Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.

[wes]

my friend if you are seeking a practical application of the "Im-basille" theory then you are in the wrong place

as vince has stated before through out his seven pages of rambling:

7 pages comes down to this:

anyone can grow indefinitely using my methods, I won't tell you what they are in the practical sense but all of others don't work. Just remember get sore and stay sore, especially in the triceps.  And for cardio try shagging a sheep or two Aussie style preferrable, right Lee

LOL 

[Vince B]

It is obvious very few people are capable of discussing the philosophy of hypertrophy. If they were they wouldn't keep asking for a detailed prescription about how to proceed.

Let me say something about falsifying a method. If we can agree on this then that has to apply to my method as well. If you propose that intensity is the main factor in hypertrophy then how do you explain zillions of trainees training for intensity but no longer growing? Remember Mike Mentzer's long articles where he talked about some of his clients who couldn't grow? In each instance he related that all that was necessary was to schedule less frequent sessions and growth finally occurred. If someone trained too often that was why they wouldn't grow. Mike would insist that these individuals couldn't grow. Now, how would we know if this is a scientific fact? Well, we would have to get a group of guys who couldn't grow and then control the factors in one group while doing nothing to the other group. If the experimental group gained then it might suggest that factor made the difference. We have nothing like that to limit our claims. What happens is theorists and writers can claim whatever they like. Anecdotal experience is fact in magazines and discussion boards. That clearly is not sufficient to prove a theory correct. If a method doesn't work for everyone it might be false and should be abandoned. What happens is the method remains and gets modified to account for the lack of growth. Or it is claimed trainees are not doing it right. The theory remains no matter what happens and that is not science.

I think HIT training is more related to gaining strength than size. There is a relationship between strength and size but it is not a linear one. Stronger people are usually bigger but not always.

If intensity is not a sufficient factor in training then what else is required? Intensity MAY be adequate to cause growth in some individuals some of the time. It is easy to falsify. Just train as outlined in the method and see how you go. If you don't keep growing then what? Sure, all theories have to be modified to account for unusual individuals and so on. Ad hoc clauses are needed to keep the theory consistent. The idea is to fine tune a theory until it covers all contingencies. Well, HIT and Heavy Duty have been around for decades. I think it has had a fair go. Sure it looks good on paper but in practice it leaves much to be desired.

It should be obvious that while a threshold re loading has to be reached a certain number of repeats have to be done to trigger more and more hypertrophy. In other words, you need volume over a certain threshold resistance. How much volume and what threshold is what theories are all about. More on this later.

A guy called Bryan Haycock was clever enough to comprehend exercise science research. He then distilled enough 'facts' from that research to create what he called Hypertrophy Specific Training principles. He then fashioned a method based on those principles and has a website to support it and allow discussion of the method, etc. What do we find re the success rate? Well, it is unclear because many there embrace that method like disciples. There are guards appointed to intercept and dispatch anyone who might attack and/or undermine the system. Bryan seldom debates the issues. If you go to the archives and read what was posted two years ago then do the same for last year and then finally read what is now posted you will find a repetitive similarity in the questions asked and issued raised. When results are not forthcoming one has to manipulate the method. Or take a longer break to allow the muscles to strategically recover. Interesting stuff. Does it work? Sure, for a while and for beginners. There should be HST guys winning national shows by now. What do we find? A few intermediates claiming modest results. Some German guy endorsed his method but was arrested in Europe on charges relating to drugs used in bodybuilding.

We all have some experience in training. We can easily test theories and methods to see if they work. What do we find? Most theories and methods do not work. Heck, most guys cannot grow no matter what they do! Why is that? Why can't most intermediate and advanced trainees easily grow? Do you think it is possible to take a group of guys with say 17 1/2 inch muscular arms and have HIT or HST experts quickly add an inch to their girths? Nope, it won't happen. Why? Because those methods as outlined are not going to lead to 18 1/2 inch cold arms. There is no point lying to bodybuilders. If you look on sites promoting various methods look around and see if they are selling anything. If they are then suspect that system. Anyone selling products is a businessman and not a scientist or philosopher. I do credit Mentzer with being a philosopher and it really is a pity that Mike died in 2001 just before he tuned 50. We lost a very sharp mind. Ellington Dardon has a PhD and is still championing the HIT principles. It appears that method is not going to lie down and die.

