Author Topic: Countries that allow homosexual people to serve openly in thier military  (Read 25956 times)

OzmO

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation_and_military_service

    * Argentina[1]
    * Australia
    * Austria
    * The Bahamas
    * Belgium
    * Bulgaria[2]
    * Canada
    * Colombia
    * Croatia[2]
    * Czech Republic
    * Denmark
    * Estonia [3]
    * Finland
    * France
    * Germany
    * Hungary
    * Ireland
    * Israel
    * Italy[2]
    * Lithuania
    * Luxembourg
    * The Netherlands
    * New Zealand
    * Norway
    * Peru
    * Poland
    * Portugal[2]
    * Romania[4]
    * Slovenia
    * South Africa
    * Spain
    * Sweden
    * Switzerland
    * Taiwan
    * Thailand
    * United Kingdom


So umm,  are these armies completely trenched in "low moral"?   Or are some people still just too pig headed and homophobic?

BayGBM

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Bigotry is not just irrational, it is also self serving.   >:(

U.S. Military Discharged Fewer Gay Personnel in 2006
By Ann Scott Tyson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, March 13, 2007; 5:26 PM

The number of homosexuals discharged from the U.S. military under the "don't ask, don't tell" policy dropped significantly in 2006, according to Pentagon figures released today, continuing a sharp decline since the Afghanistan and Iraq conflicts began and leading critics to charge that the military is retaining gay and lesbian personnel because it needs them in a time of war.

According to preliminary Pentagon data, 612 homosexuals were discharged in fiscal 2006, fewer than half the 1,227 who were discharged in 2001. On average, more than 1,000 service members were discharged each year from 1997 to 2001, but in the past five years that average has fallen below 730.

"It is hypocritical that the Pentagon seems to retain gay and lesbian service members when they need them most, and fires them when it believes they are expendable," said Steve E. Ralls, a spokesperson for the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, a nonprofit group that opposes the policy.

Marine Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, sparked an outcry among gay and lesbian advocacy groups on Monday when he said he considered homosexual acts "immoral" and therefore opposed lifting the "don't ask, don't tell" rule and allowing homosexuals to serve openly. "We should not condone immoral acts," Pace told the Chicago Tribune in an interview.

Pace said today it would have been better to refrain from offering personal opinions. "I should have focused more on my support of the policy and less on my personal moral views," he said in a statement, noting that the policy itself "does not make a judgment about the morality of individual acts."

Pace drew fire today from congressional Democrats, who have recently renewed a push to repeal the policy, as well as from some Republicans and gay advocacy groups.

"General Pace's statements aren't in line with either the majority of the public or the military," said Rep. Martin T. Meehan (D-Mass.), who last month reintroduced legislation to repeal the policy on grounds that it is unfair, expensive and harmful to military readiness.

"We are turning away good troops to enforce a costly policy of discrimination," said a statement by Meehan, whose legislation has more than 100 co-sponsors and is supported by several prominent retired generals, including a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, retired Army Gen. John Shalikashvili.

Sen. John W. Warner (R-Va.) told ABC news today that he disagreed "strongly" with Pace's view that homosexuality is immoral.

More than 10,870 military personnel have been discharged under the policy since it was signed into law by President Clinton in 1993. The law requires that gay service members keep their sexual orientation private and do not engage in homosexual acts, while barring commanders from asking about sexual orientation.

The dismissed personnel have included Arabic speakers and other linguists, intelligence experts and medical personnel -- all of whom are in short supply. In 2005, for example, 49 medical personnel were discharged.

"The military can't afford to lose these people, dozens and dozens of well-trained men and women who would ordinarily be doing their job," said Ralls. He said the reduction in discharges since 2001 indicates that the military is applying its policy selectively now because the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have lowered support for joining the military among youths and their parents.

There are an estimated 65,000 lesbians and gays serving in the military today, according to census-based research by the Williams Project at the University of California, Los Angeles, cited by Ralls. He said the group also estimated there are 1 million gay veterans in the United States.

ribonucleic

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At least you didn't forget Poland.




OzmO

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I just want to hear the "out of date" argument that gays in the military would ruin moral.....


anyone?


you fags.   ;)   

ieffinhatecardio

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I think MM69 has stated that openly gay soldiers would get killed and I tend to believe him.

Coming out while serving I don't think is a good idea. Considering the mindset of many in the military I think the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy is the best compromise right now.

ribonucleic

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I just want to hear the "out of date" argument that gays in the military would ruin moral..... 

militarymuscle has addressed this extensively...

