Disaster after following the TA principles.

[MisterMagoo]

delusional

note none of those sources involve athletes. he googled that up in a few minutes.

the lesson? the RDA guidelines are great if you're looking to weigh 170 pounds and live a slightly longer life, but if you plan on excelling at a sport of ANY type, look elsewhere.

[SteelePegasus]

I think you're right.  I wanted to believe it was that easy despite my better judgment.  I figured it could both be easy and I could get results.  I was dead wrong.  Even my face is skinnier than it used to be. 

Matt, I also cut my calories and mixed in cardio and to be honest I lost mostly fat..some muscle ofcourse.

[MisterMagoo]

This is where you failed

agreed. if we're using TA as our role model, he should have stopped training legs entirely. adonis claims to squat over 500 pounds but his legs are smaller than a runner's.

[240 is Back]

why does virtually everyone in the industry do it differently?

The diets dictated in the magazines are not what these guys eat.  3 meals of chik/rice, 3 moneytech shakes a day, right?

They cheat.  They drink coke after workouts.  They carry Red Bulls around shows, shoots, and sminars.  They're normal people like us.  They do take in a shitload more protein, and they do eat the good carbs in high quantity.  But they do have a little taste of adonis as well.

now, personally, I feel better when I eat clean.  My digestion system works better, and I have better energy at the end of 60 minute workouts.  I recently had a pizza/mountain dew weekend, and I felt like I had a rock in my stomach.  I am just not designed to eat shit food anymore, whether it be age, or just what I'm used to.  I like whey protein a few times daily, I like fish and rice for lunch most days, I like chicken something for dinner, and I like leftovers at night.  ice cream and candy just make me feel kinda crappy.


Now, that being said - how much difference in the chem composition is ice cream from whey protein?  how much difference between french fries and spanish rice?  prob not too much in the long run.  Chances are, Dennis James could live on Taco bell for a year, and I could live on whey and oatmeal for a year, and he's gonna beat me in the Mr getbig, so...

Both of you, TA and MC, have good points.

[The True Adonis]

note none of those sources involve athletes. he googled that up in a few minutes.

the lesson? the RDA guidelines are great if you're looking to weigh 170 pounds and live a slightly longer life, but if you plan on excelling at a sport of ANY type, look elsewhere.

Bodybuilders are not athletes and do not need more than a Sedentary person Nutrition wise as these studies suggest:
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/cabi/pns/1999/00000058/00000002/art00027

Optimal intakes of protein in the human diet
Author: Millward D.J.*

Source: Proceedings of the Nutrition Society, Volume 58, Number 2, 1999, pp. 403-413(11)

Publisher: CABI Publishing

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Abstract:

For protein, progress is slow in defining quantifiable indicators of adequacy other than balance and growth. As far as current requirements are concerned, only in the case of infants and children is there any case for revision, and this change is to lower values. Such intakes would appear to be safe when consumed as milk formula. In pregnancy, notwithstanding the concern that deficiency may influence programming of disease in later life, there is little evidence of any increased need, and some evidence that increased intakes would pose a risk. For the elderly there is no evidence of an increased requirement or of benefit from increased intakes, except possibly for bone health. For adults, while we now know much more about metabolic adaptation to varying intakes, there would appear to be no case for a change in current recommendations. As far as risks and benefits of high intakes are concerned, there is now only a weak case for risk for renal function. For bone health the established views of risk of high protein intakes are not supported by newly emerging data, with benefit indicated in the elderly. There is also circumstantial evidence for benefit on blood pressure and stroke mortality. With athletes there is little evidence of benefit of increased intakes in terms of performance, with older literature suggesting an adverse influence. Thus, given that a safe upper limit is currently defined as twice the reference nutrient intake, and that for individuals with high energy requirements this value (1·5 g/kg per d) is easily exceeded, there is a case for revising the definition of a safe upper limit.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=6571233&dopt=Citation

1: Clin Sports Med. 1984 Jul;3(3):595-604. Links
Protein nutrition for the athlete.Dohm GL.
Endurance exercise results in a protein catabolic state characterized by decreased protein synthesis, increased amino acid oxidation, and increased conversion of amino acids to glucose. The adaptive response to performance of strength exercise, on the other hand, results in an anabolic state in hypertrophying muscles, and the accretion of protein is the result of increased protein synthesis. Because of changes in protein metabolism there is an increased dietary requirement for protein in both endurance and strength exercise. However, the normal dietary intake of protein is adequate for athletes as long as the energy intake is sufficient to maintain body weight.
 There is little scientific evidence that consumption of large protein supplements will have any beneficial effect on muscle hypertrophy, muscular strength, or physical performance.
PMID: 6571233 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[240 is Back]

A five day, Mon-Fri program where all body parts were hit once per week, with arms hit twice.  Similar to the splits found here:
http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/5dayaweek.html

Good link.  What's your opinion of bodybuilding.com, Matt?

