Author Topic: Billions of Missing Links  (Read 14026 times)

Dos Equis

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2007, 06:48:48 PM »
Beach Bum, I have a book for you. It's by Michael Shermer: "Why Darwin Matters - The Case Against Intelligent Design."

He writes from a staunch evolutionist's perspective, of course, and harshly exposes ID for the pseudoscience that it is, but with a great deal of respect and bending over backwards for religion. Check out some reviews of the book, and maybe read the excerpts on Amazon if there are any. If it interests you and you decide to read it, let us know what you think.

I'm a little busy reading a book that exposes gaping holes in the theory of evolution.   :)  I'm also reading two other books (trampling on my "one book at a time" rule) and was given for Christmas "In Defense of Our America:  The Fight for Civil Liberties in the Age of Terror."  I doubt I'll get to Shermer anytime soon, assuming I have any interest in his book.  But thanks for the recommendation.  I’m always looking for good books. 

Deicide

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2007, 08:34:49 PM »
This shit is only an issue on the USA, allegedly the forerunner of science?!  ::)
I hate the State.

columbusdude82

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2007, 09:16:27 AM »
I'm a little busy reading a book that exposes gaping holes in the theory of evolution.   :)  I'm also reading two other books (trampling on my "one book at a time" rule) and was given for Christmas "In Defense of Our America:  The Fight for Civil Liberties in the Age of Terror."  I doubt I'll get to Shermer anytime soon, assuming I have any interest in his book.  But thanks for the recommendation.  I’m always looking for good books. 

That's the reason I recommeded this particular book to you.

Beach Bum, would you agree that humility is a Christian virtue? If so, then I ask that you consider showing some humility in this regard. If you are not a trained biologist, then perhaps you should consider that you don't know better than all the world's biologists, that you aren't better informed than they are, and that if these "gaping holes" really existed, they would have been found by those who labor in labs day and night, not by a bunch of creationist rabble rousers with no academic qualification in evolution, paleontology, or genetics.

Every time you make a list of what you think are "holes" in evolution, I look through them and realize that anyone who has bothered reading real biology books would knock these arguments down in an instant.

To be sure, there are lots of crucial, very important, and very lively debates going on in evolution. ID is not one of them. If you want a list of areas where biologists differ passionately and where the scientific method operates at its finest, Shermer provides just that: a list of all the real areas of debate in evolution. It's very interesting, and completely destroys the creationist view that evolution is this closed members-only club that strictly enforces Darwinian doctrine.

:)

Dos Equis

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2007, 10:09:53 AM »
That's the reason I recommeded this particular book to you.

Beach Bum, would you agree that humility is a Christian virtue? If so, then I ask that you consider showing some humility in this regard. If you are not a trained biologist, then perhaps you should consider that you don't know better than all the world's biologists, that you aren't better informed than they are, and that if these "gaping holes" really existed, they would have been found by those who labor in labs day and night, not by a bunch of creationist rabble rousers with no academic qualification in evolution, paleontology, or genetics.

Every time you make a list of what you think are "holes" in evolution, I look through them and realize that anyone who has bothered reading real biology books would knock these arguments down in an instant.

To be sure, there are lots of crucial, very important, and very lively debates going on in evolution. ID is not one of them. If you want a list of areas where biologists differ passionately and where the scientific method operates at its finest, Shermer provides just that: a list of all the real areas of debate in evolution. It's very interesting, and completely destroys the creationist view that evolution is this closed members-only club that strictly enforces Darwinian doctrine.

:)

I agree humility is a Christian virtue.  I fail to see how humility has one iota to do with me wanting to read a book you have recommended. 

I was taught the theory of evolution in school.  It permeated my biology, history, geology (yuck), and geography (boring) classes.  Currently, I am reading a very good book that discusses things we did not cover in those classes.  I have a learned a lot so far. 

I am simply citing passages from a very good book.  I don't need to be a "trained biologist" to understand the questions and points being made in the book.  The book isn't about intelligent design.  It's about problems with the theory of evolution.  I'll continue to post points raised in the book.  You can either ignore them, question them, or continue to be a drone.  :)
     

columbusdude82

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2007, 10:27:09 AM »

I agree humility is a Christian virtue.  I fail to see how humility has one iota to do with we wanting to read a book you have recommended. 

