Author Topic: Dilaudid Versus Nubain  (Read 1077 times)

Lartinos

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Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« on: November 27, 2021, 08:33:12 PM »
I was never into Opioids myself.
Just never got that magic feeling.

What Leo and them described is just foreign to me.

I tried an OxyContin 15 years ago maybe and I turned white as ghost and felt sick.

At that moment I realized that must be what heroin is like.




Hypertrophy

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2021, 08:55:01 PM »
Dilaudid is sickly powerful. Was given it for a bad bout of kidney stones that ultimately required surgery.


You can feel it travel from the injection site as a warm wave until you are feeling as if you are floating- and it lasts a few hours. I can see how it would become addictive. If the doses are spaced too closely though you stop breathing- so that would be a problem, lol. They alternated it with morphine and oxycontin while I was awaiting surgery. I could have jumped off the top of the hospital building and crashed onto the pavement- and I would have felt nothing.


The only other drug that was close to Dilaudid I have been given was Demerol- because I had appendicitis years ago. Man that stuff is ungodly amazing, and apparently super addictive, as well as easy to overdose on.

TheFranchise

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2021, 01:26:46 AM »
My schooling is in this area and I’ve never came across Nubian. Only ever heard of Nubian in Llewellyn’s Anabolics book and back when Phil Hernon and others would mention it on ProMuscle. I’ll have to ask Beau if he’s ever used it.

I’ve seen dilaudid used in the ER during rotations  when serious car accidents came and and it was when morphine just couldn’t cut it. They make an oral form of it but I’ve never seen it prescribed. I remembered hearing about Demerol but I believe it has fallen out of favor with other analgesics.

Has anyone here ever been prescribed Talwin or ever try it?

Humble Narcissist

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2021, 02:38:11 AM »
Knowing how addictive these drugs are, why does anyone start using them recreationally?

TheFranchise

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2021, 03:12:06 AM »
Knowing how addictive these drugs are, why does anyone start using them recreationally?

Opioids are no different that other addictive substances today. Each have their respective use, and when this is not included in ones thinking, then you can get “addicts”.

 Hell just look at tobacco/nicotine, caffeine, and ethanol today. More functional addicts involved in those 3 substances than anywhere else. It’s also easy to tax $$$$$$$$$$$$ these drug.

Humble Narcissist

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2021, 04:24:40 AM »
Opioids are no different that other addictive substances today. Each have their respective use, and when this is not included in ones thinking, then you can get “addicts”.

 Hell just look at tobacco/nicotine, caffeine, and ethanol today. More functional addicts involved in those 3 substances than anywhere else. It’s also easy to tax $$$$$$$$$$$$ these drug.
Being addicted to caffeine is way different than being addicted to opioids. I've never heard of anyone dying or being homeless because they drank too much coffee.

IroNat

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2021, 05:13:28 AM »
Aspirin is like heroin.

Note both end with "in".

ProudVirgin69

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2021, 06:08:04 AM »
My schooling is in this area and I’ve never came across Nubian. Only ever heard of Nubian in Llewellyn’s Anabolics book and back when Phil Hernon and others would mention it on ProMuscle. I’ll have to ask Beau if he’s ever used it.

I’ve seen dilaudid used in the ER during rotations  when serious car accidents came and and it was when morphine just couldn’t cut it. They make an oral form of it but I’ve never seen it prescribed. I remembered hearing about Demerol but I believe it has fallen out of favor with other analgesics.

Has anyone here ever been prescribed Talwin or ever try it?

*nubain

Demerol/methperidine/pethidine stimulates catecholamine release, which leads to severe reactions w MAOIs, chiefly.  It was responsible for the death of Libby Zion, the case of which led to the regulation of medical residency work hours.  Because of this interaction, it’s used almost exclusively to treat shivering post-anesthesia & post-cardiac arrest TTM protocols, as a one-time dose.  No idea why it treats shivering, but it works.

Different attendings have different preferences for analgesics and tend to stick to them throughout their career, that’s the biggest factor in what you’ll see prescribed.  They all work and MME conversion tables allow for easy titration.

wes

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2021, 06:09:19 AM »
Only a fool would begin using these drugs to get high.

Taffin

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2021, 07:42:49 AM »
Anyone remember the Alcohol + Opiates + Benzodiazepines thread from a couple of years back?  About 20 pages back and forth about this stuff...

Very interesting  (and short) explanation of the various opiate strengths...  8)


T

Hypertrophy

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2021, 08:05:42 AM »
Opioids are no different that other addictive substances today. Each have their respective use, and when this is not included in ones thinking, then you can get “addicts”.

 Hell just look at tobacco/nicotine, caffeine, and ethanol today. More functional addicts involved in those 3 substances than anywhere else. It’s also easy to tax $$$$$$$$$$$$ these drug.


Not even close. You are so far off the mark- ONE shot of Dilaudid and I started craving it when I came down. ONE shot. Caffeine- i can take it or leave it. Alcohol - same. I am not a user of any recs, can't stand the feeling of being drunk. Caffeine gives me headaches. But opiates got their hooks in me the very first time. No surprise that the oxy epidemic occurred.

