Author Topic: " All-loving God "  (Read 44037 times)

Oldschool Flip

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #175 on: April 25, 2007, 10:05:11 PM »
Your enemies are those people who mean you and your loved ones harm.  Christians ought to love those people, even while they mean us and our loved ones harm.
I see failure in this process because if someone broke into your home, threatened to kill you, then in your heart you would love them?

Quote
As Christians grow spiritually, we become more and more like Jesus Christ, who loved even those who tortured and killed Him.  Some Christians who hated people before, learn to love them later in life.  But it is not until we get to heaven that we will truly attain perfection.  Thus, if a Christian hates the murderer of a loved one, that Christian will eventually, in this life, forgive and love that murderer.  If that Christian dies before growing spiritually to that point, that Christian will attain perfection in heaven anyway and love that murderer in heaven.
It sounds as if when you die, and you didn't grow spiritually, that your mind is then made up for you once you get to heaven. Kinda like a dictatorship. Sounds wonderful. Not.

Wikidudeman

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #176 on: April 26, 2007, 04:14:11 AM »
If that were true, then why couldn't Muslims base their religion entirely on the Bible?  Why did they have to come up with their own book?  Same goes for Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, etc.  If what you are saying is true, why did they have to come up with their own book?

I guess they wanted to say they had their own holy book.


Wikidudeman,
Where did that quote come from?  Not from the Bible.  Where does it say to pile up bodies and burn them as an offering to God?  The God of the Bible never required human sacrifice.  God forbids it.  Even after asking Abraham to offer his son, God stopped him. 

This is what the Bible passage says, and it's talking about burning things, not people:

Deuteronomy 13:16  (King James Version)
16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

Deuteronomy 13:16 (New King James Version)
And you shall gather all its plunder into the middle of the street, and completely burn with fire the city and all its plunder, for the LORD your God. It shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again

Deuteronomy 13:16 (New International Version)
Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.

Deuteronomy 13:16 (New American Standard Bible)
Then you shall gather all its booty into the middle of its open square and burn the city and all its booty with fire as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God; and it shall be a ruin forever. It shall never be rebuilt.

You forgot the rest...
Deuteronomy 13 King James Version

13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

 16
And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

 17
And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

18When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

loco

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #177 on: April 26, 2007, 04:29:34 AM »
I guess they wanted to say they had their own holy book.

Right, you are guessing.  Your statement is not a fact.

You forgot the rest...
Deuteronomy 13 King James Version

13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

 16
And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

 17
And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

18When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.


I did not forget the rest.  You quoted the Bible saying that they piled bodies and burnt them as a burnt offering to God.  Where did you get that?  Is not in the Bible, is it?  How do you know they didn't bury the human bodies first, or outside the city?  This is very significant because God did require burnt offering of animals, vegetables and "things", but never human flesh.  So where did you get your earlier quote from?

or I could even claim that the bible supports murdering an entire town of people including children, killing their livestock, piling up the bodies and all of their belongings into the street and torching it all as a burnt offering to God all simply for the town converting to another religion[/i] (Deuteronomy 13:13-19).

Where did that quote come from?  Not from the Bible.  Where does it say to pile up bodies and burn them as an offering to God?  The God of the Bible never required human sacrifice.  God forbids it.  Even after asking Abraham to offer his son, God stopped him. 

This is what the Bible passage says, and it's talking about burning things, not people:

Deuteronomy 13:16  (King James Version)
16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

Deuteronomy 13:16 (New King James Version)
And you shall gather all its plunder into the middle of the street, and completely burn with fire the city and all its plunder, for the LORD your God. It shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again

Deuteronomy 13:16 (New International Version)
Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.

Deuteronomy 13:16 (New American Standard Bible)
Then you shall gather all its booty into the middle of its open square and burn the city and all its booty with fire as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God; and it shall be a ruin forever. It shall never be rebuilt.

loco

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #178 on: April 26, 2007, 06:51:55 AM »
It sounds as if when you die, and you didn't grow spiritually, that your mind is then made up for you once you get to heaven. Kinda like a dictatorship. Sounds wonderful. Not.

The moment that people place their faith in Jesus Christ, they make up their mind to follow Him, to be like Jesus Christ and love everybody.  At that moment, the spiritual growth begins.  The flesh competes with the spirit for control.  Satan and his demons take advantage of the flesh and use it as a weapon against Christians to temp them to sin and to hate others, even other Christians.  As Christians grow spiritually, the spirit becomes stronger and takes more control over the flesh.  As Christians grow stronger spiritually, we learn to love everyone, even those who mean to harm us and our loved ones.

The flesh and Satan are not in heaven.  So that's one reason Christians attain true perfection in heaven.  But their minds are already made up in this life to attain perfection and to be like Jesus Christ.

I see failure in this process because if someone broke into your home, threatened to kill you, then in your heart you would love them?

I know that I should, and I really do want to love this person.  I know that God loves this person and that it is God's desire that this person repents and accepts Jesus as Lord and Saviour.  Would I love this person?  Depends on where I am in my spiritual growth at that moment.  Many Christians have been put in this situation before and yes, they loved the person who broke into their house and threatened to harm them.  Below is a good example:

Posted on Mar 14, 2005
ATLANTA (BP)--Ashley Smith, the Atlanta-area woman taken hostage by the subject of the largest manhunt in Georgia history March 12, calmed the alleged killer by reading an excerpt from "The Purpose-Driven Life" and talking with him about God. She escaped by persuading him to let her pick up her daughter from an AWANA children's program at a Southern Baptist church.

"I asked him if I could read," Smith, 26, said in recounting the ordeal to reporters outside her attorney's office March 13. "He said, 'What do you want to read?'

"'Well, I have a book in my room.' So I went and got it. I got my Bible, and I got a book called 'The Purpose-Driven Life.' I turned it to the chapter that I was on that day. It was chapter 33. And I started to read the first paragraph of it. After I read it, he said, 'Stop. Will you read it again?'

"So I read it again to him," Smith said.