If I understand his arguments, the troops would be too busy stigmatizing and hiding their genitals from the queers to properly focus on securing our energy future. I mean... spreading democracy.

Hope this helps.

ribonucleic

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I think MM69 has stated that openly gay soldiers would get killed and I tend to believe him.

Openly black people used to get killed in the South too. Prejudice sucks.

Have the first asshole who kills a fellow service member because they're gay executed by firing squad. And the second.

I think that problem will then go away very quickly.

Dos Equis

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I just want to hear the "out of date" argument that gays in the military would ruin moral.....


anyone?


you fags.   ;)   

Why are you asking for an argument you will never agree with?  :)

Headhunter has said the same thing.  I have the same opinion, though I'm not sure it would "ruin morale."  Adverse affect, yes.  Funny how the active duty and former soldiers have the same opinion.  Go figure.   :)

One of the questions I've had about this since Clinton first brought it up was what you do with the living and shower arrangements.  Men and women who stay in "the barracks" basically live on top of each other.  I don't know a lot about the intricacies of male homosexuals, but wouldn't there be privacy issues with some male homosexuals and heterosexuals?   

ieffinhatecardio

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Openly black people used to get killed in the South too. Prejudice sucks.

Have the first asshole who kills a fellow service member because they're gay executed by firing squad. And the second.

I think that problem will then go away very quickly.

Off the top of my head I can think of two servicemen that were killed by fellow servicemen because they were gay. It happens now with the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy what would happen if homosexuals were allowed to come out?

The death penalty idea is a good one but would it be enforced considering that Military brass doesn't want homosexuals to serve?

ribonucleic

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The death penalty idea is a good one but would it be enforced considering that Military brass doesn't want homosexuals to serve?

The military fought tooth and nail against letting the "coloreds" in too, using all the same excuses they're trotting out now - morale, violence, etc. And for a long time, it wasn't pretty. [see James Gould Cozzen's Guard of Honor]

But Truman and his successors forced the pill down their throats. And as officers were increasingly made to understand that their careers were dependent on making sure that nothing embarrassing became public, they found ways to keep tensions at manageable levels.

And once the crackers were forced to deal with black people as human beings rather than as stereotyped bogyemen, and watched them bleed red in combat like everyone else, things got better.


OzmO

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Why are you asking for an argument you will never agree with?  :)

i just want to hear the argument, to see if it carries any weight, agreeing with it is another matter.

Headhunter has said the same thing.  I have the same opinion, though I'm not sure it would "ruin morale."  Adverse affect, yes.  Funny how the active duty and former soldiers have the same opinion.  Go figure.   :)
 

actually it's not funny at all.  I wouldn;t expect people in a "don't ask don't tell" military to openly support gays in the military s well as someone who thinks of it as you do.

Will it have an adverse affect?  Initially yes.  Remember who is leading our military?  people who are 40 to 70 years old who grew up in a generation and a society that had little understanding and or tolerance of gays.  But as time goes on, it will integrate, soldiers will adjust.


One of the questions I've had about this since Clinton first brought it up was what you do with the living and shower arrangements.  Men and women who stay in "the barracks" basically live on top of each other.  I don't know a lot about the intricacies of male homosexuals, but wouldn't there be privacy issues with some male homosexuals and heterosexuals?   



how do you think all these other countries do it?  We aren't breaking new ground here.  Britain been doing it.....  Germany, Australia, etc....

Dos Equis

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how do you think all these other countries do it?  We aren't breaking new ground here.  Britain been doing it.....  Germany, Australia, etc....

I don't know. 

Al-Gebra

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WTF is "ruining moral"?  Ruining morale? Or ruining morals (as in morality)? 

I have no problem w people of any orientation serving in the military, as long as every one knows that the job comes first . . .

The bottom line for most dudes is that they would not want to share tents/bathroom facilities w  gay dudes.  But that would change once they were sure that no funny business was going to happen.  unfortunately, a lot of funny business happens in the army (b/w men and women for starters . . . what else can you expect w a bunch of young people?), so that would just be tempting the devil. 

OzmO

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I don't know. 

well obviously they are doing something that is working just fine.  American arm forces can't transition and do the same thing?

Al-Gebra

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well obviously they are doing something that is working just fine. 

you have any experience w foreign armed forces? cultures?   