My question should have been - did you train differently when on the TA diet, than you did before starting it?  IE: Some people will start a new diet and HIT at the same time, and blame HIT when their diet was the true culprit, or vice versa.

However, I will admit that I missed training legs for four weeks in a row during that time.

You possibly lost a steady flow of the good stuff your brain gives you on leg day which benefit all otehr areas.  Others can speak more authoratively on the full body effects of leg days.

[MisterMagoo]

hey look, adam. i can google, too.

How Much Protein Do Athletes Need?
Lee Knight Caffery

A study done by Fern et. al (1991) showed that greater gains in body mass occur over four weeks of heavy weight training when young men consumed 3.3 versus 1.3 grams if protein per kilogram of body mass. In addition a study done by Meredith et al. (1992) found that a daily dietary supplement containing 23 grams of protein combined with weight training can enhance muscle mass gains relative to similar subjects who trained with out the supplement. Both of the studies show support for the belief that increased protein in the diet can help increase muscle mass, but it should be noted that these effects were found with a combination of intake and training. These two studies further indicated that a protein intake of about 1.7 - 1.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day, when combined with weight training will enhance muscle development compared with similar training with an intake of 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day (5.) However, it is important to note that there is little good evidence that the very high protein intakes (more than 2 grams per kilogram of body weight per day) typically consumed by strength athletes are beneficial. Moreover, it is possible to obtain this quantity of protein without special supplementation assuming a mixed diet containing sufficient energy is consumed.

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/Protein.htm

(1) Aronson, Virginia. (1989). Protein and Miscellaneous Ergogenic Aids. Physician and Sports Medicine, 14, 199-202.

(2) Clark, Nancy. (1991). How To Pack a Meatless Diet Full of Nutrients. Physician and Sports Medicine, 19, 31-34.

(3) Henderson, Doug. Nutrition and the Athlete. FDA Consumer, 21, 18-21.

(4) Houston, Michael. (1992) Protein and Amino Acid Needs of Athletes. Nutrition Today, 27, 36-38.

(5) Lemon, Peter. (1996). Is Increased Dietary Protein Necessary or Beneficial for Individuals with a Physically Active Lifestyle? Nutrition Reviews, 54, S169-S173.

(6) McCarthy, Paul. (1989). How Much Protein Do Athletes Really Need? Physician and Sports Medecine, 17, 173-175.

so... 2g of protein per kg of bodyweight. most people say 1g per pound of lean body weight. which is roughly the same.

survey says: you're an idiot.

[Disgusted]

Bodybuilders are not athletes and do not need more than a Sedentary person Nutrition wise as these studies suggest:
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/cabi/pns/1999/00000058/00000002/art00027

You are in............

[The True Adonis]

hey look, adam. i can google, too.

How Much Protein Do Athletes Need?
Lee Knight Caffery

A study done by Fern et. al (1991) showed that greater gains in body mass occur over four weeks of heavy weight training when young men consumed 3.3 versus 1.3 grams if protein per kilogram of body mass. In addition a study done by Meredith et al. (1992) found that a daily dietary supplement containing 23 grams of protein combined with weight training can enhance muscle mass gains relative to similar subjects who trained with out the supplement. Both of the studies show support for the belief that increased protein in the diet can help increase muscle mass, but it should be noted that these effects were found with a combination of intake and training. These two studies further indicated that a protein intake of about 1.7 - 1.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day, when combined with weight training will enhance muscle development compared with similar training with an intake of 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day (5.) However, it is important to note that there is little good evidence that the very high protein intakes (more than 2 grams per kilogram of body weight per day) typically consumed by strength athletes are beneficial. Moreover, it is possible to obtain this quantity of protein without special supplementation assuming a mixed diet containing sufficient energy is consumed.

