Countries that allow homosexual people to serve openly in thier military

[OzmO]

An argument I have heard goes something like this:

Person A and person B get it on and fall in love. However, they are both in the same platoon/sqaud/whatever and they are in combat.  Instead of following orders and doing their duty they go out of their way to look out after each other, or to keep each other out of harm. 

This would be particularly troublesome if a squad leader or whatever was banging some private.

actually it's no different than your good friend whom you've been through many  battels with.  what's the difference?

[tu_holmes]

So if a GI wants to stop risking his ass in Baghdad for the 9/11 lie or the Bush oil machine, all he has to do is start playing grabass and Peetie Pacey will send them home?

Well, yeah, but if he does, by the time he's discharge, he may be dead from "friendly fire".

[ribonucleic]

So if a GI wants to stop risking his ass in Baghdad for the 9/11 lie or the Bush oil machine, all he has to do is start playing grabass and Peetie Pacey will send them home?

It certainly looks that way. The firing of the Arab translators shows that, like Hitler, we're willing to pursue ideological purity even to the detriment of our war effort.

[militarymuscle69]

I think MM69 has stated that openly gay soldiers would get killed and I tend to believe him.

Coming out while serving I don't think is a good idea. Considering the mindset of many in the military I think the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy is the best compromise right now.

never said that, and don't believe that. Gays would harm mission effectiveness though, and I have done several "projects" that have proved so.

[militarymuscle69]

well obviously they are doing something that is working just fine.  American arm forces can't transition and do the same thing?

Your argument that other countries are doing it carries no weight. Those militaries aren't on the same level as us. We are the most effective military for a reason.

I'll play devil's advocate for a minute. We let gay men/women serve. They will have to be abstinent during their enlistment because article 125 of the UCMJ makes sodomy illegal. The military has a long history of not accepting immoral bahavior (based on the bible's definition of immoral) and why should it change now? We don't condone adultery, stealing, murder (killing in war is not murder) or lying. Why condone homosexuality? If you want to be gay, sorry but you have to accept that you won't be able to be in the Army openly.

[Cavalier22]

actually it's no different than your good friend whom you've been through many  battels with.  what's the difference?

Your life partner and mate vs a comrade?  I dont know, I've never been in combat or had a gay lover. Just telling you what I heard from a vietnam vet on the radio awhile back. 

[ieffinhatecardio]

never said that, and don't believe that. Gays would harm mission effectiveness though, and I have done several "projects" that have proved so.

You're right, I'm sorry. It was HeadHunter not you that said it.

[OzmO]

Your argument that other countries are doing it carries no weight. Those militaries aren't on the same level as us. We are the most effective military for a reason.

I'll play devil's advocate for a minute. We let gay men/women serve. They will have to be abstinent during their enlistment because article 125 of the UCMJ makes sodomy illegal. The military has a long history of not accepting immoral bahavior (based on the bible's definition of immoral) and why should it change now? We don't condone adultery, stealing, murder (killing in war is not murder) or lying. Why condone homosexuality? If you want to be gay, sorry but you have to accept that you won't be able to be in the Army openly.

So we are an effective military because we don;t allow gays?  That's an argument that carries no weight.  The idea that gay in "a" military would make it less effective is proven wroing by the British military who's competence has been well demonstrated.

[OzmO]

Your life partner and mate vs a comrade?  I dont know, I've never been in combat or had a gay lover. Just telling you what I heard from a vietnam vet on the radio awhile back. 

haven't we read this a hundreds times in true life books about war?  Close friendships in war and how they manifest themselves in combat?  THe soldier ignores orders to save his friend? 

You gotta remember the generation your friend is from.

[OzmO]

never said that, and don't believe that. Gays would harm mission effectiveness though, and I have done several "projects" that have proved so.

my question is then,  why isn't it happening with these other countries?  Israel and England have very competent millitaries.   

I do agree, it would harm mission effectiveness initially because of several factors: 

1.  The amount of 40 to 70 year old officers and NCO's who are from a generation of homosexual intolerance, fear and lack of understanding. 

2.  There are always problems in any large transition

3.  The "moral majority" or the religious right would try an hamper any progress through a vicious PR campaign.

[militarymuscle69]

my question is then,  why isn't it happening with these other countries?  Israel and England have very competent millitaries.   

I do agree, it would harm mission effectiveness initially because of several factors: 

1.  The amount of 40 to 70 year old officers and NCO's who are from a generation of homosexual intolerance, fear and lack of understanding. 

2.  There are always problems in any large transition

3.  The "moral majority" or the religious right would try an hamper any progress through a vicious PR campaign.

You realize the percentage of 40-70 year olds in the military is in the single digits? That is the frustrating part of trying to argue with you. YOU BRING ZERO FACTS!!!!!!!! There are 120 members in my shop today from E-5 through 0-5. You know how many 40+? 1, so try again fool. The majority of america thinks being gay is immoral. not just 40+

[Dos Equis]

well obviously they are doing something that is working just fine.  American arm forces can't transition and do the same thing?

How do you know it is working just fine? 

