to high volume. These men built some of the greatest physiques in history without relying on a single all out set per exercise.
Then there's the contradiction about recovery. He says Dorian's routine worked because of one all out set, but later admits enhanced bodybuilders recover differently due to drug use. That's a huge factor. Dorian wasn't just another guy training hard. He was an elite genetic outlier using pharmaceutical assistance, eating perfectly, sleeping perfectly and dedicating his life to recovery. You can't isolate one variable and claim the success came entirely from HIT.
The claim that training muscles more frequently is "dumb" is also overly simplistic. Modern research consistently shows that weekly volume is a major driver of hypertrophy. Frequency is simply a way of distributing that volume. Plenty of natural lifters make excellent gains training a muscle two or three times per week. If frequency didn't work, Olympic weightlifters, powerlifters and many successful bodybuilders would all be failing to progress.
What really happened is that Dorian created a hybrid system. He took the intensity concepts of Jones and Mentzer, combined them with more exercises, more total work and practical experience, then adapted them to his own recovery abilities and drug enhanced physiology. That's why Dorian himself has described his training as a hybrid over the years.
Ironically, John even admits this in the video, then spends the rest of the video arguing it isn't a hybrid.
The reality is that Dorian's success doesn't prove HIT is superior any more than Arnold's success proves high volume is superior. It proves that an extraordinarily gifted, drug-assisted, hyper-disciplined athlete found a system that worked for him, which wasn't that much different to how many pro's trained.
That's a very different claim from "HIT is the best way to train."
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By the time Dorian was at his peak, he wasn't doing "one set and go home." He was doing several exercises for each muscle group, often accumulating far more work than HIT dreamers like to admit.
I don't really agree with your characterization. It wasn't a pyramid like for most trainees in that the preceding sets were only enough to warm up as little as possible without really causing any fatigue that would hamper the top set. Lots of critics have said Dorian's routine wasn't what he claimed; IMO it was exactly as claimed. It really changes how you lift when you eye the top set as the only one that causes the adaptation. The others didn't really care if they beat their previous best at the top of the pyramid. They just lifted "hard" instead of feeling a need for it to be progressive, preferably each workout. It's just not the same with this mentality, the top set will be different and you'll demand more. His lifting also got more brief as time went on and now he says he would have cut it even more in retrospect.
Many "experts" have claimed that volume is really the main driver and I don't agree with that "science" at all, it's not what the science shows IMO. Also, "naturals" don't make excellent progress, no matter what you do it grinds to a halt extremely quickly, almost all growth comes when starting out. If someone makes "great gains" much later it's because they were drugging.
One of my pet peeves is guys who have been lifting for decades saying they're making great gains. No, they are regaining, actual new, never before held tissue is hard to come by.
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Agreed, Van
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Doesn't matter, training that hard just leads to injury.
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Doesn't matter, training that hard just leads to injury.
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I am so sick of this training debate GARBAGE!
WHO CARES!
Find what works for you. Maybe it's a bunch of sets. Maybe it's a few sets. Maybe you respond better to low reps.
If you're not happy with your progress, perhaps you need to train a bit harder?
Are you not happy with your body fat? Then eat less.
Maybe you only like doing tricep pushdowns. Are you happy with your arm size? If yes, then that's fine. No you don't have to do skull crushers.
Do you enjoy squatting to 90 degrees instead of ATG? Are you having fun in the gym? Do you look forward to squatting the way you are? Then that's fine. Or learn to squat deeper. No one cares what you do.
Just do what you want and enjoy yourself! There is no international gym police force that keeps watch over all gyms and the exercises people choose.
The basic exercises work and have worked for decades. Find what feels good, what you can connect to, and just get stronger. If your form is locked in, if youre eating sensibly, and if you're consistent over time, you'll be fine.
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I would think if you just came in and did one heavy set to failure you’d hurt yourself. I need to warm up. No way could I just go in and pound out a set of 275-300 on a bench or squat. My joints and tendons would break.
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I would think if you just came in and did one heavy set to failure you’d hurt yourself. I need to warm up. No way could I just go in and pound out a set of 275-300 on a bench or squat. My joints and tendons would break.
No matter the lift or how strong or weak I am in it, I always start with an empty bar. I would be crippled without warming up.
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Also, "naturals" don't make excellent progress, no matter what you do it grinds to a halt extremely quickly, almost all growth comes when starting out. If someone makes "great gains" much later it's because they were drugging.
This x 1000. Every "natural" makes awesome gains in the first 2 or 3 years, then it stops. Doesn't matter what training program you use.
I went from ~155 pounds to ~185 in a little over 2.5 years when i started. The it slowed down to being negligible. Any mass gains I made after that period were just fat.
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This x 1000. Every "natural" makes awesome gains in the first 2 or 3 years, then it stops. Doesn't matter what training program you use.
I went from ~155 pounds to ~185 in a little over 2.5 years when i started. The it slowed down to being negligible. Any mass gains I made after that period were just fat.
Wag Bennett, Joe Weider, and Paul Graham would’ve made you an Olympia champion 😂
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Wag Bennett, Joe Weider, and Paul Graham would’ve made you an Olympia champion 😂
lol - I know, right?
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LOL, mentzer basically stole the Heavy Dooty concept from Art Jones HIT bullshit. And AJ based his HIT training on his own 'Colorado Experiment' which is the biggest bullshit fraud in the history of sport/fitness/bodybuilding.
Lol, Casey gained 62 lbs of muscle in 8 weeks and 12 workouts. Oh wait it was 42 lbs but he lost 20lbs of fat so it was a gain of 62 lbs.
Royalty actually believes that load of shit!!! Lol🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Holy fuck how can a grown man be that stupid?
Don't worry roy even AJ and Mike can't make YOU a champ. Lol!
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s=QB-YdaaOMBvPrFTZ
The biggest problem with John's poor argument is that he starts by assuming his conclusion. He says Dorian trained with one working set taken beyond failure, therefore Dorian was doing HIT. He wasnt but that's not actually the debate. The debate is whether Dorian's training was the same thing as Arthur Jones' and Mike Mentzer's HIT philosophy.
Dorian himself repeatedly admitted over the years that his training evolved beyond pure HIT. He performed multiple warm up sets aka pyramid/ramp sets, often multiple exercises per body part, and his total workload was far higher than what Arthur Jones originally prescribed. By the time Dorian was at his peak, he wasn't doing "one set and go home." He was doing several exercises for each muscle group, often accumulating far more work than HIT dreamers like to admit.
