Author Topic: They're never getting out of gitmo!  (Read 1741 times)

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They're never getting out of gitmo!
« on: October 21, 2006, 10:50:07 PM »
Karen DeYoung / Washington Post | October 20 2006

Moving quickly to implement the bill signed by President Bush this week that authorizes military trials of enemy combatants, the administration has formally notified the U.S. District Court here that it no longer has jurisdiction to consider hundreds of habeas corpus petitions filed by inmates at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba.

In a notice dated Wednesday, the Justice Department listed 196 pending habeas cases, some of which cover groups of detainees. The new Military Commissions Act (MCA), it said, provides that "no court, justice, or judge" can consider those petitions or other actions related to treatment or imprisonment filed by anyone designated as an enemy combatant, now or in the future.

Beyond those already imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay or elsewhere, the law applies to all non-U.S. citizens, including permanent U.S. residents.

The new law already has been challenged as unconstitutional by lawyers representing the petitioners. The issue of detainee rights is likely to reach the Supreme Court for a third time.

Habeas corpus, a Latin term meaning "you have the body," is one of the oldest principles of English and American law. It requires the government to show a legal basis for holding a prisoner. A series of unresolved federal court cases brought against the administration over the last several years by lawyers representing the detainees had left the question in limbo.

Two years ago, in Rasul v. Bush, which gave Guantanamo detainees the right to challenge their detention before a U.S. court, and in this year's Hamdan v. Rumsfeld , the Supreme Court appeared to settle the issue in favor of the detainees. But the new legislation approved by Congress last month, which gives Bush the authority to try detainees before military commissions, included a provision removing judicial review for all habeas claims.

Immediately after Bush signed the act into law Tuesday, the Justice Department sent a letter to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit asserting the new authorities and informing the court that it no longer had jurisdiction over a combined habeas case that had been under consideration since 2004. The U.S. District Court cases, which had been stayed pending the appeals court decision, were similarly invalid, the administration informed that court on Wednesday.

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2006, 11:14:57 PM »
Got any Kleenex?  I'm shedding a tear for alien terrorists who can no longer abuse our court system.  :'( 

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2006, 11:19:11 PM »
hahaha yeah, they're scumbags, I agree.  But they are POWs, right? 

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2006, 11:24:07 PM »
hahaha yeah, they're scumbags, I agree.  But they are POWs, right? 

No.  Try looking up the definition of a POW under the Geneva Convention.  Compare that to the definition of an alien combatant under the Act.   

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2006, 11:28:20 PM »
No.  Try looking up the definition of a POW under the Geneva Convention.  Compare that to the definition of an alien combatant under the Act.  

this is where i disagree.

We considered the Taliban to be a legit govt in Spring of 2001 when we negotiated with them for oil pipeline rights in Afghanistan.  We considered them a legit govt when we paid them 40 million in July 2001 to not sign with an argentinian pipeline competitor instead of our own Unocal.  Suddenly we're at war with them because they protect (argulable- they offered to turn him over), suddenly they lose 'nation' status?

how does this work?  If they're just a terror group, why the hell were we trying to buy afghanistan's drilling rights for 100 years from them?????

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2006, 11:42:29 PM »
this is where i disagree.

We considered the Taliban to be a legit govt in Spring of 2001 when we negotiated with them for oil pipeline rights in Afghanistan.  We considered them a legit govt when we paid them 40 million in July 2001 to not sign with an argentinian pipeline competitor instead of our own Unocal.  Suddenly we're at war with them because they protect (argulable- they offered to turn him over), suddenly they lose 'nation' status?

how does this work?  If they're just a terror group, why the hell were we trying to buy afghanistan's drilling rights for 100 years from them?????

Your question was whether or not they are POWs.  The answer is "no." 

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2006, 11:46:22 PM »
Your question was whether or not they are POWs.  The answer is "no." 

many of them were caught on the battlefield in Afghan., right? 

Why are they not POWs? 

Sure they're pieces of shit, but if they are legitimate citizens of Afghanistan who belonged to a political party called the taliban and fought when bombs started falling, how are they not POWS?

I'm not sympathizing, but I'd hope in these and future wars, our soldiers captured would be treated according to the same high standards (BTW- not an invitation for people to say 'they do it, why can't we?'- we are better than that.)

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2006, 12:00:26 AM »
many of them were caught on the battlefield in Afghan., right? 

Why are they not POWs? 

Sure they're pieces of shit, but if they are legitimate citizens of Afghanistan who belonged to a political party called the taliban and fought when bombs started falling, how are they not POWS?

I'm not sympathizing, but I'd hope in these and future wars, our soldiers captured would be treated according to the same high standards (BTW- not an invitation for people to say 'they do it, why can't we?'- we are better than that.)