It doesn't have to do with you reading a book I recommended. It has to do with:

... perhaps you should consider that you don't know better than all the world's biologists, that you aren't better informed than they are, and that if these "gaping holes" really existed, they would have been found by those who labor in labs day and night, not by a bunch of creationist rabble rousers with no academic qualification in evolution, paleontology, or genetics.

Quote
I am simply citing passages from a very good book.  I don't need to be a "trained biologist" to under the questions and points being made in the book.  The book isn't about intelligent design.  It's about problems with the theory of evolution. 

If you (or the author, for that matter) really understood the subject, you'd know that these aren't problems for evolution at all. Like I said, if you want real evolution problems, see Shermer.

Dos Equis

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2007, 10:33:51 AM »
It doesn't have to do with you reading a book I recommended. It has to do with:

If you (or the author, for that matter) really understood the subject, you'd know that these aren't problems for evolution at all. Like I said, if you want real evolution problems, see Shermer.


And where did I say I know better than the world's biologists?  I'm simply reading a book and reporting what I read.  Does that threaten you and your beliefs?  Sure sounds like it. 

You can argue with Dr. Simmons all you want, but I believe his credentials are a little better than yours.  :)  In any event, like I said, if the information from his book bothers you, then don't read it.  Or you can question it, or you can continue with your talking points.  Doesn't matter to me.   

columbusdude82

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2007, 10:37:12 AM »
You can argue with Dr. Simmons all you want, but I believe his credentials are a little better than yours.  :) 

Don't count on it :)

Dos Equis

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2007, 10:51:09 AM »
Don't count on it :)

Dr. Geoffrey Simmons has an undergrad degree in biology.  He studied the human body and evolutionary theory for more than 40 years.  He received his M.D. in 1969 and now practices in Oregon.  He is board certified in internal medicine.  He has also written "What Darwin Didn't Know: A Doctor Dissects the Theory of Evolution."

Aren't you a student?   

 

columbusdude82

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2007, 10:54:48 AM »
Dr. Geoffrey Simmons has an undergrad degree in biology.  He studied the human body and evolutionary theory for more than 40 years.  He received his M.D. in 1969 and now practices in Oregon.  He is board certified in internal medicine.  He has also written "What Darwin Didn't Know: A Doctor Dissects the Theory of Evolution."

Aren't you a student?   

 

Yes I am. And how does all that medical training make him qualified in evolutionary biology? It's like saying a mechanical engineer is qualified to discuss quantum theory.

Dos Equis

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2007, 11:01:51 AM »
Yes I am. And how does all that medical training make him qualified in evolutionary biology? It's like saying a mechanical engineer is qualified to discuss quantum theory.

I believe what I said, and what you questioned, was whether his credentials are better than yours.  So your credentials as a student are better than someone with a degree in biology, who has a medical degree, is board certified in internal medicine, has studied evolutionary theory for more than 40 years, has written two books about it, and has lectured repeatedly about it?   

columbusdude82

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2007, 11:04:12 AM »
Why, yes :) I do believe so!

Dos Equis

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2007, 11:04:40 AM »
O.K.   ::)

Parker

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2007, 09:33:24 PM »
I'm reading the book "Billions of Missing Links:  A Rational Look at the Mysteries Evolution Can't Explain," by Dr. Geoffrey Simmons.  (For you intellectually dishonest people, the book was actually written by the Discovery Institute.)

It is my weekend reading, so it will take me a while to finish, but fascinating read so far.  Through the first five chapters he talks about the many, many improbable coincidences that resulted in life as we know it.  The foreword has a discussion of all of the steps involved in childbirth.  I've been through it four times, having been present for the birth of all four of my children (except one c-section), but the amount of things that all have to take place, perfectly, for childbirth is remarkable. 

Here are some things I've found particularly interesting in the first few chapters:

1.  He believes the earth is billions of years old.

2.  Evolution scientists have apparently ignored the tenets of their own scientific method:  (1) observation; (2) hypothesis formulation; (3) prediction; and (4) testing of predictions. 

3.  There are no published experiments that clearly show one species naturally evolving into another species.  Darwin apparently admitted this in "forgotten passages in many of his writings." 

4.  You cannot prove either evolution or intelligent design through testing. 

5.  He identifies a number of animals with no clear cut ancestors, including whales, cuttlefish, giraffes, amoebas, hummingbirds, the illuminated net devil fish, Komodo dragon, etc.