The obvious point is that in the absence of any comprehensive method that works for everyone we can have all manner of competing methods all claiming some validity. If you don't make gains you aren't doing it right.

This post is long enough. More later.

I don't think it is fair for moderators to change the titles in threads by way of commenting on the content. If those moderators like Hedgehog and Max Rep want to debate with me then show up and present your case. Insisting that I spell out some formula is egging on the knuckleheads here. I don't think that is responsible behavior. This is, afterall, an opinion board. I am not posting this on the training board. So I do ask that I be given a fair go to present things the way I wish to. A seminar occurs when informed people gather to discuss an issue. Why should I hand out cookies to every beggar showing up with his hat in his hand?

[Hedgehog]

The reason Vince, as to why I change the title of the thread, is because I want to make sure that nobody reads your posts in hope of finding any hints to what you believe is the proper way of training.


In regards to your scientific method of falsifying non-working training protocols:

You're not even close to taking on a scientific approach, I'm sorry.

As an example, we don't know jack shit about the training OR results that Sergio Oliva performed when training with Arthur Jones.

That is, we need to get sets, reps and loads for every workout, plus his entire nutrition and drug protocol when down there.

Still, you use Sergio Oliva as an example.

I think this shows that you need to re-think your "scientific" approach.

You also claims that a method either works. Or it doesn't.

That sounds very good in theory.

But the problem is when a juiced up genetic freak trains on a less than stellar protocol with optimal rest and optimal nutrition, he will most likely still grow like a weed.

Sadly, you don't seem to realise this.

I asked you to drop a suggested routine, as this would sort of give us an idea to how you feel about training.

Then, there would be feedback, which would help you.

But perhaps you're not interested in dialogue, only in monologue?

YIP
Zack

[Rammer]

I asked you to drop a suggested routine, as this would sort of give us an idea to how you feel about training.

YIP
Zack

Yeah really, Vince claims you should have immediately measurable growth after each workout or your doing something wrong.  I want to know what workout will give me those types of gains.  And what measuring device do you use Vince?  My tape measure only measures to 1/32 of an inch 

[IFBBwannaB]

give a guy enough food and gh and he could ride a tricycle all day and still win a local NPC show.

You dont know much about GH do you?
It actualy doesnt do shit without the proper anabolics involved.(muscle gainage wise)

[dav-bol]

 Redundant, lengthy, circular bullshit.
Waste of bandwidth.

My advice: Up the dosage and be done with it.

[Max_Rep]

The reason Vince, as to why I change the title of the thread, is because I want to make sure that nobody reads your posts in hope of finding any hints to what you believe is the proper way of training.

Zack as I said in my first post in this thread, this thread is no different then a similar thread three or four years ago. Vince made the same statements of superiority in knowledge about hypertrophy and never gave one indication of practical application.

According to Vince Jones was a genius who made the god Sergio into a Super-God BUT his methods won't work for anyone. Neither will the methods of his students.

No-one no matter how experienced or knowledgeable, offers anything worth merit except Vince but his methods are a mystery to the entire intergalactic universe. He offers no proof that his theories are effective, no case studies, just rhetoric

This thread is a complete waste of time which was his intent in the first place.

[bb doc]

http://www.amazon.ca/Medical-Writing-Prescription-Neville-Goodman/dp/0521498767


Vince -

If the author cant communicate his/her ideas clearly to an interested audience, it is the AUTHOR's fault, not the audience.

If you really want to teach people something, condense your 3000 word emails into a nicely formatted, comprehensible, argument rather than this circular, rambling crap you keep posting.