John tries to dismiss warm up sets by saying they "don't count." That's convenient, but muscles don't know whether a set is labelled warm up or working set. If you're doing 10 reps with 315 before incline pressing 405, your body is still performing work. Fatigue accumulates. Training stress accumulates. To say those sets magically don't matter because they're called warm ups is a semantic trick.
Another weakness is his definition of HIT. He basically redefines HIT as "training to failure." If that's the definition, then Arnold, Ferrigno, Platz, Haney, Coleman and countless volume trainers were doing HIT whenever they pushed a set to failure. The term becomes meaningless. Historically, HIT wasn't just training to failure. It was a complete training philosophy centred around minimal volume, infrequent training and usually one all out set per exercise. That's why people debate whether Dorian was truly HIT or not, answer is he wasn't.
He also claims that multiple sets beyond failure provide no additional benefit and may even be detrimental. The problem is that bodybuilding history doesn't support such a sweeping claim. Arnold trained with high volume. Nubret trained with enormous volume. Sergio trained with high volume. Ronnie Coleman trained with high volume. Jay Cutler trained with high volume. Lee Haney trained with moderate to high volume. These men built some of the greatest physiques in history without relying on a single all out set per exercise.
Then there's the contradiction about recovery. He says Dorian's routine worked because of one all out set, but later admits enhanced bodybuilders recover differently due to drug use. That's a huge factor. Dorian wasn't just another guy training hard. He was an elite genetic outlier using pharmaceutical assistance, eating perfectly, sleeping perfectly and dedicating his life to recovery. You can't isolate one variable and claim the success came entirely from HIT.
The claim that training muscles more frequently is "dumb" is also overly simplistic. Modern research consistently shows that weekly volume is a major driver of hypertrophy. Frequency is simply a way of distributing that volume. Plenty of natural lifters make excellent gains training a muscle two or three times per week. If frequency didn't work, Olympic weightlifters, powerlifters and many successful bodybuilders would all be failing to progress.
What really happened is that Dorian created a hybrid system. He took the intensity concepts of Jones and Mentzer, combined them with more exercises, more total work and practical experience, then adapted them to his own recovery abilities and drug enhanced physiology. That's why Dorian himself has described his training as a hybrid over the years.
Ironically, John even admits this in the video, then spends the rest of the video arguing it isn't a hybrid.
The reality is that Dorian's success doesn't prove HIT is superior any more than Arnold's success proves high volume is superior. It proves that an extraordinarily gifted, drug-assisted, hyper-disciplined athlete found a system that worked for him, which wasn't that much different to how many pro's trained.
That's a very different claim from "HIT is the best way to train."
Shutup.
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Hey Roy, if you start now, you can gain 62 pounds of muscle by August 22nd.
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LMFAO @ "prepare your anus"
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Brutal if true
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(https://content.imageresizer.com/images/memes/Angry-Ewok-meme-3.jpg)
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^^^ Very cute.
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Shutup.
Facts hurt your feelings, aw.
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I don't really agree with your characterization. It wasn't a pyramid like for most trainees in that the preceding sets were only enough to warm up as little as possible without really causing any fatigue that would hamper the top set. Lots of critics have said Dorian's routine wasn't what he claimed; IMO it was exactly as claimed. It really changes how you lift when you eye the top set as the only one that causes the adaptation. The others didn't really care if they beat their previous best at the top of the pyramid. They just lifted "hard" instead of feeling a need for it to be progressive, preferably each workout. It's just not the same with this mentality, the top set will be different and you'll demand more. His lifting also got more brief as time went on and now he says he would have cut it even more in retrospect.
Many "experts" have claimed that volume is really the main driver and I don't agree with that "science" at all, it's not what the science shows IMO. Also, "naturals" don't make excellent progress, no matter what you do it grinds to a halt extremely quickly, almost all growth comes when starting out. If someone makes "great gains" much later it's because they were drugging.
One of my pet peeves is guys who have been lifting for decades saying they're making great gains. No, they are regaining, actual new, never before held tissue is hard to come by.
Van, you're proving my point rather than refuting it.
First, saying Dorian's earlier sets were "only enough to warm up" doesn't magically make them irrelevant. They still involved progressively heavier loads, generated fatigue, and contributed to the total training stress. Muscles don't know whether you call a set a "warm up" or a "working set." If you're doing multiple progressively heavier sets before a 400+ lb lift, that's still volume.
Second, you're redefining HIT to protect the argument. Arthur Jones and methzer promoted minimal volume, typically one all out working set per exercise. Dorian routinely performed several ramping sets, multiple exercises per body part, and far more total work than Jones originally advocated. That's why Dorian himself later described his training as a hybrid.
Third, claiming "the top set is the only one that causes adaptation" is simply an assertion. The evidence doesn't support such an all or nothing view. Hypertrophy is driven by the cumulative stimulus from training, not one magical set while every previous set somehow contributes nothing.
Fourth, dismissing volume by saying "science doesn't show that" ignores the broader body of evidence. The relationship between training volume and muscle growth has been demonstrated repeatedly. That doesn't mean infinite volume is better, but it certainly doesn't support the claim that one all out set is universally optimal.
Finally, your comment about naturals making little progress actually weakens the HIT argument. If drug-assisted elite bodybuilders like Dorian required multiple exercises, heavy ramping, and substantial total work to become champions, why would naturals supposedly thrive on even less?
The reality is simple. Dorian was not training exactly as Arthur Jones prescribed. He evolved beyond pure HIT, incorporated more volume and practical experience, and built a system that worked for him. That's a very different claim from saying "classic HIT is the best way to train" which it isn't.
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I am so sick of this training debate GARBAGE!
WHO CARES!
Find what works for you. Maybe it's a bunch of sets. Maybe it's a few sets. Maybe you respond better to low reps.
If you're not happy with your progress, perhaps you need to train a bit harder?
Are you not happy with your body fat? Then eat less.
Maybe you only like doing tricep pushdowns. Are you happy with your arm size? If yes, then that's fine. No you don't have to do skull crushers.
Do you enjoy squatting to 90 degrees instead of ATG? Are you having fun in the gym? Do you look forward to squatting the way you are? Then that's fine. Or learn to squat deeper. No one cares what you do.
Just do what you want and enjoy yourself! There is no international gym police force that keeps watch over all gyms and the exercises people choose.
The basic exercises work and have worked for decades. Find what feels good, what you can connect to, and just get stronger. If your form is locked in, if youre eating sensibly, and if you're consistent over time, you'll be fine.
You're changing the subject. Nobody is arguing that people shouldn't experiment or find what works for them.
The discussion is whether Dorian Yates trained according to Arthur Jones' original HIT philosophy. Those are two completely different questions.
