Author Topic: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.  (Read 66292 times)

AVBG

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #250 on: October 19, 2006, 06:37:40 PM »
Are you Retarded?

Hey Bast.. how you feeling? someone said you got polio

Bast000

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #251 on: October 19, 2006, 06:38:59 PM »
Hey Bast.. how you feeling? someone said you got polio

not that i know of


AVBG

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #252 on: October 19, 2006, 06:41:24 PM »
not that i know of



Dont sweat it. You deserved better at the Mr GB!

Vince B

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #253 on: October 19, 2006, 06:43:34 PM »
Well contributed, The Luke. Yes, animal studies are not always applicable to humans. A pity the scientists aren't doing more bodybuilding experiments on humans.

There is no need to go to failure. Well, I advocate doing as many reps that you know you can complete. Then rest and do more sets.

I am aware of the physiological fall-off in reps when training with maximum loads. That is why I superset with another muscle. Biceps and Triceps for example. Then to maintain a target rep range it is necessary to rest a bit longer between sets. Once you get the rhythm going it is possible to keep the reps around 7 or 8 and still do the maximum resistance. The trick is to select a maximum that you can do for about 15 reps. That is after several higher rep warmups. When the reps fall to 8 that is still sufficient to be safe and also trigger hypertrophy.

In practice, I usually recommend doing about 5 or 6 maximum sets. No one has done this for squats yet! Too damn hard. However, what would happen if they did such protocols.

I am aware that the repeated bout affect has a lingering presence in the muscles. All the more urgent, then, to avoid that adaptation and keep the muscles sore.

It is just speculation about all day training. It may or may not work. I think it would but I am not that confident. In the meantime, there are many sub-maximal routines that will be almost as effective. What worries me is we might miss out on possible hyperplasia if we persist with conventional training.

The Luke

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #254 on: October 19, 2006, 06:51:10 PM »
Are you Retarded?

The experiment I'm refering to involved a guy holding a bicep curl machine at full contraction for as long as he could (approx 2 mins I think), electrodes in the biceps were used to maintain an involuntary contraction long after the subject was unable to continue... eventually failure was reached independently of increased voltage.

Basically; they flexed some poor bastards bis against resistence using electrodes... as the weight started to lower they ramped up the voltage... they continued doing this till the muscles reached TRUE (cellular) muscle failure.

Subsequent MRI scans showed muscular damage lasting 80 days... full strength returned around the 90th day. They didn't mention anything about noticeable size changes that I'm aware of....

The workouts Vince is advocating would necessitate lengthy layoffs for recovery (weeks).

The Luke

pumpster

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #255 on: October 19, 2006, 07:12:04 PM »
Quote
The workouts Vince is advocating would necessitate lengthy layoffs for recovery (weeks).
80 days, weeks between workouts..if you're serious you're really onto something with practical applications. ::)

The all-day thing could be viable.

Bast000

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #256 on: October 19, 2006, 07:13:52 PM »


Basically; they flexed some poor bastards bis against resistence using electrodes... as the weight started to lower they ramped up the voltage... they continued doing this till the muscles reached TRUE (cellular) muscle failure.



How do you figure that is the same as 1 biceps curl?

The Luke

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #257 on: October 19, 2006, 07:15:52 PM »
How do you figure that is the same as 1 biceps curl?

He just lowered the weight once over the course of two minutes... screaming and puking the whole time.


The Luke

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #258 on: October 20, 2006, 01:46:33 AM »
Vince after reading your posts it seems that you see soreness (DOMS) as the trigger fro muscle growth. If that is the case then I must disagree: play a sport intensely, even if its a very catabolic one (tennis or a marathonfor example) and chances are that your muscles will get sore yet these will not cause hypertrophy. I used to work with a lot of triathletes and after their big competitions their muscles ached all over yet they were all very small.

Another example could be hitting you with a baseball bat... if I strike your hamstrings (for example) it will cause muscle damage and subsequent soreness and swelling. Yet, nobody ever grew big from getting beat up!

If muscle soreness was the trigger for muscle growth then it would stand to reason that:

a) anything that cause muscle soreness will trigger muscle growth
b) every thing that doesn't cause soreness will not trigger growth

Furthermore some people get very sore easily while other don't get sore that much, even if they have a similar training experience and follow the same program. This is likely due (in part) to some peoples being more sensible to pain (they have more receptors or their receptors are activated to send the "pain" signal at a lower treshold). Not to mention that overtime, even if the training stimulus increases, the body gets used to soreness and the pain treshold augment: while there might be the same amount of muscle damage; the soreness it causes will decrease.

