Author Topic: " All-loving God "  (Read 44289 times)

loco

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #125 on: April 23, 2007, 07:20:57 AM »
so when are you going to address your assertion of God wanting us to be more like him and him murdering people?

also by your assertion i should be able to rightfully kill my son?  So you are saying becuase he created me he has the right to kill me and it isn't murder? 

You did not create your son.  God created your son.  We procreate.  We do not and cannot create life.

If God kills His creation, it is not murder.  God does not commit murder.

Have I adressed your question?  If not, please let me know how I can better address it.

OzmO

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #126 on: April 23, 2007, 07:30:04 AM »
You did not create your son.  God created your son.  We procreate.  We do not and cannot create life.

If God kills His creation, it is not murder.  God does not commit murder.

Have I adressed your question?  If not, please let me know how I can better address it.

no you haven't, it's a cop out.

He tells us not to kill and then kills 3000 people.  He ordered moses to kill 300 people.  So are you saying if God orders it it's ok?  If God wanted to change his creation he could have just made them disappear instead of making men kill.

Your are avoiding the fact of God's own hypocracy in ordering the death of 3000 people.  (please understand, i'm not calling a GOD a hypocrite, i'm only saying the picture of him painted in exodus is.  Hence the Bible is not the 100% word of God.)


loco

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #127 on: April 23, 2007, 07:42:28 AM »
no you haven't, it's a cop out.

He tells us not to kill and then kills 3000 people.  He ordered moses to kill 300 people.  So are you saying if God orders it it's ok?  If God wanted to change his creation he could have just made them disappear instead of making men kill.

Your are avoiding the fact of God's own hypocracy in ordering the death of 3000 people.  (please understand, i'm not calling a GOD a hypocrite, i'm only saying the picture of him painted in exodus is.  Hence the Bible is not the 100% word of God.)

So what?  How and why is it a cop out?  Because you say so?  I am not avoiding anything.  Am I denying any of your claims of God killing people?  No Christian or Jew will deny the flood, wars, the 10 plagues.  What else do you want? 

You believe it's murder.  Fine.  Believe it.  We don't share your belief, or unbelief. 

We don't believe it is murder because we believe God created life and only God can rightly and justly take it away whenever He wants to, however He wants to. 

Not only that, but everything we have belongs to God.  From God it all came and God can take it away if He wants to, when He wants to and however He wants to.

Job 1:21
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
       and naked I will depart.
       The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
       may the name of the LORD be praised
."

OzmO

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #128 on: April 23, 2007, 08:24:46 AM »
So what?  How and why is it a cop out?  Because you say so?  I am not avoiding anything.  Am I denying any of your claims of God killing people?  No Christian or Jew will deny the flood, wars, the 10 plagues.  What else do you want? 

You believe it's murder.  Fine.  Believe it.  We don't share your belief, or unbelief. 

We don't believe it is murder because we believe God created life and only God can rightly and justly take it away whenever He wants to, however He wants to. 

Not only that, but everything we have belongs to God.  From God it all came and God can take it away if He wants to, when He wants to and however He wants to.

Job 1:21
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
       and naked I will depart.
       The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
       may the name of the LORD be praised
."

Yeah, except for what's Caesars...... ::)

You still haven't address the hypocrisy.

loco

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #129 on: April 23, 2007, 09:03:51 AM »
Yeah, except for what's Caesars...... ::)

Ozmo,
What exactly are you talking about here?  Paying taxes? 

You still haven't address the hypocrisy.

What hypocrisy?  Aren't you an American, OzmO?  Didn't your country nearly wipe out Native Americans and stole their lands?  Isn't America at war in Iraq at the moment?  Are you not killing babies in abortion clinics?  Funny how you skeptics bring up the wars and "God killing babies" argument to attack the Bible, Christians and Jews, yet in doing so, you skeptics come off as hypocrites.  Who is the hypocrite now?

Don't get me wrong.  I love the United States of America.  I believe God has blessed America and God does a lot of good through America.  I'm just saying you should choose your words carefully so you don't come off as a hypocrite here, on the World Wide Web.


OzmO

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #130 on: April 23, 2007, 09:38:47 AM »


What hypocrisy?  Aren't you an American, OzmO?  Didn't your country nearly wipe out Native Americans and stole their lands?  Isn't America at war in Iraq at the moment?  Are you not killing babies in abortion clinics?  Funny how you skeptics bring up the wars and "God killing babies" argument to attack the Bible, Christians and Jews, yet in doing so, you skeptics come off as hypocrites.  Who is the hypocrite now?