If "whatever works" is the answer, then the HIT crowd also needs to stop claiming that one all out set is the scientifically superior way to train. You can't spend decades insisting HIT is the only logical method, then suddenly retreat to "just do what you enjoy" whenever someone points out Dorian's routine wasn't classic HIT.
I completely agree that consistency, progressive overload, good nutrition and proper exercise selection matter. That's exactly why Arnold, Haney, Coleman, Cutler, Nubret, Pearl and countless other champions built incredible physiques using multiple sets and higher volume training.
So if the conclusion is "different approaches can work," then we've already abandoned the original HIT claim that one all out set is the optimal or only effective way to build muscle. That's precisely the point many of us have been making all along.
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This x 1000. Every "natural" makes awesome gains in the first 2 or 3 years, then it stops. Doesn't matter what training program you use.
I went from ~155 pounds to ~185 in a little over 2.5 years when i started. The it slowed down to being negligible. Any mass gains I made after that period were just fat.
So true, I remember when I first joined a gym at age 16 I went from 105 lbs to 115 lbs in one week, that's 10 lbs of muscle in one week, and I was not gaining any fat, it was all muscle
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Van, you're proving my point rather than refuting it.
First, saying Dorian's earlier sets were "only enough to warm up" doesn't magically make them irrelevant. They still involved progressively heavier loads, generated fatigue, and contributed to the total training stress. Muscles don't know whether you call a set a "warm up" or a "working set." If you're doing multiple progressively heavier sets before a 400+ lb lift, that's still volume.
Second, you're redefining HIT to protect the argument. Arthur Jones and methzer promoted minimal volume, typically one all out working set per exercise. Dorian routinely performed several ramping sets, multiple exercises per body part, and far more total work than Jones originally advocated. That's why Dorian himself later described his training as a hybrid.
Third, claiming "the top set is the only one that causes adaptation" is simply an assertion. The evidence doesn't support such an all or nothing view. Hypertrophy is driven by the cumulative stimulus from training, not one magical set while every previous set somehow contributes nothing.
Fourth, dismissing volume by saying "science doesn't show that" ignores the broader body of evidence. The relationship between training volume and muscle growth has been demonstrated repeatedly. That doesn't mean infinite volume is better, but it certainly doesn't support the claim that one all out set is universally optimal.
Finally, your comment about naturals making little progress actually weakens the HIT argument. If drug-assisted elite bodybuilders like Dorian required multiple exercises, heavy ramping, and substantial total work to become champions, why would naturals supposedly thrive on even less?
The reality is simple. Dorian was not training exactly as Arthur Jones prescribed. He evolved beyond pure HIT, incorporated more volume and practical experience, and built a system that worked for him. That's a very different claim from saying "classic HIT is the best way to train" which it isn't.
There are several points you are making and I'll address a couple. Maybe I'll add more later when I've had my coffee LOL.
I didn't assert that the one "working set" is the only one that causes adaptation. What I said was that if you think that that one set is the only relevant one it changes everything, which I know from my own lifting. I've lifted pretty "HIT" since I started more than 35 years ago. Everything about my early sets is about preserving every ounce of strength or even increasing it through neural factors, by sort of priming the nervous system. I'll give an example from my own lifting. If I was going to deadlift 700+ for reps I'd do not much more than 10 reps total for warmups. It could be 10 sets of 1 on progressive loads, just to get a feel for the weights and getting the proper groove in. Damn close to zero fatigue and any fatigue would would be cancelled out by the neural priming. And then if the top set turned out extremely hard with slow grinding reps it often made it impossible to recover in 1 week to progress again - a workout consisting of about a dozen reps total, 10 of which hardly caused any fatigue at all.
Now I'll be lazy and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong but I somehow remember Mentzer and Yates felt Jones' volume or frequency was too high actually?
Regarding volume vs "intensity" or load progression, I feel if a lifter increases his squat from 315 x 10 to 405 x 20 for a single working set he does every two weeks, over time, he will have more hypertrophy than someone doing more and more volume on sets with "reps in reserve" with 315 over time.
I've used this example before. Chris doing a set of hacks at 6:00. Is this how every pro lifts all the time? It is not in my opinion. How often does a pro actually fail a rep on a squatting movement? The mind balks. Without Dorian there he would not have done that. That's what I mean by thinking the one set causes the adaptation, the approach becomes very different, not that volume causes zero adaptation. It does.
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Have you yourself done a lot of "to the death" sets (LOL) on say squats with considerable loads? Like I think Dorian said, with this type of training it was not uncommon to come home and crash and fall asleep before even getting nutrition in. Or even before a shower LOL.
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There are several points you are making and I'll address a couple. Maybe I'll add more later when I've had my coffee LOL.
I didn't assert that the one "working set" is the only one that causes adaptation. What I said was that if you think that that one set is the only relevant one it changes everything, which I know from my own lifting. I've lifted pretty "HIT" since I started more than 35 years ago. Everything about my early sets is about preserving every ounce of strength or even increasing it through neural factors, by sort of priming the nervous system. I'll give an example from my own lifting. If I was going to deadlift 700+ for reps I'd do not much more than 10 reps total for warmups. It could be 10 sets of 1 on progressive loads, just to get a feel for the weights and getting the proper groove in. Damn close to zero fatigue and any fatigue would would be cancelled out by the neural priming. And then if the top set turned out extremely hard with slow grinding reps it often made it impossible to recover in 1 week to progress again - a workout consisting of about a dozen reps total, 10 of which hardly caused any fatigue at all.
Now I'll be lazy and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong but I somehow remember Mentzer and Yates felt Jones' volume or frequency was too high actually?
Regarding volume vs "intensity" or load progression, I feel if a lifter increases his squat from 315 x 10 to 405 x 20 for a single working set he does every two weeks, over time, he will have more hypertrophy than someone doing more and more volume on sets with "reps in reserve" with 315 over time.
I've used this example before. Chris doing a set of hacks at 6:00. Is this how every pro lifts all the time? It is not in my opinion. How often does a pro actually fail a rep on a squatting movement? The mind balks. Without Dorian there he would not have done that. That's what I mean by thinking the one set causes the adaptation, the approach becomes very different, not that volume causes zero adaptation. It does.
=364
Have you yourself done a lot of "to the death" sets (LOL) on say squats with considerable loads? Like I think Dorian said, with this type of training it was not uncommon to come home and crash and fall asleep before even getting nutrition in. Or even before a shower LOL.
Van, this still doesn’t answer the central point.
You’re now softening the claim from “Dorian did HIT” to “Dorian’s top set was psychologically the most important.” That is not the same argument.
