Author Topic: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.  (Read 66333 times)

Vince B

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #150 on: October 18, 2006, 06:49:22 AM »
Oliva escaped from communist Cuba. When he arrived in Chicago he soon learned that blacks had to be better than whites to win. That was demonstrated when Bob Gajda beat Sergio in the Mr America. That was unfair but the AAU refused to let a black win that contest because Mr America represented the ideal America who can't be black. No black won until Chris Dickerson in 1970 or thereabouts.

If you knew Sergio you would know that no one buys him. He says what he thinks. Period. He covered up for his wife when she shot him and that was one of the few lies he told. Why should he lie about training? That is not what he stands for.

The point here about Sergio goes against what I believe as far as optimal training methods go but not totally. It does make a difference how you train and on what equipment. Sometimes you cannot achieve more results unless you use effective equipment. That is Sergio's message to us in 2006. Not that it is going to do me any good. The young fellows here with dreams of winning contests might benefit. If your brains are already filled with theories and ideas you won't benefit from any additional information so this thread is almost a waste of time.

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #151 on: October 18, 2006, 07:02:08 AM »
I read that interview and it says what Luke and I have been saying. Oliva credits Nautilus and Jones with making the difference. It was how he used those machines. He insisted on combining free weights with the machines and that is partly why squats were included.

It is refreshing to read that interview because just about everything he said is true or has happened. His account of the corrupt IFBB and so on is a lesson for everyone. I respect Sergio. He tells it like it is because he fears no one. Lee Priest has taken the baton from Sergio but the sheep won't follow.


AND I think that it also validates the way Scott trained (under Vince Gironda... really theyr are Gironda's methods, not Scott's): that is to use very short rest periods. BTW I wrote an article about Gironda's methods a while ago. You can read it here:

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=06-092-training

TheAnimal

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #152 on: October 18, 2006, 07:07:54 AM »
Nice thread Vince everything you have said has a lot of validity to it in my opinion however I have a question regarding training as you have been around the iron game for a long time now surely you must see the people who make the best progress whom are odviously natural and decipher which methods of training are the most efficient for muscle growth. Even so being a gym owner you must witness many people who train with good or little to no results and link their training accordingly.

I don't think I could do a HIT/HST approach as training so little would leave me unsatisfied as I enjoy the individual training challenges regularly whilst also getting the short-term benefits of training also. You seem to be saying that you see many people in the gym who seem to make little progress but where are the ones WITH the progress? Is this progress you imagine possible? Do you see guys training making good progress at all because from what I have read in your posts you seem to not have seen people make good bodybuilding results without drugs.

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #153 on: October 18, 2006, 07:42:08 AM »
Hi to Christian Thibaudeau. A bit of supplement promotion in that Gironda article.  Larry Scott gave a seminar at my gym in 1979. I recorded it and have it on tape somewhere. It should be put into written form and circulated. At the vary least given back to Larry for his site. Larry joked that some of Vince's ideas were extreme and were occasionally used to get attention.

About the guys who are growing in my gym. The natural guys stay the same it appears. That is sad to see. They won't listen to me because they don't believe me. Well there you are.

Some of the casual trainees make gains but only in the upper body. They hate doing legs. I guess when their arms get bigger they love training arms and specialize on them and look very impressive. Very few guys ever train hard enough to cause any growth.

You see, my method requires growth from each and every workout. Your arms and calves can be measured bigger. If you are not growing you have to try something different and maybe train again the very next day. There is no other way. If something doesn't work immediately you have to do something different.

A case in point which I have mentioned before is triceps training. You are unlikely to get big triceps if you continue to do only pressdowns. It won't happen. What happens is that as you use heavier weights you recruit other muscles to assist that movement and you are no longer working triceps that hard. If they are not really sore the next day you didn't train them right. So get back in the gym again and make them sore. Forget about training any other body part. Find out how to make specific muscles grow rapidly. You don't need drugs and I doubt if you need supplements.

BEAST 8692

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #154 on: October 18, 2006, 07:55:20 AM »
i'm sorry, and this is no disrespect to vince, but look at the guy. ::)

if he actually did know what builds a body don't you think he would have one? i mean he runs a gym for crissakes! it's not like he doesn't have access to the tools. how many guys have you trained to mr olympia calibre vince? i didn't think so. :'(

he doesn't know shit. he is simply an attention whore. if he did have the 'secret' do you think he would be discussing it (or in this case not even going that far) on a message board ???