OK, let's calm down a bit  :)

American did exactly that to the Native Indians.   I wasn't around then and had no say so in it happening.  Also, i think it it is a very bad chapter in our history and don't condone it.  Remember Wounded Knee?

I am not killing babies in an abortion clinic nor do i think abortion is right and would not advocate abortion if i got someone pregnant  and did not when i my Daughter was conceived when i was 22.

So your assertion of my hypocrisy doesn't hold here. 

However the flawed assertion of God's hypocrisy does hold in the Bible.


loco

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #131 on: April 23, 2007, 09:48:53 AM »
However the flawed assertion of God's hypocrisy does hold in the Bible.

Okay, one, two, three....breath.  I'm calm now.   ;D

Christians and Jews do not see the so called "hypocrisy" that you see.  We believe that you are mistaken and simply need further study. 

Have you even read the Bible from cover to cover?  Because you seem surprised by a lot of very popular Bible verses that have been the object of debate for many years, like  Isaiah 45:7. 

You are mistaken if you think that I see this so called "hypocrisy" and that I am trying to hide or deny it.  If I saw what you see, I would still be where you are now.  But thank God I am way past that point after 20+ years of reading and studying the Bible, history, theology and biblical archeology.

Yeah, except for what's Caesars...... ::)

Ozmo,
What exactly are you talking about here?  Paying taxes? 

OzmO

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #132 on: April 23, 2007, 09:59:48 AM »
Okay, one, two, three....breath.  I'm calm now.   ;D

Christians and Jews do not see the so called "hypocrisy" that you see.  We believe that you are mistaken and simply need further study. 

Have you even read the Bible from cover to cover?  Because you seem surprised by a lot of very popular Bible verses that have been the object of debate for many years, like  Isaiah 45:7. 

You are mistaken if you think that I see this so called "hypocrisy" and that I am trying to hide or deny it.  If I saw what you see, I would still be where you are now.  But thank God I am way past that point after 20+ years of reading and studying the Bible, history, theology and biblical archeology.

Ozmo,
What exactly are you talking about here?  Paying taxes? 

I've read the Bible cover to cover and some books 2-5 times.  But that was many years ago.  I don't have the recall i once had regarding it because my interests have changed over time and i formed my opinions about organized religion in general around that time about 10 years ago.  I was found by God in a Christian Church and believe his word resides in the Bible but not 100%, that's all.


My point about taxes was that "it's all Gods" creation.  Without the physical material it wouldn't be possible to have taxes.

Oldschool Flip

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #133 on: April 23, 2007, 12:41:55 PM »
Many of the principles of modern science were recorded as facts of nature in the Bible long before scientist confirmed them experimentally. A sampling of these would include:

Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)

Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)

Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)

Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)

Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)

Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)

Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)

Gravitational field (Job 26:7)

Space and stars are too large to be measured or counted. (Jeremiah 33:22, Genesis 15:5)
Attempts by scientists to number the astronomical bodies went on until 1932.   ;D

and many others.

Checkable Biblical Accuracy
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Charts/CheckableBiblicalAccuracy.html


Hahaha! These are translated from Hebrew? That didn't have that terminology back then! These are words that are put in by modern day Bible publications. Which by the way is wrong according to the Bible. Nothing shall be added or taken away. ::)

loco

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #134 on: April 23, 2007, 12:45:28 PM »
Hahaha! These are translated from Hebrew? That didn't have that terminology back then! These are words that are put in by modern day Bible publications. Which by the way is wrong according to the Bible. Nothing shall be added or taken away. ::)

Yes.  By the way, I've read the Bible in more languages than just English.  You assume too much.

Oh, and did you know that a Presbyterian minister cannot graduate seminary before learning Hebrew and Greek first?

Nobody is adding anything.  It has been there for centuries.  Read it.

Oldschool Flip

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #135 on: April 23, 2007, 01:08:15 PM »
Yes.  By the way, I've read the Bible in more languages than just English.  You assume too much.

Oh, and did you know that a Presbyterian minister cannot graduate seminary before learning Hebrew and Greek first?