Nobody said ramping sets have to be taken to failure to count as training stress. That’s a strawman. The point is that Dorian’s training involved more than one meaningful exposure to load. Heavy progressive warm ups, multiple exercises, and repeated top sets across a workout all contribute to total workload, skill practice, joint/tendon preparation, neural efficiency, and fatigue management. Calling them “warm ups” doesn’t make them disappear.
Your deadlift example actually proves the distinction. Ten singles with light progressive loads before a 700 lb deadlift might not create much fatigue, but that is not the same as bodybuilding ramp sets before presses, rows, hacks, leg presses, pulldowns, curls, laterals, etc. Dorian was not just doing ten token singles and one magic rep. He was accumulating hard work across several exercises.
Also, saying “Mentzer and Yates thought Jones used too much volume/frequency” doesn’t prove Dorian was pure HIT. It proves HIT itself kept being modified because the original Jones version was not universally practical. Mentzer modified Jones. Dorian modified Mentzer. That is exactly why calling Dorian’s routine “classic HIT” is misleading.
Your squat example is another false comparison. Of course someone who takes their squat from 315 x 10 to 405 x 20 will grow more than someone forever doing easy 315 sets with reps in reserve. But nobody is defending pointless junk volume with no progression. Volume training still requires progressive overload. The real comparison would be:
1 hard set progressing over time
versus
multiple hard sets progressing over time.
And historically, bodybuilding has overwhelmingly shown that multiple productive sets work extremely well.
You’re also mixing strength expression with hypertrophy stimulus. A single all out set may be great for testing yourself, but hypertrophy is not only about proving strength on one heroic set. It is about accumulating enough effective tension and workload over time to force adaptation while still recovering.
The Chris Cormier example doesn’t prove one set is superior either. It proves Dorian could motivate someone to push harder. Great. But intensity of effort and training volume are not enemies. A lifter can train hard and still use multiple sets. Arnold, Haney, Coleman, Cutler, Pearl, Nubret and countless others did exactly that.
And the “to the death” squat question is another dodge. Nobody needs to collapse after every workout to build muscle. In fact, if every session destroys you so badly that recovery becomes the limiting factor, that is not superior training. That is just poor fatigue management.
The real issue remains unchanged. Dorian’s system was not Arthur Jones style HIT. It was a modified, practical, drug era, elite bodybuilder hybrid using heavy ramping, multiple exercises, low to moderate volume, extreme effort, and careful recovery. It is not proof that classic one set HIT is the best way to train.
So the HIT crowd can’t have it both ways. Either Dorian was a hybrid case who adapted the method heavily, or you admit HIT is so loosely defined that almost any hard bodybuilding routine can be called HIT.
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Any natural will gain more from volume than HIT. A lot more. As an example look at prisoners. Many of those guys are jacked as fuck with no steroids, supplements and an awful diet. They get that way from doing lots of volume.
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If your training didn't work then it's because of the following reasons (pick at least one):
1) You didn't train hard enough you pussy.
2) You didn't eat right you schmuck.
3) You over-trained you dumbsh*t.
5) You didn't ingest "Weider Massive Muscle Powder" you cheap bastid.
6) You need to up the dose you panty-waist.
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If your training didn't work then it's because of the following reasons (pick at least one):
1) You didn't train hard enough you pussy.
2) You didn't eat right you schmuck.
3) You over-trained you dumbsh*t.
5) You didn't ingest "Weider Massive Muscle Powder" you cheap bastid.
6) You need to up the dose you panty-waist.
7) you didn't take Ultimate Orange for a pre workout supplement.
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7) you didn't take Ultimate Orange for a pre workout supplement.
Forgot the pre-workout...thanks!
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The real issue remains unchanged. Dorian’s system was not Arthur Jones style HIT. It was a modified, practical, drug era, elite bodybuilder hybrid using heavy ramping, multiple exercises, low to moderate volume, extreme effort, and careful recovery. It is not proof that classic one set HIT is the best way to train.
So the HIT crowd can’t have it both ways. Either Dorian was a hybrid case who adapted the method heavily, or you admit HIT is so loosely defined that almost any hard bodybuilding routine can be called HIT.
So your contention is that Arthur Jones advocated for less volume than Dorian did? I'm going to look it up shortly, perhaps you are right. In any case Dorian's lifting wasn't the exact sane as every other pro's like many on the forums have claimed. Mentzer certainly made it much more brief; IIRC his last programs were, for example for quads, to hold the legs extended on the leg extension for 20 seconds, every two weeks, that's it LOL. I remember he said he trained one of the Barbarian brothers and had him do one set of leg extentions for 20 reps, two weeks later he did another set and his legs were as big as ever. From an untrained state LOL.
Personally I'm convinced you "need" very little volume to "max out." When I was at my biggest I did that deadlift workout of 12 total reps once a week. I did maybe one set of leg curls and one set of face pulls plus one set of calves that same workout. Every 2-3 weeks I did an upper body session. People at work were like fuck man you're really swole, how much are you lifting? I told them I couldn't even say I was really lifting and they thought I was full of shit.
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7) you didn't take Ultimate Orange for a pre workout supplement.
Forgot the pre-workout...thanks!
To tie stimulants and HIT together, I have a vague recollection of Charles Poliquin saying that no one could do Mike Mentzer style lifting without taking amphetamines while listening to Wagner pre-workout like he did, it was too draining. Something to that effect LOL. I couldn't immediately find it via google (hate when that happens).
Other lifters told me I was "strong" and I'm sure I wouldn't have gotten as strong as I did without my beloved ephedrine, which I used nearly every day for like 15 years straight LOL. For me personally, stimulants really help getting into the mood of lifting hard. The motivation has to be there without them but I think they really add to it. Most of the pre-workouts today are pretty crappy so I go with Rx stims which I feel are actually healthier than some of the OTC stuff out there. But even with a crappy caffeine and beta-alanine overdose PWO the "rush," along with the itching from the beta-alanine LOL, once your brain has associated it with lifting, can help put you into working out mood every time you take it. Everything starts in the mind so stims can really help ;) :D
The UK has some nasty looking PWOs still, look like heart attack in a bottle LOL. My buddy picked up this one, I haven't tried it yet, and here's just 3 of the ingredients. It's over the counter with a colorful label, must be safe right LOL.
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So your contention is that Arthur Jones advocated for less volume than Dorian did? I'm going to look it up shortly, perhaps you are right.
Rmj11 is this in your opinion much less volume than Dorian did?
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More...
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(https://i.postimg.cc/VNhZmGvx/ultimate-duchaine.jpg).
I'll never forget almost doubling my reps on bench after chugging it down. Way better than Mentzer's piss shake I bet.....
