Author Topic: Advanced training to failure & beyond  (Read 4767 times)

pumpster

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Advanced training to failure & beyond
« on: January 29, 2007, 03:06:46 PM »
Is essential some of the time, IMO. If you don't push the envelope to try to improve, you're basically only maintaining status quo by training within the bounds of what you can already do.

Here's an article with effective advanced techniques that work. Futuristic techniques developed years ago, ahed of their time that are as good or better than anything out there now. I've been reading training articles since 1973, this is one of the best. Along the lines of Gironda's/Larry Scott's approach, and from the same era. Essentially you'll fry the muscle and feel the burn. Do this to fully realize your genetic potential.

Go to positive failure some of the time at least, usually the last 1 or 2 sets of each exercise. Then throw in negative failure occasionally using partials, one of the most neglected and best techniques. You have to overwhelm the body with added work to force it to adapt through growth. Partials allow you to go beyond normal failure to really blitz the muscles.

As far as the argument that the central nervous system will be overly taxed by going to failure, that theory is unproven, came from HIT. Resting 2-3 days between workouts for the same muscle is sufficient rest, never phased old-school guys who did it.

I realize that this is controversial; some believe the opposite. Stopping short of failure never made sense to me-even if gains are made there's no way to know that they've been maximized by taking it easy.

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In a few minutes they came out with Tony wearing a brown track suit bottom, and brown tank-top. I had last seen Tony exactly four weeks earlier just before he set off for Australia for the I.F.B.B. Professional "Mr. Universe Contest" and I just couldn't believe how much bigger and muscular he was now looking.

"Christ, you look better now than when you entered the contest last month," I said excitedly.

"Yes, I really learned a few things when I was over in Australia. I was training alongside Roy Callender and Dave Draper" Tony casually replied.

"Yes, but you're so much bigger and cut up with it. I've never ever seen your arms look so big," I said.

"Yes, I've gained about an inch on my arms but the body part I'm really pleased with is my chest. I've been able to thicken the upper part quite a bit and I'm really happy with my progress because the "Olympia" is still a good five months away. Last year I had only six weeks preparation for the contest and I wasn't at my best", Tony replied.

"Are you gong to train your chest today?" I asked.

"What do you do first?" I said. "Well, at this particular stage in my training I'm trying to build as much into my muscles as I can and the only way this can be done is by handling very, heavy heavy weights in pretty good style. So we'll start out with four or five sets of heavy bench presses."

"What about the theory that the bench press is not a good chest exercise, Tony?"

"Well,,, I've been using the exercise for the past twenty years or so and it's done me no harm. It's always good to include benches in your routine when you're training for size, because you can use a lot of weight," he replied.

Tony used a grip on the bar that allowed his forearms to remain perpendicular throughout most of the movement. He used only about 150 pounds for his first set which he called his 'warm-up' set. On his second set with about 220 pounds I began noticing something about his exercise style that really brought home to me the difference between a super-star bodybuilder, and the ordinary 'run of the mill' muscle-head. That difference was simply that they (Tony) have the ability, through experience, to completely dominate the particular muscle being exercises, by the use of superior muscular concentration. As Tony performed his ultra-strict bench presses, I was reminded of a recent article on the delt workout of the great U.S.A. bodybuilder Pat Neve which read as follows: 'Never works out in a gym with over 200 members, and none have been able to comprehend the true secret. They all see him work-out as they try to copy what he does, and yet they never get the same results.'

I could see that Tony was completely involved in the movement to the point of actually having his mind inside his muscles! On everything I saw. Tony do that day he used a false grip (yes, even on his dumbbell work). His reps were very, very smooth, methodical and faster than average, with absolutely no pause at either the top or bottom of the exercise. Every pressing exercise was done without a lockout, and every set was followed by partial burn reps to failure. this is how Tony explains it, "I use a false grip on everything but curls, because I feel that when you consciously grip a bar or dumbbell you lose a lot of the tension into the forearms and upper arms. In bodybuilding you must create as much tension into the particular muscle as you can, so a false grip is a must for me. I've always used a fairly fast training style and non-lock exercises, because I do not want the muscle to rest at all throughout a particular set.

"It's much easier to follow a slower style of training combined with lockouts, but the muscle won't feel it as much."

"As far as partial reps or 'burns' are concerned, I think that these are one of the real 'secrets' of successful bodybuilding. When I cannot perform another full rep by myself I continue to perform as many half or quarter burn reps to total and absolute failure and if I can't feel a deep down burning feeling into the muscle at the conclusion of the set then I simply will not gain and that's a fact."

Tony's theories were put into practice during another three sets of bench presses using increasing weight each set. On his fifth and final set, using about 320 pounds, Tony fought like hell to perform a beautiful set of eight reps, and as his ninth rep looked like failure the ever helpful hands of Trevor gave a slight touch to the bar that enabled Tony to squeeze out another three forced reps.

