What would people say if this happened?

[militarymuscle69]

This is part of the problems now.  If we could do what Saddam did to control his country by ruthlessly squashing any resistance we wouldn't have to worry about IED's or insurgents either.

I don't know if I would compare us to saddam...

[Tre]

LMAO, my whole point is that day after day you guys come in here and say the military sucks that we can't beet a bunch of rag heads. Well if we were allowed to use our full force there would be no Iran/Iraq left...It's the politics of war that keep us from suceeding, not the military

You overestimate our military 'might'.

You underestimate the will of the people.

[Decker]

LMAO, my whole point is that day after day you guys come in here and say the military sucks that we can't beet a bunch of rag heads. Well if we were allowed to use our full force there would be no Iran/Iraq left...It's the politics of war that keep us from suceeding, not the military

I would think it would be humanitarian concerns that would restrict your 'final solution.'

[militarymuscle69]

You overestimate our military 'might'.

You underestimate the will of the people.

LOL, you are crazy

[OzmO]

I don't know if I would compare us to saddam...

I'm not.  I'm just saying that Saddam dealt with his resistance much more effectively than us.

[militarymuscle69]

I would think it would be humanitarian concerns that would restrict your 'final solution.'

I wonder if people were worried about humanitarian issues when we dropped bombs on Hirishimo and Nagasaki

[Decker]

I wonder if people were worried about humanitarian issues when we dropped bombs on Hirishimo and Nagasaki

Eisenhower, Nimitz (cmdr of the pacific fleet), MacArthur, Adm. Leahy (pres. chief of staff) Gen. Spaatz (cmdr. of the Air Force in the Pacific) Sec. Bard (undersecretary to the Navy) and a lot more all thought that the bombings were not necessary.

There was no swell of popular opposition/support b/c the bombings were top secret.

[militarymuscle69]

Eisenhower, Nimitz (cmdr of the pacific fleet), MacArthur, Adm. Leahy (pres. chief of staff) Gen. Spaatz (cmdr. of the Air Force in the Pacific) Sec. Bard (undersecretary to the Navy) and a lot more all thought that the bombings were not necessary.

There was no swell of popular opposition/support b/c the bombings were top secret.

was there a huge division of the country as there is today after we dropped them?

[Decker]

was there a huge division of the country as there is today after we dropped them?

I doubt it.  Nobody knew about it b/c it was the most guarded secret on the planet.  As information filtered out about the cost/benefits of the bombings, I'm sure opinions developed.  In light of what we know now, it is not a stretch to call the bombings the worst man-made disasters of all time. 

The important fact to remember is that the people that knew of the bomb and of the state of the Japanese with respect to surrendering were against the bombing. 

That's rather sobering.

[militarymuscle69]

I doubt it.  Nobody knew about it b/c it was the most guarded secret on the planet.  As information filtered out about the cost/benefits of the bombings, I'm sure opinions developed.  In light of what we know now, it is not a stretch to call the bombings the worst man-made disasters of all time. 

The important fact to remember is that the people that knew of the bomb and of the state of the Japanese with respect to surrendering were against the bombing. 

That's rather sobering.

so do we ignore the fact that Japan became a world super power following us rebuilding it?

[Decker]

so do we ignore the fact that Japan became a world super power following us rebuilding it?

I don't know.  Does your contention diminish the fact that 140,000 men, women and children were burned alive or poisoned with radiation dying a slow death?  And the bombings gave the US the dubious distinction of being the only country to use nuclear weapons on fellow human beings.

There is a terrific debate on whether the bombings were necessary.  As I pointed out, the military leaders w/ the best knowledge of the circumstances stood against the bombings.

[OzmO]

More people were killed in 1 fire bombing on Tokyo before we dropped the first nuke

[militarymuscle69]

I don't know.  Does your contention diminish the fact that 140,000 men, women and children were burned alive or poisoned with radiation dying a slow death?  And the bombings gave the US the dubious distinction of being the only country to use nuclear weapons on fellow human beings.

There is a terrific debate on whether the bombings were necessary.  As I pointed out, the military leaders w/ the best knowledge of the circumstances stood against the bombings.

My point is, in order to win a war it isn't a matter of beating the military. If we took out 140,000 Iranians/Iraqis the will of the pwople would wilt and we would be victorius. In Iraq we have already lost 60,000 in everyday fighting. What if we would have taken out 50,000 in the beginning? The Iraqi people would be more helpful in pointing out insurgents to save their own hide. I'm not saying we target civilians, but if we just start carpet bombing Baghdad to take out insurgents and civilians die sometimes that is a cost of war.

[Decker]

My point is, in order to win a war it isn't a matter of beating the military. If we took out 140,000 Iranians/Iraqis the will of the pwople would wilt and we would be victorius. In Iraq we have already lost 60,000 in everyday fighting. What if we would have taken out 50,000 in the beginning? The Iraqi people would be more helpful in pointing out insurgents to save their own hide. I'm not saying we target civilians, but if we just start carpet bombing Baghdad to take out insurgents and civilians die sometimes that is a cost of war.