On Day 33 of the book, author Rick Warren, a Southern Baptist pastor in California, writes, "We serve God by serving others. The world defines greatness in terms of power, possessions, prestige, and position. If you can demand service from others, you've arrived. In our self-serving culture with its me-first mentality, acting like a servant is not a popular concept."

The alleged gunman, Brian Nichols, overpowered an Atlanta courthouse deputy as he was being escorted to court for a rape trial March 11. He then shot and killed the presiding judge and a court reporter before killing another deputy as he left the courthouse. Later he killed a federal agent in an attempt to flee authorities.

Nichols, 33, held Smith at gunpoint outside her Duluth apartment around 2:30 a.m. March 12, apparently having chosen her at random as she returned from a trip to a nearby store. Once he removed his hat, she recognized him as the man wanted for the killing spree and chose to cooperate with his demands. He tied her up and then began to converse with her.

Smith asked Nichols not to kill her because she was scheduled to pick up her 5-year-old daughter the next morning. Four years ago, Smith's husband died in her arms after being stabbed in a knife fight, according to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, and Smith was concerned that her daughter would become an orphan.

M. Allen Hughes, administrative pastor at Hebron Baptist Church in Dacula, Ga., told Baptist Press he was under the impression Smith planned to pick up her daughter at the church's AWANA function Saturday morning.

"My understanding was that her little girl was participating and that she was supposed to come pick up her little girl and obviously didn't get to do that because of the situation," Hughes said. "Some relative picked up the little girl for her, and ... when the relative found out that she did not pick the little girl up, that's how they knew something was going on. That's pretty much all we know on this end."

As time passed during the early morning hours at the apartment, Nichols and Smith talked about God, family and life experiences while the fugitive apparently became more comfortable with the hostage. She began to help the gunman consider the families of the victims he had shot that day and asked him if he thought about how they might be feeling.

"After we began to talk, he said he thought that I was an angel sent from God and that I was his sister and he was my brother in Christ and that he was lost and God led him right to me to tell him that he had hurt a lot of people," Smith told reporters. "And the families -- the people -- to let him know how they felt because I had gone through it myself."

Nichols held photographs of Smith's family in his hands and said repeatedly that he did not want to hurt anyone else, according to a CNN transcript of Smith's statements to reporters.

"He said, 'Can I stay here for a few days? I just want to eat some real food and watch some TV and sleep and just do normal things that normal people do,'" Smith said.

As they continued to talk, Nichols mentioned that he considered his life to be over.

"He needed hope for his life. He told me that he was already dead," Smith told reporters. "He said, 'Look at me. Look at my eyes. I am already dead.' And I said, 'You are not dead. You are standing right in front of me. If you want to die, you can. It's your choice.'

"But after I started to read to him, he saw -- I guess he saw my faith and what I really believed in. And I told him I was a child of God and that I wanted to do God's will. I guess he began to want to. That's what I think," she said.

When he was hungry, Smith made pancakes for Nichols and they talked more about God.

"I said, 'Do you believe in miracles? Because if you don't believe in miracles -- you are here for a reason. You're here in my apartment for some reason. You got out of that courthouse with police everywhere, and you don't think that's a miracle? You don't think you're supposed to be sitting right here in front of me listening to me tell you, you know, your reason here?'

"I said, 'You know, your miracle could be that you need to -- you need to be caught for this,'" Smith continued. "'You need to go to prison and you need to share the Word of God with them, with all the prisoners there.'"

By 9:30 a.m., Nichols agreed to let Smith leave to pick up her daughter. When she reached the first stop sign on her route, Smith dialed 911 and within minutes a Gwinnett County police SWAT team had surrounded the apartment with Nichols inside, according to The Journal-Constitution. Nichols waved a white piece of cloth to signal his surrender and was taken into custody.

"I believe God brought him to my door so he couldn't hurt anyone else," Smith said.
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=20340

OzmO

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #179 on: April 26, 2007, 08:25:34 AM »
It's interesting when you compare and contrast the often violent reactions of the God described in the OT versus the tempered reactions of Jesus who preached tolerance, compassion and love.

It's like they are 2 different people.  On one hand we the God in Exodus who ordered the death of 3000 people for lacking faith and then you have Jesus in the NT preaching love thy enemy.

loco

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #180 on: April 26, 2007, 08:35:35 AM »

Yes, very free.  EXTREMELY FREE.


You are correct.  It is free, for you.  Eternal life through Jesus Christ is a gift from God.  A gift is free...
 

It doesn't cost anyone anything. 

...However, it wasn't free for Jesus.  He suffered and died for your sins because He loves you.

They just say:  I accpet that Christ died on the corss for my sins and everything is forgiven.  then if they have sex with men and do crank or meth and lead a church they still are forgiven.  So why try?

You are correct.  Except once they accept Christ died on the cross for their sins and everything is forgiven, they no longer want to continue to live in their former life style.  They still may have the temptation to do it and get instant pleasure and gratification from it, but they no longer have the desire to continue in that life style.   

Their desire now is to grow spiritually, to live a selfless life, to love everyone and to bring others to Jesus Christ.  Spiritual growth takes time and it is not easy.

ANd what of the price paid by Jesus?

What price?  lol
He was GOD on earth who went through death....something every human goes through.  EVERYONE.  And Jesus did it by choice,  not like the ones who died under Moses's hand by GOD order.

And his suffering?  He suffered for a day.  People routinely get torture for months, endure slow painful deaths, watch their children die in front of them by Wars or Evils god created, and GOD let's this happen and you want to make a BIG deal of Jesus all powerful God dying on the cross and some ultimate sacrifice?

Oh please.

You are correct.  Many people suffer just as much if not more than Jesus suffered.  Many people even suffer for things they didn't do.  Some even suffer and die for loved ones.

The difference is that:

1.  Only Jesus is sinless, perfect, spotless, blameless, guiltless.  Only Jesus is an acceptable sacrifice for the atonement of other people's sins, for your sins.  The suffering and death of all these other people cannot save you.

