Author Topic: low volume and training more often (Read 2379 times)

NoCalBbEr · « **on:** May 17, 2007, 09:47:34 PM »

hey guys
I was wondering, if I lower the volume down to 3 exerise and 3 sets each for a total of 9 working set per bodypart. can I train 6 days aweek and train muscle 2 x a week and still be able to make gain?? or just train once a week. one muscle group per day for mon- sat?? I need to make better gains. most bodybuilders train 6 days. I dont do cadio at all due to the fact that I dont gain fat and I'm lean year round. My gaol right now, if to compete at a local show next june.
Thanks

BigFish · « **Reply #1 on:** May 17, 2007, 10:20:30 PM »

Why not train hard for three days take a day for rest and then go three more again? My workouts don't revolve around a seven day week anymore. It's a revolving 4 day week. Hit it heavy and hard for three day take a day for rest and then do it all over again. Some people think the 'less is more' approach is the best and may work for them but i think like anything in life you get what you give. Especially if you want to compete, i would make sure that your life revolves around your workout schedule and not the other way around.

overcome · « **Reply #2 on:** May 18, 2007, 01:44:22 AM »

Quote from: BigFish on May 17, 2007, 10:20:30 PM

Why not train hard for three days take a day for rest and then go three more again? My workouts don't revolve around a seven day week anymore. It's a revolving 4 day week. Hit it heavy and hard for three day take a day for rest and then do it all over again. Some people think the 'less is more' approach is the best and may work for them but i think like anything in life you get what you give. Especially if you want to compete, i would make sure that your life revolves around your workout schedule and not the other way around.

agreed, i had a workout that was like this
day 1, chest & back
- flat bench, incline, and decline(db on a different one each time) seated rows, weighted pull ups and behined the neck pull downs
2, legs & lower back
-squats, leg press, deads, calf raises, leg ext superset with leg curl
3, arms shoulders and traps
-db military press or arnold press, upright rows, dips, drag curls, shrugs superset with side rais, and skull crushers superset with curls.

you could also change the days to
1chest bi's
2legs
3back tri's

good luck if you try it

4, rest or light cardio(walking or a jog)

pumpster · « **Reply #3 on:** May 18, 2007, 05:27:00 AM »

Quote from: NoCalBbEr on May 17, 2007, 09:47:34 PM

hey guys
I was wondering, if I lower the volume down to 3 exerise and 3 sets each for a total of 9 working set per bodypart. can I train 6 days aweek and train muscle 2 x a week and still be able to make gain??

Yes definitely, IF the intensity's high meaning no wasted sets going through the motions-going to failure on each set and/or going beyond failure on one set per exercise. All that matters is increasing the reps/weights and/or shortening rests between sets. Put legs in a middle day in order to avoid consecutive days of upper body work. Assuming good protein intake needed to gain "good" bodyweight.

Try that 6 day cycle for a while, then also try a slight variation-what was mentioned, a 4 day cycle including a rest day at the end of each 3 days of work, then repeat. I'm not big on once a week per muscle, especially when using moderate sets like this.

On smaller muscles with more frequent training, you can even try less than 9 sets, say 5-7 sets for bis, tris, etc., again assuming high intensity that fatigues the muscle significantly on each set. With less sets, choose exercises that you know or try and find are proven effective in hitting the muscle intensely, no wasted sets with less than top exercises. On larger muscles try 9 sets or slightly higher/lower as well, compare the effect. As far as sets done per exercise, set a total number of sets to be done for each muscle and leave yourself leaway to go high or low on each exercise-for example you can do 2-4 sets on a particular exercise, leaving X number of sets to be done on other exercises, to satisfy the overall sets goal for the muscle.

nzmusclemonster · « **Reply #4 on:** May 18, 2007, 05:30:49 AM »

If you are doing high intensity the worst thing you can do is increase your training frequency.

Traing more than 3 times a week is overtraining...

pumpster · « **Reply #5 on:** May 18, 2007, 05:32:33 AM »

Quote from: nzmusclemonster on May 18, 2007, 05:30:49 AM

If you are doing high intensity the worst thing you can do is increase your training frequency.

