Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Nordic Beast on June 21, 2006, 01:18:18 PM
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Having read many of your posts you seem very knowledgeable about human body and the effects that certain "supplements" and medications have on it.
In your expert opinion what is really causing a lot of the renal failure that has been so prevalent lately. Is it a genetically predisposed condition aggravated by the use of huge amounts of Advil...or other "supplements" such as hormones, insulin, Gh or Diuretics...or is it just genetic and bound to happen eventually anyway?
Or is the renal failure primarily caused by the large amounts of "supplements" taken and if so which ones?
I know diabetics are at a risk for renal failure but is that because of obesity, or their insulin problems.
I'm very ignorant on the subject and would be quite interested to here your response on the issue.
Thank you-------------
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KidneyMemory is your friend.
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High blood pressure from juice (and stimulants like coke and speed that many guys use) over the long term is big factor IMO.
Hormones could have negative effects on the kidneys also, other than through BP.
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High blood pressure from juice (and stimulants like coke and speed that many guys use) over the long term is big factor IMO.
Hormones could have negative effects on the kidneys also, other than through BP.
yes hypertension is a factor for renal failure so that makes sense
I wonder if any paticular drug did it or wether it was a culmination of many
Remember Alzono Mourning had renal failure and he wasn't a jucie head like the IFBB pros------he probably did some---but the NBA does drug test
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high blood pressure over many years. many things bodybuilders do can cause high BP, including anabolic steroids, stimulants, and diet. but the key is 'over many years'. a month or two of elevated BP followed by many months of normal BP should not cause any long term damage. but all bodybuilders (really everyone) should monitor their BP regularly.
cutting and pasting from another site:
Your blood pressure measurement consists of two numbers: systolic and diastolic.
* The systolic measurement is the pressure of blood against your artery walls when the heart has just finished pumping (contracting). It is the first or top number of a blood pressure reading.
* The diastolic measurement is the pressure of blood against your artery walls between heartbeats, when the heart is relaxed and filling with blood. It is the second or bottom number in a blood pressure reading.
120 over 80 is considered the top of the normal range. but it's the lower of the two numbers that is more important. athletes in good shape will often have a diastolic (lower number) value in the 60s.
a BP of 120 over 90 would be of more concern than one of 140 over 65.
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high blood pressure over many years. many things bodybuilders do can cause high BP, including anabolic steroids, stimulants, and diet. but the key is 'over many years'. a month or two of elevated BP followed by many months of normal BP should not cause any long term damage.
hmmm thank u------is the advil arguement hold up any weight or is that just a lame excuse?
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what im asking is does advil really have a extremely detremental effect on kidney damage?
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what im asking is does advil really have a extremely detremental effect on kidney damage?
a web search shows people have been worried that Ibuprofen may cause kidney damage since 1997, yet the nih.gov site doesn't list kidney damage as a possible side effect.
any drug can be abused. I'm sure weeks and months of heavy use could cause problems. If you're concerned about Advil, don't use it or only use it occasionally. If you're using an analgesic many times a day for weeks at a time, you need to fix the underlying problem.
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------is the advil arguement hold up any weight or is that just a lame excuse?
Ummmmm..... why do you think we all make fun of it?
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Ummmmm..... why do you think we all make fun of it?
IM not retarded but I was wondering if Advil is a lot harsher than say tylenol on the kidneys if taken regularly and if it can dramatically increase the chances for renal failure if someone has an elevated Blood pressure over a long period of time caused by "supplements"---------------------------
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Nordic, funny you should ask this is as I am a renal specialist. This is my job for a living; I also take care of dialysis patients on a daily basis. Mr. Fogarty is correct for the most part. If you want to get technical, normal BP by JNC VII (national conference on BP management and guidelines....link below) basically states that normal BP is 140/90 or better. However, to be techical, A BP of 120-139/80-89 is considered pre-hypertensive. In fact, in patients over 50 years of age, SBP (the higher number) is actually more dangerous as it conveys increased risk for stroke or MI (heart attack).