Good luck

[andydude00]

Hey Vince. I have talked to you before and I mentioned how under constant stress I got my calves to grow this past summer.I carried a heavy bookbag and walked everyday for about an hour. I have also noticed that after carrying a heavy duffelbag to school one of my traps is about 1/2 an inch larger than the other when flexed. I think that my muscles grow rapidly under constant stress (one of your beliefs). How would I apply this to my other bodyparts? For shoulders would holding a dumbbell at a full contraction (shoulder raise style) stimulate growth? Well I will try it out. But what is the explanation for this? Do natural bodybuilders need a completely new way of training like what I stated?

Also I think it is possible to get results from all techniques but not for very long. I have tried HIT but I plateued and changed to training with higher reps. I have tried circuit training, also. Part of the problem for me was gains in strength. For natural bodybuilders I would also say that diet is much more important than for non natural. I found it hard to increase my calories to a point where my bodyfat wouldn't be increasing along with the muscle. Then the other problem was getting ripped. Everytime I would try to get ripped I would lose a crazy amount of mass.

Another question I have is about overtraining. Is anything over 1 hour counterproductive? Or is it bs? I can tell if I am going to be sore the day after, and sometimes it takes me more than 1 hour to get there? I do continue to make gains, but at a very slow rate. Well I hope Vince or anyone can tell us about their experiences, questions, and findings.

[Vince B]

Zack, is that your idea of a dialogue? What are you contributing except criticism which equals nothing at all.

Rammer. Just because you seldom grow rapidly enough that you cannot measure the gains from day to day does not mean this cannot happen.

Now, just to make one thing clear. Everyone makes statements about drugs and bodybuilding but I haven't seen any recent studies done on advanced bodybuilders. All these opinions are just speculation and conjecture. Where is the evidence? All we have is anecotal reports and cynical analyses by armchair experts. That adds up to very little. I could care less that most big guys use drugs. So what? We can still look at the size they attained and some of the protocols that helped them get that big. Clearly not everyone using drugs develops large muscles. If that were true there would be no need for oil injections and inserts.

Some of you people think I am completely dismissing HIT and other methods. Well, I claim that they don't work for everyone or for very long. In my method it matters not how you trigger growth. Do you people comprehend that at all? The stimulus has to trigger growth and then has to be able to trigger more growth on a continuous basis. If you fail to sustain growth you have to try something else? How much clearly can I be?

Let us examine the possibility of maximum possible hypertrophy from a particular day. Suppose we select a group of advanced trainees who all have large muscles and have been training for many years. How would we go about inducing more growth in these individuals? We select only natural bodybuilders to keep our sample uncontaminated. Well, according to a suggestion by Haycock it appears from the animal studies of Antonio and others that something like 8 hours of sufficient tension are going to induce maximum hypertrophy. Let us presume this will also apply to humans. Since it is not practical to put a target muscle under tension continuously for 8 or more hours we will have to improvise and perhaps try doing an effective exercise or two targetting arms for example and supersetting back and forth for the whole darn time. Now, it might be that for guys who train up to an hour on arms anyway that leaping to 8 or more hours right away is not necessary. It may well be that 2 hours of arm training will stimulate maximum hypertrophy the first workout. It is then an easy matter to increase the length of time to keep the muscle growing.

I suspect that some progression might be practical. There have been individuals who have tried 'all day' arm training and not reported much in the way of permanent gains. I did this twice and nothing much happened. Clearly, one such day will not induce anything permanent at all. Antonio suggests someone try these long tension workouts and see what happens. It is my guess that if one were to do the 8 to 12 hour protocol that something will have to happen soon or there will be an injury. Since no one has systematically tried a program like this and sustained it we have no idea what will happen. A muscle under increasing loads that are sustained for days respond by growing and also growing new fibers. If hyperplasia can be induced this way then clearly that is what bodybuilders should be doing. Heck, we will need those 24/7 gyms afterall!

Should a trainee then persist and train the same way the next day or should he wait. Well, again we have to return to the literature and see what produced the best growth. It seems that training daily will not be necessary. We can only imagine the level of soreness following such a protocol and surely no one will be ready to train those arms again for a few days. The whole idea is to get the target muscles growing and then keep them growing by additional sessions and perhaps progressive resistance. It is my bet that strength will increase rapidly and one will be able to add weight easily over the period of perhaps a month or two.