[OzmO]

You realize the percentage of 40-70 year olds in the military is in the single digits? That is the frustrating part of trying to argue with you. YOU BRING ZERO FACTS!!!!!!!! There are 120 members in my shop today from E-5 through 0-5. You know how many 40+? 1, so try again fool. The majority of america thinks being gay is immoral. not just 40+

Your true character showing it's self again huh?

Sorry,  i needed to clarify and i wasn't clear, the leadership in the military is 40 to 70 years olds.

So basically is that all you have?   

You can't form anymore of an argument?

[OzmO]

How do you know it is working just fine? 

Because they would have changed their policy if it was that much of a problem.

And the opponents to "open policy" would have used issues in these mililtaries as an example and reason not to have an open policy.   They haven't.

[militarymuscle69]

Because they would have changed their policy if it was that much of a problem.

And the opponents to "open policy" would have used issues in these mililtaries as an example and reason not to have an open policy.   They haven't.

Because Europe isn't America. Europe is majority liberal and accept gayness. As a result the average woman bears only 1.4 children in eurpoe as opposed to 2.2 in America. If you knew any facts you would know that because of this the death rate is exceeding the birth rate which it doesn't take a mathmatician ot realize the end of a civilization is on the horizon. Americans are conservative, and hence the gays in the military isn't comparable to england because of the vast difference in mindset and beliefs. FOOL

[militarymuscle69]

Your true character showing it's self again huh?

Sorry,  i needed to clarify and i wasn't clear, the leadership in the military is 40 to 70 years olds.

So basically is that all you have?   

You can't form anymore of an argument?

And you are still wrong in the age of the leadership, It isn't the 1% of 40-70 year olds that don't want the gays here, it is the 99% 18-39 year olds that don't want them here!!

[OzmO]

Because Europe isn't America. Europe is majority liberal and accept gayness. As a result the average woman bears only 1.4 children in eurpoe as opposed to 2.2 in America. If you knew any facts you would know that because of this the death rate is exceeding the birth rate which it doesn't take a mathmatician ot realize the end of a civilization is on the horizon. Americans are conservative, and hence the gays in the military isn't comparable to england because of the vast difference in mindset and beliefs. FOOL

her we go again.

Are you always like this?

 

So you are saying more people are dying in Europe than are being born?   Can you show proof of this?  And is this because of the "liberal" attitude towards gays?

[OzmO]

And you are still wrong in the age of the leadership, It isn't the 1% of 40-70 year olds that don't want the gays here, it is the 99% 18-39 year olds that don't want them here!!

OK,  let me get even more specific   Senior NCO's and Lt. Colonels and above.

[militarymuscle69]

OK,  let me get even more specific   Senior NCO's and Lt. Colonels and above.

Yes I am always like this. And still your point isn't proven because that is only 1% of the total active force. What about the other 99%?

[militarymuscle69]

her we go again.

Are you always like this?

 

So you are saying more people are dying in Europe than are being born?   Can you show proof of this?  And is this because of the "liberal" attitude towards gays?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4768644.stm


"Europe's working-age population is shrinking as fertility rates decline. In a fit of gloom, one German minister recently warned of the country "turning the light out" if its birth rate did not pick up.

[Dos Equis]

Because they would have changed their policy if it was that much of a problem.

And the opponents to "open policy" would have used issues in these mililtaries as an example and reason not to have an open policy.   They haven't.

Awfully big assumption Ozmo. 

[OzmO]

Yes I am always like this. And still your point isn't proven because that is only 1% of the total active force. What about the other 99%?

back to my point, then, the leadership, has to change before the rest of them do.  Because out leadership is somewhat older and from a different generation, it would harder to integrate gays openly into the military.

Remember, i don;t think it's a good idea or possble we do it right away,  all i;m saying is that in a couple of generation those stereotypes will disappear

[militarymuscle69]

back to my point, then, the leadership, has to change before the rest of them do.  Because out leadership is somewhat older and from a different generation, it would harder to integrate gays openly into the military.

Remember, i don;t think it's a good idea or possble we do it right away,  all i;m saying is that in a couple of generation those stereotypes will disappear

You are wrong, they won't dissapear. PC Liberals will force it on the majority of the public. Conservatives tend to keep to themselves while Libs want to force shit on everyone.

[Camel Jockey]

The bottom line for most dudes is that they would not want to share tents/bathroom facilities w  gay dudes.  But that would change once they were sure that no funny business was going to happen.  unfortunately, a lot of funny business happens in the army (b/w men and women for starters . . . what else can you expect w a bunch of young people?), so that would just be tempting the devil. 

Right on the money. I have a gay friend but I wouldn't want to shower with him. If we allow gays to openly serve these days then we'd have to segregate them from the straight soliders.

[OzmO]

You are wrong, they won't dissapear. PC Liberals will force it on the majority of the public. Conservatives tend to keep to themselves while Libs want to force shit on everyone.

Sure they will, look how far we've come in regards to homosexuality in just 20 years.   Look how far we've come regarding racism in just 50 years. 

Do you realize that White American Doctors actually believed Black people lacked the brain capacity to fly air planes prior to WW2 and it look some whacked out liberals to push this idea on these people?

It's about the progression of a society, not the proliferation of a political ideology.

Conservatives and liberal balance each other.........  going too far one way or the other isn't good.