I'm NOT saying that your protocol will not work. I'm saying that DOMS itself is not a trigger for musle growth... just like the pain felt from an inury is not what causes the body to heal itself.

BEAST 8692

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #259 on: October 20, 2006, 03:14:47 AM »
exactly, which i pointed out about 6 pages ago but apparently basile didn't read it.

i am certain now that any success that vince had a a bb was completely reliant on his admitted use of steroids. his ideas are completely illogical and he is arrogant enough to state them as effective without any trial, and on a continual basis regardless of age, hormones, muscle cells, etc.

my question to vince is: how the fuck did you get to 60 odd by being so ignorant.


Tapeworm

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #260 on: October 20, 2006, 04:03:37 AM »
Well Vince, you're as mad as a hatter but your heart is in the right place. 

Vince B

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #261 on: October 20, 2006, 06:13:30 AM »
CT I have dealt with that in a previous post in this thread. DOMS does not trigger hypertrophy but DOMS accompanies rapid hypertrophy. DOMS is merely a state that is aimed for with the protocols I have outlined. Namely, heaps and heaps of sets with the maximum resistance for 8 to 15 reps.

BEAST 8692

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #262 on: October 20, 2006, 06:15:49 AM »
CT I have dealt with that in a previous post in this thread. DOMS does not trigger hypertrophy but DOMS accompanies rapid hypertrophy. DOMS is merely a state that is aimed for with the protocols I have outlined. Namely, heaps and heaps of sets with the maximum resistance for 8 to 15 reps.

hahaha...oh man, STFU already.

pumpster

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #263 on: October 20, 2006, 07:22:45 AM »
Quote
If muscle soreness was the trigger for muscle growth then it would stand to reason that:

a) anything that cause muscle soreness will trigger muscle growth
b) every thing that doesn't cause soreness will not trigger growth
1/It's quite possible that soreness from other activities is not the same thing as DOMS from lifting weights; one can't necessarily be compared to the other.
2/ Adding resistance to anything that causes soreness might then trigger further DOMS that is in fact similar to that from weight training.

Hedgehog

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #264 on: October 20, 2006, 07:38:42 AM »
CT I have dealt with that in a previous post in this thread. DOMS does not trigger hypertrophy but DOMS accompanies rapid hypertrophy. DOMS is merely a state that is aimed for with the protocols I have outlined. Namely, heaps and heaps of sets with the maximum resistance for 8 to 15 reps.

What evidence do you see for DOMS being related to rapid hypertrophy?

YIP
Zack
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alexxx

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #265 on: October 20, 2006, 07:46:52 AM »
What evidence do you see for DOMS being related to rapid hypertrophy?

YIP
Zack

His incredible muscle size. ::)
just push some weight!

Hedgehog

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #266 on: October 20, 2006, 08:01:12 AM »
His incredible muscle size. ::)

alex, please don't give Basile the easy cop-out of complaining that he's feeling insulted.

Let Basile once and for all put his theories out, and have them discussed.

With a minimum of namecalling.

Lets get to the core of his ideas.


Basile, lets try the question one more time:

What evidence do you see for DOMS being related to rapid hypertrophy?

YIP
Zack
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pumpster

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #267 on: October 20, 2006, 08:05:16 AM »
Quote
What evidence do you see for DOMS being related to rapid hypertrophy?
To be fair, there's no clear proof either way so it's unrealistic to ask for anything more than a theory rather than conclusive evidence.

From experience, from reading, intuitively and anecdotally, I think DOMS is critical.


Quote
alex, please don't give Basile the easy cop-out of complaining that he's feeling insulted
"Alexxx" once again confirming ongoing immaturity.

chris_mason

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #268 on: October 20, 2006, 08:20:46 AM »
Basile, lol, you do this every 6 months or so, eh?  You TALK a lot but do nothing.  A few years ago you claimed you could make your arms their biggest ever and blah, blah, blah but nothing.

Frankly, your claims resonate of TA's b.s.

Either do something or stop talking about it. 