Traing more than 3 times a week is overtraining...

How do you know he's doing HIT? Also there's no rule about 3 x weekly, it depends on what's the split is and the degree of intensity and volume.

Even WITH HIT it's best not to make assumptions about what can or can't be done-try different frequencies on ANY program, each for a decent amount of time, and compare the effect before deciding which is best.

nzmusclemonster · « **Reply #6 on:** May 18, 2007, 05:37:09 AM »

Quote from: pumpster on May 18, 2007, 05:32:33 AM

How do you know he's doing HIT? Also there's no rule about 3 x weekly, it depends on what's the split is and the degree of intensity and volume.

Even WITH HIT it's best not to make assumptions about what can or can't be done-try different frequencies on ANY program, each for a decent amount of time, and compare the effect before deciding which is best.

This may be true for professionals... but for Joe Trainer, 3 times a week is plenty (if you train hard)

pumpster · « **Reply #7 on:** May 18, 2007, 05:40:01 AM »

Quote from: nzmusclemonster on May 18, 2007, 05:37:09 AM

This may be true for professionals... but for Joe Trainer, 3 times a week is plenty (if you train hard)

IMO it's better not to make assumptions about what works and just experiment with the variables for a while each and see what happens. HIT was kind of a counter-culture thing, in which case it too shouldn't be held in such high regard that rules must always be followed, just as Yates modified it to his own liking after some experimentation. The whole idea that the cns can't take more than a certain amount in a period of time is just a theory.

Just my opinion.

nzmusclemonster · « **Reply #8 on:** May 18, 2007, 05:42:33 AM »

Quote from: pumpster on May 18, 2007, 05:40:01 AM

As i said, it's better not to make assumptions and just experiment with the variables for a while each and see what happens. HIT was kind of a counter-culture thing, in which case it too shouldn't be held in such high regard that rules must always be followed just as Yates modified it to his own liking after some experimentation. Just my opinion.

Indeed, very good statement...

thewickedtruth · « **Reply #9 on:** May 18, 2007, 06:02:32 AM »

I do 6-9 sets fo the small stuff and 10-12 for the big stuff twice a week on my routine schedule and it's working beautifully. You've got to get a good regimen peg'd that will hit all your body parts hard but give them each 3-4 days off before you hit them again. I go 3 days on, 1 off and I'm growing like a weed. GOTTA PUT THAT FOOD DOWN THOUGH! If you're not pounding the food and SMART food choices, you'll just spin you wheels.

BigFish · « **Reply #10 on:** May 18, 2007, 11:35:18 AM »

Quote from: thewickedtruth on May 18, 2007, 06:02:32 AM

I do 6-9 sets fo the small stuff and 10-12 for the big stuff twice a week on my routine schedule and it's working beautifully. You've got to get a good regimen peg'd that will hit all your body parts hard but give them each 3-4 days off before you hit them again. I go 3 days on, 1 off and I'm growing like a weed. GOTTA PUT THAT FOOD DOWN THOUGH! If you're not pounding the food and SMART food choices, you'll just spin you wheels.

I am right there with you and the 3 on 1 off works for me too and combined with high food and protein intake the growth is excellent. Like Pumpster said though experiment with some of our suggestions and find what works best for you.

I like the idea of throwing legs in between my 2 days of upper body workouts, i'm gonna have to give that a try.

thewickedtruth · « **Reply #11 on:** May 18, 2007, 11:38:22 AM »

Quote from: BigFish on May 18, 2007, 11:35:18 AM

I am right there with you and the 3 on 1 off works for me too and combined with high food and protein intake the growth is excellent. Like Pumpster said though experiment with some of our suggestions and find what works best for you.