2. Jesus chose to die for your sins, because He loves you.  Jesus died even for those who tortured and killed him.

Did GOd (Jesus) have to worry or fear about anything?  no.

OzmO,
Why do you say that Jesus did not feel worry or fear?  How do you know he didn't?  I know that Jesus felt pain, physical and emotional pain, sorrow, maybe worry and maybe fear too.

He knew the future.  So Jesus knew what He was about to endure which extended all of these unpleasant feelings.

Why then did Jesus go through all of this, having committed no sin?  For you, Ozmo.  So you can enjoy fellowship with God in this life and so that you can be with Him in the life to come.

Sometimes, loco, Christians are so easily manipulated by guilt.

OzmO,
People in general can be easily manipulated, Christians and non-Christians alike.

loco

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #181 on: April 26, 2007, 08:49:29 AM »
It's interesting when you compare and contrast the often violent reactions of the God described in the OT versus the tempered reactions of Jesus who preached tolerance, compassion and love.

Yes, very interesting, isn't it?  The God of the Old Testament seems angry, strict and judgemental.  The God of the New Testament seems loving, laid back and kind.  It's like two different Gods. 

I now understand why and I will get into that later.

It's like they are 2 different people.  On one hand we the God in Exodus who ordered the death of 3000 people for lacking faith and then you have Jesus in the NT preaching love thy enemy.

OzmO,
just out of curiosity, why do you keep bringing up that God killed 3000 people?  God has killed many more than that.  Remember the flood?  God killed the entire world of the time, except for Noah and his family.  Back then the world's population wasn't that much, but I'm sure it was way more than 3000 people, and I'm sure that included women and children. 

Genesis 8:20-21
"Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: ‘Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.’"

OzmO

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #182 on: April 26, 2007, 09:18:13 AM »
You are correct.  It is free, for you.  Eternal life through Jesus Christ is a gift from God.  A gift is free...
 
...However, it wasn't free for Jesus.  He suffered and died for your sins because He loves you.

You are correct.  Except once they accept Christ died on the cross for their sins and everything is forgiven, they no longer want to continue to live in their former life style.  They still may have the temptation to do it and get instant pleasure and gratification from it, but they no longer have the desire to continue in that life style.   

Their desire now is to grow spiritually, to live a selfless life, to love everyone and to bring others to Jesus Christ.  Spiritual growth takes time and it is not easy.



So.....If a person accepts Jesus Christ and continues to commit major sins then it is said he never truly did?

And.... IF a person accepts Jesus Christ and doesn't commit major sins then it is said he truly did?

So this Preacher who was the head of a BIG Church a few month ago, who did meth, commit adultery with a man, and cast down judgment as a pastor and routinely represented the word of God.....  he never truly accepted Jesus?


I have a friend, who is a pastor (non-denominational) , who I've known for 20 years.   He build a church.  Is raising 4 daughters.  Lives as much of a Christian life as i could imagine.  Does not own a TV, all women in family were dresses etc....   

Almost a year ago his wife left him.  Not for another man, but just divorced him because she was unhappy.  So my friend proceeds to start drinking, womanizing, and going to strip clubs and has been doing to this day. 

So here we have a another pastor, who has truly accepted Jesus, who's sins now as a result of his perceived separation from God.  I assert that if he needs the "gifts that accepting Jesus gives you" not to sin then he never was truly in heart desiring not to sin.

See that's where the problem with this view of salvation is:   There are few consequences and it's all too easy to label someone one way or anther:  "well then he never truly accepted Christ" or "You see, he's changed because of accepting Christ"

My point is this:  People change when they make up their minds in their hearts to change.   they draw on the power of  God to do this and accepting Christ is one of many ways to do it.  So when something happens like with my friend, His issue with God, doesn't change how he lives his life.

This is why, among many other reasons, i refute it as the only way.


OzmO,
Why do you say that Jesus did not feel worry or fear?  How do you know he didn't?  I know that Jesus felt pain, physical and emotional pain, sorrow, maybe worry and maybe fear too.

He knew the future.  So Jesus knew what He was about to endure which extended all of these unpleasant feelings.


You ever play a video game loco?   It's like you play the game and you know you cannot die.  That's what an Omnipotent God would be dealing with on earth.   It's like playing a video game.



Why then did Jesus go through all of this, having committed no sin?  For you, Ozmo.  So you can enjoy fellowship with God in this life and so that you can be with Him in the life to come.


That's available to anyone anytime.  But it isn't the only way and the other ways are not set up as Christians like to make them out to be:  Impossible because of original sin and that god, will not accept you unless you are free of sin.  I know it says that in the Bible, but as we been discussing it's not the 100% word of God.

OzmO

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #183 on: April 26, 2007, 09:20:42 AM »
Yes, very interesting, isn't it?  The God of the Old Testament seems angry, strict and judgemental.  The God of the New Testament seems loving, laid back and kind.  It's like two different Gods. 

I now understand why and I will get into that later.

OzmO,
just out of curiosity, why do you keep bringing up that God killed 3000 people?  God has killed many more than that.  Remember the flood?  God killed the entire world of the time, except for Noah and his family.  Back then the world's population wasn't that much, but I'm sure it was way more than 3000 people, and I'm sure that included women and children. 

Genesis 8:20-21
"Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and, taking some of all the clean animals and clean birds, he sacrificed burnt offerings on it. The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: ‘Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.’"

I keep bringing it up because it's something you and i have talked about.  I know there are other things.  Besides the way he kills 3000 people here is a good example of:  "why the God of Exodus in some parts" isn't God in my opinion.

loco

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #184 on: April 26, 2007, 09:33:33 AM »
OzmO, now I have some questions for you because I'm really curious:

This is why, among many other reasons, i refute it as the only way.

Do you believe that faith in Jesus Christ is A WAY to heaven?  You do not believe that this plan of salvation is ridiculous and laughable? 

the Bible, but as we been discussing it's not the 100% word of God.

