Author Topic: Question for Tim Fogarty about Renal Failure (Read 6393 times)

Nordic Beast · « **on:** June 21, 2006, 01:18:18 PM »

Having read many of your posts you seem very knowledgeable about human body and the effects that certain "supplements" and medications have on it.

In your expert opinion what is really causing a lot of the renal failure that has been so prevalent lately. Is it a genetically predisposed condition aggravated by the use of huge amounts of Advil...or other "supplements" such as hormones, insulin, Gh or Diuretics...or is it just genetic and bound to happen eventually anyway?

Or is the renal failure primarily caused by the large amounts of "supplements" taken and if so which ones?

I know diabetics are at a risk for renal failure but is that because of obesity, or their insulin problems.

I'm very ignorant on the subject and would be quite interested to here your response on the issue.

Thank you-------------

240 is Back · « **Reply #1 on:** June 21, 2006, 01:19:47 PM »

KidneyMemory is your friend.

Van_Bilderass · « **Reply #2 on:** June 21, 2006, 01:28:27 PM »

High blood pressure from juice (and stimulants like coke and speed that many guys use) over the long term is big factor IMO.

Hormones could have negative effects on the kidneys also, other than through BP.

Nordic Beast · « **Reply #3 on:** June 21, 2006, 01:33:00 PM »

Quote from: Van_Bilderass on June 21, 2006, 01:28:27 PM

High blood pressure from juice (and stimulants like coke and speed that many guys use) over the long term is big factor IMO.

Hormones could have negative effects on the kidneys also, other than through BP.

yes hypertension is a factor for renal failure so that makes sense

I wonder if any paticular drug did it or wether it was a culmination of many

Remember Alzono Mourning had renal failure and he wasn't a jucie head like the IFBB pros------he probably did some---but the NBA does drug test

timfogarty · « **Reply #4 on:** June 21, 2006, 02:01:21 PM »

high blood pressure over many years. many things bodybuilders do can cause high BP, including anabolic steroids, stimulants, and diet. but the key is 'over many years'. a month or two of elevated BP followed by many months of normal BP should not cause any long term damage. but all bodybuilders (really everyone) should monitor their BP regularly.

cutting and pasting from another site:

Your blood pressure measurement consists of two numbers: systolic and diastolic.

* The systolic measurement is the pressure of blood against your artery walls when the heart has just finished pumping (contracting). It is the first or top number of a blood pressure reading.

* The diastolic measurement is the pressure of blood against your artery walls between heartbeats, when the heart is relaxed and filling with blood. It is the second or bottom number in a blood pressure reading.

120 over 80 is considered the top of the normal range. but it's the lower of the two numbers that is more important. athletes in good shape will often have a diastolic (lower number) value in the 60s.

a BP of 120 over 90 would be of more concern than one of 140 over 65.

Nordic Beast · « **Reply #5 on:** June 21, 2006, 02:04:58 PM »

Quote from: timfogarty on June 21, 2006, 02:01:21 PM

high blood pressure over many years. many things bodybuilders do can cause high BP, including anabolic steroids, stimulants, and diet. but the key is 'over many years'. a month or two of elevated BP followed by many months of normal BP should not cause any long term damage.

hmmm thank u------is the advil arguement hold up any weight or is that just a lame excuse?

Nordic Beast · « **Reply #6 on:** June 21, 2006, 02:06:51 PM »

what im asking is does advil really have a extremely detremental effect on kidney damage?

timfogarty · « **Reply #7 on:** June 21, 2006, 02:40:57 PM »

Quote from: Nordic Beast on June 21, 2006, 02:06:51 PM

what im asking is does advil really have a extremely detremental effect on kidney damage?

a web search shows people have been worried that Ibuprofen may cause kidney damage since 1997, yet the nih.gov site doesn't list kidney damage as a possible side effect.

any drug can be abused. I'm sure weeks and months of heavy use could cause problems. If you're concerned about Advil, don't use it or only use it occasionally. If you're using an analgesic many times a day for weeks at a time, you need to fix the underlying problem.

G o a t b o y · « **Reply #8 on:** June 21, 2006, 02:41:44 PM »

Quote from: Nordic Beast on June 21, 2006, 02:04:58 PM

------is the advil arguement hold up any weight or is that just a lame excuse?

Ummmmm..... why do you think we all make fun of it?

Nordic Beast · « **Reply #9 on:** June 21, 2006, 02:46:34 PM »

Quote from: G o a t b o y on June 21, 2006, 02:41:44 PM

Ummmmm..... why do you think we all make fun of it?

IM not retarded but I was wondering if Advil is a lot harsher than say tylenol on the kidneys if taken regularly and if it can dramatically increase the chances for renal failure if someone has an elevated Blood pressure over a long period of time caused by "supplements"---------------------------

nicorulez · « **Reply #10 on:** June 21, 2006, 02:49:26 PM »

Nordic, funny you should ask this is as I am a renal specialist. This is my job for a living; I also take care of dialysis patients on a daily basis. Mr. Fogarty is correct for the most part. If you want to get technical, normal BP by JNC VII (national conference on BP management and guidelines....link below) basically states that normal BP is 140/90 or better. However, to be techical, A BP of 120-139/80-89 is considered pre-hypertensive. In fact, in patients over 50 years of age, SBP (the higher number) is actually more dangerous as it conveys increased risk for stroke or MI (heart attack).