I like the idea of throwing legs in between my 2 days of upper body workouts, i'm gonna have to give that a try.

that's what I do and LOVE IT! I do one shoulder exercise on chest day and another on back day at teh end of each workout and my shoulders are blowing the fuck up! LOVING this routine. It allows me to hit everything hard twice a week like I want with plenty of rest. THE FOOD INTAKE IS THE KEY PART or else you'll burn out quick. I just started using too so I hope that helps with recovery like I want it to. But basically with this same setup, there's 32 total days of rest for the worked bodyparts which is more than enough to recover whatever damage an hours worth of weightlifting does.

NoCalBbEr · « **Reply #12 on:** May 18, 2007, 01:33:40 PM »

Thx guys
I guess everyones is in agreement that 3 on 1 off is the best way to go. which is close to what I'm currently doing: mon,tu,th,fr,sat.

I'm not doing HIT at all. I'm just doing lover volume to hit muscles more often. I have tried HIT but it didnt work for me.

pumpster · « **Reply #13 on:** May 18, 2007, 01:38:46 PM »

Quote from: NoCalBbEr on May 18, 2007, 01:33:40 PM

I'm not doing HIT at all. I'm just doing lover volume to hit muscles more often. I have tried HIT but it didnt work for me.

I think someone confused "intensity" on standard training with HIT. Happens a lot, as if only HIT is intense.

3 on one off and repeat is a winner, with or without the day off each time.

NoCalBbEr · « **Reply #14 on:** May 18, 2007, 03:14:39 PM »

yea i know. theres people that does HIT but no intensity at all. and theres people that use high intensity with high volume.

thewickedtruth · « **Reply #15 on:** May 18, 2007, 03:38:57 PM »

Quote from: NoCalBbEr on May 18, 2007, 03:14:39 PM

yea i know. theres people that does HIT but no intensity at all. and theres people that use high intensity with high volume.

IF you're not sweatin and breaking your own balls, why are you even in the gym?

Not you in particular but I hate people that go in and "lift to stay fit" cuz "they don't want o get big"

25LB DUMBBELL CURLS WON'T GET YOU BIG ASSHOLE!

If you're serious at all about training for size or strength, you've got to have some sort of degree of intensity or you'll be stuck shopping in the little kid's section of the weight stack forever.

pumpster · « **Reply #16 on:** May 18, 2007, 03:43:43 PM »

Quote from: thewickedtruth on May 18, 2007, 03:38:57 PM

IF you're not sweatin and breaking your own balls, why are you even in the gym? Not you in particular but I hate people that go in and "lift to stay fit" cuz "they don't want o get big"

25LB DUMBBELL CURLS WON'T GET YOU BIG ASSHOLE! If you're serious at all about training for size or strength, you've got to have some sort of degree of intensity or you'll be stuck shopping in the little kid's section of the weight stack forever.

Exactly...I LOVE THE CURRENT TREND CLAIMING THAT YOU SHOULDN'T GO TO FAILURE ("EWWWW").

THEY NEVER EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING TO CREATE THE CHANGE THOUGH.

thewickedtruth · « **Reply #17 on:** May 18, 2007, 03:47:04 PM »

Quote from: pumpster on May 18, 2007, 03:43:43 PM

Exactly...I LOVE THE CURRENT TREND CLAIMING THAT YOU SHOULDN'T GO TO FAILURE ("EWWWW").

THEY NEVER EXPLAIN EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING TO CREATE THE CHANGE THOUGH.

well it depends on what you consider failure too. For instance lat pull downs. My new goal is to hit 280 for 6 when I give it a legit go. If I only hit 3-4 or hell even bomb out for 6, I went to failure! If I can't pull it anymore that's failure. BUT working into a NORMAL REP RANGE OF 4-12 OR EVEN 15 REPS with a weight isn't a bad idea. BUT if you're curling some light ass weight for 50reps saying you're working to failure, I'm not going ot listen to another moronic word that comes out of your mouth when it comes to training. *not you pumpster, I mean in general*

pumpster · « **Reply #18 on:** May 18, 2007, 03:48:24 PM »

Quote from: thewickedtruth on May 18, 2007, 03:47:04 PM

well it depends on what you consider failure too. For instance lat pull downs. My new goal is to hit 280 for 6 when I give it a legit go. If I only hit 3-4 or hell even bomb out for 6, I went to failure! If I can't pull it anymore that's failure. BUT working into a NORMAL REP RANGE OF 4-12 OR EVEN 15 REPS with a weight isn't a bad idea. BUT if you're curling some light ass weight for 50reps saying you're working to failure, I'm not going ot listen to another moronic word that comes out of your mouth when it comes to training. *not you pumpster, I mean in general*

Failure - can't do another full rep. The muscle's temporarily fatigued. Not related to numbers of reps.