6.  "Fossil records suggest that the Earth's temperatures and climate have remained essentially the same for 3.5 billion years.  It cleans, refreshes, protects, defends, regenerates, maintains, and repairs itself.  In a sense, it may breathe, and it definitely has a circulatory system.  No one knows how our planet acquired these abilities or remained stable.  The only choices appear to be improbable coincidences, Intelligent Design, or incredible luck." 

7.  Since Darwin's days we have discovered thousands of new life-forms.  Some experts say we know of 14 million.  When you add the seas and microscopic worlds, we could be up to 100 million different species, all of whom should have several intermediates or predecessors if they were the product of evolution. 

More next week.   :)

giraffes have a living ancestor called the Okape, which is called the short neck giraffe. The theory is that giraffes long necks were just adaption for tall trees, evolving from the short neck (Okape) giraffe. They I believe are in the same family as camels. Hummingbirds are in the same family as swifts and swallows, which are in turn related to nighthawks and nightjars. All have that big eyed-wide mouth, small and week feet, with sharp feathers, and streamlined bodies. The Komodo dragon is nothing more than a big monitor lizard, and probably is related to the huge monitors that used to roam Australia several though years ago.

columbusdude82

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2007, 01:59:38 AM »
Parker, why do you hate the Lord Jesus Christ so much? ???

Don't you know those seeming relationships were only put there in nature by the Lord during the creation in 4004 BC merely to test our faith?

mightymouse72

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2007, 07:56:56 AM »
really good info beach.
keep up the good work!
W

Parker

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2007, 09:47:50 AM »
Parker, why do you hate the Lord Jesus Christ so much? ???

Don't you know those seeming relationships were only put there in nature by the Lord during the creation in 4004 BC merely to test our faith?

I think I need to go pray...For only the Lord knows my heart...

Dos Equis

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2008, 01:17:23 PM »
really good info beach.
keep up the good work!

Thanks mang.   :)

Improbable natural designs:

1.  "The gecko lizard can easily walk along, up, and down any wall, and across any ceiling, without falling.  Electron microscopy has revealed that each lizard has about 500 million suction cups on its toes; each about .0000008 of an inch wide.  Their feet are also formed at a specific angle so they can easily peel off different cups yet remain secure.  These suction devices are also self-cleaning.  Imagine a dangling ancient lizard crying out for help because it had too loose of a grip.  There are no predecessors known."

2.  "A tropical fish Anableps dowi has four eyes, which look much like two large eyes.  There are no clear-cut predecessors."


Next . . . Motion designs . . . .

Dos Equis

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2008, 10:22:09 PM »

 Motion Designs

1.  "Moving across or through water comes in many styles.  The dolphin and whale swim with their tail swinging up and down, the opposite of fish tails.  Where are the intermediates?  Land mammals, their presumed ancestors, mostly move their tails up to defecate or mate."

2.  "Motion design is the ultimate choreography.  Whether the activity occurs along the ground, in the air, or through the water, billions of muscle, nerve, blood, and bone cells are coordinated to make each part of an animal's body move in exceedingly smooth and select ways that suit them and their survival.  A fish navigating a riverbed, a bat flying between trees, and even you turning this page are not consequences of chance mutations or slow evolutionary transitions."

Structure Designs

1.  A hen's egg defies evolution.  "All hen's eggs are ready to hatch on the twenty-first day.  Every day is precisely preprogrammed.  The heart starts beating on the sixth day.  ON the nineteenth day the embryo uses its egg tooth to puncture the air sac (beneath the flat end) and then takes two days to crack through the shell." 

2.  Regarding bones, exoskeletons, and shells, "[t]he fossil records should be loaded with intermediate shells and exoskeletons.  It is not." 

Plant Designs

"The plant's side of this interaction [between animal and plant kingdoms] requires the presence of a pigment called chlorophyll, which is found inside microscopic pea-shaped green organelles within each cell of every leaf.  Some scientists think they might once have been green microorganisms that were trapped and then passed on, but that's only speculation--and if so, a rather striking combination of accidents.  Notably, chloroplasts are found at the top of every plant or are spread out along branches and limbs so that they can capture the most sunlight.  A plant evolving without chloroplasts is like a book without pages.  They had to have arrived together." 

tonymctones

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2008, 11:11:53 PM »
Beach you should maybe take a Anthropology class, b/c some of the things that you point of as having no scientific explanition do infact have one. Are they something that you would consider true thats for you to decide but just learning whats wrong with something is close minded, you should also learn whats RIGHT about evolution as well. I consider myself a Christian but I also believe in evolution.

