Author Topic: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging  (Read 12109 times)

McFarland

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7930
  • Tastes Like WINNING
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #100 on: October 23, 2007, 08:04:03 PM »
All I have to say is if John, after two years of NOT judging gets his stars, Vince G. should get his.
Sandra

You judge, Sandra? 

Vince B

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12989
  • What you!
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #101 on: October 23, 2007, 10:13:59 PM »
John Calascione said:
Quote
my scores were absolutely accurate and became a pro judge from that point on. I was very fortunate

This is where the 'deviation' method of judging guarantees conformity and consensus. That is why the judges agree but many decisions are controversial.

It is possible but unlikely that all the judges get it wrong about who the winner should be. Therefore consensus is no guarantee that the best person will win. Goatboy is absolutely correct in his assessment of the callouts. The practice is well-known that the first 3 place-getters are called out first to compare. It is an easy matter to then select your first 3 from this group. Callouts can be refined to have the guy who should win in the middle of those 3. This is an extremely important matter in judging. I would like to see all judges secretly select the first callouts and then a consensus be chosen from what ALL the judges want. That is far better than letting the head judge take responsibility for the callouts.

What seems to be happening in most professional contests is that 'conditioning' is the main factor used to separate the competitors. This is because it is something that can be easily assessed, especially by judges sitting way too close to the bodybuilders. I have always felt the judges should be placed at least 10 rows back and separated so that no one can communicate with any other judge. Ideally there should be no audience for the prejudging. There should be no scoring of the posedown freeforall at the end, either. That was a way to correct 'errant' judges.

McFarland

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7930
  • Tastes Like WINNING
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #102 on: October 23, 2007, 10:26:49 PM »
John Calascione said:
This is where the 'deviation' method of judging guarantees conformity and consensus. That is why the judges agree but many decisions are controversial.

It is possible but unlikely that all the judges get it wrong about who the winner should be. Therefore consensus is no guarantee that the best person will win. Goatboy is absolutely correct in his assessment of the callouts. The practice is well-known that the first 3 place-getters are called out first to compare. It is an easy matter to then select your first 3 from this group. Callouts can be refined to have the guy who should win in the middle of those 3. This is an extremely important matter in judging. I would like to see all judges secretly select the first callouts and then a consensus be chosen from what ALL the judges want. That is far better than letting the head judge take responsibility for the callouts.

What seems to be happening in most professional contests is that 'conditioning' is the main factor used to separate the competitors. This is because it is something that can be easily assessed, especially by judges sitting way too close to the bodybuilders. I have always felt the judges should be placed at least 10 rows back and separated so that no one can communicate with any other judge. Ideally there should be no audience for the prejudging. There should be no scoring of the posedown freeforall at the end, either. That was a way to correct 'errant' judges.


Conditioning first.  Then proportion... then shape... Then size, if it ever actually comes down to it.  As a pro, they all have size.  Most all have proportion.  Shapes vary, but you know what to expect...so it's completely logical that conditioning should always be one of your most key indicators in picking a winner.  You can have a winner without alot of things but conditioning should never be one of them.  I say take every conditioned guy onstage first off and that's who you're picking from to be the champ.  I mean that's more or less what happens in a good first call out.  Sometimes you've got sleepers but they usually get it through the grape vine as to who they should be looking out for.  If they don't, then you didn't do your PR work and it's nobody's fault but your own.  This could be as simple as telling a friend that you know who knows people "Pssst...check this out."       

Vince B

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12989
  • What you!
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #103 on: October 23, 2007, 10:47:14 PM »
Should conditioning be more important than proportions? Size is also related to proportions. For example, athletes like Dexter with small calves suffer both size and proportion issues. Surely that deficiency is more important than conditioning, all other factors equal?

There just seems to be some sort of acceptance that certain physiques are superior regardless of balance and aesthetics. Gynocomastia has been mentioned as detracting from a physique. Just how does one go about deducting points for that aberration? Coleman won with gynocomastia and poor balance because of suspect calves. I mean, how can a guy be 'conditioned' yet have few cuts or striations in his gastrocnemius muscles?

Seems to me conditioning is the factor most judges can deal with. Assessing physiques on the other criteria can be rather difficult. It is much easier for the head judge to do the hard work and let the judges know who to vote for. This is the reality of most shows and why so many remain controversial.