You can see that such training for maximum growth is not something just anyone can do. The person has to have all his time to devote to this task.

A suggested workout would be Triceps extensions with arms elevated on pads. This exercise would be supersetted with parallel close grip lat pulldowns to the front of the chest. I predict both the arms and all the upper body will hypertrophy rapidly.

On the arm rest days one can do a thigh workout. We can only imagine what this will do to the body. No one has attempted anything approaching this before. Not that I am aware of. It may be sufficient to train only the upper body but if the legs were included then the systems of the body will be stimulated like never before. The brain will wonder what the hell is going on and will summons up the fire brigade, ambulance and police all at once. 'Someone is trying to kill me', will be the message the brain receives!

It is clear that just any exercise is not sufficient. One has to be completely sure that selected exercises will generate growth. This should be known before proceeding because it will be pointless to waste all that time and effort only to find the exercise was inadequate. This is where experience is invaluable.

Now, can one induce sub-maximal gains and still grow like crazy? Yes, and this might be more practical. Haycock suggests that perhaps 4 hours of tension might induce 50% of the maximum hypertrophy possible from a session. This might be the preferred path to try this method. You could do the 4 hours and see how you go. It may well be that anything over 4 hours is unnecessary! Now that would be sad to discover.

Please understand that I am just speculating about possible hypertrophy. Do not try this method and then blame me for unforseen consequences or injuries. I hope the connective tissue adapts side by side with hypertrophy and if not then that is a huge limit to maximum hypertrophy training. MHT training is not for the meek!

About DOMS. Well, what other feedback mechanism do we have that indicates drastic changes occurring in muscles? Why does DOMS occur after some training but not all training? From the little research on DOMS that I have seen I would bet DOMS is related to growth. All rapid growth is accompanied by DOMS. That doesn't mean that all DOMS will lead to growth. I hope everyone appreciates this and doesn't think the DOMS method is falsified by silly protocols that result in soreness but no growth. It is also a fact that DOMS is associated with some inflammation. How much of that is hypertrophy and how much swelling? No one knows. At a practical level it doesn't matter. You are going to try to get the muscles larger every day and so what is some of that is swelling? As you get stronger you can be confident most of the swelling will be hypertrophy/hyperplasia.

It may be that hypertrophy is an adaptation to shorter protocols. The long under tension ordeals might generate hyperplasia. If this is true then I am afraid the longer sessions will be necessary. If hyperplasia can be induced then this is what bodybuilding needs. Instead of taking years to build large muscles it might take just months. I have no idea how long growth can be sustained. In a previous experiment on myself I injured both my elbows and achilles tendons. I was doing arms and calves. I put an inch on my arms and over an inch on my calves. I was so enthusiastic by my gains I was running to the gym and training body parts every 2 or 3rd day. My strength on calves exploded geometrically and I was doing set after set after set with 6 and 7 hundred pounds for 60 to 70 quick, short reps. It was painful but effective. I would do a set walk in two short circles and return within 20 seconds to do the next set. Perhaps 10 sets were done like this and that was after many decending warmup sets. The bouncing damaged the Achilles tendons and I had to stop. That was really disppointing. So, no ballistic movements. I assume that is the problem and not the protocols. Likewise I damaged the sheath covering the elbows by pressing the elbows on pads for those extensions. Now I advise everyone to warm up thoroughly and keep the elbows beyond the pads. So far there has been no pain once I get warmed up. Even though I have had sore elbows since 1965 I can still train triceps hard by first warming them up with lots of high rep sets. Why the pain evaporates after engorging the muscle is a mystery. I am confident it was the faults in the execution and not the lack of adaptation in the connective tissue. I first concluded that DOMS training might be dangerous for the connective tissue. However, why should a muscle adapt and not the connective tissue? That makes no sense at all. Both must adapt together to the increased tension.

Anyway, I throw this out to the naysayers and we can continue from here.

[Vince B]

Andy used to train at my gym in the 1970s. He and I have communicated because now he lives in the States. I am glad that other older guys are interested in training to get bigger. I hope to outline my method and offer more details as we go.

