Steve Kuclo deadlifting 635 for three reps.

[sarcasm]

D.c, you do realize that lots bodybuilders boiled their beef as far back as 84 (and probably before), when mr universe had me doing it, right?  I don't know why he asked you that question, but I just hope this isn't another one of your "new" old ideas.  No offense here, just curious if you realized that.

show Dante some respect!! he invented bodybuilding.

[hangclean]

Not like anyone really cares, but bouncing some heavy deads off the floor can actually be beneficial if your lockout is your weak point.  It allows you to do a few more reps that you wouldnt get if you paused it therefore your locking out more weight more times.  Benedict Magnussen who is one of the 2 best deadlifters in the world actually trains this way sometimes.  Only problem is the 2 guys in the videos are not powerlifters so training like that shouldnt be of any use for them.

[Devon97]

Here is a question for every poster on this thread. When you deadlift in the gym, do you go without straps and make sure you take a deadstop 3 second pause between every rep, just in case maybe just maybe there might be a powerlifting judge 10 feet away sitting in a chair.....waiting to give you a green light or not?

When I saw Ronnie doing 805 for 2, my thoughts were "thats guys a freak!"
not "ohhhh bullshit he bounced the second rep, he sucks! Probaly couldnt get 400 without straps"   

He's a 21 year old bodybuilder Devon winging it in the gym....

I will answer your question DC. And NO, I do not pause 3 seconds b/t every set, sometimes I pause 2 and sometimes I pause 4.
THis was a very good post by Matt C and good video clips by 2 very strong lifters and has proved 2 things:

1)The VAST majority of people on this board have enrolled themselves in the belief system that Poor technique and bouncing of weight is OK and acceptable if you are VERY strong. Natural -Al said it himself, since "The kid is a 21 y/o monster it is a mute point."

2) DC along with the majority of people on this thread do NOT understand Elastic energy-------> you LOSE the elastic energy carryover when you pause. PROOF------> THe 2nd two reps he performed in the vid were easier then the first!


HangClean.. You make an excellent point.... It would benefit the 2 Bodybuilders in the vid , and actually contribute to more muscle growth ( the #1 goal) anyway to pause at the bottom. The posterior chain traps and lats would be doing more work and be more heavily "recruited" with a pause.

[The True Adonis]

I will answer your question DC. And NO, I do not pause 3 seconds b/t every set, sometimes I pause 2 and sometimes I pause 4.
THis was a very good post by Matt C and good video clips by 2 very strong lifters and has proved 2 things:

1)The VAST majority of people on this board have enrolled themselves in the belief system that Poor technique and bouncing of weight is OK and acceptable if you are VERY strong. Natural -Al said it himself, since "The kid is a 21 y/o monster it is a mute point."

2) DC along with the majority of people on this thread do NOT understand Elastic energy-------> you LOSE the elastic energy carryover when you pause. PROOF------> THe 2nd two reps he performed in the vid were easier then the first!


HangClean.. You make an excellent point.... It would benefit the 2 Bodybuilders in the vid , and actually contribute to more muscle growth ( the #1 goal) anyway to pause at the bottom. The posterior chain traps and lats would be doing more work and be more heavily "recruited" with a pause.

Couldn`t have said it better myself. 

[davidpaul]

all these little punks, hit some gear, think they are true players, they aint nobody, do a little a gear, think people gotta respect em.

[Overload]

Not like anyone really cares, but bouncing some heavy deads off the floor can actually be beneficial if your lockout is your weak point.  It allows you to do a few more reps that you wouldnt get if you paused it therefore your locking out more weight more times.  Benedict Magnussen who is one of the 2 best deadlifters in the world actually trains this way sometimes.  Only problem is the 2 guys in the videos are not powerlifters so training like that shouldnt be of any use for them.

I prefer rack deadlifts with about 100 pounds over my max floor deadlift...set the pins around the knee area.

bouncing the weights causes momentum, it does not add weight to the bar. more weight in the rack deadlift will help your lockout strength...same thing with bench, squat...etc

[Fury]

all these little punks, hit some gear, think they are true players, they aint nobody, do a little a gear, think people gotta respect em.

Meanwhile we should respect a 40 year old wannabe gang-banger having a mid-life crisis. Makes a lot of sense to me!

[sarcasm]

all these little punks, hit some gear, think they are true players, they aint nobody, do a little a gear, think people gotta respect em.

normally i would agree with you but these two guys work extremely hard based on that video, now i don't know for sure if that video is real but i'd say i'm 98 percent sure it is.