McFarland

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7930
  • Tastes Like WINNING
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #104 on: October 23, 2007, 10:55:16 PM »
Should conditioning be more important than proportions? Size is also related to proportions. For example, athletes like Dexter with small calves suffer both size and proportion issues. Surely that deficiency is more important than conditioning, all other factors equal?

There just seems to be some sort of acceptance that certain physiques are superior regardless of balance and aesthetics. Gynocomastia has been mentioned as detracting from a physique. Just how does one go about deducting points for that aberration? Coleman won with gynocomastia and poor balance because of suspect calves. I mean, how can a guy be 'conditioned' yet have few cuts or striations in his gastrocnemius muscles?

Seems to me conditioning is the factor most judges can deal with. Assessing physiques on the other criteria can be rather difficult. It is much easier for the head judge to do the hard work and let the judges know who to vote for. This is the reality of most shows and why so many remain controversial.


Vince I'm with ya on the conditioning but I still think Dexter's calves are fine.  For me personally, I couldn't tell you there was anything wrong with Dexter's calves, because that never occurs to me when looking at his overall package.  Hell for all we know, if he had big calves we might need for something else to be bigger.  This may be a pretty unpopular opinion but you've got 2 schools of thought on Dexter, basically:  1) He's perfect, or 2) his calves suck.  I'm a member of the first and I think the second just needed to find something to bitch about.   

As for judging gyno, well, that just means they aren't ready yet.  But as long as you're not giving them first place, you can still place them above a few other guys with much lesser physiques than the guy having the gyno.  Gyno shouldn't make you automatically last, now should it? 

Just the way I see it, perhaps, but maybe you could too.

Disgusted

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 13610
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #105 on: October 23, 2007, 11:12:24 PM »
No offense to John, but to what purpose does any of this serve? Would anyone one here really expect him to come out and say that a show was fixed? Would it even last on this board. I don't fucking care if it's the IFBB the NPC, NABBA or PDI, there is no room for fixing shows. I can say on record that I have personally kown judges in the NPC, guys that I know, who have placed guys low because of their dislike for them and it goes on all the time. I know it to be true because I have heard it with my own ears so this much I stand by and always will. For someone to diet for months and have this kind of shit go on even once is intolerable, but unfortunatley it happens.

Danny

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4630
  • The original Superman
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #106 on: October 23, 2007, 11:13:44 PM »
Conditioning first.  Then proportion... then shape... Then size, if it ever actually comes down to it.  As a pro, they all have size.  Most all have proportion.  Shapes vary, but you know what to expect...so it's completely logical that conditioning should always be one of your most key indicators in picking a winner.  You can have a winner without alot of things but conditioning should never be one of them.  I say take every conditioned guy onstage first off and that's who you're picking from to be the champ.  I mean that's more or less what happens in a good first call out.  Sometimes you've got sleepers but they usually get it through the grape vine as to who they should be looking out for.  If they don't, then you didn't do your PR work and it's nobody's fault but your own.  This could be as simple as telling a friend that you know who knows people "Pssst...check this out."       

How do you judge  between a guy that's perfectly conditioned the day of the shpw but has a shitty build( no proportions, symmetry and shape whatsoever , for exemple Paco) and somebody else that is only 80% in terms of conditioning but has the other qualities to balance out the lack of 1100 % conditioning. Remember we're talking about somebody that's almost there in terms of conditioning ???
"What we do in life ECHOES in eternity "

Disgusted

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 13610
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #107 on: October 23, 2007, 11:45:20 PM »
Jesus it's not rocket science. It's personal preference, eye of the beholder, that type of thing. Some of you guys are making this way too complicated. Remeber, Jay won the Olympia. So there are times when even the judges get over ridden.

McFarland

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7930
  • Tastes Like WINNING
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #108 on: October 23, 2007, 11:56:20 PM »
How do you judge  between a guy that's perfectly conditioned the day of the shpw but has a shitty build( no proportions, symmetry and shape whatsoever , for exemple Paco) and somebody else that is only 80% in terms of conditioning but has the other qualities to balance out the lack of 1100 % conditioning. Remember we're talking about somebody that's almost there in terms of conditioning ???

I have a theory that on show day only one man will ever truly peak, condition-wise.  Or one in each class if it's not a pro show.  And when I say peak, I mean PEAK, like, the best we've ever seen of a guy and the best we're convinced we're GONNA see him.  Almost like Branch Warren at the New York Pro this year.  Almost.  Please don't let that analogy cloud what I'm trying to say here.  But it's something in the way the stars align.  If Paco were truly peaked he'd be the best combination of everything that day anyway.  He just would have been.   