I am impressed that Andy tried the daily walks with added bodyweight. If you did this systematically and climbed hills and kept adding weight you would probably grow like crazy.

[BEAST 8692]

Andy used to train at my gym in the 1970s. He and I have communicated because now he lives in the States. I am glad that other older guys are interested in training to get bigger. I hope to outline my method and offer more details as we go.

I am impressed that Andy tried the daily walks with added bodyweight. If you did this systematically and climbed hills and kept adding weight you would probably grow like crazy.

ok, so your into creating false accounts vince?

'andy' states that he carried his duffle bag to 'school' and grew larger trap.

you state that he is an old guy that trained at your gym in the 70's.

man, you are beyond pathetic. i think you need professional help.

[Vince B]

You, Beast, are no scientist at all. I have never posted on this site as anyone else. You can have my gym if you can prove that. In the meantime concentrate on the subject at hand.

[BEAST 8692]

You, Beast, are no scientist at all. I have never posted on this site as anyone else. You can have my gym if you can prove that. In the meantime concentrate on the subject at hand.

yep, basile, you the scientist man! apparently you have a 'theory' about how to train effectively but you haven't actually experimented with it or tested it in any way. hell, you can't even commit it to text.

yep, you the 'scientist' all the way bro.

[Max_Rep]

Eight pages of senseless rambling by someone who can't communicate.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

Sincerely,
Vince Basile

[240 is Back]

VINCE -

PLEASE POST A SUGGESTED ROUTINE. 

THANK YOU.

[Hedgehog]

Basile,
finally you're starting to communicate, although perhaps you may want to look into the art of being slightly more condensed.

As far as training a muscle group (in this case arms) repeatedly for a very long time, one of the problems would be that you would stimulate mainly the weak muscle fibers, Type I.

Unless you wait 3-6 minutes between every set, and uses heavy enough weights.

My main critisism of Haycock is that his protocol targets the Type I fibers too much.

Simply put: There are too little rest between sets. You should never risk that the strongest muscle fibers doesn't recover in time for the next set or excersise.

The same goes for you and your theories.

Check out Henneman's Principle for further reference on how muscle cells in a muscle work.

Then you will understand that doing lots of sets with little rest in between is counterproductive.

Despite what Arthur Jones, or anyone else, will tell you about supersets, training without rest or shit like that.

YIP
Zack

[Vince B]

I make no claim to know everything about muscles. There is simply too much to digest and comprehend. It would be a miracle if someone came up with the ultimate training program from exerience.

My guess about training is that hypertrophy and big muscles are good for moving moderately heavy loads several times and then repeating this over and over for an hour or so. Translated into sets and reps big muscles can do more than 15 sets for about 10 reps every 3 minutes for 45 minutes with the same resistance! HIT will develop muscles that will be good at heavy resistance for a few sets. The vast majority of big guys do heaps of sets with moderately heavy weights. That is the common factor and this is independent of drugs.

I have taken the volume idea to a different level. The most effective way to train is to do set after set with your maximum resistance for the target reps. If you do this you will have to rest longer and longer as the sets mount up. You have to do this because you reach a point after the 3rd superset where the reps decrease significantly. That is why I recommend doing about 15 reps as a target and then when they reduce to 8 after 4 or 5 sets you can keep going. If you end up doing 3 ro 4 reps this will not be as effective. Also you want to avoid recruiting other muscles to assist you move the weight. It is a fact that people cheat when they use heavy weights.

Now can you people imagine what doing your maximum resistance for 8 to 12 hours might do to your muscles? If you survive they might grow rapidly indeed. I have wanted to do this but would need a month to work up to that level. I would alternate lying extensions with lat pulldowns or chins on my assisted chinning machine. The chin machine allows you to hang and stretch at the bottom. By putting tension on a stretched muscle you are facilitating hypertrophy. The lying triceps movement has the triceps in a stretched position.

[UK Gold]

Basille, just give us a total body routine. Whatever 'gems of wisdom' reside within the reams of bullshit you spout are being lost to eveyone.