Postive failure (normal definition) - as above

Negative failure - go beyond what you can do in normal fashion by using cheats, rest-pause, negatives, etc. - best to use this occassionally, not on every set!!!

thewickedtruth · « **Reply #19 on:** May 18, 2007, 03:57:35 PM »

Quote from: pumpster on May 18, 2007, 03:48:24 PM

Failure - can't do another full rep. The muscle's temporarily fatigued. Not related to numbers of reps.

Postive failure (normal definition) - as above

Negative failure - go beyond what you can do in normal fashion by using cheats, rest-pause, negatives, etc. - best to use this occassionally, not on every set!!!

I'd like to see the hard ass worth anything in the gym that trains like that.

mdgkmg · « **Reply #20 on:** May 19, 2007, 01:18:10 PM »

i like twice a week training for the mental effect. i feel more jacked all week training twice. for growth though i seem to do better smashing each muscle once a week for some reason. thought i never did consider less volume twice a week. like 4-9 sets twice a week something like that. might give it a shot. do to budget for food right now that kinda thing i'm kinda having to stick to a few pushups and curls and crunches something to just stimulate the muscle a bit.

NoCalBbEr · « **Reply #21 on:** May 19, 2007, 05:15:14 PM »

Quote from: thewickedtruth on May 18, 2007, 03:38:57 PM

IF you're not sweatin and breaking your own balls, why are you even in the gym? Not you in particular but I hate people that go in and "lift to stay fit" cuz "they don't want o get big"

25LB DUMBBELL CURLS WON'T GET YOU BIG ASSHOLE! If you're serious at all about training for size or strength, you've got to have some sort of degree of intensity or you'll be stuck shopping in the little kid's section of the weight stack forever.

I'm like the only one sweatin my balls out in the gym. I read that some pros make sure that the weat through the tank tops when training. so I use it as a rule, to sweat each workout and if I'm not somethings wrong..

should I stay add in the training technique like pre-exhause, supersets and etc or is it just too hard on the muscles to recover from?

natural al · « **Reply #22 on:** May 19, 2007, 06:37:01 PM »

Quote from: NoCalBbEr on May 17, 2007, 09:47:34 PM

hey guys
I was wondering, if I lower the volume down to 3 exerise and 3 sets each for a total of 9 working set per bodypart. can I train 6 days aweek and train muscle 2 x a week and still be able to make gain?? or just train once a week. one muscle group per day for mon- sat?? I need to make better gains. most bodybuilders train 6 days. I dont do cadio at all due to the fact that I dont gain fat and I'm lean year round. My gaol right now, if to compete at a local show next june.
Thanks

didn't read the other replies but first thing I'll ask is how hard are you training? by the time you're done with your 3 sets of the first excersise how do you feel? if you feel fine you're probably not training very hard.

OA 6 days a week is too much if you're a natty, if you're enhanced you might be able to get away wih it.

NoCalBbEr · « **Reply #23 on:** May 19, 2007, 09:35:07 PM »

the question is, do I just do straight sets or can I still use the shock technique like pre-exhause, supersts or etc?

After the first, I usually start sweating and start to get a pump.

pumpster · « **Reply #24 on:** May 20, 2007, 04:36:04 AM »

Quote from: NoCalBbEr on May 19, 2007, 09:35:07 PM

the question is, do I just do straight sets or can I still use the shock technique like pre-exhause, supersts or etc?

After the first, I usually start sweating and start to get a pump.

Either way, do straight sets for a while, then try something like supersets and decide what works best, or rotate back and forth using each as a changeup to the other.