The Real Deal on IFBB Judging

[NarcissisticDeity]

yes, because ND goes around with his nose up in the air acting like he is the only one on this board that knows anything and the rest of us are all idiots.

and it pisses me off.

you and me are both included in his stupid 99.9% of people are ignorant and only I am right bullshit.

the guy needs a lesson in reality.

he thinks everyone is stupid and we are NOT.

please I like having a judge here don't ruin this.

[lonewolf]

Were you on any of the panels that denied Shawn Ray an Olympia victory?  How did you vote?  

Yes I was. Shawn should have earned at least one Sandow in my opinion.

[Palpatine Q]

What is the difference between symmetry and proportion, in judging terms?

Hulkster raises a valid question in how does a guy with a badly torn bicep get straight firsts in the symmetry round?

[NarcissisticDeity]

What is the difference between symmetry and proportion, in judging terms?

Hulkster raises a valid question in how does a guy with a badly torn bicep get straight firsts in the symmetry round?

Again symmetry includes more than just left/right exactness and symmetry is NOT judged as a sole entity all rounds are physique rounds the same with the muscularity round and the posing rounds .

[McFarland]

Yes I was. Shawn should have earned at least one Sandow in my opinion.

You put him first? 

[Palpatine Q]

Again symmetry includes more than just left/right exactness and symmetry is NOT judged as a sole entity all rounds are physique rounds the same with the muscularity round and the posing rounds .

I wasn't asking you ND. we all know how you feel. i'm looking for an unbiased opinion

[lonewolf]

What is the difference between symmetry and proportion, in judging terms?

Hulkster raises a valid question in how does a guy with a badly torn bicep get straight firsts in the symmetry round?

Symmetry refers to the right and left sides of the body being in balance. Proportion refers to the body parts being in balance to each other eg. shoulders to chest , chest to arms etc.

[Hulkster]

Again symmetry includes more than just left/right exactness and symmetry is NOT judged as a sole entity all rounds are physique rounds the same with the muscularity round and the posing rounds .

even if it does, how can such a major tear not even be penalized even one point?

its bullshit.

everyone but you thinks so.

you are making a fool out of yourself in your love for dorian, you do realize this?

better stop posting and acting like you are the only one who knows anything. like always..

[lonewolf]

You put him first? 

Yes I did, and did I hear it from some of my colleages. I have to be honest I don't recall what year.

[NarcissisticDeity]

even if it does, how can such a major tear not even be penalized even one point?

its bullshit.

everyone but you thinks so.

you are making a fool out of yourself in your love for dorian, you do realize this?

better stop posting and acting like you are the only one who knows anything. like always..

A bicep tear wasn't a major tear it was a minor tear , Kevin Levrone had a major tear ( pec tear ) you can make a case for him not winning with a perfect score but he was the clear winner according to the JUDGES and again keep in mind all rounds are physique rounds in the ' symmetry ' round the guy with the best ' symmetry ' shouldn't win the round if he's lacking in other areas of the criteria .

and I may not know everything but recall I'm explaining this to you , so what does that tell you? 

[Palpatine Q]

Symmetry refers to the right and left sides of the body being in balance. Proportion refers to the body parts being in balance to each other eg. shoulders to chest , chest to arms etc.

Thanks dude.

What do you think of the judges going by a mathematical template of sorts, for judging purposes.

IE a consensus "ideal" physique is agreed upon, and contestants are rewarded or penalized as too how well they adhere, or stray, from the Ideal. this way there is a concrete equation and eliminates the gray area regarding symmetry and proportion.  Conditioning is easily judged so it's not a factor.

[NarcissisticDeity]

I wasn't asking you ND. we all know how you feel. i'm looking for an unbiased opinion

I am unbiased thats exactly how I can come to my conclusions I was rooting for Flex Wheeler in 1993 and when he lost I couldn't understand how this was ...........after doing some research I found out why .

[G o a t b o y]

So if I understand this right, there's no overt "fixing" going on, but Manion picks the head judge, who then decides the callouts based on how he wants the placements to go?  The rest of the judges are under enormous pressure to vote the same way as everyong else in order to be considered a "good judge" who knows what he's doing, and the easiest way to do that is to follow the head judge's lead via the callouts?

So Manion picks a head judge who will "play ball" and understands that Mu$cleTech paid a lot of money and expects their boy to win, the judges do as they're expected to, yet most everyone on the panel can claim there was no "fix". 

[shiftedShapes]

I hate the look of the distended abdomen. I think it has truly set bodybuilding back. It may be one of the reasons attendance has fallen off so greatly.

The results of recent pro shows indicate that most judges do not agree with you.  Have you spoken to other judges about this issue?  Do you think there is any chance of swaying the tide back in the direction of aesthetics and proportion?

Thanks,

sS

[NarcissisticDeity]

I will refrain from posting pictures of the horrendous bi out of respect for this thread.

but you are an idiot. just so you know.

you are not explaining anything. you are showing how stupid you really are.