To answer your question, the reason that Advil and its variants such as Naproxen, Fenoprofren, etc are so bad if abused daily is that they have two effects on the kidney. First, they cause a depletion of vasodilator prostaglandins which are important to maintain perfusion in the kidneys. Thus, if you abuse these at length, they can cause a hemodynamic shift with a relative hypoperfusion of the kidneys (i.e. blood doesn't get to the kidneys). Long term this is bad. They also raise BP as they increase Na uptake in the kidney and once again deplete prostaglandins, which are vasodilators. Moreover, sometimes, daily abuse can actually cause an inflammatory reaction in the kidneys called Acute Interstitial Nephritis. This is often manifested by large amounts of protein being dumped out of your body thru the urine (bad...called nephrotic syndrome if you want to look it up). It can also lead to acute renal failure....usually reversible if the NSAIDs are stopped. Chronically, NSAIDs like Advil cause scarring of the kidney and decrease renal function. Thus, you get a syndrome called Chronic Interstitial Nephritis and it is ballgame for the beans. Typically, these people have irreversible kidney damage and often progress to renal failure requiring dialysis. I suspect Mr. Prince had acute renal failure from a hemodynamic mediated effect as he was probably also taking diuretics (bad combo). Well, hope that helps. I tried to make it as non-technical as i could, but it is a very complicated process. Peace.

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/hypertension/

nicorulez · « **Reply #11 on:** June 21, 2006, 02:51:31 PM »

P.S.....Tylenol is nowhere near as harsh as Advil. If you want a link, here it is. I can refer you to technical sites, but unless you are an M.D. it would not be useful. However, this blog is very informative.

http://clinicalcases.blogspot.com/2004/04/nsaids-induced-acute-renal-failure.html

Nordic Beast · « **Reply #12 on:** June 21, 2006, 02:52:58 PM »

Quote from: nicorulez on June 21, 2006, 02:49:26 PM

Nordic, funny you should ask this is as I am a renal specialist. This is my job for a living; I also take care of dialysis patients on a daily basis. Mr. Fogarty is correct for the most part. If you want to get technical, normal BP by JNC VII (national conference on BP management and guidelines....link below) basically states that normal BP is 140/90 or better. However, to be techical, A BP of 120-139/80-89 is considered pre-hypertensive. In fact, in patients over 50 years of age, SBP (the higher number) is actually more dangerous as it conveys increased risk for stroke or MI (heart attack).

To answer your question, the reason that Advil and its variants such as Naproxen, Fenoprofren, etc are so bad if abused daily is that they have two effects on the kidney. First, they cause a depletion of vasodilator prostaglandins which are important to maintain perfusion in the kidneys. Thus, if you abuse these at length, they can cause a hemodynamic shift with a relative hypoperfusion of the kidneys (i.e. blood doesn't get to the kidneys). Long term this is bad. They also raise BP as they increase Na uptake in the kidney and once again deplete prostaglandins, which are vasodilators. Moreover, sometimes, daily abuse can actually cause an inflammatory reaction in the kidneys called Acute Interstitial Nephritis. This is often manifested by large amounts of protein being dumped out of your body thru the urine (bad...called nephrotic syndrome if you want to look it up). It can also lead to acute renal failure....usually reversible if the NSAIDs are stopped. Chronically, NSAIDs like Advil cause scarring of the kidney and decrease renal function. Thus, you get a syndrome called Chronic Interstitial Nephritis and it is ballgame for the beans. Typically, these people have irreversible kidney damage and often progress to renal failure requiring dialysis. I suspect Mr. Prince had acute renal failure from a hemodynamic mediated effect as he was probably also taking diuretics (bad combo). Well, hope that helps. I tried to make it as non-technical as i could, but it is a very complicated process. Peace.

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/hypertension/

quite interesting----------thank you very much--it really helped clear up my ignorance on the matter

timfogarty · « **Reply #13 on:** June 21, 2006, 03:11:57 PM »

Quote from: nicorulez on June 21, 2006, 02:49:26 PM

Nordic, funny you should ask this is as I am a renal specialist.

yeah, but I was married to a doctor. put him through residency. then he dump me. but I'm not bitter.

nicorulez · « **Reply #14 on:** June 21, 2006, 03:49:08 PM »

Damn Tim, that sucks. Not all docs are such a-holes. You have a really good grasp of physiology. Are you by chance in the medical field by chance? BTW, I am confused and unfortunately don't know your history. You were married and "he" dumped you. I always thought you were a dude. If not, was it a typo

or do you live in California...just joshing. Anyway, always good to hear your posts as you are so very informed and taught me a lot about different aspects of bodybuilding. Cheers.