What percentage of the Bible do you believe is the word of God?  Can you quote which parts of the Bible you believe to be God's word?

the God of Exodus in some parts" isn't God in my opinion.

In what parts of Exodus is the God of Exodus God?

OzmO

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #185 on: April 26, 2007, 10:40:34 AM »
OzmO, now I have some questions for you because I'm really curious:

Do you believe that faith in Jesus Christ is A WAY to heaven?  You do not believe that this plan of salvation is ridiculous and laughable? 

What percentage of the Bible do you believe is the word of God?  Can you quote which parts of the Bible you believe to be God's word?

In what parts of Exodus is the God of Exodus God?


I believe that when the student is ready the Teacher Appears.

I believe that different people respond, based on their culture, moral compass, and personal experiences, upbringing etc..  to different approaches and that God makes it available to them, in different religions, so they can, if they so chose to pursue it.   For Example:  A young man in India, see his life as wicked and sinful decides to change his life.  he does this by committing himself to the consistent set of moral principles you see in nearly every religion.  What religion it is doesn't matter as much as he's decided to change and has decided to govern his life based on a living a good moral life.  At this point he allows God to enter his life.

To me there is no difference in that versus accepting Jesus.  People still fall from grace in both accounts, people still get back on track, etc....   It's the exclusivity  of "Jesus is the only way" i refute as on another thread an estimated 80 billion souls will not go.  What makes the "accepting Jesus way" faulty is that there is no accountability other after that fact speculation of whether or not he "truly" was accepting Jesus.  It's as if it promotes not being responsible for one's actions..... The devil made me do it and I'm still saved anyway.


What percentage of the Bible do i believe is the word of God?   I dunno, I'd have to see and review again everything statement in there, maybe 80%.  I do know this:  The God in Exodus who ordered the death of 3000 people is NOT God.   Remember, History is written by the victors,  maybe someone had to justify their "War Crimes".   People have been doing it that way, Saying it was God who told them,  since the begging of time.

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #186 on: April 26, 2007, 10:56:40 AM »

I believe that when the student is ready the Teacher Appears.

I believe that different people respond, based on their culture, moral compass, and personal experiences, upbringing etc..  to different approaches and that God makes it available to them, in different religions, so they can, if they so chose to pursue it.   For Example:  A young man in India, see his life as wicked and sinful decides to change his life.  he does this by committing himself to the consistent set of moral principles you see in nearly every religion.  What religion it is doesn't matter as much as he's decided to change and has decided to govern his life based on a living a good moral life.  At this point he allows God to enter his life.

To me there is no difference in that versus accepting Jesus.  People still fall from grace in both accounts, people still get back on track, etc....   It's the exclusivity  of "Jesus is the only way" i refute as on another thread an estimated 80 billion souls will not go.  What makes the "accepting Jesus way" faulty is that there is no accountability other after that fact speculation of whether or not he "truly" was accepting Jesus.  It's as if it promotes not being responsible for one's actions..... The devil made me do it and I'm still saved anyway.


What percentage of the Bible do i believe is the word of God?   I dunno, I'd have to see and review again everything statement in there, maybe 80%.  I do know this:  The God in Exodus who ordered the death of 3000 people is NOT God.   Remember, History is written by the victors,  maybe someone had to justify their "War Crimes".   People have been doing it that way, Saying it was God who told them,  since the begging of time.

What do you believe are these people's motivation to change for the better, to seek God?  What do you believe is their goal?  If they keep from sin, why do they do it?  If they help the needy, why do you believe they do it?

At some point during Greek civilisation, the Greeks believed that it was okay and perfectly moral for adult men to have sex with little boys.  That is totally unacceptable in our society.  How does this fit into your believe system?  Who sets the standards?  Are there any absolutes?

Do you believe in life after death?

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #187 on: April 26, 2007, 11:12:42 AM »
What do you believe are these people's motivation to change for the better, to seek God?  What do you believe is their goal?  If they keep from sin, why do they do it?  If they help the needy, why do you believe they do it?

Because deep down inside everyone is good, they know right from wrong and they realize they have been leading a life that's short of their potential both spiritually and physically.  They see the error of their ways and how it's affected other people they care about, they mature, etc...  the problem with some is they lose touch with God in there hearts and become fearful, hateful, murderous etc...  they regress.


At some point during Greek civilisation, the Greeks believed that it was okay and perfectly moral for adult men to have sex with little boys.  That is totally unacceptable in our society.  How does this fit into your believe system?  Who sets the standards?  Are there any absolutes?


Not all moral codes or cultures morals are in every religion.  But there are consistent codes in every religion.  Sex with boys produces a victim as a results so it would morally unacceptable.   What  you talking about their has more to do with culture.  And yes, some cultures are barbaric.

so yes there are absolutes.  "No victims"  thou shall not kill, steal, etc...


Do you believe in life after death?

Yes.

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #188 on: April 26, 2007, 11:53:30 AM »
Because deep down inside everyone is good, they know right from wrong and they realize they have been leading a life that's short of their potential both spiritually and physically.  They see the error of their ways and how it's affected other people they care about, they mature, etc...  the problem with some is they lose touch with God in there hearts and become fearful, hateful, murderous etc...  they regress.

So what is their reward for doing good, for keeping from doing evil?

Not all moral codes or cultures morals are in every religion.  But there are consistent codes in every religion.  Sex with boys produces a victim as a results so it would morally unacceptable.   What  you talking about their has more to do with culture.  And yes, some cultures are barbaric.

so yes there are absolutes.  "No victims"  thou shall not kill, steal, etc...

What would be your answer to these questions from a Greek of those days?

"How does my behavior produce a victim?  The boy is not being killed"

"What if the boy is willing and enjoys it?"

"If the boy is born and brought up in a society where this behaviour and life style is acceptable, how is he a victim?  Would he not accept it too?"

"Who are you to tell me that what I'm doing is evil?"

Yes.

Do you believe in a "heaven" and a "hell"?  Who goes where and why?