McFarland

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7930
  • Tastes Like WINNING
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #109 on: October 23, 2007, 11:57:50 PM »
No offense to John, but to what purpose does any of this serve? Would anyone one here really expect him to come out and say that a show was fixed? Would it even last on this board. I don't fucking care if it's the IFBB the NPC, NABBA or PDI, there is no room for fixing shows. I can say on record that I have personally kown judges in the NPC, guys that I know, who have placed guys low because of their dislike for them and it goes on all the time. I know it to be true because I have heard it with my own ears so this much I stand by and always will. For someone to diet for months and have this kind of shit go on even once is intolerable, but unfortunatley it happens.

I could imagine a few legitimate motivations he might have at this point in his life.  Remember he has no curret ties to protect with them and everything to gain from us. 

Disgusted

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 13610
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #110 on: October 24, 2007, 12:04:26 AM »
I could imagine a few legitimate motivations he might have at this point in his life.  Remember he has no curret ties to protect with them and everything to gain from us. 

Then feel free to post your imagined legite motivations.  ;)

PANDAEMONIUM

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6583
  • Scourge of the Northern Gods
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #111 on: October 24, 2007, 12:07:14 AM »
Jesus it's not rocket science. It's personal preference, eye of the beholder, that type of thing. Some of you guys are making this way too complicated. Remeber, Jay won the Olympia. So there are times when even the judges get over ridden.

Right on J 8)

McFarland

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7930
  • Tastes Like WINNING
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #112 on: October 24, 2007, 12:15:11 AM »
Then feel free to post your imagined legite motivations.  ;)

   ::)

Jim come on Jim...

If judging's so simple, why'd it take you 35 posts to tell us why your boy Kamali deserved 8th in his last show?  ;D  Now we're making things "too complicated."  Here's something simple...anybody out of the top 6, I don't even put a number to. 

Disgusted

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 13610
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #113 on: October 24, 2007, 12:19:29 AM »
   ::)

Jim come on Jim...

If judging's so simple, why'd it take you 35 posts to tell us why your boy Kamali deserved 8th in his last show?  ;D  Now we're making things "too complicated."  Here's something simple...anybody out of the top 6, I don't even put a number to. 

Judging is very simple, more than you seem to realize. Come on Jeff I have a feeling that you realize this, but just like typing with one hand.  ;D BTW, I have never made a post about why King should have placed higher in any show.  :D

Vince B

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12989
  • What you!
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #114 on: October 24, 2007, 12:23:22 AM »
It wasn't that long ago that arms and calves were, ideally, the same size. When guys started getting ever larger arms, like Arnold, the standard was modified to allow arms to be slightly bigger than the calves. However, those two body parts should not be vastly different in size. If they are, then the proportions suffer because there is an inbalance.

During the last webcast of the Olympia they discussed Dexter and Charles Glass couldn't point out Dexter's fault of having small and high calves. A black guy with good balance re arms and calves is Vince Taylor.

According to the proportions criteria Dexter could not win the Mr Olympia with his current imbalance. Jay is much more balanced than Dexter. Ronnie Coleman is less balanced than Cutler.



GroinkTropin

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3138
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #115 on: October 24, 2007, 12:28:40 AM »
Serious question, one that has haunted me for years. In the 2001 olympia, how did ronnie come back and win the contest based on the night show? I was at that show, it was and is the only proffesional bodybuilding show I ever went to. I was disgusted that jay was robbed and lost all interest in becoming a pro bodybuilder, at the time that was what I had dreamed of doing since I was 14. DId you judge that show? Did ronnie win because he was just too big for jay I mean jay lead after the prejudging! ROnnie was holding sooo much water it was pathetic really and his gut was huge!