Nobody is adding anything.  It has been there for centuries.  Read it.
Didin't say "nobody" I said nothing. Translations change original meanings. For example:

In revelation one Bible speaks of the beast coming from the east. Another speaks of it coming from the far east.
East is and far east are two different places. Far east is understood as Asia.

loco

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #136 on: April 23, 2007, 01:12:00 PM »
Didin't say "nobody" I said nothing. Translations change original meanings. For example:

In revelation one Bible speaks of the beast coming from the east. Another speaks of it coming from the far east.
East is and far east are two different places. Far east is understood as Asia.

About scientific facts, these are not stated in the Bible in the technical jargon of modern science, of course, but in terms of the basic world of man's everyday experience; nevertheless, they are completely in accord with the most modern scientific facts.

For example:

From ancient biblical times until 1932 different people and scientists attempted to number(count) the astronomical bodies. 

Yet the Bible always have said:

Jeremiah 33:22
"As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me"

Genesis 15:5
Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”

Oldschool Flip

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #137 on: April 23, 2007, 01:19:27 PM »
About scientific facts, these are not stated in the Bible in the technical jargon of modern science, of course, but in terms of the basic world of man's everyday experience; nevertheless, they are completely in accord with the most modern scientific facts.

For example:

From ancient biblical times until 1932 different people and scientists attempted to number the astronomical bodies. 

Yet the Bible always have said:

Jeremiah 33:22
"As the host of heaven cannot be numbered"
So heaven is defined as "endless space"? That's translation that Bible believers would use to prove outer space was known before it was discovered. LOL. Next thing you know, once we actually find a way to travel into space safely, you'll try to find something that fits into that. Actual find it now, because eventually it will happen.

Now remember a "horseless carraige" is not the same thing as a "space ship"! ;D

loco

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #138 on: April 23, 2007, 01:23:22 PM »
So heaven is defined as "endless space"? That's translation that Bible believers would use to prove outer space was known before it was discovered. LOL. Next thing you know, once we actually find a way to travel into space safely, you'll try to find something that fits into that. Actual find it now, because eventually it will happen.

Now remember a "horseless carraige" is not the same thing as a "space ship"! ;D

Did you not read my post?  Scientists had been trying to count the stars for many years, yet the Bible have always said that they cannot be counted.  And this is just one small example.

Oldschool Flip

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #139 on: April 23, 2007, 01:28:40 PM »
Did you not read my post?  Scientists had been trying to count the stars for many years, yet the Bible have always said that they cannot be counted.  And this is just one small example.
That's your proof that the Bible is the answer to all questions? LOL. Wow. I'm convinced now! ::)

Now show me where it talks about spaceships.

loco

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #140 on: April 23, 2007, 01:36:56 PM »
That's your proof that the Bible is the answer to all questions? LOL. Wow. I'm convinced now! ::)

Now show me where it talks about spaceships.

What question?  This should at least make you want to learn more about this stuff.

How do you explain that ancient texts are ahead of the science of its time?  Did you even look at all the other evidence I posted?  Oh, and then there is history and archeology.  Don't even get me started on that.

You can laugh and roll your eyes all you want, but people of science have looked at this and wondered how it can be explained.  Some have become believers. 

But there is no worse blind man than the one who doesn't want to see.

Oldschool Flip, I'm praying for you.  God bless you and your wife!

Oldschool Flip

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #141 on: April 23, 2007, 04:46:02 PM »
What question?  This should at least make you want to learn more about this stuff.
Learn from a book that CLAIMS to be the Word of God, of whom there is no proof exists? Yes, I have no proof that he doesn't exist, but I don't believe in vampires, werewolves, psychics, or para-normal events either.

Quote
How do you explain that ancient texts are ahead of the science of its time?  Did you even look at all the other evidence I posted?  Oh, and then there is history and archeology.  Don't even get me started on that.
Easy. You translate it into what you want. Just like a psychic, if this are vague enough to seem real, some people will believe in it.

Quote
You can laugh and roll your eyes all you want, but people of science have looked at this and wondered how it can be explained.  Some have become believers.
Hahahaha. You mean theological scientists?  ::) 

Quote
But there is no worse blind man than the one who doesn't want to see.
Unless that blind man uses his others senses to understand whats really going on.