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #189 on: April 26, 2007, 12:09:31 PM »
So what is their reward for doing good, for keeping from doing evil?


If you are doing it for a reward then in your heart you are not doing for the right reasons.  (examples the 2 pastors) You are not true to yourself.  That's where eternal salvation becomes a sales pitch rather then something you are aspiring to as a human and a spirit.


What would be your answer these questions to a Greek of those days?

"How does my behavior produce a victim?  The boy is not being killed"

"What if the boy is willing and enjoys it?"

"If the boy is born and brought up in a society where this behaviour and life style is acceptable, how is he a victim?  Would he not accept it too?"


Sexual relationships between adults and children have been proven to be harmful to the child.   Anything harmful produces a victim.  Kids do not know better and should be protected from adult things until they are past the age of consent.

Do you believe in a "heaven" and a "hell"?  Who goes where and why?

In the traditional Bible view of Fire and the Devil Reigning over your soul for eternity, no.   I believe that's a metaphor to what happens when you don't grow spiritually or do things in your life that caused great pain to others like killing a young girl, living a life of stealing, child molestation etc...   You are in a spiritual Hell so to speak.

I believe in heaven.

I believe we determine where we go by the choices we make in our lives and we atone for the bad choices we make after we die.  We are here to help one another, have compassion, love, and grow spiritually.  It is a gift that god has given us,  Life on Earth, we should cherish it every day we are granted the experience of breathing, of helping people, nurturing children, parenting, feeling the sun's warmth etc...Love.








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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #190 on: April 26, 2007, 12:43:49 PM »
If you are doing it for a reward then in your heart you are not doing for the right reasons.  (examples the 2 pastors) You are not true to yourself. 

I believe we determine where we go by the choices we make in our lives and we atone for the bad choices we make after we die

So good, non-Christians determine that they'll go to a paradise by their good choices?  Does this not motivate them at all?  Does this not play a role at all in their good choices?

That's where eternal salvation becomes a sales pitch rather then something you are aspiring to as a human and a spirit.

But we had already established that Christians don't do good things expecting a reward or eternal salvation in exchange, since it is a free gift from God and they already have it, correct?  God says something like...and this is in my own words...

"here is free eternal life.  It's yours.  You can't do anything to earn it, and you can't do anything to keep it.  Now start living a selfless life.  Be a good example and do good unto others so that they too can have this free eternal life when they ask you to give a reason for your good actions and for your faith.  It's not about you.  It's about them, those who do not yet have this eternal life."

Then how is eternal salvation a sales pitch?

Sexual relationships between adults and children have been proven to be harmful to the child.   Anything harmful produces a victim.  Kids do not know better and should be protected from adult things until they are past the age of consent.

Who proved this and how?  Through scientific studies?  Are these studies perfect?

Was this fact proven in our society or in this earlier Greek society?  Had these studies been conducted in a society where this life style was accepted as good and moral by everybody, would the results have been different?

Do we base morality on studies? Before this fact was proven, was it good and moral for these adults to have sex with little boys?

In the traditional Bible view of Fire and the Devil Reigning over your soul for eternity, no.   I believe that's a metaphor to what happens when you don't grow spiritually or do things in your life that caused great pain to others like killing a young girl, living a life of stealing, child molestation etc...   You are in a spiritual Hell so to speak.

Is this spiritual Hell a place where these people go after they die?  Do they stay there for ever?  Or are they punished there for a while, then go to a paradise?

I believe in heaven.

I believe we determine where we go by the choices we make in our lives and we atone for the bad choices we make after we die.  We are here to help one another, have compassion, love, and grow spiritually.  It is a gift that god has given us,  Life on Earth, we should cherish it every day we are granted the experience of breathing, of helping people, nurturing children, parenting, feeling the sun's warmth etc...Love.

How good do you have to be to go to this heaven?  What's the ratio of good vs. evil in your life that determines whether you go there or not?  Is there a scale of good deeds from say, 1 - 1000 with a line somewhere in the middle that you must go over in order to make it to heaven?

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #191 on: April 26, 2007, 01:04:14 PM »
So good, non-Christians determine that they'll go to a paradise by their good choices?  Does this not motivate them at all?  Does this not play a role at all in their good choices?


I believe all people do.

Why are you good?  Becuase you don't want to go to hell or because it's not the right thing to do or  It's not the "higher" thing to do?  (example:  pastor #2)


But we had already established that Christians don't do good things expecting a reward or eternal salvation in exchange, since it is a free gift from God and they already have it, correct?  God says something like...and this is in my own words...

"here is free eternal life.  It's yours.  You can't do anything to earn it, and you can't do anything to keep it.  Now start living a selfless life.  Be a good example and do good unto others so that they too can have this free eternal life when they ask you to give a reason for your good actions and for your faith.  It's not about you.  It's about them, those who do not yet have this eternal life."

Then how is eternal salvation a sales pitch?


If you do "__________________"  (which will be what ever the religion requires) you will get "________________"   That's a sales a pitch.


Who proved this and how?  Through scientific studies?  Are these studies perfect?

Was this fact proven in our society or in this earlier Greek society?  Had these studies been conducted in a society where this life style was accepted as good and moral by everybody, would the results have been different?


Are you seriously asking this question or are you just trying to debate my point by discrediting the idea that sex with children and adults is bad for the children?

Let's keep it real here, loco. 


Is this spiritual Hell a place where these people go after they die?  Do they stay there for ever?  Or are they punished there for a while, then go to a paradise?


I don't know.  Haven't been there,  at least that i can remember.....but i was audited once  ;D


How good do you have to be to go to this heaven?  What's the ratio of good vs. evil in your life that determines whether you go there or not?  Is there a scale of good deeds from say, 1 - 1000 with a line somewhere in the middle that you must go over in order to make it to heaven?

I don't know loco.  I don't have all the answers.  So your series of questions leading to the "i dunno" eventually hit target. 

If i ask you the same questions you'll just respond with a Bible quote.  Becuase you believe the bible was written by God, even though it contradicts itself.  I bet i could do the same with other religious books.  that in it's self doesn't make it true. 