Please.

w

alexxx

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #269 on: October 20, 2006, 08:23:20 AM »
I agree with Chris. Vince basile is on the same level of delusion as Ta and Vince G. Somebody should lock them all into a cage and see who comes out with the wackiest idea of breacking out without actully doing so.
just push some weight!

pumpster

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #270 on: October 20, 2006, 08:29:56 AM »
Quote
I agree with Chris. Vince basile is on the same level of delusion as Ta and Vince G. Somebody should lock them all into a cage and see who comes out with the wackiest idea of breacking out without actully doing so.
What does "Alexxx" propose as an alternative..

Vince B

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #271 on: October 20, 2006, 08:30:34 AM »
From what I have read about DOMS it seems it is associated with repairing damaged tissue in the muscle. If that is so then all DOMS is indicative of growth. If you do a light resistance and it causes DOMS then some growth is occurring. It is a simple matter to increase the resistance and keep the DOMS and you should grow. If you start with ridiculously light resistances then of course the growth will not be large. If you use significant resistance as suggested the growth will be rapid.

Evidence? Well, I did the DOMS training for a month. Arms and calves. Gained 1 inch on arms and over 1 inch on calves. That was over about 10 workouts so the gain was 1 inch divided by 10 which is pretty good going. I could measure increases the day after training. When you can do that you really get enthusiastic. I am confident that others should also gain rapidly. Of course you must be gaining bodyweight, too. If you don't then you might find you won't grow. Abandon all that stuff about protein and eating healthy. Most of that information is nonsense or not important. Eat a balanced diet and perhaps 4 meals a day. Don't use supplements. Hey, I must be the first bodybuilder in history to say this. Well, I don't lie or bs about training. That is what I believe. Sure, if you read the nutrition research you might be persuaded to do this and that. All a waste of time. Eat what your mum cooked for you but a little more of each serving. Don't eat too much protein because it is too hard on your system to digest. If you eat too much protein it gets converted into energy. That really is dumb and a waste of money and resources.

Someone asked about overtraining. I don't believe it happens in ordinary programs. I heard of a guy who was running in really hot weather and kept going even though he was dehydrated. His muscles sort of fused or something. Very sad. No one lifting weights has to worry about that. I agree with Lee Priest that it is not worth worrying about. I think that idea was supposed to explain why so many are not growing. You were supposed to be overtraining. What a joke. If anything you are undertraining but doing too many body parts. Why do all the body parts twice or three times a week? Do you think they will all grow? Nope. You won't get anywhere like that. That is one of those beliefs you have to abandon.

You know, Hedgehog, the sum of my posts in this thread is original and could easily have been published in a magazine. Yet I have knuckleheads knocking me for no good reason. Do you think anyone with something original to offer here would put up with this crap? I enjoy the responses of CT who is a recognized writer and thinker. Look at his responses and compare them to board heroes who try to dismiss someone instead of refute them. What a pity more people here aren't educated.

Anyway, I have persisted because I expect some to post that distracting stuff. What is the test of truth in this discussion? Results. It has nothing to do with opinions. I have told you I am ready to abandon my theories if they don't work. So instead of blasting me with nonsense go out and prove to yourself that I am all hot air. Try this training on a target muscle like calves. Do anything at all to get them sore. Then keep them sore for a month and see if they grow. You have to gain weight over the month or you are wasting your time. Report your results here.

alexxx

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #272 on: October 20, 2006, 08:35:20 AM »
What does "Alexxx" propose as an alternative..

Stop listening to this bickering old fool and do a program that has proven the best results.
just push some weight!

Vince B

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #273 on: October 20, 2006, 08:40:06 AM »
Alexxx are you so naive to believe you can't defeat me in a debate? What a dreamer. Come up with something original for goodness sake. Just knocking someone and calling them names wins you nothing at a university. You have to have an argument with substance. I do not accept that you are my peer or a bodybuilding expert so your opinions are worthless here or nearly so.

alexxx

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Re: Open letter to HIT believers, hardgainers, etc. Seminar.
« Reply #274 on: October 20, 2006, 09:04:44 AM »
Alexxx are you so naive to believe you can't defeat me in a debate? What a dreamer. Come up with something original for goodness sake. Just knocking someone and calling them names wins you nothing at a university. You have to have an argument with substance. I do not accept that you are my peer or a bodybuilding expert so your opinions are worthless here or nearly so.

No am not naive to believe that I can defeat you in a debate if I choose to.
just push some weight!