Quote
Oldschool Flip, I'm praying for you.  God bless you and your wife!
No need to pray, I'm doing better than most Christians who beg God for a better life.

loco

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #142 on: April 23, 2007, 05:09:23 PM »
Learn from a book that CLAIMS to be the Word of God, of whom there is no proof exists? Yes, I have no proof that he doesn't exist, but I don't believe in vampires, werewolves, psychics, or para-normal events either.
Easy. You translate it into what you want. Just like a psychic, if this are vague enough to seem real, some people will believe in it.
Hahahaha. You mean theological scientists?  ::) 
Unless that blind man uses his others senses to understand whats really going on.
No need to pray, I'm doing better than most Christians who beg God for a better life.

I pray for you anyway.

Wikidudeman

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #143 on: April 23, 2007, 08:43:02 PM »
Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)


Isaiah 40:22
[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.


The word here is "Circle". The earth isn't a circle.

The Hebrew word used for "Circle" is "chuwg" which means..
1) circle, circuit, compass
2) (BDB) vault (of the heavens)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Isa
&chapter=40&verse=22&strongs=02329&page=


This is implying that the earth is a flat circle. Not a rough sphere as we know of it today.

Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)

Isaiah 55:9
For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.]For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


How does this give the idea that the universe is almost infinite?

This says that the "heavens" are "higher". This doesn't mean much of anything other than what it says. Hebrew root "gabahh" meaning "lofty" or "tall".


Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)

That's quite a stretch...

II Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


I can't even tell what you're getting at here to even refute it.

Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)

Ecclesiastes 1:7
All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea [is] not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.


The idea that rivers went to the sea and the water supplied to the rivers came from the ocean as well was known for thousands of years prior to the Ecclesiastes even being written.

Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)

Psalm 102:25-27
Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens [are] the work of thy hands.
hey shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
But thou [art] the same, and thy years shall have no end.



This is simply saying that though the Earth will change, God won't. Basic religious idea. This has nothing to do with increasing 'entropy' or the laws of thermodynamics.

Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)

This had been known for a long long time prior to Leviticus being written.

Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)

Same as above.

Gravitational field (Job 26:7)

Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing.


This is the idea that the earth floats in empty space, Not the idea of "gravitational fields". That's quite a stretch.

Space and stars are too large to be measured or counted. (Jeremiah 33:22, Genesis 15:5)

This had been known for a long time as well. But this idea is not that there are somehow stars beyond what we can see. Just that there are too many that we do see to be counted. Nothing to do with advanced astronomical ideas.


Checkable Biblical Accuracy
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Charts/CheckableBiblicalAccuracy.html

I think you should look at other websites opposed to just pro creationism websites. You seem to be referencing the same websites over and over.

loco

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #144 on: April 24, 2007, 05:05:05 AM »
Easy. You translate it into what you want. Just like a psychic, if this are vague enough to seem real, some people will believe in it.

Wrong.  The text is not vague and requires no translation.  It is very clear.

Hahahaha. You mean theological scientists?  ::) 

So according to you, only "theological scientists" believe in God?    ::)

Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543)
Copernicus was the Polish astronomer who put forward the first mathematically based system of planets going around the sun. He attended various European universities, and became a Canon in the Catholic church in 1497. His new system was actually first presented in the Vatican gardens in 1533 before Pope Clement VII who approved, and urged Copernicus to publish it around this time. Copernicus was never under any threat of religious persecution - and was urged to publish both by Catholic Bishop Guise, Cardinal Schonberg, and the Protestant Professor George Rheticus. Copernicus referred sometimes to God in his works, and did not see his system as in conflict with the Bible.

Sir Fancis Bacon (1561-1627)
Bacon was a philosopher who is known for establishing the scientific method of inquiry based on experimentation and inductive reasoning. In De Interpretatione Naturae Prooemium, Bacon established his goals as being the discovery of truth, service to his country, and service to the church. Although his work was based upon experimentation and reasoning, he rejected atheism as being the result of insufficient depth of philosophy, stating, "It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion; for while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them confederate, and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity." (Of Atheism)

Johannes Kepler (1571-1630)
Kepler was a brilliant mathematician and astronomer. He did early work on light, and established the laws of planetary motion about the sun. He also came close to reaching the Newtonian concept of universal gravity - well before Newton was born! His introduction of the idea of force in astronomy changed it radically in a modern direction. Kepler was an extremely sincere and pious Lutheran, whose works on astronomy contain writings about how space and the heavenly bodies represent the Trinity. Kepler suffered no persecution for his open avowal of the sun-centered system, and, indeed, was allowed as a Protestant to stay in Catholic Graz as a Professor (1595-1600) when other Protestants had been expelled!

Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar system was published in 1633. It had no proofs of a sun-centered system (Galileo's telescope discoveries did not indicate a moving earth) and his one "proof" based upon the tides was invalid. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Since his work finished by putting the Pope's favorite argument in the mouth of the simpleton in the dialogue, the Pope (an old friend of Galileo's) was very offended. After the "trial" and being forbidden to teach the sun-centered system, Galileo did his most useful theoretical work, which was on dynamics. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, and saw his system as an alternate interpretation of the biblical texts.

Rene Descartes (1596-1650)
Descartes was a French mathematician, scientist and philosopher who has been called the father of modern philosophy. His school studies made him dissatisfied with previous philosophy: He had a deep religious faith as a Roman Catholic, which he retained to his dying day, along with a resolute, passionate desire to discover the truth. At the age of 24 he had a dream, and felt the vocational call to seek to bring knowledge together in one system of thought. His system began by asking what could be known if all else were doubted - suggesting the famous "I think therefore I am". Actually, it is often forgotten that the next step for Descartes was to establish the near certainty of the existence of God - for only if God both exists and would not want us to be deceived by our experiences - can we trust our senses and logical thought processes. God is, therefore, central to his whole philosophy. What he really wanted to see was that his philosophy be adopted as standard Roman Catholic teaching. Rene Descartes and Francis Bacon (1561-1626) are generally regarded as the key figures in the development of scientific methodology. Both had systems in which God was important, and both seem more devout than the average for their era.

Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
In optics, mechanics, and mathematics, Newton was a figure of undisputed genius and innovation. In all his science (including chemistry) he saw mathematics and numbers as central. What is less well known is that he was devoutly religious and saw numbers as involved in understanding God's plan for history from the Bible. He did a considerable work on biblical numerology, and, though aspects of his beliefs were not orthodox, he thought theology was very important. In his system of physics, God is essential to the nature and absoluteness of space. In Principia he stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being."

Robert Boyle (1791-1867)
One of the founders and key early members of the Royal Society, Boyle gave his name to "Boyle's Law" for gases, and also wrote an important work on chemistry. Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "By his will he endowed a series of Boyle lectures, or sermons, which still continue, 'for proving the Christian religion against notorious infidels...' As a devout Protestant, Boyle took a special interest in promoting the Christian religion abroad, giving money to translate and publish the New Testament into Irish and Turkish. In 1690 he developed his theological views in The Christian Virtuoso, which he wrote to show that the study of nature was a central religious duty." Boyle wrote against atheists in his day (the notion that atheism is a modern invention is a myth), and was clearly much more devoutly Christian than the average in his era.

Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
Michael Faraday was the son of a blacksmith who became one of the greatest scientists of the 19th century. His work on electricity and magnetism not only revolutionized physics, but led to much of our lifestyles today, which depends on them (including computers and telephone lines and, so, web sites). Faraday was a devoutly Christian member of the Sandemanians, which significantly influenced him and strongly affected the way in which he approached and interpreted nature. Originating from Presbyterians, the Sandemanians rejected the idea of state churches, and tried to go back to a New Testament type of Christianity.

Gregor Mendel (1822-1884)
Mendel was the first to lay the mathematical foundations of genetics, in what came to be called "Mendelianism". He began his research in 1856 (three years before Darwin published his Origin of Species) in the garden of the Monastery in which he was a monk. Mendel was elected Abbot of his Monastery in 1868. His work remained comparatively unknown until the turn of the century, when a new generation of botanists began finding similar results and "rediscovered" him (though their ideas were not identical to his). An interesting point is that the 1860's was notable for formation of the X-Club, which was dedicated to lessening religious influences and propagating an image of "conflict" between science and religion. One sympathizer was Darwin's cousin Francis Galton, whose scientific interest was in genetics (a proponent of eugenics - selective breeding among humans to "improve" the stock). He was writing how the "priestly mind" was not conducive to science while, at around the same time, an Austrian monk was making the breakthrough in genetics. The rediscovery of the work of Mendel came too late to affect Galton's contribution.

