PROOF YOU CAN GROW IN A CALORIE DEFECIT!!!!

[natural al]

BODYFAT!!!! AND THE CALORIES YOU DO COnsume.  Considering that we're talking about gaining 2-4lbs of muscle per year on a day to day basis it really isn't that much.

wouldn't the BF be used for more important things that the caloric deficiet is limiting?  I'm not an expert on this kind of stuff but wouldn't the bodies last priority be to add muscle in this scenerio?  especially once you get down to single digit BF levels, how much BF can you draw from in a day?  Let's say your maintanance level for calorie consumption is 2000-just a number off the top of my head-and you're taking in 800 calories a day, you're saying that BF is gonna make up for that 1200 calories and be able to build muscle at the same time?  why not just figure out you're maintinance level and eat that everyday, maintain bodily functions with food and let BF take up the muscle buiding slack?  isn't your metabolism eventually gonna slow down while on this extended caloric restriction?

[shiftedShapes]

wouldn't the BF be used for more important things that the caloric deficiet is limiting?  I'm not an expert on this kind of stuff but wouldn't the bodies last priority be to add muscle in this scenerio?  especially once you get down to single digit BF levels, how much BF can you draw from in a day?  Let's say your maintanance level for calorie consumption is 2000-just a number off the top of my head-and you're taking in 800 calories a day, you're saying that BF is gonna make up for that 1200 calories and be able to build muscle at the same time?  why not just figure out you're maintinance level and eat that everyday, maintain bodily functions with food and let BF take up the muscle buiding slack?  isn't your metabolism eventually gonna slow down while on this extended caloric restriction?

yes metabolism will slow, which may be one of the reasons for the longevity benefits of caloric restriction.

If you are stressing your muscles with intense lifting then rebuilding muscle will be a high priority task for the body

[natural al]

yes metabolism will slow, which may be one of the reasons for the longevity benefits of caloric restriction.

If you are stressing your muscles with intense lifting then rebuilding muscle will be a high priority task for the body

at expense of what?  how many calories does it take to repair the damage from an intense training session an then build additional mucle on top of that, not to mention BS was doing cardio on top of that, didn't he say his workouts were like 52 sets?  Ok, how many calories did he expend during that time?  Let's say 300, plus the cardio he did...let's say he burnt 200 calories doing that...so that leaves him 300 calories to maintain all of his bodily functions, plus supply energy to convert BF into glucose and all that other jive and you're gonna tell me that after all of that the body still has "building muscle" as a priority?  Again, unless one of you guys gets your lean body mass checked at point A takes in 800 calories for a few months drops down to say 6% BF, get's your LBM checked again and there is an increase I'm just not gonna buy it.....I'm not ripping you guys, it just doesn't add up to me.

[Andre Nickatina]

yes metabolism will slow, which may be one of the reasons for the longevity benefits of caloric restriction.

If you are stressing your muscles with intense lifting then rebuilding muscle will be a high priority task for the body

Training causes red blood cells to die. You must replace them. Exercise increases nutrient exchange. You will lose more than you gain in a caloric deficit.

[shiftedShapes]

at expense of what?  how many calories does it take to repair the damage from an intense training session an then build additional mucle on top of that, not to mention BS was doing cardio on top of that, didn't he say his workouts were like 52 sets?  Ok, how many calories did he expend during that time?  Let's say 300, plus the cardio he did...let's say he burnt 200 calories doing that...so that leaves him 300 calories to maintain all of his bodily functions, plus supply energy to convert BF into glucose and all that other jive and you're gonna tell me that after all of that the body still has "building muscle" as a priority?  Again, unless one of you guys gets your lean body mass checked at point A takes in 800 calories for a few months drops down to say 6% BF, get's your LBM checked again and there is an increase I'm just not gonna buy it.....I'm not ripping you guys, it just doesn't add up to me.

I actually said that I don't think BS gained any muscle from his picks.  At 800 cals a day + intense exercise I think you will lose BF and maintain your muscle, I agree that adding muscle will not be possible

this is not to say that adding muscle wouldn't be possible at 1800 cals for somebody with a maintenance level of 2200 or similar.