ProudVirgin69

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2021, 09:07:01 AM »
The opiate epidemic in America is a symptom of declining quality of life.  Doctors are just an easy scapegoat.  Opiate rx's are 1/2 of what they were 10 years ago and overdoses have been constantly increasing.

Americans everywhere are struggling and turn to drugs to ease their despair.

residue

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2021, 09:11:29 AM »
Knowing how addictive these drugs are, why does anyone start using them recreationally?
every addict i know started using it because it was prescribed to them, anecdotal i know but im sure that's a lot of people

Van_Bilderass

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2021, 09:39:11 AM »
I haven't ever injected a narcotic but my understanding is that Nubain is comparatively very weak, can't even OD on it.
Before bodybuilders started using it addiction to Nubain was basically never seen
.

BB

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2021, 09:53:14 AM »
Singerman said it (Nubain) was one of the weakest drugs he used.

--------------------------

Just because it was handy, here's one of the last articles Duchaine wrote on it for the old QFAC site -

Help For The Junior Junkies - by Dan Duchaine

Nubain is the Dupont trade name for nalbuphine hydrochloride, a clear injectable liquid with analgesic effects equivalent to morphine on a milligram by milligram basis. Although it is a prescription drug in the US, it is not specially scheduled by the FDA. For this reason, Nubain is generally available and reasonably priced on the sports black market.

I think that it’s safe to say that Nubain use (or abuse) seems to be a problem only in the bodybuilding and powerlifting subculture. I can say with authority that a substantial number of the top-placing competitors in any national or international bodybuilding contest are using Nubain. In some years, eight out of the top ten competitors in the Mr. Olympia contest use this drug.

Although Nubain users don’t fit the typical drug user profile, Nubain use is definitely a problem within the “fitness” subculture. Although the health problems caused by Nubain are not immediately apparent, Nubain users do suffer from withdrawal symptoms if they stop taking their drug of choice. Nubain withdrawal resembles a bad case of the flu. Symptoms include fever, tiredness, body ache, diarrhea, sneezing, and anxiety. Some ex-users experience even more severe symptoms, which we’ll discuss shortly.

Why did bodybuilders and powerlifters, supposedly the epitome of health and strength, start taking Nubain in the first place? The answer goes back almost two decades. In 1984, many major steroid dealers had been arrested, and most of the black market was being serviced out of Santa Clara, California by a man named Steven Coons, who was also the front man for the so-called “designer steroids” made by Jeff Feliciano. Coons touted the sedative, pain-killing, appetite-suppressing, diuretic, and euphoric properties of Nubain. He said that Nubain would help bodybuilders to endure the pain of extreme workouts, and he put a bottle of Nubain into many of the steroid orders that he was shipping nationwide. Like many Nubain users, I was a very “clean and sober” person when I first tried it in 1985. I didn’t smoke, consume alcohol, or take recreational drugs. Nubain was supposed to be totally harmless, and even beneficial.

Nubain can be injected in three ways: intramuscularly, subcutaneously, and intravenously. Because the intravenous route does not cause a stinging sensation, most Nubain users eventually switch to IV injections. Bodybuilders and powerlifters who are used to injecting steroids, unlike the general population, are accustomed to needles and injections, so IV Nubain use is not that big of a jump. Perhaps the stigma of IV drug use is the reason that Nubain addiction has stayed in this subculture and not spread to the general population---unlike GHB, which began as a bodybuilding and longevity drug, and was later adopted by reckless teenagers.

The wholesale price for 10 cc of generic, 20 mg/ml nalbuphine, made by Astra or Abbot, is about $15. The retail price of Nubain, over the counter in Tijuana, is about $35. In Mexico, all nalbuphines are prescription drugs, and Mexican-made Nubain is only available in a 10 mg/ml dose. However, most Tijuana pharmacies buy 20 mg/ml of Astra nalbuphine from San Diego wholesalers and smuggle it in to Mexico.

Although Nubain is not specially scheduled by the FDA, the dosing patterns of Nubain users indicate that it is a powerfully addictive drug. Users typically inject between 10 mg to 20 mg every two to four hours. A Nubain habit can be very expensive. Some users go through a whole 10 cc bottle every day---about $250 a week! And that’s in Southern California, where Nubain is relatively cheap. In some areas of the country, such as New Jersey, the retail black market price is close to $100 a bottle.

Intravenous drug users tend to favor certain injection sites. After months of consistent injections, the skin in this area becomes scarred, leaving “track marks” like those of heroin addicts. Some Nubain users routinely have a cosmetic surgeon cut out the track marks, because the scars from cosmetic surgery are less noticeable than the scars from the drug injections. A few bodybuilders use Stadol or Torbugesic instead of Nubain. Both Stadol (butorphanol tartrate) and Torbugesic (the veterinary version of Stadol) are about ten times stronger than Nubain. Two mg/cc of Stadol has the same effect of 20 mg/cc of Nubain! Although they are not scheduled by the FDA, these two drugs are more difficult to find on the black market than Nubain.