To answer your question, the reason that Advil and its variants such as Naproxen, Fenoprofren, etc are so bad if abused daily is that they have two effects on the kidney. First, they cause a depletion of vasodilator prostaglandins which are important to maintain perfusion in the kidneys. Thus, if you abuse these at length, they can cause a hemodynamic shift with a relative hypoperfusion of the kidneys (i.e. blood doesn't get to the kidneys). Long term this is bad. They also raise BP as they increase Na uptake in the kidney and once again deplete prostaglandins, which are vasodilators. Moreover, sometimes, daily abuse can actually cause an inflammatory reaction in the kidneys called Acute Interstitial Nephritis. This is often manifested by large amounts of protein being dumped out of your body thru the urine (bad...called nephrotic syndrome if you want to look it up). It can also lead to acute renal failure....usually reversible if the NSAIDs are stopped. Chronically, NSAIDs like Advil cause scarring of the kidney and decrease renal function. Thus, you get a syndrome called Chronic Interstitial Nephritis and it is ballgame for the beans. Typically, these people have irreversible kidney damage and often progress to renal failure requiring dialysis. I suspect Mr. Prince had acute renal failure from a hemodynamic mediated effect as he was probably also taking diuretics (bad combo). Well, hope that helps. I tried to make it as non-technical as i could, but it is a very complicated process. Peace.
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/hypertension/
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P.S.....Tylenol is nowhere near as harsh as Advil. If you want a link, here it is. I can refer you to technical sites, but unless you are an M.D. it would not be useful. However, this blog is very informative.
http://clinicalcases.blogspot.com/2004/04/nsaids-induced-acute-renal-failure.html
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Nordic, funny you should ask this is as I am a renal specialist. This is my job for a living; I also take care of dialysis patients on a daily basis. Mr. Fogarty is correct for the most part. If you want to get technical, normal BP by JNC VII (national conference on BP management and guidelines....link below) basically states that normal BP is 140/90 or better. However, to be techical, A BP of 120-139/80-89 is considered pre-hypertensive. In fact, in patients over 50 years of age, SBP (the higher number) is actually more dangerous as it conveys increased risk for stroke or MI (heart attack).
To answer your question, the reason that Advil and its variants such as Naproxen, Fenoprofren, etc are so bad if abused daily is that they have two effects on the kidney. First, they cause a depletion of vasodilator prostaglandins which are important to maintain perfusion in the kidneys. Thus, if you abuse these at length, they can cause a hemodynamic shift with a relative hypoperfusion of the kidneys (i.e. blood doesn't get to the kidneys). Long term this is bad. They also raise BP as they increase Na uptake in the kidney and once again deplete prostaglandins, which are vasodilators. Moreover, sometimes, daily abuse can actually cause an inflammatory reaction in the kidneys called Acute Interstitial Nephritis. This is often manifested by large amounts of protein being dumped out of your body thru the urine (bad...called nephrotic syndrome if you want to look it up). It can also lead to acute renal failure....usually reversible if the NSAIDs are stopped. Chronically, NSAIDs like Advil cause scarring of the kidney and decrease renal function. Thus, you get a syndrome called Chronic Interstitial Nephritis and it is ballgame for the beans. Typically, these people have irreversible kidney damage and often progress to renal failure requiring dialysis. I suspect Mr. Prince had acute renal failure from a hemodynamic mediated effect as he was probably also taking diuretics (bad combo). Well, hope that helps. I tried to make it as non-technical as i could, but it is a very complicated process. Peace.
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/hypertension/
quite interesting----------thank you very much--it really helped clear up my ignorance on the matter
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Nordic, funny you should ask this is as I am a renal specialist.
yeah, but I was married to a doctor. put him through residency. then he dump me. but I'm not bitter.
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Damn Tim, that sucks. Not all docs are such a-holes. You have a really good grasp of physiology. Are you by chance in the medical field by chance? BTW, I am confused and unfortunately don't know your history. You were married and "he" dumped you. I always thought you were a dude. If not, was it a typo ;D or do you live in California...just joshing. Anyway, always good to hear your posts as you are so very informed and taught me a lot about different aspects of bodybuilding. Cheers.