IF one could actually grow 'workout to workout' like he says, you would have bodybuilders walking around as big as sky scrapers. think about it people!

what he means by doms training ie delayed onset muscle soreness, is that he THINKS, like a lot of people, that doms indicates muscle growth. however, the simple fact is that it doesn't.

one could get doms doing 100 rep sets of push ups but are you going to get big doing that? waddy please don't bother answering. if so then marines would be looking like bodybuilders. they don't... unless they train bodybuilding.

i believe jones was on the right track with his theories. brief and brutal because if you are seriously training brutal how the hell do you training long.

compare the sprinter to the marathon runner. whose body would you rather have?



ok...umm so, are we any closer to learning the real 'secret' from the guru basile? i suppose at least he has got 7 odd pages of attention now though ::) so you've achieved something hey vince?

what i don't like about you is that you dribble on and on about, basically nothing. you give nothing in the end. it's like you just want to read your written text and see how many replies you get or something. great achievement! wow...

wtf is the point of bashing everyone that HAS actually succeeded in developing large muscle mass if you have ZERO evidence of a successful alternative ???

i'll let you in on a little secret vince. i know this might be hard for your brilliant intellect to cope with, but ALL you have (only in your pea brain mind you) is a THEORY, just like everyone you've mocked. in fact, the only difference is that you have absolutely no evidence to back up that theory.

i'm sorry old man but that makes you pathetic.

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #155 on: October 18, 2006, 07:55:53 AM »
Hi to Christian Thibaudeau. A bit of supplement promotion in that Gironda article

 :P Well, I do believe in those products, and they are in line with Vince's recommendations.


Vince B

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #156 on: October 18, 2006, 08:18:43 AM »
Believing in products is hardly science. I am afraid I am not impressed with the supplement industry. They still exaggerate and that disappoints me. Bodybuilders are gullible because they are not growing so there is a ready market. The general public is also ignorant so buy way too many unnecessary things.

I see I am wasting my time with people like Beast. Where are the champions explaining in great detail how to get really big? You have to pay for that information but it is mostly non-existent. I am trying to involve others and see if together we can be led to the correct hypertrophy theory.

HIT argues that it is the right method. If followers do not make gains do they abandon the method? Nope. They simply come up with excuses or explanations to account for the lack of results. It is plain to me HIT theory is false. Period. There are some half truths that might be useful. The whole system is rubbish. Ditto for HST. Those methods are not going to work for massive gains. The people behind these methods know this, too. That is the sad thing. I have more intellectual honesty than that. I design and build machines. If they aren't used then what good are they? I have to have something right to get them so that bodybuilders will use them. It is not guesswork but applied technology.

I probably cannot specify the complete field theory of hypertrophy that will work for everyone. That is a huge task. I am confident it will work for most individuals. There just are too many factors involved in training with humans. How on earth are we going to control all factors? It is a pipedream. If we can construct the theory that works by building on known results we have a good chance of achieving something worthwhile.

The only reason this thread is still active is because there are interested parties who want to know more. Several people have sent me messages asking me for training advice. I thought if I made a post I might be able to help them in the process. I would prefer to know the theory and some details of equipment, etc. The rest I could figure out. Why is that asking too much of others here? Surely we are not novices with no clue at all?

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #157 on: October 18, 2006, 08:31:24 AM »
Quote
HIT argues that it is the right method. If followers do not make gains do they abandon the method? Nope. They simply come up with excuses or explanations to account for the lack of results. It is plain to me HIT theory is false. Period. There are some half truths that might be useful. The whole system is rubbish. Ditto for HST. Those methods are not going to work for massive gains.
Vince has some valid points, but is also prone to talking at people (pontificating: not much back and forth, answering selectively) and making blanket statements. Someone with that degree of experience should know better than to talk in absolutes, given the fact that there is nothing conclusive yet about many of these theories. Smarter, in the absence of perfect knowledge, to assume that each has some validity, to pick and choose from each those things which work-most of Gironda's & Jones' theories make sense, but not all.