William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907)
Kelvin was foremost among the small group of British scientists who helped to lay the foundations of modern physics. His work covered many areas of physics, and he was said to have more letters after his name than anyone else in the Commonwealth, since he received numerous honorary degrees from European Universities, which recognized the value of his work. He was a very committed Christian, who was certainly more religious than the average for his era. Interestingly, his fellow physicists George Gabriel Stokes (1819-1903) and James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) were also men of deep Christian commitment, in an era when many were nominal, apathetic, or anti-Christian. The Encyclopedia Britannica says "Maxwell is regarded by most modern physicists as the scientist of the 19th century who had the greatest influence on 20th century physics; he is ranked with Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein for the fundamental nature of his contributions." Lord Kelvin was an Old Earth creationist, who estimated the Earth's age to be somewhere between 20 million and 100 million years, with an upper limit at 500 million years based on cooling rates (a low estimate due to his lack of knowledge about radiogenic heating).

Max Planck (1858-1947)
Planck made many contributions to physics, but is best known for quantum theory, which revolutionized our understanding of the atomic and sub-atomic worlds. In his 1937 lecture "Religion and Naturwissenschaft," Planck expressed the view that God is everywhere present, and held that "the holiness of the unintelligible Godhead is conveyed by the holiness of symbols." Atheists, he thought, attach too much importance to what are merely symbols. Planck was a churchwarden from 1920 until his death, and believed in an almighty, all-knowing, beneficent God (though not necessarily a personal one). Both science and religion wage a "tireless battle against skepticism and dogmatism, against unbelief and superstition" with the goal "toward God!"

Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
 
Unless that blind man uses his others senses to understand whats really going on.

You are not really blind, you just don't want to see.  Therefore, your other senses don't work as well as a real blind man's would.

No need to pray, I'm doing better than most Christians who beg God for a better life.

Still praying for ya.

Oldschool Flip

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #145 on: April 24, 2007, 05:43:38 AM »
Pray for people that need it more than me. ::) With all this praying in the world going on, you'd figure that all the violence and corruption amonst mankind would cease to exist.

Just like our genes haven't changed in the past few thousand years, neither have our behaviors. Like ALL animals we want to procreate to ensure our genes are carried on to the next generation. However, humans have the knowledge to intimidate without physical confrontation. Using strong enough words and scare tactics will get enough people to bow down.

As much "evidence" as you have about God's creating man and having dominance over him, the biggest fear ALL Christians have would be to find out that it was all a hoax. Create fear and you have power.

It's all around us. Not just in religion, but politics, jobs, sports, etc.

What's really great is since I have renounced my faith in any religion, personal, financial, and success has been easier. Guess God had this in store for me , huh?  ::)

loco

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #146 on: April 24, 2007, 06:08:32 AM »
The word here is "Circle". The earth isn't a circle.

This is implying that the earth is a flat circle. Not a rough sphere as we know of it today.

A circle is round.  The earth is round.  The Bible never says that the earth is a "flat" circle or a "disk".  You are the one stretching the truth, then you accuse me of doing the same.

Roundness of the earth
Isaiah 40:22
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth"

Proverbs 8:27
"When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
      When He drew a circle on the face of the deep"

COMMON BELIEF OF DAY IN WHICH AUTHOR LIVED:  The earth was NOT round.  It was flat.


Earth is not physically supported.
Job 26:7

"he suspends the earth over nothing"

COMMON BELIEF OF DAY IN WHICH AUTHOR LIVED: Earth held up by four elephants or Atlas (a man), etc.


Space and stars are too large to be measured or counted.

Jeremiah 33:22"
I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars of the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.' "

Genesis 15:5
He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."

COMMON BELIEF OF DAY IN WHICH AUTHOR LIVED:
Attempts to number the astronomical bodies went on until 1932.


Blood is essential to life.
Leviticus 17:11-14

"For the life of a creature is in the blood"

COMMON BELIEF OF DAY IN WHICH AUTHOR LIVED:
Disease and spirits reside in blood.  To cure disease, bleed patient.


I think you should look at other websites opposed to just pro creationism websites.

I read opposing views all the time.  I believe that it is a great way to learn.  Very interesting stuff and very intelligent and well educated people, but you skeptics all contradict yourselves and your arguments are weak.

You seem to be referencing the same websites over and over.

I have referenced the same website many times, but that's because people won't read it.  So I'll keep referencing the same website until people read it.  I have also referenced many other websites too.