Pretty simple.  They are not soldiers in an army that belongs to a country.  Look up the precise definition of alien enemy combatant in the Act and you'll have your answer.  Look up who the Geneva Convention applies to as well.

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2006, 12:11:26 AM »
They are not soldiers in an army that belongs to a country. 

taliban was the ruling body in afghanistan. 

we tried talking them into letting us put in a pipeline a month before.

so, we considered them enough of a legit govt to steal the resources of this soverign nation, but not enough of a legit govt to have to obey Geneva?  You can't have it both ways.  If we can use their permission to usurp the resources of a soverign nation, then you have to afford them the same war rights of a governing body of a soverign nation.

Are you a religious guy?   Many religious people are finding is harder and harder to internally justify torture.  Sure, you can classify people as anything, but these pricks from the sand with AKs are no different from japanesee flying planes packed with TNT in noses, flying into aircraft carriers.  And torture wasn't used then - men who used it were prosecuted.  Must be hard for religious ppl to defend this.  Deep down, you know it's contradictory.

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2006, 12:33:38 AM »
taliban was the ruling body in afghanistan. 

we tried talking them into letting us put in a pipeline a month before.

so, we considered them enough of a legit govt to steal the resources of this soverign nation, but not enough of a legit govt to have to obey Geneva?  You can't have it both ways.  If we can use their permission to usurp the resources of a soverign nation, then you have to afford them the same war rights of a governing body of a soverign nation.

Are you a religious guy?   Many religious people are finding is harder and harder to internally justify torture.  Sure, you can classify people as anything, but these pricks from the sand with AKs are no different from japanesee flying planes packed with TNT in noses, flying into aircraft carriers.  And torture wasn't used then - men who used it were prosecuted.  Must be hard for religious ppl to defend this.  Deep down, you know it's contradictory.


You got your facts mixed up.  We went in after Al Qaeda.  They are terrorists.  Captured terrorists are not POWs. 

And what on earth does my "religion" have to do with the price of tea in China? 

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2006, 12:36:10 AM »
You got your facts mixed up.  We went in after Al Qaeda.  They are terrorists.  Captured terrorists are not POWs. 

No.  We went in after al Q, and to destroy the taliban.  There are plenty of taliban in gitmo.

Do ya see what I'm getting at?  We just reclassified the taliban when it was convenient.  I don't care about them... I think it's a sham we didn't cook them completely in the first 12 months...

When it meant getting a pipeline, we considered them a soverign nation.  When it didn't, we no longer considered them a nation, and put taliban guys in camps. 

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2006, 05:37:03 AM »
My problem is with holding people incarcerated indefinitely without any legal process.

To me, it's not worthy of a modern day western civilization. One of many things that sets us apart from medieval regimes like North Korea, is our justice system.

If these prisoners, detainees or call them whatever you want, are NOT classified as Prisoners Of War... Guess what? Then I think there's something wrong with the "classification".

Lots of people are getting stuck in discussing on what conditions these Gitmo prisoners were captured, and how this effects their status as a POW or not.

Guess what? I think all that is just bollocks.

What it boils down to, is whether or not you believes that we in the modern western world should hold ourselves to higher standards, ie be civilized, or if we should become like the barbarians.

My opinion is clear.

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2006, 08:15:23 AM »
Early on, Bush had to put a gag on these people.  Our connection to Al-Q (we funded them until recently) and Taliban (we negotiated with them for an oil pipeline), shows that our hands are not entirely clean.  When we were just getting into war, we sure didn't need these groups spilling the beans about how close we were to them.

Now... well, it's funny to see people who say they believe in human rights and Geneva, talking about "we NEED to torture and hold them, cause they're so dangerous!"  It's like they're just regurgutating what tv tells them.  Japanese kamikaze were ten times crazier than any idiot taliban field soldier.  We didn't need to torture them, and we didn't need to hold them forever.  Problem is, we also didn't have such pre-war involvement with them.  Seriously, i think many people would be surprised to see how "in bed" we were with them before 9/11.   

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2006, 08:49:55 AM »
Why are you guys so fired up about spending my tax dollars on terrorists who want to abuse our court system?  Screw that.  If a POW wants due process under the Geneva Convention, fine.  But a terrorist?  I don't think so.  We need to do whatever we can to protect American citizens from terrorists. 

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2006, 08:53:19 AM »
Why are you guys so fired up about spending my tax dollars on terrorists who want to abuse our court system?  Screw that.  If a POW wants due process under the Geneva Convention, fine.  But a terrorist?  I don't think so.  We need to do whatever we can to protect American citizens from terrorists. 

What is the difference between a Taliban soldier captured when we invaded Afghan, and a Japanese soldier captured at Iwo Jima?