I am not a HIT practicioner but am aware that it can be effective in theory and practice for those with the proper psyche needed to use it on an ongoing basis-not a large segment of trainers. True HIT is agonizing; most HIT trainers aren't doing real HIT nor is it satisfying for most trainers. Thus we have to separate effectiveness from desirability, as well-if it's effective but unappreciated for the long-term, it's efficacy is limited.

We also aren't sure whether HIT or any system works for the long-term vs. immediate short-term gains realized by the shock engendered by a change to any new and effective protocol, which can be misleading.

Lastly, it's still not established how much of the benefits of Jones' training was due to:

-The effectiveness of the equipment
-The effectiveness of HIT
-The effectiveness of being forcibly driven beyond normal training bounds, with a training partner. Those advantages might apply equally to conventional training as well as HIT.
-Synergies involving the above.

A better interview might've drilled down below the surface on these.

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #158 on: October 18, 2006, 08:34:11 AM »
Hi to Christian Thibaudeau. A bit of supplement promotion in that Gironda article.  Larry Scott gave a seminar at my gym in 1979. I recorded it and have it on tape somewhere. It should be put into written form and circulated. At the vary least given back to Larry for his site. Larry joked that some of Vince's ideas were extreme and were occasionally used to get attention.

About the guys who are growing in my gym. The natural guys stay the same it appears. That is sad to see. They won't listen to me because they don't believe me. Well there you are.

Some of the casual trainees make gains but only in the upper body. They hate doing legs. I guess when their arms get bigger they love training arms and specialize on them and look very impressive. Very few guys ever train hard enough to cause any growth.

You see, my method requires growth from each and every workout. Your arms and calves can be measured bigger. If you are not growing you have to try something different and maybe train again the very next day. There is no other way. If something doesn't work immediately you have to do something different.

A case in point which I have mentioned before is triceps training. You are unlikely to get big triceps if you continue to do only pressdowns. It won't happen. What happens is that as you use heavier weights you recruit other muscles to assist that movement and you are no longer working triceps that hard. If they are not really sore the next day you didn't train them right. So get back in the gym again and make them sore. Forget about training any other body part. Find out how to make specific muscles grow rapidly. You don't need drugs and I doubt if you need supplements.



good point Vince about making the muscle sore.  I have to disagree with the not needing suppplements!

as you know creating that "sore" feeling in the muscle depletes it of glycogen.  Why not use supplements (Dextrose/Maltodextrin) to replenish the glycogen store and initiate the healing process as soon as possible.

also what kind of work out splits do you recommend?  you mentioned something about not needing to train a bodypart more than once per week. With that in mind I see tons of big fat guys making their muscle sore but the BF is not coming off. This could be attributed to nutrition.
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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #159 on: October 18, 2006, 08:38:00 AM »
So Vince,what would you have a trainee do to continue growing?

You have given us a history lesson with Scott,Oliva,and Gironda and Jones,but have not elaborated on your theory at all.

Give us a hypothetical case scenario using an imaginary trainee please.

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #160 on: October 18, 2006, 09:00:04 AM »
So Vince,what would you have a trainee do to continue growing?

You have given us a history lesson with Scott,Oliva,and Gironda and Jones,but have not elaborated on your theory at all.

Give us a hypothetical case scenario using an imaginary trainee please.

lol, Vince doesn't deal with the practical application..he only gives theory
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Vince B

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #161 on: October 18, 2006, 09:03:28 AM »
Lots of guys have already developed huge muscles but few have done that naturally. Leroy Colbert was in the magazines in the 50s and 60s claiming to be the first man to have 20 1/2 inch muscular arms. Amazing for those days. What we wonder is if those sorts of gains are possible for some of us without any drugs.

I am not against supplements but require rigid testing and evidence for accepting them and timing, etc. Too many people are making money out of supplements and that worries me. Still, there is a lot to know about nutrition. Read the textbooks instead of the magazines and you might be okay. Well, read the actual research journals, too.

I doubt training a muscle once a week will lead to much growth. My strategy is to trigger growth and then keep the muscle growing. You have to avoid recovery and adaptation because then you will be up against the repeated bout effect. Target a few muscles and the adjoining muscles will get some benefit. Do not train the whole body.

I am off to bed now. I will add more to the training suggestions tomorrow my time.

Vince B

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #162 on: October 18, 2006, 09:05:09 AM »
If the theory doesn't work it is false and has to be abandoned. There is nothing more practical than that.