[hangclean]

I prefer rack deadlifts with about 100 pounds over my max floor deadlift...set the pins around the knee area.

bouncing the weights causes momentum, it does not add weight to the bar. more weight in the rack deadlift will help your lockout strength...same thing with bench, squat...etc

That momentum will usually only take you to about right above the knee.  The only problem with rack pulls is that you are never in your regular groove that you have from the floor.  I still do them anyway though because it helps my grip.

[Overload]

That momentum will usually only take you to about right above the knee.  The only problem with rack pulls is that you are never in your regular groove that you have from the floor.  I still do them anyway though because it helps my grip.

Good points...

the rack just helps me handle heavier weights...i see your point and agree it is a little different.

[DOGGCRAPP]

D.c, you do realize that lots bodybuilders boiled their beef as far back as 84 (and probably before), when mr universe had me doing it, right?  I don't know why he asked you that question, but I just hope this isn't another one of your "new" old ideas.  No offense here, just curious if you realized that.

I love how everyones ego is wrapped up so loosely in this sport. I suggest to a guy on a board a way of getting rid of some fat when he cooks ground beef and you take that as me saying "hi im the originator of this method?"  If you suggest to some guy to do some treadmill work to lose bodyfat should I assume that you think you invented cardio? Ridiculous.  
Think about it for a second. I didnt make up any fancy training pseudonames, I called my way of training "rest pause training" because thats the closest thing I could find to it (Rest pause is 6 singles of max weight with rest between them vs the way I do sets--going to failure 3 times during a set for 11-15 reps), and my screen name is "Doggcrapp".  
Does that sound like someone who is after some sort of glory to you?

[legbreaker]

No, absolutely it doesn't sound like someone after glory or whatever.  I just was curious, (because he sarcastically asked you if you rinsed your beef) if it was a new and improved diet method you suggest.  In this day and age where guys will actually try to convince naive people that medicine ball training is new and inovative for athletes, while it's been done since the early 1900's.  In strength and conditioning training there are acually guys that claim there new rope climbing/hand strengthening is a new technique, while it's been used since the days of the phys ed programs in the 30's.  Anyway, not wanting to start anything, it just a question. 

[Van_Bilderass]

" WHy should they pause them?" The carry over of elastic energy from each rep is aiding tremendously in each rep! WHy do u think the hardest rep was the first??lol

The extra strength from the stretch reflex is only a positive here. You are loading the muscle with more weight. More weight = more tension = growth.
In fact guys like Benni Magnusson use this to overload more in training. He starts his deadlift from the top by picking it up from a rack.

[natural al]

I will answer your question DC. And NO, I do not pause 3 seconds b/t every set, sometimes I pause 2 and sometimes I pause 4.
THis was a very good post by Matt C and good video clips by 2 very strong lifters and has proved 2 things:

1)The VAST majority of people on this board have enrolled themselves in the belief system that Poor technique and bouncing of weight is OK and acceptable if you are VERY strong. Natural -Al said it himself, since "The kid is a 21 y/o monster it is a mute point."
2) DC along with the majority of people on this thread do NOT understand Elastic energy-------> you LOSE the elastic energy carryover when you pause. PROOF------> THe 2nd two reps he performed in the vid were easier then the first!


HangClean.. You make an excellent point.... It would benefit the 2 Bodybuilders in the vid , and actually contribute to more muscle growth ( the #1 goal) anyway to pause at the bottom. The posterior chain traps and lats would be doing more work and be more heavily "recruited" with a pause.

here's the thing.  First these are national level guys, I think they have a pretty decent idea of what they are doing.  Second when I said that I was saying it becaue someone said if a 135lbs kid was doing the same thing everyone would be all over him.  Steve is not a 135lbs kid.  That was the context.  I just think it's funny how everyone on here is such a stickler for "proper form" and everytime something is posted all these people come out of the woodwork about form this, form that.  What are we here for?  We all want to build muscle and if this is the style that these guys train in and it works why should we questions them?  If you don't want to do your deadlifts like them then don't.  I don't see anything wrong with what they were doing.  Was it textbook form?  I'm not a powerlifter but I can say that it was probably not "textbook".  Was it decent?  I think it was.  Did it make me want to go deadlfit?  sure did.  

I don't think there's anything wrong with a little "cheating" as long as it's done in a controlled consistant fashion.

I just didn't think it was that far off of what 95% of the poeple out there are doing and I think some people are making waaay to big a deal out of it.