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Nordic, funny you should ask this is as I am a renal specialist. This is my job for a living; I also take care of dialysis patients on a daily basis. Mr. Fogarty is correct for the most part. If you want to get technical, normal BP by JNC VII (national conference on BP management and guidelines....link below) basically states that normal BP is 140/90 or better. However, to be techical, A BP of 120-139/80-89 is considered pre-hypertensive. In fact, in patients over 50 years of age, SBP (the higher number) is actually more dangerous as it conveys increased risk for stroke or MI (heart attack).
To answer your question, the reason that Advil and its variants such as Naproxen, Fenoprofren, etc are so bad if abused daily is that they have two effects on the kidney. First, they cause a depletion of vasodilator prostaglandins which are important to maintain perfusion in the kidneys. Thus, if you abuse these at length, they can cause a hemodynamic shift with a relative hypoperfusion of the kidneys (i.e. blood doesn't get to the kidneys). Long term this is bad. They also raise BP as they increase Na uptake in the kidney and once again deplete prostaglandins, which are vasodilators. Moreover, sometimes, daily abuse can actually cause an inflammatory reaction in the kidneys called Acute Interstitial Nephritis. This is often manifested by large amounts of protein being dumped out of your body thru the urine (bad...called nephrotic syndrome if you want to look it up). It can also lead to acute renal failure....usually reversible if the NSAIDs are stopped. Chronically, NSAIDs like Advil cause scarring of the kidney and decrease renal function. Thus, you get a syndrome called Chronic Interstitial Nephritis and it is ballgame for the beans. Typically, these people have irreversible kidney damage and often progress to renal failure requiring dialysis. I suspect Mr. Prince had acute renal failure from a hemodynamic mediated effect as he was probably also taking diuretics (bad combo). Well, hope that helps. I tried to make it as non-technical as i could, but it is a very complicated process. Peace.
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/hypertension/
Well said, you may want to stop over at the TP thread and explain to some of the posters there why someone on hemodialysis would have a very hard time maintaining their physique.
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can't tell the players without a program
You were married and "he" dumped you. I always thought you were a dude. If not, was it a typo ;D or do you live in California...just joshing.
yes, I'm a dude (well, I'm male) and yes I live in california, but while we now have domestic partnerships in california that is 99% what Massachusetts has with same sex marriage, back when Nick and I were together they didn't have that. nor am I sure we would have made that kind of a commitment at that time.
btw, while Massachusetts same sex marriage was decided by judges (so what? so was Loving v Virginia, so was Brown v Board of Education), the California legislature has passed same sex marriage, but Arnold vetoed it. But the governator is up for reelection, and the Democratic candidate Angelides has said he'll sign it. And I have a gut feeling that once he has no more elections ahead of him, Arnold might just sign it too.
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Tim, I could care less of your sexual predispostion. One of my closest friends is gay, and he could be the biggest player ever as he is just plain cool. Politically, I am conservative, but I think the government should keep their noses out of peoples personal affairs. Regardless, I always enjoy your posts and am most impressed with your fund of knowledge. Have a great day. Peace.
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when Nick and I were together they didn't have that.
Wait, that was YOU that was dating Nick on the side?
I am so angry I can barely type. you damn homewrecker!
(jk)
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Shit I'm 128/93 my lowest reading yet!
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Shit I'm 128/93 my lowest reading yet!
93 is high. mine is usually around 135/70
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Yeah I know, it's been going on for 5 years all of a sudden when it started.
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and are you seeing a doctor regularly?
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No. Is it really that bad? I also used to have high liver enzymes but got that under control. I had a Kidney scare this winter after a blood test showed creatinine clearance was not good...I didnt follow up on it though.
Think I should go to the doctor and ask about blood pressure medication?
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mines 145 over 70 wtf
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Guys, don't freak out just yet. Go to a family doc or internist. Have them do a complete blood count. If there is something amiss, they will work it up. There could be numerous causes of elevated BP's and Dzullboy since you are so large, you have to be aware that you need to use a big cuff. Normal cuffs won't work on a guy with 19-20 inch arms, thus you will get a falsely elevated BP. To the other reader, if you Creatinine is high, you need to follow up ASAP. It may be something very treatable. Don't procrastinate and delay. I am not only a physician; I have been a patient also. I had cancer in my twenties (over ten years ago and all is now fine), but I too was in denial. Finally got everything checked out and then treated. I am fine now. Remember, docs are there to correct the problem to the best of their ability. They trained for many years for that ability so you might as well take advantage of them. Peace.