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #163 on: October 18, 2006, 09:06:37 AM »
Believing in products is hardly science. I am afraid I am not impressed with the supplement industry. They still exaggerate and that disappoints me. Bodybuilders are gullible because they are not growing so there is a ready market. The general public is also ignorant so buy way too many unnecessary things.

I see I am wasting my time with people like Beast. Where are the champions explaining in great detail how to get really big? You have to pay for that information but it is mostly non-existent. I am trying to involve others and see if together we can be led to the correct hypertrophy theory.

HIT argues that it is the right method. If followers do not make gains do they abandon the method? Nope. They simply come up with excuses or explanations to account for the lack of results. It is plain to me HIT theory is false. Period. There are some half truths that might be useful. The whole system is rubbish. Ditto for HST. Those methods are not going to work for massive gains. The people behind these methods know this, too. That is the sad thing. I have more intellectual honesty than that. I design and build machines. If they aren't used then what good are they? I have to have something right to get them so that bodybuilders will use them. It is not guesswork but applied technology.

I probably cannot specify the complete field theory of hypertrophy that will work for everyone. That is a huge task. I am confident it will work for most individuals. There just are too many factors involved in training with humans. How on earth are we going to control all factors? It is a pipedream. If we can construct the theory that works by building on known results we have a good chance of achieving something worthwhile.

The only reason this thread is still active is because there are interested parties who want to know more. Several people have sent me messages asking me for training advice. I thought if I made a post I might be able to help them in the process. I would prefer to know the theory and some details of equipment, etc. The rest I could figure out. Why is that asking too much of others here? Surely we are not novices with no clue at all?


of course i am interested in a positive discussion on promoting gains in strength and muscle tissue, but all you can do is critique people that actually go out and do it without actually providing a positive insight. you just tease that you have a differing theory. well let's hear it?

it is very easy to think you have an answer, but what use is that? you have a hypotheses without the experiment. that's ridiculous.

at least arthur jones actually tested his theories on subjects and drew conclusions based on practical evidence. how the hell are you fit to knock that. you won't even comit them to text.

that is why i say you're an attention whore because what else are you doing here?

read the title of the thread jackass. you typed it. it has nothing to do with open discussion. you started it to critique.

well why is hit wrong then? because not everyone use it? is that your explanation?

so for it to be right, more people must be using it then? hmmm, that sounds logical ::) brilliant.

so far (7 pages) the only insight i've got from you is that if you aren't growing constantly then your training is ineffective. wow. you do know that if one was to grow constantly they would die don't you? you do know that is not possible? the human body strives to maintain equilibrium and the last thing in the world it wants to do is produce endless amounts of muscle tissue.

perhaps i should start a thread with an open letter to all 'basile theory' believers...oh hang on, you haven't actually got a theory do you?  


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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #164 on: October 18, 2006, 09:35:38 AM »
Hi Vince,

I did some research on your methods and they seem to make a lot of sense. In fact I'm gonna try them out myself. Why? Because I made the best gains in pec hypertrophy when I concentrated on doing lots of flyes for a while. I didn't do much for the rest of the body. Right now I'm going to focus on quads and triceps...

Day 1
triceps extensions (lots of sets.)
dumbell row 3-5 sets

Day2
dumbell flyes 3-5 sets
biceps curls 3-5 sets

Day3
bulgarian squats (lots of sets)
hamstrings 3-5 sets.

I'll try to train the muscle groups in like three days. But I understand that I cannot always train triceps and back together since the most important part is keeping the triceps sore. So I basically try to keep quads and tris sore and fit the rest of the body in wherever I can. Did I understand your theory?

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #165 on: October 18, 2006, 09:46:12 AM »
 ::)

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #166 on: October 18, 2006, 09:58:48 AM »
How is soreness an indicator of growth?

If you don`t rest and recuperate,you will not grow!

This thread has taught me one thing,and that is that this thread sucks!!  :)

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #167 on: October 18, 2006, 10:20:16 AM »
Throw rules out the window in BBing training and eating. It is so person-specific, I think most of this theory is useless. Read about nutrition. Read about how to train and different methods. From there on, the gym and the kitchen are at your disposal to find what works for you.