OzmO

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you have any experience w foreign armed forces? cultures?   

no, not really.  the Brits, Germany, France and Israel have problems?

but i do have experience with Filipino culture.  I lived their for 9 years.

Gays aren't big deal there,  no one cares.

ribonucleic

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Gays aren't big deal there,  no one cares.

What? You mean boys kissing is actually... unimportant?!

Someone sure got their facts wrong on this one!

Al-Gebra

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no, not really.  the Brits, Germany, France and Israel have problems?

but i do have experience with Filipino culture.  I lived their for 9 years.

Gays aren't big deal there,  no one cares.

In our culture being gay is a big deal, so it's going to be a big deal in the military . . . it might be less of a big deal in the future, but who knows.

The brits have a more relaxed attitude towards homosexuality too . . .

Perhaps the express policy of the Israeli army is pro gay, but I would never want to be openly gay in that army.  The officers I've met have a serious case of "macho" going on . . . :-\


OzmO

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In our culture being gay is a big deal, so it's going to be a big deal in the military . . . it might be less of a big deal in the future, but who knows.

The brits have a more relaxed attitude towards homosexuality too . . .

Perhaps the express policy of the Israeli army is pro gay, but I would never want to be openly gay in that army.  The officers I've met have a serious case of "macho" going on . . . :-\



i was born in America, my dad was in the military that's hwy i spent time int he P.I., 

I realize our culture is a bit behind the times, perhaps too many thumpers?   ;D

Anyways, it will be at least 2 more generations before we progress to the point people realize that it is something gays need to take up with GOD when they die and it's not our business what they do, but at the same time they shouldn't be discriminated against.

Al-Gebra

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What? You mean boys kissing is actually... unimportant?!

Someone sure got their facts wrong on this one!

I'm glad the topic is giving you the opportunity to be witty . . .

But your average GI isn't going to react w much wit when he finds out that he's in a platoon w some dude who feels empowered to kiss another dude b/c of legislation.

I'm not saying that the GI will have the "right" reaction, but this is a matter that can't be solved just by changing the army's policy.  Fixing this problem needs a far more comprehensive solution.

tu_holmes

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Why are you asking for an argument you will never agree with?  :)

Headhunter has said the same thing.  I have the same opinion, though I'm not sure it would "ruin morale."  Adverse affect, yes.  Funny how the active duty and former soldiers have the same opinion.  Go figure.   :)

One of the questions I've had about this since Clinton first brought it up was what you do with the living and shower arrangements.  Men and women who stay in "the barracks" basically live on top of each other.  I don't know a lot about the intricacies of male homosexuals, but wouldn't there be privacy issues with some male homosexuals and heterosexuals?   


Well, if you don't ask or tell, then there's already a gay person staring at your junk in the shower... so what's the difference... the fact that you know it?

I mean, if they wanna stare at my stuff... I understand... It looks good to both hot chicks and gay guys... They (They being the gay men you retards) just can't have any of it.

OzmO

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I'm glad the topic is giving you the opportunity to be witty . . .

But your average GI isn't going to react w much wit when he finds out that he's in a platoon w some dude who feels empowered to kiss another dude b/c of legislation.

I'm not saying that the GI will have the "right" reaction, but this is a matter that can't be solved just by changing the army's policy.  Fixing this problem needs a far more comprehensive solution.

"don't ask don't tell" is the first in a progression towards this end. 

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An argument I have heard goes something like this:

Person A and person B get it on and fall in love. However, they are both in the same platoon/sqaud/whatever and they are in combat.  Instead of following orders and doing their duty they go out of their way to look out after each other, or to keep each other out of harm. 

This would be particularly troublesome if a squad leader or whatever was banging some private.
Valhalla awaits.

OzmO

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An argument I have heard goes something like this:

Person A and person B get it on and fall in love. However, they are both in the same platoon/sqaud/whatever and they are in combat.  Instead of following orders and doing their duty they go out of their way to look out after each other, or to keep each other out of harm. 

This would be particularly troublesome if a squad leader or whatever was banging some private.

well ok,  good point,  how does it work in those other countries?

The UK is a pretty competent fighting force, how do they deal with it?

Personally i think training and discipline take over in times like that combined with fear of your first sergeant, but that's just speculation on my part.

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So if a GI wants to stop risking his ass in Baghdad for the 9/11 lie or the Bush oil machine, all he has to do is start playing grabass and Peetie Pacey will send them home?