[natural al]

I love how everyones ego is wrapped up so loosely in this sport. I suggest to a guy on a board a way of getting rid of some fat when he cooks ground beef and you take that as me saying "hi im the originator of this method?"  If you suggest to some guy to do some treadmill work to lose bodyfat should I assume that you think you invented cardio? Ridiculous.  
Think about it for a second. I didnt make up any fancy training pseudonames, I called my way of training "rest pause training" because thats the closest thing I could find to it (Rest pause is 6 singles of max weight with rest between them vs the way I do sets--going to failure 3 times during a set for 11-15 reps), and my screen name is "Doggcrapp".  
Does that sound like someone who is after some sort of glory to you?

the thing is there are pople on this board who have a vendetta againts you that will do or say anything to discredit you.  I have never gotten the impression that I was gonna be a 240lbs monster just because I follow some DC principle.  If someone thinks that and fails or gets fat then that's thier own fault.  It's not like DC is twisting some guys arm saying you gotta train like I say and eat how I want you to eat and if you do you'll be a pro in 2 years.  Think.  That's what you have to do with any program.  If you honestly don't believe in the principles of any program then it will never work.  If you think a program will work then do it for a few months and assess your progress if it is not working then move away from it.  I had success with max-ot style training but I started having joint problems.  Was it my fault or the programs fault?  Maybe a little of both but I had the common sense to drop it before something bad happened.  Do I think I'm gonna be a pro because I use some of Dante's methods?  No, I'd be a fool to think that at this point in my lifel.  I enjoy this style of training, I'm getting stronger and I'm adding some muscle while maintaining a decent level of BF.  Am I ripped to the bone?  Nope but I'm not a lard ass either.  I can see my abs and I have viens in my forarms and quads.  Now if I followed DC's methods and I made no progress but put on fat I'd be the first guy to call bullshit.

I just don't get the total close mindedness of some of the people on this site, you've got guys on here who are pretty well known and all people want to do is attack, attack...why not pick thier brains and learn a thing or two instead of making the same stupid ground beef jokes that were made 2 years ago?

[Devon97]

The extra strength from the stretch reflex is only a positive here. You are loading the muscle with more weight. More weight = more tension = growth.
In fact guys like Benni Magnusson use this to overload more in training. He starts his deadlift from the top by picking it up from a rack.

"More weight= more tension= more growth" In some cases YES but in this case, NO.

Let me explain.

We both agree that if the deadlift was performed correctly for 3 reps (with a pause a/f each rep) then less weight would have to be used, weather it be 30lbs or 50 lbs less.

You see even though more weight was used....... there was also a tremendous amount of momentum used to bounce the weight off the floor. THis does not EQUATE to a heaver LOAD on the muscles. WHY? Because elastic energy and momentum was used to bounce the weight off the floor, the muscles were NOT doing all the work, momentum and elastic energy was used to "bounce" the weight off the floor.
The Visual proof of this is in the Vid when he hardly got the first rep and yet the last 2 reps were EASIER then the first. This is undisputable proof to support my point.

The muscles would have experienced a greater "growth stimulas" if 575 had been used for each rep with a 3 second pause b/t each rep. Less weight would have been used , HOWEVER there would be ZERO momentum and elastic energy to assist in the lift.

[Devon97]

The extra strength from the stretch reflex is only a positive here. You are loading the muscle with more weight. More weight = more tension = growth.
In fact guys like Benni Magnusson use this to overload more in training. He starts his deadlift from the top by picking it up from a rack.

I have not seen Magnusson Perform a conventional deadlift before , but i would be willing to bet that he NEVER intentionally bounces the weight off the floor.

Besides it is very dangerous with that heavy of a load and is sensless to risk injury. WHich is why I am surprised these 2 guys would risk injury just to boost their ego?

[Devon97]

here's the thing.  First these are national level guys, I think they have a pretty decent idea of what they are doing.  Second when I said that I was saying it becaue someone said if a 135lbs kid was doing the same thing everyone would be all over him.  Steve is not a 135lbs kid.  That was the context.  I just think it's funny how everyone on here is such a stickler for "proper form" and everytime something is posted all these people come out of the woodwork about form this, form that.  What are we here for?  We all want to build muscle and if this is the style that these guys train in and it works why should we questions them?  If you don't want to do your deadlifts like them then don't.  I don't see anything wrong with what they were doing.  Was it textbook form?  I'm not a powerlifter but I can say that it was probably not "textbook".  Was it decent?  I think it was.  Did it make me want to go deadlfit?  sure did.  