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(https://i.postimg.cc/VNhZmGvx/ultimate-duchaine.jpg).
I'll never forget almost doubling my reps on bench after chugging it down. Way better than Mentzer's piss shake I bet.....
Unless Dan hid something illegal in there, you guys can still get some ephedrine, but most Americans are just too stupid and buy crappy PWOs instead LOL. The market has been completely dry here for the longest time, maybe 15 years. On the last days before the ephedra ban I remember I bought 30 bottles of an ephedra stack from a buddy who got it cheap since he was sponsored. Didn't last me long LOL. After that I was using Pakistani 30mg ephedrines which I ordered from the UK but now there's nothing. UK guys, can you still get ephedrine? If so, pleeease get me a hook-up LOL. Seriously.
These were my go to in the late 90s. A whopping 50mg per tab.
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Dorian's training logs -
https://archive.org/details/dorian-yates-training-journal-dorian-yates-croker-2016-compressed/Dorian%20Yates%20Training%20Journal%20-%20Dorian%20Yates%20%28Croker2016%29_compressed/page/n2/mode/1up (https://archive.org/details/dorian-yates-training-journal-dorian-yates-croker-2016-compressed/Dorian%20Yates%20Training%20Journal%20-%20Dorian%20Yates%20%28Croker2016%29_compressed/page/n2/mode/1up) .
Some Dorian fan put up a bunch of stuff there.
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Dorian's training logs -
https://archive.org/details/dorian-yates-training-journal-dorian-yates-croker-2016-compressed/Dorian%20Yates%20Training%20Journal%20-%20Dorian%20Yates%20%28Croker2016%29_compressed/page/n2/mode/1up (https://archive.org/details/dorian-yates-training-journal-dorian-yates-croker-2016-compressed/Dorian%20Yates%20Training%20Journal%20-%20Dorian%20Yates%20%28Croker2016%29_compressed/page/n2/mode/1up) .
Some Dorian fan put up a bunch of stuff there.
Thanks.
What's your take on what I'm debating Rmj11 about? Especially whether Dorian did more or less volume than Jones would have prescribed? I don't know if Dorian could have survived those Jones routines done exactly as is. Too much stuff in a single workout, especially the mixing of upper and lower.
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Unless Dan hid something illegal in there, you guys can still get some ephedrine, but most Americans are just too stupid and buy crappy PWOs instead LOL. The market has been completely dry here for the longest time, maybe 15 years. On the last days before the ephedra ban I remember I bought 30 bottles of an ephedra stack from a buddy who got it cheap since he was sponsored. Didn't last me long LOL. After that I was using Pakistani 30mg ephedrines which I ordered from the UK but now there's nothing. UK guys, can you still get ephedrine? If so, pleeease get me a hook-up LOL. Seriously.
Tried repro-ing it with Bronkaid, Primatine, etc..., plus all the ancillaries. Never got them to measure up to Ultimate Orange. Part of me wonders if some of it is just old good memories, i.e. you never forget your first stack, etc..... but none had the same feeling. I've also seen lab reports on the original version, the Ephedra count was off a decent bit, but there wasn't any secrets :).
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Yates has said in an interview he used to take an ephedrine tablet before every workout.
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Tried repro-ing it with Bronkaid, Primatine, etc..., plus all the ancillaries. Never got them to measure up to Ultimate Orange. Part of me wonders if some of it is just old good memories, i.e. you never forget your first stack, etc..... but none had the same feeling. I've also seen lab reports on the original version, the Ephedra count was off a decent bit, but there wasn't any secrets :).
Many feel stimulants like ephedrine quickly lose effectiveness or the "magic." It never happened to me for some reason, if anything tolerance even went down. I mean I used to take 3+ 50mg tabs a day in the beginning which was just too much later. I remember a couple of powerlifters telling me they took a dozen 25mg tabs before lifting LOL
Many feel the roids today aren't the same either, which I've argued endlessly doesn't make any sense. We were all young and fresh "back then" and the first exposure is usually the best :D
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Thanks.
What's your take on what I'm debating Rmj11 about? Especially whether Dorian did more or less volume than Jones would have prescribed? I don't know if Dorian could have survived those Jones routines done exactly as is. Too much stuff in a single workout, especially the mixing of upper and lower.
It's complicated. Looking at the logs, as it goes on there's almost a high - low, and instinctual element to it. I definitely don't think he could've done well with Jones's mixing. Volume is tricky, as sometimes he's close or at Jones's volume numbers, etc...
Then with training age and more injury, you get a mix of heavy low, and then, even some instinctual, as he pushes some things, and backs off on others.
Later, post those written logs, it gets more Mentzerian.
So, like everyone's training, it was an evolving thing.
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It's complicated. Looking at the logs, as it goes on there's almost a high - low, and instinctual element to it. I definitely don't think he could've done well with Jones's mixing. Volume is tricky, as sometimes he's close or at Jones's volume numbers, etc...
Then with training age and more injury, you get a mix of heavy low, and then, even some instinctual, as he pushes some things, and backs off on others.
Later, post those written logs, it gets more Mentzerian.
So, like everyone's training, it was an evolving thing.
Thanks. He said he used steroids on a 6 weeks on, 3 weeks off cycle. He also advices trainees to go really hard for 5-6 weeks and then train shy of failure for a couple of weeks, and possibly even taking a week off completely from the gym. Now he says he trained too hard and heavy especially during prep which caused his injuries; it was just hard to modify what had worked so well in the beginning. I think he said somewhere now he would only have done 5 minutes of cardio but more intense.
I think overall Yates figured out what worked beautifully. Even the gear plans looked extremely good, in my opinion, considering what info was available pre-internet. Most were not intelligent and logical and regimented enough to set things up like he did, it was just haphazard for most of us. He also apparently had great gear connections, especially the GH, I know for sure even many top pros weren't so lucky always. I've seen first hand and heard second hand how crappy it was a lot of times. Things probably work better if you track everything very closely, lifting but also gear and diet, and then adding the instinctual or feedback element.
Regarding volume, I've tried high on occasion. Like this past year, which I mentioned in the training thread, I tried going hard and heavy and frequent on my arms for many months. The Basile idea of trying to stay sore constantly. But I just don't think it works any better than for example once a week for just a few hard sets. Maybe if you are going from an untrained state back to your previous best you can increase frequency initially to expedite the regaining. And I haven't really seen increased volume do much for anyone else either. Going harder with more purpose, yes. Just my opinion 8)
Random Mentzer pic:
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Many feel stimulants like ephedrine quickly lose effectiveness or the "magic." It never happened to me for some reason, if anything tolerance even went down. I mean I used to take 3+ 50mg tabs a day in the beginning which was just too much later. I remember a couple of powerlifters telling me they took a dozen 25mg tabs before lifting LOL
Many feel the roids today aren't the same either, which I've argued endlessly doesn't make any sense. We were all young and fresh "back then" and the first exposure is usually the best :D
Ha! Ephedra, caffeine and aspirin was the best back then. Once I came across some vicodin and added that in there as well. Felt like I could walk through a brick wall.