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/Protein.htm

(1) Aronson, Virginia. (1989). Protein and Miscellaneous Ergogenic Aids. Physician and Sports Medicine, 14, 199-202.

(2) Clark, Nancy. (1991). How To Pack a Meatless Diet Full of Nutrients. Physician and Sports Medicine, 19, 31-34.

(3) Henderson, Doug. Nutrition and the Athlete. FDA Consumer, 21, 18-21.

(4) Houston, Michael. (1992) Protein and Amino Acid Needs of Athletes. Nutrition Today, 27, 36-38.

(5) Lemon, Peter. (1996). Is Increased Dietary Protein Necessary or Beneficial for Individuals with a Physically Active Lifestyle? Nutrition Reviews, 54, S169-S173.

(6) McCarthy, Paul. (1989). How Much Protein Do Athletes Really Need? Physician and Sports Medecine, 17, 173-175.

so... 2g of protein per kg of bodyweight. most people say 1g per pound of lean body weight. which is roughly the same.

survey says: you're an idiot.

Read your own study loser:

However, it is important to note that there is little good evidence that the very high protein intakes (more than 2 grams per kilogram of body weight per day) typically consumed by strength athletes are beneficial. Moreover, it is possible to obtain this quantity of protein without special supplementation assuming a mixed diet containing sufficient energy is consumed.

[Stavios]

I think you drank too much expensive wine tonight adonis

[The True Adonis]

Volume 20, Issue 7, Pages 689-695 (July 2004)
 
 14 of 19
 
 

Protein requirements and supplementation in strength sports
 
 
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Stuart M. Phillips   a*

 
Abstract
Daily requirements for protein are set by the amount of amino acids that is irreversibly lost in a given day. Different agencies have set requirement levels for daily protein intakes for the general population; however, the question of whether strength-trained athletes require more protein than the general population is one that is difficult to answer. At a cellular level, an increased requirement for protein in strength-trained athletes might arise due to the extra protein required to support muscle protein accretion through elevated protein synthesis. Alternatively, an increased requirement for protein may come about in this group of athletes due to increased catabolic loss of amino acids associated with strength-training activities. A review of studies that have examined the protein requirements of strength-trained athletes, using nitrogen balance methodology, has shown a modest increase in requirements in this group. At the same time, several studies have shown that strength training, consistent with the anabolic stimulus for protein synthesis it provides, actually increases the efficiency of use of protein, which reduces dietary protein requirements. Various studies have shown that strength-trained athletes habitually consume protein intakes higher than required. A positive energy balance is required for anabolism, so a requirement for “extra” protein over and above normal values also appears not to be a critical issue for competitive athletes because most would have to be in positive energy balance to compete effectively. At present there is no evidence to suggest that supplements are required for optimal muscle growth or strength gain. Strength-trained athletes should consume protein consistent with general population guidelines, or 12% to 15% of energy from protein.  
Keywords: hypertrophy, skeletal muscle, anabolism, protein turnover

 

[Stavios]

annoying and delusional

[SteelePegasus]

I think you drank too much expensive wine tonight adonis

maybe he was making 80K at the dog racing track

[MisterMagoo]

Read your own study loser:

However, it is important to note that there is little good evidence that the very high protein intakes (more than 2 grams per kilogram of body weight per day) typically consumed by strength athletes are beneficial. Moreover, it is possible to obtain this quantity of protein without special supplementation assuming a mixed diet containing sufficient energy is consumed.

pahahahahah

i did read it, dingbat. more than 2g of protein per kilogram. as i said, they say 2g/kg is plenty. most everyone on here will tell you 1g/lb of LEAN mass.

not to mention that, but unless you weigh 25kg, the study says you should take in significantly more than the RDA of 50g per day. even if i took in 0.8g/kg of bodyweight, that's 83g which is more than half again over the RDA. according to the study, 1.8g/kg of protein is better than 0.8, and that's 187g of protein per day, and that's actually MORE than i eat.

bingo bango, you're retarded. thanks for playing.

[Bast000]

i dropped 37 pounds, about 4+ inches off my stomach

Congratulations!  You're still Fat.