But i do know this:

I do believe in God.  I believe in the after life, heaven and hell.   And from what religions have been presented to me over the course of my life, conflicts, save some some moral constants.   There  in lies some truth.  Not the whole truth, but what ever that is, i believe it.


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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #192 on: April 26, 2007, 01:37:49 PM »
I believe all people do.

All people go to a paradise after they die, or all good people are motivated to do good by the idea of being rewarded by being allowed to enter this paradise after they die?

Why are you good?  Becuase you don't want to go to hell or because it's not the right thing to do or  It's not the "higher" thing to do?  (example:  pastor #2)

Neither.  I do good and abstain from evil because I do not want other people to go to hell.  It's not about me.  It's about them.

If you do "____have faith in what Jesus DID______________"  (which will be what ever the religion requires) you will get "____the free gift of eternal life___"   

That's a sales a pitch.

Okay, but it is not the sales pitch that you are talking about, eternal life if you do good works.  I was asking you what motivates you and others like you to do good works.

Are you seriously asking this question or are you just trying to debate my point by discrediting the idea that sex with children and adults is bad for the children?

Let's keep it real here, loco. 

I am seriously asking those questions.  You do not have to answer if you don't want to, but I would appreciate it if you do.  They are legitimate questions.  Sex with children is bad, but that's not the point or the question.

I don't know.  Haven't been there,  at least that i can remember.....but i was audited once  ;D

I don't know loco.  I don't have all the answers.  So your series of questions leading to the "i dunno" eventually hit target. 

If i ask you the same questions you'll just respond with a Bible quote.  Because you believe the bible was written by God, even though it contradicts itself.  I bet i could do the same with other religious books.  that in it's self doesn't make it true. 

But i do know this:

I do believe in God.  I believe in the after life, heaven and hell.   And from what religions have been presented to me over the course of my life, conflicts, save some some moral constants.   There  in lies some truth.  Not the whole truth, but what ever that is, i believe it.

My series of questions are not meant to lead you to the "i dunno" eventually.  I just want to know what you believe.  You have asked me many questions, but I have not asked you that many questions in comparison.  You have a general idea of what Christians believe, but I had no idea what exactly you believe.

I still would like to see your answers to the questions above regarding morality.

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #193 on: April 26, 2007, 02:56:55 PM »
I did not forget the rest.  You quoted the Bible saying that they piled bodies and burnt them as a burnt offering to God.  Where did you get that?  Is not in the Bible, is it?  How do you know they didn't bury the human bodies first, or outside the city?  This is very significant because God did require burnt offering of animals, vegetables and "things", but never human flesh.  So where did you get your earlier quote from?

Where did that quote come from?  Not from the Bible.  Where does it say to pile up bodies and burn them as an offering to God?  The God of the Bible never required human sacrifice.  God forbids it.  Even after asking Abraham to offer his son, God stopped him. 

This is what the Bible passage says, and it's talking about burning things, not people:

Deuteronomy 13:16  (King James Version)
16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

Deuteronomy 13:16 (New King James Version)
And you shall gather all its plunder into the middle of the street, and completely burn with fire the city and all its plunder, for the LORD your God. It shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again

Deuteronomy 13:16 (New International Version)
Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.

Deuteronomy 13:16 (New American Standard Bible)
Then you shall gather all its booty into the middle of its open square and burn the city and all its booty with fire as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God; and it shall be a ruin forever. It shall never be rebuilt.


I was just paraphrasing what it said. It doesn't say that the inhabitants are buried. The "booty" or "plunder" or "spoils" would include the human beings. In the Old Testament humans were considered "spoils of war".

Read Numbers chapter 31. In this chapter God tells Moses to go to war against the Midianites. Moses sends 12,000 troops to war against the Midianites and conquers them. They are all taken as captives and brought to Moses and Moses was asked what should be done to them. Here is what Moses said...

Numbers 31:15
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

Numbers 31:16
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

Numbers 31:17      
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Numbers 31:18

But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Moses tells the soldiers to kill every male child and every women who has had sex with another man and to keep the rest "alive for themselves" and we all know what THAT means!

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #194 on: April 26, 2007, 05:10:57 PM »
I was just paraphrasing what it said. It doesn't say that the inhabitants are buried. The "booty" or "plunder" or "spoils" would include the human beings. In the Old Testament humans were considered "spoils of war".

You were doing what?  Paraphrasing?  Yeah, sure you were. 

So if it doesn't say that the inhabitants are buried, that means that they were not buried?  No, it doesn't mean that. 

The "booty" or "plunder" or "spoils" would include the human beings? Why?  That's false in general, but even in this one passage it is false.  Here God is being very specifics about to do with each one separately: "people", "livestock" and "plunder". 

Wikidudeman,
Is it necessary for you to paraphrase the Bible in order to make your point?  Why do you have to resort to deception and why do you have to put words in God's mouth?  Do you realize what this does to your credibility?

Numbers 31:18
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Moses tells the soldiers to kill every male child and every women who has had sex with another man and to keep the rest "alive for themselves" and we all know what THAT means!

We all know that THAT means?  Really?  What does it mean?  That those virgins became sex slaves?  It doesn't say that, does it?  Above you said that if the Bible doesn't say it, it didn't happen.  Again, you are being manipulative to make your point.  If according to you, the Bible is full of errors and contradictions, why are you having to interpret, paraphrase and add to God's word to make your point?  You shouldn't have to do that to prove your point, right?

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #195 on: April 26, 2007, 05:57:22 PM »
All people go to a paradise after they die, or all good people are motivated to do good by the idea of being rewarded by being allowed to enter this paradise after they die?

No, my point with this is that, people who are in touch with "god" inside them don't do evil things.  And that applies to all people.


Neither.  I do good and abstain from evil because I do not want other people to go to hell.  It's not about me.  It's about them.


That's why i think you are a good and great person for the most part until you get judgmental which is infrequent on this forum.