As many burn reps as possible followed, and it was clear by the expression on his face that Tony Emmott was indeed in obvious gain.

AS Tony climbed off the bench he looked as though he had been inflated with air. The whole of his chest, shoulders and arms were a bright pink and swollen beyond belief.

"That's what the bench press can do for you," proclaimed Tony.

As soon as Trevor had completed his last set of bench presses they both set things up for their second exercise which was barbell incline presses done on a higher than usual angle of about 45 degrees.

Every time I have tried to do this particular exercise I have always ended up with sore front deltoids and absolutely no upper pectoral congestion whatsoever, so I was interested as to how he would perform the exercise.

Once again he used the false grip and smoothly pressed the bar to about three quarters of the way up. On the way down, however, he deliberately pulled his elbows back and gave his chest a terrific stretch. This must have been difficult to do because, remember, he was still using maximum weights and each of his four sets showed and increase in weight.

Tony's final chest exercise was an unusual combination of incline dumbbell flying , combined with incline dumbbell pressing using the same dumbbells.

He lay down o the 45-degree bench and held two dumbbells at arms length, with his palms facing towards the front as if he was holding a barbell. From this position the dumbbells were lowered outside and below shoulder level with slightly unlocked elbows. From this position the dumbbells were then squeezed together above his face and back to starting position. I have never seen anyone else perform this way but I've never seen cuts and striations pop up all over the place during the performance of the exercise, either!

When Tony couldn't do another rep in his usual immaculate style he began to press the dumbbells in a fast short rep style to further bombard his upper pecs. When it looked as though he was struggling through excessive upper chest congestion, Trevor quite cleverly applied pressure to Tony's elbows which enabled him to force out more reps and it was now obvious by the look on his face that Tony Emmott was now right inside the 'pain barrier'.

Tony's chest was swollen huge with veins and striations popping out everywhere. This concluded his chest workout.

davie

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Re: Training to failure & beyond
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2007, 04:28:48 AM »
God post, great article, v interesting.

davie
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dontknowit

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Re: Training to failure & beyond
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2007, 04:49:45 AM »
The article was very gay,
but it contains some useful information for the youth under us. Old-school gyms could have taught you that. Their are different kind of trainingsmethods that make their revival once in a while, you have to master them all and understand the benefits from all styles. The ultimatie workout doesn't exist.

pumpster

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Re: Training to failure & beyond
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2007, 07:32:18 AM »
The article was very gay,
but it contains some useful information for the youth under us. Old-school gyms could have taught you that. Their are different kind of trainingsmethods that make their revival once in a while, you have to master them all and understand the benefits from all styles. The ultimatie workout doesn't exist.

Useless post boardering on trolling. Gay? LOL It sounds like you have issues with your sexuality. This is one of the best articles you'll ever read on advanced, effective training, but your attitude's too negative for you to realize it. Stick to content instead of bitching.

Also work on grammar, that's another problem. It's "there", not "their". That's not a small mistake.

davie

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Re: Training to failure & beyond
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2007, 07:37:09 AM »
I think the article was good, and gave another example of how to put a training/intensity technique into practice!!

davie
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dontknowit

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Re: Training to failure & beyond
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2007, 06:44:35 AM »
...Stick to content instead of bitching.
What's to say about the content?

The method has been popularised various times in the passed and there are still people using this method as their main routine. The big problem with it routine is that it's very harsh for your CNS. You have to have plenty of rest to recover and very little stress.

pumpster

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Re: Training to failure & beyond
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2007, 06:59:36 AM »

The method has been popularised various times in the passed and there are still people using this method as their main routine. The big problem with it routine is that it's very harsh for your CNS. You have to have plenty of rest to recover and very little stress.
The theory about running down the CNS comes from HIT and is unproven. Others feel and have used more frequent training for years without any issues, especially if marathon volume workouts are avoided. Some believe that more than 3 days rest between workouts allows the muscles to start sliding backwards.

The point is that the CNS argument's not established, isn't a particularly strong one IMO.

dontknowit

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Re: Advanced training to failure & beyond
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2007, 10:45:58 AM »
??? It's a basic principle,
the higher the intensity, the higher the stress,

and everybody reacts different on stress.
http://www.fi.edu/brain/stress.htm That's why it ain't suitable for everybody.

jpm101

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Re: Advanced training to failure & beyond
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2007, 11:19:58 AM »
Understanding the purpose and function(s) of the Central Nervous System (CNS) can help anyone know how it does influence muscle recovery. And aid in future muscle tissue growth and strength. This affect is far from theory. More as common knowledge as how the body adapts and recovers from different stress loads. Basic stuff really. The CNS affect on training (or adapting) has been around much, much longer than any relationship it may, or may not, have with the HIT program. Medical archives support this fact. And actually, a muscle will not "start sliding backwards" from more than 3 days rest. The given average period is from 10 to 14 days before a muscles trained state begins to return to a pre-trained state.