ether · « **Reply #15 on:** June 21, 2006, 03:55:43 PM »

Quote from: nicorulez on June 21, 2006, 02:49:26 PM

Nordic, funny you should ask this is as I am a renal specialist. This is my job for a living; I also take care of dialysis patients on a daily basis. Mr. Fogarty is correct for the most part. If you want to get technical, normal BP by JNC VII (national conference on BP management and guidelines....link below) basically states that normal BP is 140/90 or better. However, to be techical, A BP of 120-139/80-89 is considered pre-hypertensive. In fact, in patients over 50 years of age, SBP (the higher number) is actually more dangerous as it conveys increased risk for stroke or MI (heart attack).

To answer your question, the reason that Advil and its variants such as Naproxen, Fenoprofren, etc are so bad if abused daily is that they have two effects on the kidney. First, they cause a depletion of vasodilator prostaglandins which are important to maintain perfusion in the kidneys. Thus, if you abuse these at length, they can cause a hemodynamic shift with a relative hypoperfusion of the kidneys (i.e. blood doesn't get to the kidneys). Long term this is bad. They also raise BP as they increase Na uptake in the kidney and once again deplete prostaglandins, which are vasodilators. Moreover, sometimes, daily abuse can actually cause an inflammatory reaction in the kidneys called Acute Interstitial Nephritis. This is often manifested by large amounts of protein being dumped out of your body thru the urine (bad...called nephrotic syndrome if you want to look it up). It can also lead to acute renal failure....usually reversible if the NSAIDs are stopped. Chronically, NSAIDs like Advil cause scarring of the kidney and decrease renal function. Thus, you get a syndrome called Chronic Interstitial Nephritis and it is ballgame for the beans. Typically, these people have irreversible kidney damage and often progress to renal failure requiring dialysis. I suspect Mr. Prince had acute renal failure from a hemodynamic mediated effect as he was probably also taking diuretics (bad combo). Well, hope that helps. I tried to make it as non-technical as i could, but it is a very complicated process. Peace.

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/hypertension/

Well said, you may want to stop over at the TP thread and explain to some of the posters there why someone on hemodialysis would have a very hard time maintaining their physique.

timfogarty · « **Reply #16 on:** June 21, 2006, 06:08:32 PM »

can't tell the players without a program

Quote from: nicorulez on June 21, 2006, 03:49:08 PM

You were married and "he" dumped you. I always thought you were a dude. If not, was it a typo or do you live in California...just joshing.

yes, I'm a dude (well, I'm male) and yes I live in california, but while we now have domestic partnerships in california that is 99% what Massachusetts has with same sex marriage, back when Nick and I were together they didn't have that. nor am I sure we would have made that kind of a commitment at that time.

btw, while Massachusetts same sex marriage was decided by judges (so what? so was Loving v Virginia, so was Brown v Board of Education), the California legislature has passed same sex marriage, but Arnold vetoed it. But the governator is up for reelection, and the Democratic candidate Angelides has said he'll sign it. And I have a gut feeling that once he has no more elections ahead of him, Arnold might just sign it too.

nicorulez · « **Reply #17 on:** June 21, 2006, 06:15:03 PM »

Tim, I could care less of your sexual predispostion. One of my closest friends is gay, and he could be the biggest player ever as he is just plain cool. Politically, I am conservative, but I think the government should keep their noses out of peoples personal affairs. Regardless, I always enjoy your posts and am most impressed with your fund of knowledge. Have a great day. Peace.

240 is Back · « **Reply #18 on:** June 21, 2006, 06:17:48 PM »

Quote from: timfogarty on June 21, 2006, 06:08:32 PM

when Nick and I were together they didn't have that.

Wait, that was YOU that was dating Nick on the side?

I am so angry I can barely type. you damn homewrecker!

(jk)

youandme · « **Reply #19 on:** June 21, 2006, 06:41:18 PM »

Shit I'm 128/93 my lowest reading yet!

timfogarty · « **Reply #20 on:** June 21, 2006, 07:00:40 PM »

Quote from: youandme on June 21, 2006, 06:41:18 PM

Shit I'm 128/93 my lowest reading yet!

93 is high. mine is usually around 135/70

youandme · « **Reply #21 on:** June 21, 2006, 07:23:08 PM »

Yeah I know, it's been going on for 5 years all of a sudden when it started.

timfogarty · « **Reply #22 on:** June 21, 2006, 08:01:08 PM »

and are you seeing a doctor regularly?

youandme · « **Reply #23 on:** June 21, 2006, 08:25:00 PM »

No. Is it really that bad? I also used to have high liver enzymes but got that under control. I had a Kidney scare this winter after a blood test showed creatinine clearance was not good...I didnt follow up on it though.
Think I should go to the doctor and ask about blood pressure medication?

dzulboy · « **Reply #24 on:** June 21, 2006, 08:27:04 PM »

mines 145 over 70 wtf