Laura Lee

  • Competitors II
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9954
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #116 on: October 24, 2007, 10:14:49 AM »
You may not believe this ,but there is a consistency what judges look for. The first of which is condition. Many times a competitor feels he or she is in the best condition of their life,bear in mind that condition is comparative
I dunno wolfie.  My first show the head judge told all the girls "we aren't looking for muscle here, don't be up there flexing cuz we aren't looking for that".  Majority of the girls went on stage trying to make themselves look "softer" and who ends up winning not only my class but the whole show?  The one girl who was up there standing hard and flexed.  The following show (2 months later, same place...almost all the same judges) not a word was said about looking for muscle or not looking for muscle.  No that I was in my best shape (cuz I know I wasn't) but I definitely was up there standing hard and flexed (because that's what they chose for the look 2 months prior) and what do they pic?  A beach bunny girl.  Someone who looked like she never stepped in a gym and just had a nice body.  All the bottom girls...myself included were harder.   I went to get my scores and was told by the head judge that I was too big and my structure would be better suited in bbing. (Which is what I am now doing)

What gives?  ???
:D Weee

McFarland

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7930
  • Tastes Like WINNING
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #117 on: October 24, 2007, 10:21:09 AM »
I dunno wolfie.  My first show the head judge told all the girls "we aren't looking for muscle here, don't be up there flexing cuz we aren't looking for that".  Majority of the girls went on stage trying to make themselves look "softer" and who ends up winning not only my class but the whole show?  The one girl who was up there standing hard and flexed.  The following show (2 months later, same place...almost all the same judges) not a word was said about looking for muscle or not looking for muscle.  No that I was in my best shape (cuz I know I wasn't) but I definitely was up there standing hard and flexed (because that's what they chose for the look 2 months prior) and what do they pic?  A beach bunny girl.  Someone who looked like she never stepped in a gym and just had a nice body.  All the bottom girls...myself included were harder.   I went to get my scores and was told by the head judge that I was too big and my structure would be better suited in bbing. (Which is what I am now doing)


What gives?  ???

"Still" natural, Laura?   ;D

Laura Lee

  • Competitors II
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9954
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #118 on: October 24, 2007, 10:25:41 AM »

Everyone already knows my breasts and nails are fake and my hair is dyed.  My eye are really green though.   ;D
:D Weee

McFarland

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7930
  • Tastes Like WINNING
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #119 on: October 24, 2007, 10:36:00 AM »
Everyone already knows my breasts and nails are fake and my hair is dyed.  My eye are really green though.   ;D

Works for me, dear.   :)  You're gonna like bodybuilding. 

Laura Lee

  • Competitors II
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9954
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #120 on: October 24, 2007, 10:39:26 AM »
Works for me, dear.   :)  You're gonna like bodybuilding. 
Thanks McFarland!  :D  I hope so!
:D Weee

garraeth

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2093
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #121 on: October 24, 2007, 10:55:05 AM »
While I appreciate the information from John, I'm not so sure I can swallow it hook line and sinker. While I do not understand the technicalities of Goatboy's example, I believe there is something to his theory.

I know that the WSM is rigged. There is no explicit cheating, but the events are all set up in the hopes that a specific athlete will win. That athlete usually does.

lonewolf

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 138
  • Getbig!
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #122 on: October 24, 2007, 12:49:14 PM »
What did "hearing it" from your colleagues consist of?  What were their arguments as to why he shouldn't have been placed first?  Were there particular judges that had been rubbed the wrong way by Shawn? 
Many of the judges felt that Shawn was dwarfed by Dorians size. I felt that Shawn had the greater detail and balance.
Major disagreement , but that's ok.

lonewolf

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 138
  • Getbig!
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #123 on: October 24, 2007, 12:54:55 PM »
I certainly don't detect one; he sounds as straight up as one could so far, IMO.  But this is great...I'm enjoying his candor.  Let's see what other insight we can gain from him.  John thanks for this opportunity so far.   
It's my pleasure. As I've said, I'm not here to bash or glorify. just give honest information.

lonewolf

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 138
  • Getbig!
Re: The Real Deal on IFBB Judging
« Reply #124 on: October 24, 2007, 01:04:57 PM »
No offense to John, but to what purpose does any of this serve? Would anyone one here really expect him to come out and say that a show was fixed? Would it even last on this board. I don't fucking care if it's the IFBB the NPC, NABBA or PDI, there is no room for fixing shows. I can say on record that I have personally kown judges in the NPC, guys that I know, who have placed guys low because of their dislike for them and it goes on all the time. I know it to be true because I have heard it with my own ears so this much I stand by and always will. For someone to diet for months and have this kind of shit go on even once is intolerable, but unfortunatley it happens.
I really have to tell you, and you may not believe me, but if I knew a contest was being fixed or was fixed , I would have raised holy hell and wouldn't have cared if I was thrown out on my ass.