Give us a routine. Now.

[Rammer]

Vince, you use terms like "I bet...", "I imagine..." and "I predict..." a lot.  When you can use terms like "I know...", "It has been scientificly proven..." and "these are the results..." then I may start listening to you. 

[dr.chimps]

Vince -

If the author cant communicate his/her ideas clearly to an interested audience, it is the AUTHOR's fault, not the audience.

If you really want to teach people something, condense your 3000 word emails into a nicely formatted, comprehensible, argument rather than this circular, rambling crap you keep posting.

Good luck

I agree with my good colleague's diagnosis. It seems you are trying to convey some of the gleanings of a lifetime of bb experience but are locked in some kind of 'autistic' spasm resulting in a shambling, rambling rhetoric, and to some, sophistry.  

[Army of One]

In Fairness Vince did just post his theory in a nutshell, finally.Sounds like hell though.Basically involves training anywhere from 2-10 hours a day on a bodypart, forcing your brain to say "hey I have to adapt and make this muscle larger quick due to this ungodly stress".How come I can sum up your theory in 2 sentences Vince but it takes you around 20,000?

[pumpster]

Vince's long-winded meanderings, condensed:

"Buy my upcoming courses."



Anyone know whether the same advice from 4 years ago was recycled over from the original thread? 

[Vince B]

I have nothing unique to write about. If I were to employ my own ideas and myself build up now then that will be important. Too many write books about bodybuilding that don't say much. There aren't many original people out there.

I didn't have this theory 4 years ago. I did have the DOMS theory and now I am combining that with MHT. Someone has to come up with something different to help people who aren't growing. Who knows if it will work. It won't be much fun finding out, either!

[CT]

Vince, you know the saying "nothing is new under the sun"? Well it can be applied to everything in the world of bodybuilding; even your theory. You are not the first one to advocate super long (4-8 hours) workouts for the same body part using only 1-2 exercises.

The funny thing is that yesterday (before I read your theory) I was talking to my friend who is the president of the Quebec bodybuilding federation and who has lived and trained in Venice for many years, and we were discussing Vic Richards. My friend saw him train hundreds of times over a 2 years period and told me that Vic would basically only perform one exercise in a specific workout, but would train on that exercises for hours and hours (4 hours seemed to be his average).

Serge Nubret also trained a muscle group for at least 4 hours a day using moderate weight (for him).

I also remember the famous 1-day arm cure program which was first presented by Peary Rader which had a trainee train biceps and triceps for a whole day, performing a few sets of two exerises (in a superset fashion) every half hour.

Then Jay Schroedder (more of a performance trainer) published a similar program, but based more on neural (CNS) factors than metabolic factors... (he used low reps, heavy weights and intensity techniques instead of the original higher reps protocol espoused by Rader).

Finally Charles Poliquin further adapted Rader's method by adding a specific nutrition/supplementation schedule to go with the program.

Other related examples include Dr. Judd Biasiotto, when he was training for powerlifting (4 times world record holder) had a bench press set up in his kitchen and would perform a few sets everytime he was in the area.

Finally, most modern era olympic weightlifters (most notably the Bulgarian lifters) would train all day (it was their job). In segmented bouts of around 60 minutes followed by 60-90 minutes of rest/massage/eating.

Certainly not your exact theory, but these guys shared the same basis as you did.

But regarding Dr. Antonio's research. We must understand that it was conducted using *stretching* exercises not weightlifting. Weightlifting is more energy draining, requires a much greater implication of the central nervous system (especially if its passive stretching like in Dr.A's research) and cause more glycogen depletion and protein degradation. Trying to apply the same logic to a weightlifting workout would lead to either metabolic or nervous overtraining within a very short period of time.

Plus, we could also argue that a lot of physical labour workers do not continue to add muscle mass forever despite working hard physically 8-10 hours a day. At first they do gain muscle and strength, but once their body is adapted to the work schedule their muscle growth stops (otherwise they'd all be bigger than Ronnie Coleman). So the actual time spend contracting your muscles against a resistance cannot be the sole factor responsible for growth stimulation.