The pre-workouts today substitute ephedra with Yohimbe or Alpha Yohimbe. I don't know. Any version of Yohimbe gives me the worst anxiety. Something I never experienced with ephedra.
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Ha! Ephedra, caffeine and aspirin was the best back then. Once I came across some vicodin and added that in there as well. Felt like I could walk through a brick wall.
The pre-workouts today substitute ephedra with Yohimbe or Alpha Yohimbe. I don't know. Any version of Yohimbe gives me the worst anxiety. Something I never experienced with ephedra.
Was a long time since I last used yohimbine. It's been used experimentally to induce anxiety. It was the ED pill before Viagra. I never tried them but several supp companies had ECA stacks with added yohimbine as well. That PWO is posted above has the alpha-yohimbine as well, a very crazy and potentially deadly stim cocktail :o
Haha I remember your Vicodin inclusion in the stack. I've tried a few pain killers with stims. Two or three acetaminophen/codeine combo pills with Vyvance is very nice, my training partner always had those codeines in his gym bag and would share :D
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Ha! Ephedra, caffeine and aspirin was the best back then. Once I came across some vicodin and added that in there as well. Felt like I could walk through a brick wall.
The pre-workouts today substitute ephedra with Yohimbe or Alpha Yohimbe. I don't know. Any version of Yohimbe gives me the worst anxiety. Something I never experienced with ephedra.
Did the Vicodin allow you to carry out sets longer because of less pain?
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Did the Vicodin allow you to carry out sets longer because of less pain?
Nasser said other bodybuilders claimed they used Nubain so they could train harder but instead they trained like grandmas LOL. It's of course typical to try to fool others or even yourself about the real reason for using narcotics, the real reason being emotional pain.
Of course it's possible for pain killers to allow one to train harder. Even a non-narcotic like acetaminophen can help and there's plenty studies. My training partner was a complete mess and he would just complain on and on about his pain despite the pills which he'd taken every day for 15 years. He did train like a maniac though, harder than anyone I've ever seen, was a world class competitive lifter. For me, the codeine allowed for some of my best workouts but some combos made me feel too good. If you actually get euphoric you don't really care about lifting; some anxiety is good and necessary for best lifting IMO. Please excuse the long posts but I think there might be some food for thought in there somewhere 8)
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Did the Vicodin allow you to carry out sets longer because of less pain?
It's a systemic effect. Not just major pains but minor aches. Knees don't hurt, elbows don't hurt, no lower back pain. No fatigue or muscle soreness. Overall you feel lighter because you're pain free. Its a good feeling and your mood and even energy increases. I mean, it's no different than many drugs in that it gets you 'high', its just more of a physical high than a mental high but there's a mental boost as well.
The aspirin opens up your arteries, the ephedra opens up your lungs, the caffeine starts pumping super oxygenated blood through your wide open arteries and you feel no pain. You feel fucking fantastic. Loved it. Wish I had some vicodin right now.
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It's a systemic effect. Not just major pains but minor aches. Knees don't hurt, elbows don't hurt, no lower back pain. No fatigue or muscle soreness. Overall you feel lighter because you're pain free. Its a good feeling and your mood and even energy increases. I mean, it's no different than many drugs in that it gets you 'high', its just more of a physical high than a mental high but there's a mental boost as well.
The aspirin opens up your arteries, the ephedra opens up your lungs, the caffeine starts pumping super oxygenated blood through your wide open arteries and you feel no pain. You feel fucking fantastic. Loved it. Wish I had some vicodin right now.
Your lucky you didn't get addicted.
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Your lucky you didn't get addicted.
The risk is very real and very serious, though I wonder how many of those who happen onto a smaller quantity of pills get addicted. I'm a very 'addictive personality' I think, plus I'm a depressive with very high anxiety so should be extra vulnerable. Quite a few years ago I on occasion was handed 100-200 of those 30mg codeine pills which I ate continuously until out and I didn't get addicted and had no cravings. I have used Kratom a few times for a few months but I had no problem stopping, now it's banned so can't get any and haven't thought about it. Most recently I was taking Oxycontin for a couple of months via Rx out of absolute necessity really. I was really worried when the script ran out as I should have developed some physical addiction at least but luckily I just felt mildly off for about 48 hours. Luckily. In the UK you can get various OTC pain killers with an added 8mg of codeine and I was watching a docu about it where some were hooked from the first dose and it quickly escalated to 100 pills a day, they claimed!!!
A buffy of mine warned me to do everything possible to handle my pain without Oxycontin and the like as he is now on on methadone after having been treated with opioids so much due to several lengthy hospital stays of like 6 months+. It's good advice for sure. There's something positive about the very restrictive Rx policy over here.
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The risk is very real and very serious, though I wonder how many of those who happen onto a smaller quantity of pills get addicted. I'm a very 'addictive personality' I think, plus I'm a depressive with very high anxiety so should be extra vulnerable. Quite a few years ago I on occasion was handed 100-200 of those 30mg codeine pills which I ate continuously until out and I didn't get addicted and had no cravings. I have used Kratom a few times for a few months but I had no problem stopping, now it's banned so can't get any and haven't thought about it. Most recently I was taking Oxycontin for a couple of months via Rx out of absolute necessity really. I was really worried when the script ran out as I should have developed some physical addiction at least but luckily I just felt mildly off for about 48 hours. Luckily. In the UK you can get various OTC pain killers with an added 8mg of codeine and I was watching a docu about it where some were hooked from the first dose and it quickly escalated to 100 pills a day, they claimed!!!
A buffy of mine warned me to do everything possible to handle my pain without Oxycontin and the like as he is now on on methadone after having been treated with opioids so much due to several lengthy hospital stays of like 6 months+. It's good advice for sure. There's something positive about the very restrictive Rx policy over here.
Is your pain all caused from years of lifting?
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Is your pain all caused from years of lifting?