[natural al]

I actually said that I don't think BS gained any muscle from his picks.  At 800 cals a day + intense exercise I think you will lose BF and maintain your muscle, I agree that adding muscle will not be possible

this is not to say that adding muscle wouldn't be possible at 1800 cals for somebody with a maintenance level of 2200 or similar.

again I'm not an expert at this kind of stuff but it still doesn't add up number wise to me-I'm not fighting with you guys I'm just trying to make sense of this and understand where you're coming from.  Are there studies to support this?  Que up adonis with his google-fu....and no I'm not gonna search for it on my own.....

[The_Leafy_Bug]

I only did the 800 calories for a week due to the fact that my diet had to end the next week. I don't normally run it that low. Normally it is 1500 or so and as of now it is 2200 and im still losing weight from my rebound. I never said 800 cals was good for building muscle.

[shiftedShapes]

again I'm not an expert at this kind of stuff but it still doesn't add up number wise to me-I'm not fighting with you guys I'm just trying to make sense of this and understand where you're coming from.  Are there studies to support this?  Que up adonis with his google-fu....and no I'm not gonna search for it on my own.....

well to know if it added up numberwise we would really need to know exactly how the body prioritizes.  I'm not sure about that, I just know from personal experience that it is possible (not very strong proof to anyone else, I know), and I also know that caloire restricted mice have more muscle than their non-restricted peers, I could find the study on that if I had a little time (or you could find it if you wanted to run a search on my posts).  

Maybe Adonis has the info on the tip of his finger tips.

[natural al]

well to know if it added up numberwise we would really need to know exactly how the body prioritizes.  I'm not sure about that, I just know from personal experience that it is possible (not very strong proof to anyone else, I know), and I also know that caloire restricted mice have more muscle than their non-restricted peers, I could find the study on that if I had a little time (or you could find it if you wanted to run a search on my posts).  

Maybe Adonis has the info on the tip of his finger tips.

not to argue but mice aren't BB.....

I'm not a scientist, I'm not a dieting expert but I pay some attention to alot of things that go on here and other boards so I know a little bit.  I know you guys love to dog out anyone who's not single digit BF levels and that's fine....whatever gets you going....BUT I doubt "joe average" BB is gonna put on any significant muscle following this type of program, that's just an off the cuff observation.  Will you get leaner?   sure you will, I don't think anyone is debating that.  Problem is 9/10ths of the guys that come here want to be "big" so this type of program would never work for them.  Being lean is something that is secondary for most guys, most will worry about that when contest time rolls around. 

[Earl1972]

This thread should be renamed "Proof you can be delusional in a calorie defecit"!!

haha

E

[Earl1972]

Seriously guys i wanna know, would losing 2 inches off your calves while cutting be considered excessive if your bodyfat was not redicously high. Like even if you were at say near 20%, would you lose 2 inches?

maybe he didn't train calves, alot don't

E

[shiftedShapes]

not to argue but mice aren't BB.....

I'm not a scientist, I'm not a dieting expert but I pay some attention to alot of things that go on here and other boards so I know a little bit.  I know you guys love to dog out anyone who's not single digit BF levels and that's fine....whatever gets you going....BUT I doubt "joe average" BB is gonna put on any significant muscle following this type of program, that's just an off the cuff observation.  Will you get leaner?   sure you will, I don't think anyone is debating that.  Problem is 9/10ths of the guys that come here want to be "big" so this type of program would never work for them.  Being lean is something that is secondary for most guys, most will worry about that when contest time rolls around. 

most guys here want to look Muscular.  There are only two ways to do that, using drugs and getting huge, or staying natural and creating the illusion of size by cultivating some muscle growth and maintaining a very tapered waist line.  People are counfused and think that even though they are natural they can get huge and muscular but they end up looking like 240 or Squadfather, just a thick normal guy.

[Krankenstein]

You obviously have a good bit of expertise, but I think you and a lot of other subscribers to the conventional BBing wisdom of clean bulking and clean cutting are missing something.  You go on short intense diets and mannage to get to very low levels of subcutaneous BF but you don't diet long enough to lose the IAF and develop the tight waist that someone like buttsuck (why did you pick that name LOL) has.