You're the one asking how he can win the symmetry round with an asymmetrical bicep if you had ANY grasp how on the judging works you'd already know that SYMMETRY is NOT judged as a separate and distinct element from the other criteria , again I'm explaining this to YOU you're not explaining this to me, seriously you're the same guy who claimed Dorian lost the 1993 Mr Olympia that is indicative of ignorance of competitive bodybuilding .

[biceps]

So if I understand this right, there's no overt "fixing" going on, but Manion picks the head judge, who then decides the callouts based on how he wants the placements to go?  The rest of the judges are under enormous pressure to vote the same way as everyong else in order to be considered a "good judge" who knows what he's doing, and the easiest way to do that is to follow the head judge's lead via the callouts?

So Manion picks a head judge who will "play ball" and understands that Mu$cleTech paid a lot of money and expects their boy to win, the judges do as they're expected to, yet most everyone on the panel can claim there was no "fix". 

That is very accurate.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Everyone who cries ' fixed ' undermines the judges integrity and honesty , no wonder why no judges will post here. everyone thinks they know whats going on but when you get someone who does and explains it you don't like the answer and revert back to conspiracy theories .

[lonewolf]

So if I understand this right, there's no overt "fixing" going on, but Manion picks the head judge, who then decides the callouts based on how he wants the placements to go?  The rest of the judges are under enormous pressure to vote the same way as everyong else in order to be considered a "good judge" who knows what he's doing, and the easiest way to do that is to follow the head judge's lead via the callouts?

So Manion picks a head judge who will "play ball" and understands that Mu$cleTech paid a lot of money and expects their boy to win, the judges do as they're expected to, yet most everyone on the panel can claim there was no "fix". 

No. After initial callouts are made by the panel (usually after the top 5 are compared) Then the procedure follows that the head judge makes most of the calls. Many times this is done so that the competitors who are near the bottom get a call.
In many cases this does help a judge with his placings. There is no perfect system

[Palpatine Q]

No. After initial callouts are made by the panel (usually after the top 5 are compared) Then the procedure follows that the head judge makes most of the calls. Many times this is done so that the competitors who are near the bottom get a call.
In many cases this does help a judge with his placings. There is no perfect system

I think my system would be near-perfect.,

Just like dog shows.......the judges know EXACTLY what they are looking for and the one that comes the closest wins

[lonewolf]

The results of recent pro shows indicate that most judges do not agree with you.  Have you spoken to other judges about this issue?  Do you think there is any chance of swaying the tide back in the direction of aesthetics and proportion?

Thanks,

sS

I haven't been on an IFBB panel in 2 years so I really don't have much contact with the guys anymore

[Old-Skool]

I use to train/hang with Mohammed Makkawy... he used to know how to play game... in Montreal for '84 Ms. Olympia .... we went to the room where the judges had assembled... Mohammed ordered drinks for everyone (he had placed second in Olympia few weeks before)....

Julien Blommaert (IFBB President of Belgium who promoted '85 Olympia) was talking to all judges saying certain female BB'er will "never place as that bitch was rude to me in the elevator"... and you think this is JUST about physiques!  Judges people in blue blazers who like free travel, free hotels, free booze and food, and PERKS. Why screw up a good thing by going against the establishment. This is not new to bb'ing, and even worse now as the supplement $$$$$ has entered the fray.  Thnx.

[McFarland]

Yes I did, and did I hear it from some of my colleages. I have to be honest I don't recall what year.

What did "hearing it" from your colleagues consist of?  What were their arguments as to why he shouldn't have been placed first?  Were there particular judges that had been rubbed the wrong way by Shawn? 

[Chick]

Hmmm...this post keeps getting rejected.

And John Calascione starting this thread just when allegations of corrupt practices by Paul Chua and his coterie of crooked Asian judges is making the rounds...Looks like the spin doctors from the IFBB are hard at work!

Hey, Santonja!  Nobody's ever raised the spectre of crooked judging by your IFBB Judging Panels - only about your crooked Asian brethen, Paul Chua!!!

Nice theory...wrong...but nice none the less.

John hasn't judged in the IFBB in over 2 years, and was Wayne's right hand man with the PDI....he has no reason to lie, and certainly wouldn't be doing it at the request of the IFBB....

no conspiracy here......

[McFarland]

Nice theory...wrong...but nice none the less.

John hasn't judged in the IFBB in over 2 years, and was Wayne's right hand man with the PDI....he has no reason to lie, and certainly wouldn't be doing it at the request of the IFBB....

no conspiracy here......

I certainly don't detect one; he sounds as straight up as one could so far, IMO.  But this is great...I'm enjoying his candor.  Let's see what other insight we can gain from him.  John thanks for this opportunity so far.   

[muscleforlife]

Nice theory...wrong...but nice none the less.

John hasn't judged in the IFBB in over 2 years, and was Wayne's right hand man with the PDI....he has no reason to lie, and certainly wouldn't be doing it at the request of the IFBB....

no conspiracy here......

All I have to say is if John, after two years of NOT judging gets his stars, Vince G. should get his.
Sandra