[SteelePegasus]

Congratulations!  You're still Fat.

lol..zack is a power lifter

[MisterMagoo]

http://www.drugfreesport.com/choices/nutrition/protein.html

Short duration high intensity sports. Research by Tarnopolsky et. al., 1992 showed that a moderately high protein intake of 1.4g/kg of body weight may be needed to keep the muscles of trained athletes in positive protein balance. Student athletes who restrict nutrient intake to lose weight for competition such as boxers, figure skaters, wrestlers, may have inadequate protein intake and this can be a limiting factor on performance (Murray and Horswill, 1997). Low intake of protein over a long period adversely affects muscle mass (Murray and Horswill, 1997).

shall we keep going?

[The True Adonis]

J Appl Physiol 64: 187-193, 1988;
8750-7587/88 $5.00
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Journal of Applied Physiology, Vol 64, Issue 1 187-193, Copyright © 1988 by American Physiological Society


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
ARTICLES


Influence of protein intake and training status on nitrogen balance and lean body mass
M. A. Tarnopolsky, J. D. MacDougall and S. A. Atkinson
Department of Physical Education and Pediatrics, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

The present study examined the effects of training status (endurance exercise or body building) on nitrogen balance, body composition, and urea excretion during periods of habitual and altered protein intakes. Experiments were performed on six elite bodybuilders, six elite endurance athletes, and six sedentary controls during a 10-day period of normal protein intake followed by a 10-day period of altered protein intake. The nitrogen balance data revealed that bodybuilders required 1.12 times and endurance athletes required 1.67 times more daily protein than sedentary controls. Lean body mass (density) was maintained in bodybuilders consuming 1.05 g protein.kg-1.day-1. Endurance athletes excreted more total daily urea than either bodybuilders or controls. We conclude that bodybuilders during habitual training require a daily protein intake only slightly greater than that for sedentary individuals in the maintenance of lean body mass and that endurance athletes require daily protein intakes greater than either bodybuilders or sedentary individuals to meet the needs of protein catabolism during exercise.

[MisterMagoo]

  Response from Josephine Conolly-Schoonen, MS, RD

Has over ten years of experience in Nutritrion, Dietetics, and Nutrition Education. She holds a faculty position in the Department of Family Medicine in the School of Medicine at the State University of New York-Stony Brook and has extensive experience as a national spokeswoman for the American Dietetic Association.


A sedentary person, a marathoner, and a body builder of the same weight most certainly have different protein needs. Protein requirements depend upon factors including body weight, body composition, rate of growth, physical activity level, type of physical activity, adequacy of energy and carbohydrate intake, and illness or injury. Research clearly indicates that protein needs for athletes are greater than the recommended 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight recommended for sedentary people.

Endurance exercise alters protein metabolism and increases amino acid oxidation leading to increased protein needs. The increase in need is dependent upon the intensity and duration of the exercise, with higher intensity and longer bouts of exercise associated with increased protein needs. Research supports a range in protein needs from 1.2 to 1.4 grams of protein per kilogram body weight for endurance athletes such as marathoners.[1,2]

Individuals such as body builders, who are using resistance training to increase muscle mass, require a protein intake greater than that recommended for sedentary people. The protein needs for athletes trying to increase their muscle mass range from 1.4 to 1.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. This increased need for protein, however, is much less than what most of these athletes assume it to be. In addition, these increased needs are easily met through traditional food sources.


References

   1. Carroll C. Protein and exercise. In: Rosenbloom C, ed. Sports Nutrition: A Guide for the Professional Working with Active People. 3rd ed. Chicago: The American Dietetic Association; 2000.
   2. Lemon P. Is increased dietary protein necessary or beneficial for individuals with a physically active lifestyle? Nutrition Reviews. 1996;54:S169-S175.
   3. Kleiner S. Bodybuilding. In: Rosenbloom C, ed. Sports Nutrition: A Guide for the Professional Working with Active People. 3rd ed. Chicago: The American Dietetic Association; 2000.
   4. Chandler R, Byrne H, Patterson J, Ivy J. Dietary supplements affect the anabolic hormones after weight training exercise. J Appl Physiol. 1994;76:839-845.
   5. Beals K, Manore M. Nutritional status of female athletes with subclinical eating disorders. J Am Diet Assoc. 1998;98:419-425.

dum de doo...

[Matt C]

So you are saying these Scientists are wrong and Muscletech is correct?  You are an idiot.  Why not read some real scientific journals? This is where all my info comes from.