Now another thing you neglect to consider is that buttsuck is not cutting water in these pics, so you should not attempt to gauge his BF by comparing him with contest prepped individuals who have cut water.

-sS

Actually....I dont "bulk" or "cut".  I hate those terms.  I maintain a reasonable bodyfat off season, and then go into contest diet mode.  I prescribe the opinion that those who are 'bulking' are simply using it as an excuse to be a fat POS.

[natural al]

If you were to blast off into outspace and land on a planet with more gravity then earth you would most certainly gain muscle. This is the purpose of a 7 day a week workout program with only one day rest for a muscle. It is the same reason astronauts must excercise when they are in space. Due to less gravity the muscle is not used and shrinks.

ummm....ok, what does that have to do with being in a defiecet and gaining muscle?  you put those guys on a planet with 3x earths gravity and limit thier calories and I'd bet that you'd have a bunch of tired guys on your hands, woulld they build musc....wait a sec, what the hell am I talking about, this is a completely hypothetical arguement and really has no bearing on anything we've discussed in this thread.  

explain what your statement hs to do with building muscle while training like a BB and doing cardio in a drastic caloric defieciet.

[Krankenstein]

You go on short intense diets and mannage to get to very low levels of subcutaneous BF but you don't diet long enough to lose the IAF and develop the tight waist that someone like buttsuck (why did you pick that name LOL) has.

Now another thing you neglect to consider is that buttsuck is not cutting water in these pics, so you should not attempt to gauge his BF by comparing him with contest prepped individuals who have cut water.

As a follow up....I agree about the water thing.  But thats something he (and Adam) should consider.  The chemistry behind water, sodium, carbs, etc. that happens when stepping on a stage.  This is not the traditional carbing up that was supposed to help for running.  Bodybuilders do not derive any benefit (so to speak) from the carb-up beyond a cosmetic change.  Agree?

[Krankenstein]

I know i wasn't lean enough and yes, i had vasculairty in my lower abs. I still had a good 5 pounds to go and even then i probably wouldn't have been lean enough. The point is the changes are coming. It has only been about 2 months. The changes have come faster due to being lean.

Again...HOW DID YOU GUAGE THIS 2% YOU CLAIM?  Care to answer that?  As far as why you dont do deadlifts...again....exp lain WHY.

[Krankenstein]

You can take steroids and eat a 1500 calorie diet and make excellent gains. Why? Because steroids increase protien synthesis, water retention, and protien synthesis doesn't stop in a calorie defecit.

Show the proof that it doesnt stop.  Show it on humans.  Show it on a trained athlete.

[Krankenstein]

Caliper (yes i know it is inaccurate but i see many visible changes too). As for deadlifts i never felt i got any real benefit out of them. You can only lift heavy with them if you have a huge waist and the leaner i got the harder they got. I was deadlifting over twice my body weight and it got to where i said what is the point? I felt the only they that got worked were my hamstrings and glutes and i was doing back day so i dropped them from my routine. I think isolation is the best way to stimulate a muscle.

I would submit that if you only felt them in the glutes and hams....that your deadlift was one of a stiff-legged variety.  As far as only being able to go heavy, try doing them high rep then.  You dont have to have a 'huge waist' to do them.  Thats just utter nonsense.  YOU may find them to be ineffective for you, but this does NOT apply to EVERYONE.  Just like your adam-ish ideas on dieting.  As a poke at you, I think you should be called The_Xerox_Bug because you spout things off almost verbatum of what Adam says.  Again, what you do is what you do.  You feel it works for you, so by all means GO AHEAD.  Just understand and ACCEPT that there is ONE RIGHT WAY to do things.  The 20+ years I have been involved in this mess has taught me that.

[Krankenstein]

If it stopped wouldn't you eventually die if you continued to eat 1500 calories? I don't know im just trying to connect the dots here, correct me if im wrong.

Actually.....this is the only study I have ever found on hypocaloric intake and muscle gain.  The thing here is, they did the study on somewhat untrained individuals.  So, who knows what will happen with someone who is currently exercising.