Failure (going to) should not be encouraged in all workouts. There are short training cycles where it could be applied. Like Drop sets, SS's, Tri sets, giant sets, pre-exhausr, etc. If so, than only one muscle group should be worked with-in a given training week. Good Luck.
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davie

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Re: Advanced training to failure & beyond
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2007, 11:45:23 AM »

I think its cool that peopl have diff views on training but its almost funny that alot of the views here are so diff from each other!!

davie
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Knives

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Re: Advanced training to failure & beyond
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2007, 11:52:24 AM »
It makes obvious sense to go to failure when you're doing low volume, like Max-OT, but what about High Volume Training?  Should one just take the last set to failure?

davie

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Re: Advanced training to failure & beyond
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2007, 11:57:32 AM »
It makes obvious sense to go to failure when you're doing low volume, like Max-OT, but what about High Volume Training?  Should one just take the last set to failure?

I think high volume trainers should stay away from failure, they are two differnet techniques and should be kept apart.

davie
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jpm101

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Re: Advanced training to failure & beyond
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2007, 12:22:25 PM »
Failure should be directed to lower volume training (not those high volume,2 1/2 or more hours  endless set's things). Where the workout's are brief and to the point. Otherwise your just doing manual labor.

Davie: How else are we (me included) going to find the truth, if more than one issue about training is not presented? The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle for all of us. Good Luck.
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pumpster

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Re: Advanced training to failure & beyond
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2007, 01:55:57 PM »
Davie: How else are we (me included) going to find the truth, if more than one issue about training is not presented? The truth usually lies somewhere in the middle for all of us. Good Luck.

We actually agree on this. All should be taken in without animus (hint).

I hope Davie was kidding, the whole value of forums is to share info. In fact he's one of the first to ask for input. To find it amusing to see different points of view is rather odd in light of this.

As far as high volume, IMO one set per exercise can be tried to failure. The more failure, the less sets are required to exhaust the muscle - there's really no need for high volume if the intensity's good, which it should be. To do endless pumping sets without intensity might or might not work but seems artificial to me. Even high volume proponents like Schwarzenegger suggest they're going to failure sometimes.

Knives

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Re: Advanced training to failure & beyond
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2007, 02:48:21 PM »
We actually agree on this. All should be taken in without animus (hint).

I hope Davie was kidding, the whole value of forums is to share info. In fact he's one of the first to ask for input. To find it amusing to see different points of view is rather odd in light of this.

As far as high volume, IMO one set per exercise can be tried to failure. The more failure, the less sets are required to exhaust the muscle - there's really no need for high volume if the intensity's good, which it should be. To do endless pumping sets without intensity might or might not work but seems artificial to me. Even high volume proponents like Schwarzenegger suggest they're going to failure sometimes.

how much volume do you recommend?

pumpster

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Re: Advanced training to failure & beyond
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2007, 02:57:11 PM »
how much volume do you recommend?

Just my opinion, i've gone for typical volume training back in the 70s to moderate sets - 7-9 for smaller muscles, 10-12 sets for larger muscles. That assumes good intensity, which means positive failure on most/all sets, and negative failure on the last set of each exercise. After warmup, 3-4 good sets per exercise for the most important exercises, then 2 sets on finishing exercises.

It's just a continuum - if you're willing to work to the extreme, you can compress the work into very few HIT sets. If HIT's too extreme as it is for most, do more sets while retaining good intensity = moderate sets. If you do volume, inevitably you're pacing yourself, leaving less energy for great intensity.

The only value i can see in doing high volume is greater calorie expenditure, which can also be achieved by cardio. High volume does seem to have an advantage in refinement for contests.

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Re: Advanced training to failure & beyond
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2007, 12:03:02 AM »
good stuff, pumpster, thanks for sharing

davie

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Re: Advanced training to failure & beyond
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2007, 02:18:08 AM »
We actually agree on this. All should be taken in without animus (hint).

I hope Davie was kidding, the whole value of forums is to share info. In fact he's one of the first to ask for input. To find it amusing to see different points of view is rather odd in light of this.

As far as high volume, IMO one set per exercise can be tried to failure. The more failure, the less sets are required to exhaust the muscle - there's really no need for high volume if the intensity's good, which it should be. To do endless pumping sets without intensity might or might not work but seems artificial to me. Even high volume proponents like Schwarzenegger suggest they're going to failure sometimes.

Yes i was kidding pumpster, you should kow me better than that by now. I think the hole idea and purpose of a forum  like this is to have differnt opinions and views thrown at u from different trainers. If we all trained the same way ther would be no point asking people advice!

If i was to find anything amusing it would be that some are so set in stone that they believe theor methods of training to be the only path for all trainer....case in point the mentzer arnold topic we had on the go which u urself participated in.

Other than that, i believe in open discussion, as u are right, i have come here b4 with ideas etc that i have put together myself, and then asked for fellow getbiggers to critique and comment on?!

davie
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