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To the other reader, if you Creatinine is high, you need to follow up ASAP. It may be something very treatable. Don't procrastinate and delay.
this is a bodybuilding board. bodybuilders tend to take massive amounts of creatine. everyone's creatinine levels will show up as high
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If you are taking creatine supplements, it is the fuel for muscle cells and you will have a slightly high creatinine. However, it should ot be severely compromised. I would consider Ronnie Coleman to have an abnormal Creatinine if his level were greater than 1.4 to 1.5 mg/dl. The bodies filtration system is very effective, but if you gobs of muscle it can be higher. The truest measure of glomerular filtration rate is a inulin test or possibly a iothalamate study. However, these are very expensive and not used much except in clinical trials. What would be more concerning is if you are spilling abnormal amounts of protein in your urine. Thus, to be safe, I would get checked out with lab work and a urinalysis. If you are a big guy (> 220 pounds), you may have a normally elevated creatinine of 1.2-1.3 or so. However, if your creatinine is closer to 2.0 mg/dl you have compromised renal function plain and simple. I understand that this is bodybuilding site Tim, however, to assume your creatinine is high simply because you are using a supplement is fallacious and foolish. You may be missing a treatable disease and to blow it off is unwise. I bet you if TP or other bodybuilders with renal failure would have been more fastiduous, they may have saved themselves a world of hurt.
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Here is a very understandable article about the dangers of Cr and possible masking of renal failure. It is a good read, and may make users of the substance a little more weary. If you are using creatine monohydrate, I recommend drinking a lot water. ;D
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/WrestlingandCreatine.htm
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I'll have to find out the actual numbers, but I know of many guys who have their doctors be all concerned about sky high creatinine levels, and had to explain to them that they were taking creatine, and why. btw, the average guy at the gym is much more likely to be taking 5-20 g of creatine a day than a pro bodybuilder.
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Here is a very understandable article about the dangers of Cr and possible masking of renal failure. It is a good read, and may make users of the substance a little more weary. If you are using creatine monohydrate, I recommend drinking a lot water. ;D
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/WrestlingandCreatine.htm
Do you think that drinking close to or above a gallon of water a day over a long periods of time can have negative effects on the kidneys? (If you work out and eat a BB diet)
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The problem with drinking so much water is that you can actually get something called psychogenic polydipsia. That is usally associated with drinking 10-12 liters of water daily, so I think if you drink 3-4 liters it would not be too dangerous. I think drinking around 2500 cc of water daily (little more than a 1/2 gallon) should protect your kidneys. I hear what you are saying Tim, but it would be really easy to check the guys GFR. You could do a 24 hour urine for creatinine clearance and get an idea of his renal function. If it is severely compromised (less than 60 cc/min), I would check a renal ultrasound and quantify the degree of proteinuria (to see if it is abnormal...< 150mg protein daily is usual). If they are normal and he has no medical issue, I would have him stop the creatinine supplement and re-check in 6 weeks. If his creatinine has not normalized or come down, something is likely amiss. Regardless, after researching creatinine monohydrate in my fellowship, I am very wary of it.
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Nordic, funny you should ask this is as I am a renal specialist. This is my job for a living; I also take care of dialysis patients on a daily basis. Mr. Fogarty is correct for the most part. If you want to get technical, normal BP by JNC VII (national conference on BP management and guidelines....link below) basically states that normal BP is 140/90 or better. However, to be techical, A BP of 120-139/80-89 is considered pre-hypertensive. In fact, in patients over 50 years of age, SBP (the higher number) is actually more dangerous as it conveys increased risk for stroke or MI (heart attack).