Researchers have shown that Stadol has greater effects on women than men. When I read about this effect, I postulated that women would have greater withdrawal symptoms coming off Nubain. I have found this to be true. Women definitely have more severe withdrawal symptoms than men. Of course, there are always “junior junkies” who grovel, beg, and drive hundreds of miles to avoid a Nubain withdrawal. Personally, I think that they are acting like big babies. I’m afraid that I may have had a part in encouraging these “junior junkies” to use Nubain. Because I’ve never had problems with withdrawal symptoms---or because I was too proud to show any weakness to my friends and relatives---I didn’t present the worst problems caused by Nubain addiction. To repair any damage I may have caused by my cavalier way of dispensing information about Nubain, I’m going to tell you how to get off Nubain (or Stadol) with absolutely no withdrawal symptoms.

First, a little science. Narcotic drugs attach to one or more of the three opiate receptors (delta, kappa, and mu). The most potent of these analgesics hit all three receptors, while Nubain primarily binds at the kappa receptor, and has a mixed agonist/antagonist action at the delta receptor.

The first step is to break the habit of intravenous injection. Many habitual Nubain users find it pleasurable to inject the drug. It’s a comfortable ritual that Nubain users miss in the same way that ex-smokers miss the whole ceremony of lighting up and inhaling a cigarette. What we need to take the place of Nubain is a non-scheduled oral analgesic.

Our prime candidate is tramadol hydrochloride, known in America as Ultram, which comes in a 50 mg tablet. It is also available in 50 mg capsules in Mexico as TRADOL, and costs about $20 for ten capsules. NOBLIGAN, another version of tramadol, is a real buy at $10 for ten capsules if you can find it. It was when Oliver Star and I previously discussed withdrawal protocols, when he mentioned that he had found an oral sedative to replace Nubain, the Ultram.

To start the process of withdrawal without symptoms, immediately stop using all Nubain, and start taking 50 mg of tramadol, three times a day. Tramadol only binds at the delta receptor, so it makes Nubain withdrawal much easier. You won’t feel any euphoria, but you also won’t feel the flu-like symptoms of an unassisted withdrawal. For the first week, take three 50 mg doses of tramadol a day. For the second week, take two per day, and take only one per day during the last week. After three weeks, you will feel relatively normal. The only side effects that may linger are sneezing or coughing, and perhaps a slight feeling of tiredness.

Tramadol is not strong enough for some female Nubain users. They need a stronger oral analgesic before they progress to tramadol. The best choice is TEMGESIC (buprenophine hydrochloride) sublingual tablets from Mexico. (Although there is an injectable version in the US called BUPRENEX, you want to avoid injectable compounds.) Temgesic is Schedule V in the US and prescription-only in Mexico. Unfortunately, it’s not cheap---about $25 for ten tablets in Tijuana pharmacies.

After complete Nubain cessation, women should use only one Temgesic sublingual (each tab contains .2 mg). Temgesic binds at the delta receptor for a very long time, which makes it effective for up to up to 24 hours. Use the Temgesic once daily for a week, and then switch to the tramadol protocol.

Is Nubain addiction a big problem? Well, compared to cocaine, marijuana, tobacco, and alcohol---in a word, no. More people are addicted to and die from the effects of these drugs than have even heard of Nubain. However, for the small corps of overly dependent Nubain users, I hope that this protocol will help to break the habit without unnecessary suffering.

Do we have a subculture Nubain problem, and should we do something about it? I believe that the problem is relatively minor. Nubain, from a medical standpoint, is pretty much inoffensive, other than the stigma of injectable drug use. Unfortunately, illustrating the problem in the media will probably rise too much interest, and we would end up with more people experimenting with Nubain, spreading it out of the subculture. There is a small core of Nubain users who are overly dependent on this drug, and we could debate the morality of such recreational drug use. It certainly is safer than marijuana, cocaine, tobacco and alcohol. Now that I have developed this Nubain withdrawal protocol, I’m hoping that all those who want to break the Nubain habit, can now do so with no suffering.



Lartinos

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2021, 09:41:42 PM »
Duchaine really does sound like a junky the way he describes it.

He was an articulate and knowledgeable guy, but then he’d sprinkle in absurdities and sound contradictory too.


illuminati

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2021, 10:08:29 PM »
Only a fool would begin using these drugs to get high.

True - Only there are many willing Fools around.

Humble Narcissist

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2021, 03:27:41 AM »
every addict i know started using it because it was prescribed to them, anecdotal i know but im sure that's a lot of people
That has not been my experience. I know people who claim this is the reason even though I know they used them recreationally before becoming addicted.

If you ever feel dependent on prescribed drugs tell the doctor and they will wean you off of them.

robcguns

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Re: Dilaudid Versus Nubain
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2021, 06:47:37 AM »
I don’t get the big thrill. I also tried an oc20 about 20 years ago and felt horrible and threw up a few times, since that day never touch another painkiller.