I have been studying the Bible, world history and science long before there was a World Wide Web, Google and Wikipedia.

Having said that, I still learn from you and others who post here.    ;D

loco

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #147 on: April 24, 2007, 06:16:07 AM »
As much "evidence" as you have about God's creating man and having dominance over him, the biggest fear ALL Christians have would be to find out that it was all a hoax. Create fear and you have power.

I have faith.  I do not need evidence.  The evidence is not for me.  The evidence is to give a reason for my faith and to plant a seed that will hopefully help others seek Jesus Christ.

I do not have fear to find out that it all is a hoax.  My faith is not based on this evidence.  Before I knew the evidence, I heard and read the Word of God and I believed in Jesus Christ by faith.

Jesus Christ changed my life and He changed me.

I cannot prove to you that God exists, or that the Bible is the word of God, or that Jesus can save you.  All I can do is share my experience with you and present you with evidence.

In the end, we are saved only by grace, through faith.

What's really great is since I have renounced my faith in any religion, personal, financial, and success has been easier. Guess God had this in store for me , huh?  ::)

Congratulations!  I'm very happy for you!

Colossus_500

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #148 on: April 24, 2007, 06:21:13 AM »
So what?  How and why is it a cop out?  Because you say so?  I am not avoiding anything.  Am I denying any of your claims of God killing people?  No Christian or Jew will deny the flood, wars, the 10 plagues.  What else do you want? 

You believe it's murder.  Fine.  Believe it.  We don't share your belief, or unbelief. 

We don't believe it is murder because we believe God created life and only God can rightly and justly take it away whenever He wants to, however He wants to. 

Not only that, but everything we have belongs to God.  From God it all came and God can take it away if He wants to, when He wants to and however He wants to.

Job 1:21
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
       and naked I will depart.
       The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
       may the name of the LORD be praised
."
Amen!

Wikidudeman

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #149 on: April 24, 2007, 07:41:13 AM »
A circle is round.  The earth is round.  The Bible never says that the earth is a "flat" circle or a "disk".  You are the one stretching the truth, then you accuse me of doing the same.

Roundness of the earth
Isaiah 40:22
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth"

Proverbs 8:27
"When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
      When He drew a circle on the face of the deep"

No. Circles aren't the same things as spheres. Spheres are round from all angles. Circles aren't.

The Hebrew word used for "Circle" is "chuwg" which means..
1) circle, circuit, compass
2) (BDB) vault (of the heavens)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Isa
&chapter=40&verse=22&strongs=02329&page=


The concept of the circle here is talking about the flat earth, as a circle, and the sky stretched out over it as a tent. As it clearly says.

COMMON BELIEF OF DAY IN WHICH AUTHOR LIVED:  The earth was NOT round.  It was flat.


Earth is not physically supported.
Job 26:7

"he suspends the earth over nothing"

COMMON BELIEF OF DAY IN WHICH AUTHOR LIVED: Earth held up by four elephants or Atlas (a man), etc.

Space and stars are too large to be measured or counted.

Jeremiah 33:22"
I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars of the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.' "

Genesis 15:5
He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."

COMMON BELIEF OF DAY IN WHICH AUTHOR LIVED:
Attempts to number the astronomical bodies went on until 1932.


Blood is essential to life.
Leviticus 17:11-14

"For the life of a creature is in the blood"

COMMON BELIEF OF DAY IN WHICH AUTHOR LIVED:
Disease and spirits reside in blood.  To cure disease, bleed patient.

I've addressed all of this already. Please read my post.


I read opposing views all the time.  I believe that it is a great way to learn.  Very interesting stuff and very intelligent and well educated people, but you skeptics all contradict yourselves and your arguments are weak.

1. If you read opposing views then why haven't you had experience with the arguments I'm presenting against your assertions? If you had, you would of addressed them and not ignored them.

2. How do I contradict myself? How are my arguments weak?

I have referenced the same website many times, but that's because people won't read it.  So I'll keep referencing the same website until people read it.  I have also referenced many other websites too.

I have read it, I have refuted it.

I have been studying the Bible, world history and science long before there was a World Wide Web, Google and Wikipedia.

I find that a bit hard to believe.

Having said that, I still learn from you and others who post here.    ;D

I find that a bit hard to believe as well.