To answer your question, the reason that Advil and its variants such as Naproxen, Fenoprofren, etc are so bad if abused daily is that they have two effects on the kidney. First, they cause a depletion of vasodilator prostaglandins which are important to maintain perfusion in the kidneys. Thus, if you abuse these at length, they can cause a hemodynamic shift with a relative hypoperfusion of the kidneys (i.e. blood doesn't get to the kidneys). Long term this is bad. They also raise BP as they increase Na uptake in the kidney and once again deplete prostaglandins, which are vasodilators. Moreover, sometimes, daily abuse can actually cause an inflammatory reaction in the kidneys called Acute Interstitial Nephritis. This is often manifested by large amounts of protein being dumped out of your body thru the urine (bad...called nephrotic syndrome if you want to look it up). It can also lead to acute renal failure....usually reversible if the NSAIDs are stopped. Chronically, NSAIDs like Advil cause scarring of the kidney and decrease renal function. Thus, you get a syndrome called Chronic Interstitial Nephritis and it is ballgame for the beans. Typically, these people have irreversible kidney damage and often progress to renal failure requiring dialysis. I suspect Mr. Prince had acute renal failure from a hemodynamic mediated effect as he was probably also taking diuretics (bad combo). Well, hope that helps. I tried to make it as non-technical as i could, but it is a very complicated process. Peace.
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/hypertension/
"basically states that normal BP is 140/90 or better. However, to be techical, A BP of 120-139/80-89 is considered pre-hypertensive"
how can that be considered pre-hypertensive?? 120/80 ??? I dont get it...anything lower than that is low bp...
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how can that be considered pre-hypertensive?? 120/80 ??? I dont get it...anything lower than that is low bp...
cutting and pasting again:
Millions of people whose blood pressure was previously considered borderline high (130–139/85–89 mm Hg) or normal (120/80) now fall into the "prehypertension" range, based on new, more aggressive high blood pressure guidelines from the Seventh Report of the Joint National Committee on Prevention, Detection, Evaluation, and Treatment of High Blood Pressure (NIH Publication No. 03–5233, 2003)
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Ummmm......what does it mean if you start pissing blood? Just curious. Thanx.
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a web search shows people have been worried that Ibuprofen may cause kidney damage since 1997, yet the nih.gov site doesn't list kidney damage as a possible side effect.
any drug can be abused. I'm sure weeks and months of heavy use could cause problems. If you're concerned about Advil, don't use it or only use it occasionally. If you're using an analgesic many times a day for weeks at a time, you need to fix the underlying problem.
The difference, of course, mister "expert", is that Ibuprofen is only used when you have an inflamation/headache, which only happens seldomly. And that you use it for a few days and then quit. AASS, conversely, are taken by pros continuously, for years on end, thus cummulatively causing far more damage to the internal organs than ibupofren. Higher toxicity/few days<lower toxicity/years= worse on end. Case closed.
SUCKMYMUSCLE
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Ummmm......what does it mean if you start pissing blood? Just curious. Thanx.
I've heard of guys pissing blood after a heavy workout. I would definitely get it checked if it doesn't stop.
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Sucky, you are correct for the most part. However, there are individuals with chronic pain (i.e. reportedly Tom Prince) who took Ibuprofren at huge doses daily for months, if not years. Some patients I have have taken Alleve (Naproxen) at 500 - 1000 mg twice daily for years (usually woman with chronic pain). However, I read an article on TP that stated he was in such constant pain that he abused Ibuprofren daily (max daily dose is 800mg three times daily and I wonder if he was taking the max dose or beyond) for months. Along with all the other drugs he was taking, I am sure the Advil definitely contributed to his kidney failure. Advil is much more toxic to your kidneys than anabolics.
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Ummmm......what does it mean if you start pissing blood? Just curious. Thanx.
It means u're fucked, and that is my professional medical opinion.
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Ehhhrrr guys, I didn't catch that post about "pissing blood." I concur with Ether and he is a surgeon. It usually is not a good thing to have gross hematuria. It could mean something is really bad with the pipes (urethram bladder, ureters), the kidneys (renal cell cancer, IGA nephropathy, thin basement membrane (benign), Alport's disease, etc) or even the prostrate. I would recommend getting your arse to a doc ASAP.
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Ehhhrrr guys, I didn't catch that post about "pissing blood." I concur with Ether and he is a surgeon. It usually is not a good thing to have gross hematuria. It could mean something is really bad with the pipes (urethram bladder, ureters), the kidneys (renal cell cancer, IGA nephropathy, thin basement membrane (benign), Alport's disease, etc) or even the prostrate. I would recommend getting your arse to a doc ASAP.
Yep....either that or wait it out...i'm sure it will go away on its' own ::)