I don't see you explaining to the class why one is a POW and one is a terrorist.

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2006, 08:55:11 AM »
Early on, Bush had to put a gag on these people.  Our connection to Al-Q (we funded them until recently) and Taliban (we negotiated with them for an oil pipeline), shows that our hands are not entirely clean.  When we were just getting into war, we sure didn't need these groups spilling the beans about how close we were to them.

Now... well, it's funny to see people who say they believe in human rights and Geneva, talking about "we NEED to torture and hold them, cause they're so dangerous!"  It's like they're just regurgutating what tv tells them.  Japanese kamikaze were ten times crazier than any idiot taliban field soldier.  We didn't need to torture them, and we didn't need to hold them forever.  Problem is, we also didn't have such pre-war involvement with them.  Seriously, i think many people would be surprised to see how "in bed" we were with them before 9/11.   

A question,

what difference does any "status" of these captives have to you?

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2006, 08:56:38 AM »
Why are you guys so fired up about spending my tax dollars on terrorists who want to abuse our court system?  Screw that.  If a POW wants due process under the Geneva Convention, fine.  But a terrorist?  I don't think so.  We need to do whatever we can to protect American citizens from terrorists. 

We're on the same page as far as protecting Americans.  IMO, pulling troops out of iraq, putting them on our US borders would keep us safer.  With the exception of 9/11 and 1993 WTC, terrorists have only attacked us overseas.  (and there are tapes showing FBI knew of 1993 and we all know someone called off NORAD dogs on 911).

We pull out, and they'll settle down.  We focus on keeping them out.  I have no problem punishing the bastards who come here to hurt us - hang em high!  But when we are the invading force, it's hard to argue that a guy over there defending his home and captured/shipped to gitmo is a terrorist, ya know?

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2006, 08:58:03 AM »
What is the difference between a Taliban soldier captured when we invaded Afghan, and a Japanese soldier captured at Iwo Jima?

I don't see you explaining to the class why one is a POW and one is a terrorist.

First of all, I'm not sure who "Taliban soldiers" are.  Are we holding any Taliban soldiers?  I generally don't like the straw man arguments.  

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2006, 08:58:15 AM »
A question,
what difference does any "status" of these captives have to you?

Directly, it doesn't.  But I do believe the USA is a great country, and I hate to think we'd ever stoop to levels of the bad guys.  We signed Geneva, we should follow it.  Our own soldiers are captured in conflicts, and I'd hope that their captors would also follow Geneva.  When our govt condones torture, their media is gonna milk it, and inspire pricks over there to do bad things.  

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2006, 08:59:00 AM »
Why are you guys so fired up about spending my tax dollars on terrorists who want to abuse our court system?  Screw that.  If a POW wants due process under the Geneva Convention, fine.  But a terrorist?  I don't think so.  We need to do whatever we can to protect American citizens from terrorists. 

That's a very good point you're making.

I look at it this way:

Anyone captured is a POW, and should ultimately have his/her case tested.

Otherwise, there is no way of knowing if the person is guilty of the crimes he/she is associated with.

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2006, 09:02:02 AM »
Anyone captured is a POW, and should ultimately have his/her case tested.

Otherwise, there is no way of knowing if the person is guilty of the crimes he/she is associated with.

I understand there isn't going to be lots of evidence against many of the guys- you have them wounded in the field holding an AK in their backyard.  Hard to find evidence on them. So it is tricky.  But if we accept Taliban was a legit govt (which you have to, if we were negotiating for their oil), how can we not afford their soldiers Geneva rights?

Let it be clear I am all for justice and punishing the fuckers pulling terrorist attacks.  But if we can invade nations, and categorically remove POW status from people because we feel like it, others can do it to our troops.  And I can't stand to see our guys suffer like that.

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2006, 09:05:22 AM »
Directly, it doesn't.  But I do believe the USA is a great country, and I hate to think we'd ever stoop to levels of the bad guys.  We signed Geneva, we should follow it.  Our own soldiers are captured in conflicts, and I'd hope that their captors would also follow Geneva.  When our govt condones torture, their media is gonna milk it, and inspire pricks over there to do bad things. 

Regardless of what other countries do, the Western Civilization shouldn't be just that, civilized.

That's what makes us the good guys.

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Re: They're never getting out of gitmo!
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2006, 12:45:27 PM »
I'm sure there are AlQ and Taliban at Gitmo.

What saddens me are the many kidnapping victims who are also stuck there.

If any of you do any research on the Northern Alliance and how they rounded up guys to turn over to the USA in exchange for payment, you'll have a better understanding of the probable numbers of innocent guys who had the misfortune to run across a member of the Northern Alliance.
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