No not at all. The reason I took Oxycontin and the reason docs even wrote a script was I have chronic pancreatitis where the pain can approach 10/10. Let me tell you, several times recently I've called an ambulance or taxi (faster than ambulance many times) rushing to hospital screaming, praying and crying like a bitch pleading for help, utter panic :D They don't write scripts for the good stufff for lifting injuries here, not to me at least. I do have lots of lifting related aches and pains of course having ego lifted since my early teens and trashed my body. Sometimes when my friend gave me codeine before lifting I had sciatica pain or something else but I would have taken them anyway as the session just feels better on mild stuff like this. I did take a tiny 5mg oxy before lifting a couple of times and I felt like I needed to get to bed immediately, soo tired LOL. Plus for some reason that stuff gives me crushing depression, I don't know if that's common ???
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No not at all. The reason I took Oxycontin and the reason docs even wrote a script was I have chronic pancreatitis where the pain can approach 10/10. Let me tell you, several times recently I've called an ambulance or taxi (faster than ambulance many times) rushing to hospital screaming, praying and crying like a bitch pleading for help, utter panic :D They don't write scripts for the good stufff for lifting injuries here, not to me at least. I do have lots of lifting related aches and pains of course having ego lifted since my early teens and trashed my body. Sometimes when my friend gave me codeine before lifting I had sciatica pain or something else but I would have taken them anyway as the session just feels better on mild stuff like this. I did take a tiny 5mg oxy before lifting a couple of times and I felt like I needed to get to bed immediately, soo tired LOL. Plus for some reason that stuff gives me crushing depression, I don't know if that's common ???
Pancreatitis is a bitch.
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Your lucky you didn't get addicted.
Very true.
My first dabble with it was for a legitimate injury and only had so man per my Rx.. Enough to enjoy but not enough to get addicted. That was my first experience with it and it felt so good I would have certainly had a hard time stopping if I had a steady supply.
A few years a later I "came across" a hefty supply. Took it a few times then in a surprising show of will power, flushed the rest down the toilet. At times I regretted doing that but it was probably one of the smarter things I ever did. The guy I got them from DID get addicted and eventually turned to heroin. Sad story. He ended up robbing a convenience store and going to prison. Real shame too. He had a beautiful wife, nice home, a 5 year old son and blew it all.
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A few years a later I "came across" a hefty supply. Took it a few times then in a surprising show of will power, flushed the rest down the toilet. At times I regretted doing that but it was probably one of the smarter things I ever did.
Yeah having easy access is dangerous. I've been swearing at times about not having any access at times when I've been in severe pain but OTOH it's probably good that they are very restrictive here.
I remembered ESFitness' story. I hope he is doing well.
Let's see...
All starts with starting using Nubain in '00/'01 'bout 6months after after graduating H.S.
... Then started alcohol to deal with the Nubain withdrawal in '02/'03. Was clean for bout a year, then back on alcohol, then on then to deal with alcohol withdrawal, then clean, then back on alcohol.. Then rehab, where I met the dude who set me up for the robbery.. Then prison '06-'11 lol.
Then Dr put me on Tramadol, thinking it was non-addictive (I refused scripts for Percocet, Vicodin, and tylenol3 lol) & was on that for maybe 6-9months before they changed the scheduling of Tramadol and I couldn't get a doctor's appointment for 3 weeks and was in withdrawal and a client just so happen to have 1000 Dilaudid tablets, so I used that for a month before going to Cancun on vacation and came back and turns out I used all of her 1000 tablets in that month (was shooting 14-24mg IV 5-10x a day) and she happened to have friends on heroin, so I started using heroin about 2014 and blew $78,000 on heroin in about 15 to 18 months & used alcohol to detox.. Which led to alcohol relapse on top of heroin relapse. Which led to 2 DUI in Aug '16 (clean off heroin since April 14th 2016, went to rehab April 20th 2016)... Then was having chest pain Aug 12th 2017 and got ANOTHER DUI...
So, regrets? Starting opiates, which led to alcohol.... Which led to every fucking problem/bad thing in my life.
My friend is on methadone now due to prescribed oxycodone and he warned me and said to do everything possible to avoid using opiates, though sometimes you simply can't avoid it.
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Yeah having easy access is dangerous. I've been swearing at times about not having any access at times when I've been in severe pain but OTOH it's probably good that they are very restrictive here.
I remembered ESFitness' story. I hope he is doing well.
My friend is on methadone now due to prescribed oxycodone and he warned me and said to do everything possible to avoid using opiates, though sometimes you simply can't avoid it.
They almost work too well.
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I've found Tramadol to be the most effective painkiller in terms of lower side-effects, especially drowsiness.
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I've found Tramadol to be the most effective painkiller in terms of lower side-effects, especially drowsiness.
bhanks said it had no effect whatsoever on him and as it didn't make him itch it wasn't an opioid contrary to all the literature.
I feel the pain killing effect is just so-so but the mood brightening effects are absolutely wonderful. Which could make it treacherous. Back in the day it was thought it was hardly addictive at all. Nowadays here in Sweden it's harder to get an Rx for than oxycodone which is insane. It's what all the little immigrant gang kids sell and eat.
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I take two servings per week of ibuprofen which allows me to complete a push day on Monday and a pull day on Wednesday. I try to take each dose at least 4 hours but preferably 6-8 hours before training. Really does the trick.
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I take two servings per week of ibuprofen which allows me to complete a push day on Monday and a pull day on Wednesday. I try to take each dose at least 4 hours but preferably 6-8 hours before training. Really does the trick.
I don't think that's a dose to be concerned about by any means. Especially is you don't drink alcohol.
If you're interested in something that will alleviate pain, you could try 2 to 3 grams of a green or white leaf Kratom. Years of use and no liver, kidney or BP issues at all. Filipinos, Cambodians, Laotians have been chewing it for centuries with no ill health effects outside of addiction but as far as addictions go it's relatively minor.
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I don't think that's a dose to be concerned about by any means. Especially is you don't drink alcohol.
If you're interested in something that will alleviate pain, you could try 2 to 3 grams of a green or white leaf Kratom. Years of use and no liver, kidney or BP issues at all. Filipinos, Cambodians, Laotians have been chewing it for centuries with no ill health effects outside of addiction but as far as addictions go it's relatively minor.
I've never really paid much attention or read much on kratom. I'll do some reading later. Thanks.
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I've never taken a painkiller for working out, I don't understand the concept
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I've never taken a painkiller for working out, I don't understand the concept
Stop lifting like a dilapidated cunt and see what happens.
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Stop lifting like a dilapidated cunt and see what happens.
The idea is to ''stimulate, don't annihilate''
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The idea is to ''stimulate, don't annihilate''
Brutal but true.
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Its the RED leaf kratom that is best for pain. I have been using it several times a day for years with no issues. I just take a heaping teaspoon a few times a day. It helps way more than tramadol. I don't see any relief with tramadol even if I triple the dosage. Do NOT let big pharma scare you from using it. They don't want people to stop buying their products so they invent horror stories . They cab NOT patent kratom so they say crap to convince people somehow its dangerous. SMH
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The idea is to ''stimulate, don't annihilate''
Have you taken stimulants?