I don't think there's anything wrong with a little "cheating" as long as it's done in a controlled consistant fashion.

I just didn't think it was that far off of what 95% of the poeple out there are doing and I think some people are making waaay to big a deal out of it.

Whats the point of "cheating and bouncing" ?

Like you said they are both National level competitors, so what is the benefit of bouncing VERY heavy loads?
Not only is it poor lifting technique but it is VERY dangerous.
Natural -Al, why do u think 2 National level guys would ever risk injury by bouncing such a heavy load?
No need to boost their ego.... They are obviously VERY strong reguardless.

[sarcasm]

I have not seen Magnusson Perform a conventional deadlift before , but i would be willing to bet that he NEVER intentionally bounces the weight off the floor.

Besides it is very dangerous with that heavy of a load and is sensless to risk injury. WHich is why I am surprised these 2 guys would risk injury just to boost their ego?

there are a lot of videos of Benni and Andy Bolton going tit for tat on 900lb. plus deadlifts on the powerlifting board, Benni pulls very recklessly and fast and is an absolutely inhuman puller i can easily see him using this method of training of bouncing the weight off the floor, i also think that if benni and Bolton were forced to use a more conventional bar instead of the "funny bars" that they use for these 950lb. pulls their lifts would go down by 50lbs.

[Devon97]

there are a lot of videos of Benni and Andy Bolton going tit for tat on 900lb. plus deadlifts on the powerlifting board, Benni pulls very recklessly and fast and is an absolutely inhuman puller i can easily see him using this method of training of bouncing the weight off the floor, i also think that if benni and Bolton were forced to use a more conventional bar instead of the "funny bars" that they use for these 950lb. pulls their lifts would go down by 50lbs.

Interesting... well I have never seen those guys dead so I cant say.

[sarcasm]

Interesting... well I have never seen those guys dead so I cant say.

they're worth checking out, they are both unbelievably strong deadlifters but they compete with bars that bend four inches before the weight even breaks the floor.

[natural al]

Whats the point of "cheating and bouncing" ?

Like you said they are both National level competitors, so what is the benefit of bouncing VERY heavy loads?
Not only is it poor lifting technique but it is VERY dangerous.
Natural -Al, why do u think 2 National level guys would ever risk injury by bouncing such a heavy load?
No need to boost their ego.... They are obviously VERY strong reguardless.

Like I said, I don't think thier form was that bad.  What portion of the deadlift from a BB point of view is the deadlift most effective?  Is it the first couple of inches off the floor or the rest of the movement?  I think in this situation that the little bounce is not all that big of a deal, that's all I'm saying.  Like DC said, was Ronnie's form all that much better when he did his 800lbs dl?  I don't know, I haven't watched it in a long time but I don't remember it being that much better.  Who do you think is getting more out of a movement a guy using super strict form and stuck at using a 35lbs DB or a guy who's used a little body english and can do the same movement using a 65lbs dumbbell?

[sarcasm]

Like I said, I don't think thier form was that bad.  What portion of the deadlift from a BB point of view is the deadlift most effective?  Is it the first couple of inches off the floor or the rest of the movement?  I think in this situation that the little bounce is not all that big of a deal, that's all I'm saying.  Like DC said, was Ronnie's form all that much better when he did his 800lbs dl?  I don't know, I haven't watched it in a long time but I don't remember it being that much better.  Who do you think is getting more out of a movement a guy using super strict form and stuck at using a 35lbs DB or a guy who's used a little body english and can do the same movement using a 65lbs dumbbell?

the bounce really isn't that big of a deal for bb'ers because they're still stimulating a lot of muscle going that heavy for the full ROM, maybe it would be a big deal for a PL'er who is judged on the strictness of his lift.

[natural al]

the bounce really isn't that big of a deal for bb'ers because they're still stimulating a lot of muscle going that heavy for the full ROM, maybe it would be a big deal for a PL'er who is judged on the strictness of his lift.

that's what I've been saying or trying to say.  I think he's getting more benifit from moving 600lbs using a slight bounce at the bottom vs. using 400lbs using meet regulations.

[chris_mason]

Spoken like someone who has never used straps or a belt before.

He would not have gotten 1 rep if He performed it RAW. Notice how the last 2 reps were EASIER then the first.... He was able to bounce the last 2 off the floor. I mean the first rep was a killer he could harely move it , NO WAY he would have gotten even 1 rep if he took off the belt and straps.

Yeah, I don't know shit about powerlifting or lifting in general  ...

Trust me, I know of what I speak on this particular topic.