No scientists say you're correct.  Stop claiming your information is backed by science when it's not.    You give rationalists and actual scientists a bad name because when they legitimately state something which is endorsed by science people say "Well science has been wrong in the past [reference TA]".  As a person who actually does endorse things which science truly proves, your misuse of the words "scientific", "logical", etc, offend me.  Science is not on your side.  Stop saying it is.

[sgt. d]

TA is the google champ

[The True Adonis]

http://www.drugfreesport.com/choices/nutrition/protein.html

Short duration high intensity sports. Research by Tarnopolsky et. al., 1992 showed that a moderately high protein intake of 1.4g/kg of body weight may be needed to keep the muscles of trained athletes in positive protein balance. Student athletes who restrict nutrient intake to lose weight for competition such as boxers, figure skaters, wrestlers, may have inadequate protein intake and this can be a limiting factor on performance (Murray and Horswill, 1997). Low intake of protein over a long period adversely affects muscle mass (Murray and Horswill, 1997).

shall we keep going?

You don`t need to feed the fat on your ugly body more protein.  You would be about 160 lbs or less lean.  Hope this helps in determining your protein requirements.

[The True Adonis]

  Response from Josephine Conolly-Schoonen, MS, RD

Has over ten years of experience in Nutritrion, Dietetics, and Nutrition Education. She holds a faculty position in the Department of Family Medicine in the School of Medicine at the State University of New York-Stony Brook and has extensive experience as a national spokeswoman for the American Dietetic Association.


A sedentary person, a marathoner, and a body builder of the same weight most certainly have different protein needs. Protein requirements depend upon factors including body weight, body composition, rate of growth, physical activity level, type of physical activity, adequacy of energy and carbohydrate intake, and illness or injury. Research clearly indicates that protein needs for athletes are greater than the recommended 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight recommended for sedentary people.

Endurance exercise alters protein metabolism and increases amino acid oxidation leading to increased protein needs. The increase in need is dependent upon the intensity and duration of the exercise, with higher intensity and longer bouts of exercise associated with increased protein needs. Research supports a range in protein needs from 1.2 to 1.4 grams of protein per kilogram body weight for endurance athletes such as marathoners.[1,2]

Individuals such as body builders, who are using resistance training to increase muscle mass, require a protein intake greater than that recommended for sedentary people. The protein needs for athletes trying to increase their muscle mass range from 1.4 to 1.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. This increased need for protein, however, is much less than what most of these athletes assume it to be. In addition, these increased needs are easily met through traditional food sources.


References

   1. Carroll C. Protein and exercise. In: Rosenbloom C, ed. Sports Nutrition: A Guide for the Professional Working with Active People. 3rd ed. Chicago: The American Dietetic Association; 2000.
   2. Lemon P. Is increased dietary protein necessary or beneficial for individuals with a physically active lifestyle? Nutrition Reviews. 1996;54:S169-S175.
   3. Kleiner S. Bodybuilding. In: Rosenbloom C, ed. Sports Nutrition: A Guide for the Professional Working with Active People. 3rd ed. Chicago: The American Dietetic Association; 2000.
   4. Chandler R, Byrne H, Patterson J, Ivy J. Dietary supplements affect the anabolic hormones after weight training exercise. J Appl Physiol. 1994;76:839-845.
   5. Beals K, Manore M. Nutritional status of female athletes with subclinical eating disorders. J Am Diet Assoc. 1998;98:419-425.

dum de doo...

This increased need for protein, however, is much less than what most of these athletes assume it to be. In addition, these increased needs are easily met through traditional food sources.

[MisterMagoo]

 

http://www.extension.iastate.edu/nutrition/sport/protein.html#intake

The recommended protein intake for the American population is 0.8 g/kg/day (~0.4 g/lb/day). However, athletes may have different needs depending on the duration and intensity of exercise, and frequency of training. Strength training athletes need about 1.4-1.8 g/kg/day (~0.6-0.8 g/lb/day) and endurance runners need about 1.2-1.4 g/kg/day (~0.5-0.6 g/lb/day) due to the stress on muscle fibers during exercise. In general, the recommended protein intake for athletes ranges from 1.0-1.8 g/kg/day (~0.4-0.8 g/lb/day) depending on the energy expenditure and demand of the exercise.

[The True Adonis]

Zack you are not an athlete or a power lifter.  You are a fat ass, who does 4 days a week in the gym.

You don`t need to eat like you are Lance Armstrong.  Put down the food.  Hope this helps.