I could not imagine carpet bombing as a viable option.  At some point one's sense of humanity intervenes--whether that source is religious embodied by the teachings of Christ for e.g. or simply the wisdom of the Golden Rule of treat others as you would like to be treated.

No doubt your military tactic is efficient. 

[Decker]

More people were killed in 1 fire bombing on Tokyo before we dropped the first nuke

That's interesting.  I wonder if that is in line with the carpet bombing of Dresden.

[militarymuscle69]

I could not imagine carpet bombing as a viable option.  At some point one's sense of humanity intervenes--whether that source is religious embodied by the teachings of Christ for e.g. or simply the wisdom of the Golden Rule of treat others as you would like to be treated.

No doubt your military tactic is efficient. 

I really don't promote carpet bombing Decker. I am tired of people saying the military isn't the power that it portrays itself to be. I just wish people would realize that if we were allowed to use our power they wouldn't be saying that.

[Decker]

I really don't promote carpet bombing Decker. I am tired of people saying the military isn't the power that it portrays itself to be. I just wish people would realize that if we were allowed to use our power they wouldn't be saying that.

I'm not accusing you of anything.  I wouldn't do that. 

I have no doubt that with our nuclear capabilities we could destroy any enemy on earth several times over. 

Life is as simple as one chooses to make.  If one has related concerns mitigating the drive to utterly destroy the enemy, such as worries of civilian casualties, then alternatives to that type/style of victory must be sought.  If those concerns for loss of innocent lives are negligible, then carpet bombing is not difficult to envision.

I'd like to think that before we annihilate a city or countryside, we consider all the ramifications of our actions.

[militarymuscle69]

I'm not accusing you of anything.  I wouldn't do that. 

I have no doubt that with our nuclear capabilities we could destroy any enemy on earth several times over. 

Life is as simple as one chooses to make.  If one has related concerns mitigating the drive to utterly destroy the enemy, such as worries of civilian casualties, then alternatives to that type/style of victory must be sought.  If those concerns for loss of innocent lives are negligible, then carpet bombing is not difficult to envision.

I'd like to think that before we annihilate a city or countryside, we consider all the ramifications of our actions.

Oh I know you haven't said anything. But daily the people here say "if you guys are so powerful why haven't you ended this thing yet?"

[youandme]

LOL, you are crazy

So was the Soviet Union

[headhuntersix]

Oh I know you haven't said anything. But daily the people here say "if you guys are so powerful why haven't you ended this thing yet?"

These are all people who have never served a day in their lives (not a prereq)..read any books..not newspaper articles..books on the day to day combat that takes place over there. Talked to folks who have been over there....any insurgencey is very difficult to defeat....historically its been that way. We are equipt to break stuff..not selectively kick doors. Besides we don't make policy...the idiots in Washington do.

[24KT]

If we did it right now?

Probably would work to a certain extent.  But they wouldn't give up.  They are religious nuts. 

In the process we would kill thousands of civilians and be hailed as a evil empire.   

We would be alienated by even some of our strongest allies.

We would be condemned by the rest of the world.

It would be political suicide and our reputation as a "christain Nation" would change to "warmongers" and murderers.

It would be about the least thought out move ever at the expense of many dead innocent people who will suffer the effects for many years.

Why do you use the subjective tense, when the present or even past tense is more appropriate?

[24KT]

Yeah the invasion was great. the Aftermanth we have been held back. Look I know no one wants to lose civilians but if you look through History, that is how wars are won. Not by defeating the opposing military. Look at Japan, we never touched the japanese military did we? we took out a few hundred thousand civilians and they gave up. If we went in to Iraq and started massive bombing raids trying to oust Al-Queda members, it wouldn't take many civilian deaths before tha Iraqis started ousting Al-Queda for us.

You forget one crucial factor... there was no AlQ in Iraq before the invasion.
AlQ in Iraq was a product of the invasion

[Slapper]

We take 50% of the B-52s from Barksdale, 50% of the B-2s from Whiteman, 50% of the B-1s from Dyess, load them to the gills, fly over to Iran/Iraq/NK (take your pick) and bomb the living shit out of it until they give up. What would all the Libs have to say about that?

Better yet, why don't they load them up with you and all of your family and drop you all in the middle of the "sauce"?

[OzmO]

Why do you use the subjective tense, when the present or even past tense is more appropriate?

did we carpet bomb a city?

has some of strongest allies,  England, Canada, Japan etc....  alienated us?

[headhuntersix]

You forget one crucial factor... there was no AlQ in Iraq before the invasion.
AlQ in Iraq was a product of the invasion

Where the hell did u get that from......The rags will rush into anyplace that they have a chance to confront the west...ALQ is a product of Bill Clinton and the pussy left not doing their job.