Effect of a Hypocaloric Diet, Increased Protein Intake and Resistance Training on Lean Mass Gains and Fat Mass Loss in Overweight Police Officers
Robert H. Demling, Leslie DeSanti

Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, Mass., USA

Address of Corresponding Author

Annals of Nutrition & Metabolism 2000;44:21-29 (DOI: 10.1159/000012817)

 goto top of page Key Words

    * Body composition
    * Nutrition
    * Milk protein isolates
    * Lean body mass

 goto top of page Abstract

We compare the effects of a moderate hypocaloric, high-protein diet and resistance training, using two different protein supplements, versus hypocaloric diet alone on body compositional changes in overweight police officers. A randomized, prospective 12-week study was performed comparing the changes in body composition produced by three different treatment modalities in three study groups. One group (n = 10) was placed on a nonlipogenic, hypocaloric diet alone (80% of predicted needs). A second group (n = 14) was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group (n = 14) treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. We found that weight loss was approximately 2.5 kg in all three groups. Mean percent body fat with diet alone decreased from a baseline of 27 ± 1.8 to 25 ± 1.3% at 12 weeks. With diet, exercise and casein the decrease was from 26 ± 1.7 to 18 ± 1.1% and with diet, exercise and whey protein the decrease was from 27 ± 1.6 to 23 ± 1.3%. The mean fat loss was 2.5 ± 0.6, 7.0 ± 2.1 and 4.2 ± 0.9 kg in the three groups, respectively. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of 4 ± 1.4 and 2 ± 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 ± 9% for casein and 29 ± 9% for whey, a significant group difference. This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate.

Copyright © 2000 S. Karger AG, Basel

[Joey Tito]

I am merely sharing my experiences in the 2 years i have been doing this. Im not trying to cram my beliefs down anyones throats but i do know one thing for certain and that is putting on excessive amounts of fat and thinking it is muscle has no benefit to you when you do cut down.

a/s/l?

[Krankenstein]

Putting on excessive amounts of fat and thinking it is muscle has no benefit to you when you do cut down.

There is no argument here on that.

[Krankenstein]

a/s/l?

HA HA HA HA....thats some old school AOL shit right there.

[Krankenstein]

I am here mainly to get rid of all the myths that circulate the community. Things like "you have to eat every 2 hours to maintain a positive nitrogen balance" or "you don't count plant protien because it is incomplete". These things are absurd and im tired of delusionites walking around telling them. This is partly why the bodybuilding community has a bad reputation.

My question would be this.....I think I saw that you maintain yourself on 1500 cals.  For one week do this:

Eat one meal at 1000, and another at 500.  Thats it.  Do this for one week straight.  If what you are claiming is true, then you should have no problem.  Yes?  You can even eat the 500 calorie meal after your workout because there are NUMEROUS studies on post workout nutrition.  Then again, you probably dont believe those either.

[Joey Tito]

I am here mainly to get rid of all the myths that circulate the community. Things like "you have to eat every 2 hours to maintain a positive nitrogen balance" or "you don't count plant protien because it is incomplete". These things are absurd and im tired of delusionites walking around telling them. This is partly why the bodybuilding community has a bad reputation.

What happened to your buttsuck gimmick?

[The True Adonis]

As I have said, and many others as well, step on stage.  Compare yourself to others.  See how your "non suffering" prep does for you.  You saw no change because you werent not lean enough.  The carb-up is PURELY cosmetic.  Also, there are numerous ways to do it.  Reasearch shitloading for example. 

You say you see striations when you get a pump.  If you were lean enough, the striations should show WITHOUT a pump.  See any in your legs?  How about the vascularity in the lower abs?  Can you see the division in the gastrocs yet?  Pinch your kidney area?  How thick is the skin?  That will tell you if you are lean enough.  How did you guage this 2% body-fat loss you claim?

Pretty much gonna wash my hands of this thread.  Again, until you go through the whole process, and not turn this into a "I look lean enough to pose in mens health" kind of thing, you really dont know what can happen.  The same goes for Adam. 

LOLOL Research Shitloading.  As if that is a scientific term. LOLOL Curt, you are killing me here!  I am rolling on the floor laughing.