If you do "____have faith in what Jesus DID______________"  (which will be what ever the religion requires) you will get "____the free gift of eternal life___"   

Okay, but it is not the sales pitch that you are talking about, eternal life if you do good works.  I was asking you what motivates you and others like you to do good works.


It's a sale pitch none the less.  I understand even Jesus had to sell salvation. 


I am seriously asking those questions.  You do not have to answer if you don't want to, but I would appreciate it if you do.  They are legitimate questions.  Sex with children is bad, but that's not the point or the question.


Perhaps you should take the direct approach. 

Do you believe a child is harmed if an adult forces or seduces the child to have sex with them?  If the answer is yes, then there isn't anything more to talk about if that's what you wanted to know.  Or maybe you can think of another example to make your point.


My series of questions are not meant to lead you to the "i dunno" eventually.  I just want to know what you believe.  You have asked me many questions, but I have not asked you that many questions in comparison.  You have a general idea of what Christians believe, but I had no idea what exactly you believe.

I still would like to see your answers to the questions above regarding morality.



I pretty much answered them.

But let me just say this:

I believe we are all subject to the truth no matter who we are or what we believe.  And that truth is found in all religions, just that some have more of it than others.

I don;t believe anyone has the right to tell another what the truth is becuase until they die there is no way to know it.  I remember long ago, when i was 15, a Pastor telling me that i was going to go to hell becuase at the time, i was catholic.  Who does he thing he is?  Does he know God's thoughts.......

Also i have serious beefs with organized religions.  For all the good they do, they also, manipulate, and control by their nature and create doctrine that's designed to bring money into the church, to attract and keep followers.  They much like whores in my opinion.

I believe we are a magnificent creation, not perfect, of course, but that's what's living is about, it's about growing.  the way i hear it from many christains, you all have serious self esteem issues.  That religion doesn't always fuel growth in my opinion.  We all should be proud of being his creation, not feeling inadequate.

i believe religion should be personal, not something "sold" to others.  Charity organizations should exsits over churches.  think of the Trillions the Roman Catholic Church Possesses.  It's disgusting.  Almost all churches are like this the only difference is the amount of wealth they have.   

Maybe this will answer some future questions.

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #196 on: April 27, 2007, 06:26:28 AM »
Perhaps you should take the direct approach. 
 
Do you believe a child is harmed if an adult forces or seduces the child to have sex with them?  If the answer is yes, then there isn't anything more to talk about if that's what you wanted to know.  Or maybe you can think of another example to make your point.
I pretty much answered them.

OzmO,
I still have questions about things you said earlier and about your believes.  I'm just trying to understand.  You and I both believe that adult men having sex with little boys is evil.  No question about it.

At some point during Greek civilisation however, the Greeks believed that it was okay, good and perfectly moral for adult men to have sex with little boys.  That is totally unacceptable in our society today.

But the Bible had already established long before their time that adult men having sex with little boys was detestable and an abomination.

I asked you...

What would be your answer to these questions from a Greek of those days?

"How does my behavior produce a victim?  The boy is not being killed"

"What if the boy is willing and enjoys it?"

"If the boy is born and brought up in a society where this behaviour and life style is acceptable, how is he a victim?  Would he not accept it too?"

"Who are you to tell me that what I'm doing is evil?"

To which you answered...

Sexual relationships between adults and children have been proven to be harmful to the child.


Question:   Is that why this life style is wrong and immoral to you?  Is morality determined by scientific studies and proof?  Was that life style good, moral and acceptable before proof that it harms the child was provided?

I believe that this life style is, and was always wrong and immoral because the Bible said so long before.

You also said...

I believe that different people respond, based on their culture, moral compass, and personal experiences, upbringing etc..

To these Greeks, in their culture, in their time, according to their moral compass, their personal experiences and their upbringing, that life style was good and moral. 
 
Question:  Based on your quote above, do you believe that this life style was good and moral during that time and in that culture?  If your answer is no, how does that not contradict your statement above?
 
I believe that no matter my culture, society I live in, time in history I live in, my moral compass, my personal experiences, the Bible establishes what is moral and what's immoral.  The Bible is the final authority in my life and not the above.
 
You also said...
 
No, my point with this is that, people who are in touch with "god" inside them don't do evil things.  And that applies to all people.

How does this apply to these Greeks?  Did the "god" inside of them tell them that having sex with little boys was good and moral?  Because that society did believe that it was good and moral.
 
OzmO, I know that you believe that adult men having sex with little boys is evil, and so do I. 
 
Question:  Had you lived in that society in those days,  would you have believed that this life style was good and moral?
 
I would not have, because as I said before, I go by what the Bible says and the Bible says that it is detestable and an abomination.
 
This is a great example for my questions and my points because here you have a society of civilized people, known for their philosophy, education, intelligence, very advanced civilisation for their time, known for trusting and following logic rather than myth and fairy tales.  Yet, they adopt this life style as good and moral.
 
Did they have access to the Bible in those days?  Sure, they did.  They are the ones who had the Old Testament translated from Hebrew to Greek.
 
The above example can apply to many immoral things that are accepted in our society today as moral.  So I cannot trust the little voice("god") inside of me to tell me what's moral if it contradicts the Bible, as it did in the case of these Greeks.  And I will not just sit and wait for a scientific study to prove to me what's moral and what's immoral, as it happened in this case.

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #197 on: April 27, 2007, 07:34:37 AM »
Question:   Is that why this life style is wrong and immoral to you? 

yes

Question:    Is morality determined by scientific studies and proof? 

yes and no.

Question: Was that life style good, moral and acceptable before proof that it harms the child was provided?

From what i understand it was acceptable, i don;t know if it was considered moral.  Adultery is certainly part of our culture but we don't consider it moral.



To these Greeks, in their culture, in their time, according to their moral compass, their personal experiences and their upbringing, that life style was good and moral. 
 

This what i said:


I believe that when the student is ready the Teacher Appears.