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(https://i.postimg.cc/BvgxS7JT/erhthesrhjtatjhs.png)
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Its the RED leaf kratom that is best for pain. I have been using it several times a day for years with no issues. I just take a heaping teaspoon a few times a day. It helps way more than tramadol. I don't see any relief with tramadol even if I triple the dosage. Do NOT let big pharma scare you from using it. They don't want people to stop buying their products so they invent horror stories . They cab NOT patent kratom so they say crap to convince people somehow its dangerous. SMH
Ive found they all mitigate pain. Red Leaf personally relaxes me too much. If I take it I don't want to work out. Green leaf works just as good imo. White works well but also has a stimulant-like effect.
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I've found Tramadol to be the most effective painkiller in terms of lower side-effects, especially drowsiness.
Dentist gave me Tramadol after an extraction. Aspirin was stronger.
My go to for pain killing is Oxy. But the ultimate is Dilaudid. You could cut off your arm and not feel it.
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I have been using it several times a day for years with no issues.
They don't want people to stop buying their products so they invent horror stories . They cab NOT patent kratom so they say crap to convince people somehow its dangerous. SMH
Anything opiate related can be addictive and I can believe some have real problems so I wouldn't dismiss being cautious especially if you have that "personality." Some products on the market have been spiked with synthetic 7-OH to make them seem better and that would be worse of course. I used it a few times and had little issues coming off. At first I didn't notice much but then I decided to try about 12 grams at once and then the effect was noticeable so I can see why some quickly increased the dose to like 60 plus grams a day (a dose I saw some bodybuilders on forums say they used). My lifting buddy felt he had anxiety on the come down and didn't want to try it again.
If Kratom helps addicts come off harsher synthetics and they can maintain on Kratom then that would be a good thing I think, you can't OD on it either. The 'Kratom lobby' is making this point. The pure 7-OH constituent of Kratom is scheduled like heroin now so that's interesting.
Some of you might still be able to find tianeptine sulphate with some digging. That's an interesting "antidepressant" which I wish I had access to still. "Gas station heroin."
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Anything opiate related can be addictive and I can believe some have real problems so I wouldn't dismiss being cautious especially if you have that "personality." Some products on the market have been spiked with synthetic 7-OH to make them seem better and that would be worse of course. I used it a few times and had little issues coming off. At first I didn't notice much but then I decided to try about 12 grams at once and then the effect was noticeable so I can see why some quickly increased the dose to like 60 plus grams a day (a dose I saw some bodybuilders on forums say they used). My lifting buddy felt he had anxiety on the come down and didn't want to try it again.
If Kratom helps addicts come off harsher synthetics and they can maintain on Kratom then that would be a good thing I think, you can't OD on it either. The 'Kratom lobby' is making this point. The pure 7-OH constituent of Kratom is scheduled like heroin now so that's interesting.
Some of you might still be able to find tianeptine sulphate with some digging. That's an interesting "antidepressant" which I wish I had access to still. "Gas station heroin."
I was going to try Tianpeptine a few years ago, it was available in Portland. But the more I read about it it kind of scared me away. People were saying the effects didn't last long, like 20 mins or half hour, and you built up a tolerance so quick. People were saying this made it easy to get addicted to and withdrawals were like heroin. So I never did try it. I don't know if it is still available or not.
Kratom can be addictive and if you're going over 5 to 10 grams a day it's going to be uncomfortable comming off but it only lasts a week or so. If you're up to 20 or 30 grams a day or more its really going to suck. Its cheap and easily available so people do develop a habit.
7-OH is supposedly much more potent. When it first hit the market I was given free samples of it and I didn't notice much difference but people kept telling me how much stronger and more addictive and stronger it is. So I have avoided it completely.
With regular kratom it doesn't take more than 4 grams to get a good pre workout lift and pain killing effect. If you only use it on work out days, or heavy days like leg days and take a break every couple of days, you should be just fine with no withdrawals.
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I was going to try Tianpeptine a few years ago, it was available in Portland. But the more I read about it it kind of scared me away. People were saying the effects didn't last long, like 20 mins or half hour, and you built up a tolerance so quick. People were saying this made it easy to get addicted to and withdrawals were like heroin. So I never did try it. I don't know if it is still available or not.
Kratom can be addictive and if you're going over 5 to 10 grams a day it's going to be uncomfortable comming off but it only lasts a week or so. If you're up to 20 or 30 grams a day or more its really going to suck. Its cheap and easily available so people do develop a habit.
7-OH is supposedly much more potent. When it first hit the market I was given free samples of it and I didn't notice much difference but people kept telling me how much stronger and more addictive and stronger it is. So I have avoided it completely.
With regular kratom it doesn't take more than 4 grams to get a good pre workout lift and pain killing effect. If you only use it on work out days, or heavy days like leg days and take a break every couple of days, you should be just fine with no withdrawals.
Last round I did of Kratom before it was banned here I had bought 600 grams and took it quickly, 3 x 12 grams a day or so I think. It was a few days of heightened anxiety when I ran out but no big deal. Keep it up for a long period of time and I believe it will indeed suck balls.
AI says 7-OH or mitragynine is a more potent pain killer than morphine. Kratom is another product which had zero effect on Bhanks, I think he said he went through massive amounts of it to no effect, no itching! :D
Tianeptine was really interesting. I think I bought 10 grams. I noticed the opiate effect at 100-120mg per dose. I didn't want to take more as it felt like it was getting somewhat uncomfortable with a thick headed feeling at 120mg. I've read that some ramped it up to like 5 grams a day and even injecting IIRC. It's a French antidepressant medication at like 12mg a few times a day and years ago there was no mention of any opiate receptor agonism, just said it was a tricyclic antidepressant and it was sold by some early life extension websites as an alternative to the more common ADs. Some of the more common SNRIs like venlafaxine have also shown very mild opiate receptor agonism. It's notable that it's still not completely clear how these medications work and this mechanism might be part of the antidepressant effect. I wish it was still available. One big early nootropics vendor has said he got a lot of customers saying it saved their life but then it started to be abused and the FEDs kicked down his door.
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Have you taken stimulants?
Yes, I take C4 pre workout formula
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Yes, I take C4 pre workout formula
Be careful bro.
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Are you drinking protein coffee?
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Are you drinking protein coffee?
Hydrolyzed collagen in your morning coffee is not a bad idea IMO :D
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Are you drinking protein coffee?
Straight from the tap.