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #168 on: October 18, 2006, 10:26:41 AM »
"Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
Red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
Lets me see there is so much more
and beckons me to look through to these infinite possibilities.
As below, so above and beyond, I imagine...
drawn outside the lines of reason...
Push the envelope. Watch it bend.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition leaving all these opportunities behind."


                                               --Tool, "Lateralus"


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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #169 on: October 18, 2006, 11:10:26 AM »
AND I think that it also validates the way Scott trained (under Vince Gironda... really theyr are Gironda's methods, not Scott's): that is to use very short rest periods. BTW I wrote an article about Gironda's methods a while ago. You can read it here:

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=06-092-training

Not true at all CT. I mentioned this in one of my previous posts. The interview in the link you’ve provided with Sergio and Brian D. Johnston was conducted BEFORE the interview with “The Sandwich” and was already posted all over the internet. It is a completely different interview which I have also read.

At the time of the interview with Johnston, Johnston was an HIT proponent and had some type of an association with Mike Mentzer. Johnston developed a personal trainer certification program as well as a course called J-reps which it Johnston’s own method of increasing intensity (you can Google J-reps). Mike and Johnston had some type of a falling out which Mike talked about on his Website due to the fact that according to Mike, Johnston abandoned HIT to advocate volume training. I do not know Johnston’s side of the story.

I’m still waiting for someone to address my questions.   
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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #170 on: October 18, 2006, 02:42:46 PM »
So Vince what were we supposed to learn here in this thread?  You invite the high intensity believers in just to shoot down that training protocol along with every other one mentioned here.  You seem to favor Larry Scott's principles but fail to explain what they are and allude to having some theory that will keep natural BBers growing continually.  So please what are the Im-Basile Training Priciples?  Larry Scott seems to think burn, pump and soreness are growth indicators but science proves they are not.  What kind of routine would you suggest for a natural BB that has been training for 10 yrs and is stuck at a plateau as far as strength and growth are concerned?  Just lay out a sample routine disregarding diet and supplementation.  I'd like to see it and how it differs from the other training programs out there.  Thanks.

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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #171 on: October 18, 2006, 02:47:11 PM »
Note to everyone:

Don't post on this thread until Vince post some suggested routine or a general idea on how he thinks one should go about training.


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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #172 on: October 18, 2006, 03:09:56 PM »
AND I think that it also validates the way Scott trained (under Vince Gironda... really theyr are Gironda's methods, not Scott's): that is to use very short rest periods. BTW I wrote an article about Gironda's methods a while ago. You can read it here:

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=06-092-training

Great article CT.
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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #173 on: October 18, 2006, 03:21:41 PM »

HIT argues that it is the right method. If followers do not make gains do they abandon the method? Nope. They simply come up with excuses or explanations to account for the lack of results.


Vince this is one statement were I agree with you.

But, surely you must be aware that this is the result of Jones/Mentzer/Darden teachings. Both men would always blame a lack of progress on the lack of intesity of the trainee or their genetics or the fact that they were STILL over-training. It was never that their system was flawed or that the system didn't work for everyone. The followers are simply repeating the platitudes of Jones/Mentzer/Darden.
 
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Re: Open letter to high intensity believers, hardgainers, etc.
« Reply #174 on: October 18, 2006, 03:25:25 PM »
So Vince what were we supposed to learn here in this thread?  You invite the high intensity believers in just to shoot down that training protocol along with every other one mentioned here.  You seem to favor Larry Scott's principles but fail to explain what they are and allude to having some theory that will keep natural BBers growing continually.  So please what are the Im-Basile Training Priciples?  Larry Scott seems to think burn, pump and soreness are growth indicators but science proves they are not.  What kind of routine would you suggest for a natural BB that has been training for 10 yrs and is stuck at a plateau as far as strength and growth are concerned?  Just lay out a sample routine disregarding diet and supplementation.  I'd like to see it and how it differs from the other training programs out there.  Thanks.

my friend if you are seeking a practical application of the "Im-basille" theory then you are in the wrong place

as vince has stated before through out his seven pages of rambling:

7 pages comes down to this:

anyone can grow indefinitely using my methods, I won't tell you what they are in the practical sense but all of others don't work. Just remember get sore and stay sore, especially in the triceps.  And for cardio try shagging a sheep or two Aussie style preferrable, right Lee ;)
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