I believe that different people respond, based on their culture, moral compass, and personal experiences, upbringing etc..  to different approaches and that God makes it available to them, in different religions, so they can, if they so chose to pursue it.   For Example:  A young man in India, see his life as wicked and sinful decides to change his life.  he does this by committing himself to the consistent set of moral principles you see in nearly every religion.  What religion it is doesn't matter as much as he's decided to change and has decided to govern his life based on a living a good moral life.  At this point he allows God to enter his life.


What i was talking about here was how people's desire for spiritual answers are provided by God in form of many different religions in different cultures and environments through the world. And that in each of these religions there are moral constants, the same ones you find in the Bible.  Sex with boys is not a moral constant or absolute.   I wasn't trying to justify Greek culture concerning sex with boys.

Question:  Based on your quote above, do you believe that this life style was good and moral during that time and in that culture? 

No.


Question:   If your answer is no, how does that not contradict your statement above?

That statement is not part of what we are talking about now.  Hopefully you understand what i was getting at there.


I believe that no matter my culture, society I live in, time in history I live in, my moral compass, my personal experiences, the Bible establishes what is moral and what's immoral.  The Bible is the final authority in my life and not the above.

I respect that, although in my mind, my morals are governed by my heart.  And becuase God is in my heart, he's always there to guide me.  i believe we all are born with knowing right from wrong, much of what stems from the question of whether or not you are harming someone else.  We are all born with the spirit of God inside us.  (maybe you can find something in the bible on that  :))


You also said...
 
How does this apply to these Greeks?  Did the "god" inside of them tell them that having sex with little boys was good and moral?  Because that society did believe that it was good and moral.
 

That's like asking the question did the God inside Cho at VT tell him to do that....  Of course not.  The spirit of god is available to anyone who seeks it and when they look they see it was never apart from them.  These men who had sex with boys may have not felt any inkling of wrong doing becuase fo what their culture taught them.  They also may have not been in any way in touch with God inside them.  Not all men had sex with boys....not all men commit adultery.  So many people in this world, and i'm sure you'll agree, are so spiritually detracted.  Probably wasn't much different then.


OzmO, I know that you believe that adult men having sex with little boys is evil, and so do I. 
 
Question:  Had you lived in that society in those days,  would you have believed that this life style was good and moral?
 

I wouldn't believed it was moral becuase i would have saw the boys suffering.  Remember not to confuse a small part of that culture with every man living in Greece at the time.


This is a great example for my questions and my points because here you have a society of civilized people, known for their philosophy, education, intelligence, very advanced civilisation for their time, known for trusting and following logic rather than myth and fairy tales.  Yet, they adopt this life style as good and moral.


i agree, that's why culture's progress, societies progress.  That's what ultimately this Internet will do for the world.....help it progress.  You remember 16th century Japan?  Killing was normal.  The value of life was viewed differently.



Did they have access to the Bible in those days?  Sure, they did.  They are the ones who had the Old Testament translated from Hebrew to Greek.


Access wouldn't be the same as it is today and why would they want to?  Why would they give any credit to it?  Remember, not all religions are good, almost all have some truth in them, moral consistencies, but some have very few.  In that culture, although they had access, base on their upbringing, environment, culture, the ordinary Greek wouldn't pay any mind to it.

This is where most christains are out of touch with reality.  They think because it was around back then or even now that people have no excuse.  Is that why you believe 80 billion will go to hell?



The above example can apply to many immoral things that are accepted in our society today as moral.  So I cannot trust the little voice("god") inside of me to tell me what's moral if it contradicts the Bible, as it did in the case of these Greeks.  And I will not just sit and wait for a scientific study to prove to me what's moral and what's immoral, as it happened in this case.

It's not a little voice,  it's more of a feeling.  You need a book, written thousands of years ago that's full of manipulation, violence, etc... I guess, to tell you what's right and wrong, and i don't.  I trust the voice of God and what God gave me, the sense of right and wrong,  not someone else's interpretation which in organized religion is for the purpose of promoting and growing the said church. 

I don't need a scientific study to know when someone is suffering do you?  (you asked for proof, so i said "scientific study", but real the proof is in the boy's suffering)






Butterbean

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #198 on: April 27, 2007, 11:04:06 AM »
What I've read of this conversation has been really interesting thanks guys.  I don't mean to interrupt (much  ;D ) so if you want I could start a new thread but I have a couple quick questions for OzmO that were brought up in this thread.

OzmO, you say that you believe that only about 80% of the bible is correct.  I'm curious to know what criteria determine what makes you accept something as true or not in the bible.

Also, you said you were audited once.  Was that regarding Scientology?  If so, would you tell us about it?  What were your feelings and opinions on the process?  I've heard it's kind of like a lie detector test.  Would you compare it to that?
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OzmO

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Re: " All-loving God "
« Reply #199 on: April 27, 2007, 11:21:16 AM »

OzmO, you say that you believe that only about 80% of the bible is correct.  I'm curious to know what criteria determine what makes you accept something as true or not in the bible.


What i mean is, that 80% of what is in the bible is the "word" of God, and the other "20%" is organized religious agenda created by Man.  Like Paul's letters.  80% is just a guess,  i'd have tore-read the whole thing and analyze it...something that would take months.  Sorry i don't have time.

Here's an example loco and i have been talking about:   God creates evil.   I don't think he does directly.  I think he's put us in the world where we can be subject to evil things from the choices of otehrs.  But i don't think he purposely & directly creates evil such as serial killers, child molesters, and wars. 

Same thing with the 3000 murdered by Moses.

The bible is great book with much of God in it, but it isn't the 100% word of God.


Also, you said you were audited once.  Was that regarding Scientology?  If so, would you tell us about it?  What were your feelings and opinions on the process?  I've heard it's kind of like a lie detector test.  Would you compare it to that?

Where did Scientology come from in this?   ??? ??? ??? ???  I'm no scientologist.

I was audited by the Sate of California for employee payroll and tax records.   I was off by .16 cents  :).  But it was scary.  :)