Dos Equis

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2008, 09:59:41 AM »
Beach you should maybe take a Anthropology class, b/c some of the things that you point of as having no scientific explanition do infact have one. Are they something that you would consider true thats for you to decide but just learning whats wrong with something is close minded, you should also learn whats RIGHT about evolution as well. I consider myself a Christian but I also believe in evolution.

Tony I'm not really pointing anything out.  Just repeating what I'm reading in a book.

I was taught the "from goo to you" theory throughout school, including in biology, history, geology, etc. class.  That includes an "animal psychology" class.  One of the worst mistakes of my academic life.  Thought it was going to be an easy class.  Turned out to be ridiculously hard (because of the professor). 

What I'm doing now is reading about things that challenge what I've already been taught.  That's what truly open minded people do.  :)  I learned a great deal from "Darwin's Black Box" and I'm learning quite a bit from this book.   

Dos Equis

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2008, 10:09:17 AM »
Nature's Laws

1.  "Seventy percent of the earth's surface is water, and 90 percent of that is ocean.  Only 3 percent of the total water is fresh water, and three-quarters of that is frozen at the polar ice caps.  In essence, we directly depend on less than 1 percent of all water.  Fortunately, water can exist in three major forms.  An accident?  Heat evaporates it from the oceans to form clouds, it moves over land, cools, and condenses back to water, snow, or ice.  It then returns to earth, re-nourishes both plant and animal life, and returns to the sea.  How might it be there if water could not make the changes to complete this cycle?"

2.  "A geometric constant in nature is symmetry. . . .  Any deviation from the usual design prompts the question, what's wrong with him, her, or it?  Symmetry is much more than mere aesthetic appreciation, however.  It has definite mechanical advantages.  Imagine how a bear would survive if its teeth were misaligned, how a horse would gallop if its legs were randomly placed, or a bird would fly if its wings were different sizes.  Did these symmetries evolve?  If so, there's a lot of weird fossils still missing." 

3.  "Natural laws govern our existence.  Like a bridge designed by an engineer, most structures in the living world fit into or can be explained by mathematical equations.  Did the perfectly suited protective cushion in an elephant's foot come before it's hefty torso?  Or did they come together?  The evidence does not show a long line of crippled elephants breeding until the right cushion happened by mutation.  And so it goes with nearly every aspect of every animal and plant." 

tonymctones

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2008, 10:29:50 AM »
Tony I'm not really pointing anything out.  Just repeating what I'm reading in a book.

I was taught the "from goo to you" theory throughout school, including in biology, history, geology, etc. class.  That includes an "animal psychology" class.  One of the worst mistakes of my academic life.  Thought it was going to be an easy class.  Turned out to be ridiculously hard (because of the professor). 

What I'm doing now is reading about things that challenge what I've already been taught.  That's what truly open minded people do.  :)  I learned a great deal from "Darwin's Black Box" and I'm learning quite a bit from this book.   
lol what? animal psychology i gotta admit im kinda curious. Ive taken all of those classes as well, however anthroplogy seems to be the only classes that take an indepth look at evolution, and its pros and cons all the others speak of it like it is a fact. Anthropology or at least the prof's call it the THEORY of evolution although most do speak of it as scientific fact and thats because the groundings of the theory are facts.

Dos Equis

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2008, 10:46:44 AM »
lol what? animal psychology i gotta admit im kinda curious. Ive taken all of those classes as well, however anthroplogy seems to be the only classes that take an indepth look at evolution, and its pros and cons all the others speak of it like it is a fact. Anthropology or at least the prof's call it the THEORY of evolution although most do speak of it as scientific fact and thats because the groundings of the theory are facts.

My animal psychology class was really a study of animal development and behavior from a purely evolutionary standpoint.  Probably very similar to anthropology.  HATED IT.  Did you ever thumb through the course catalog looking for an easy, fun "A"?  That's what I was trying to do.   :-[

My wife took anthropology, so I can rely on pillow talk.  :)

I don't agree that the theory of evolution is grounded on fact.  The entire theory is grounded on something that can't hasn't been proved (the origins of life).  Go back and look at my first post in this thread:

"2.  Evolution scientists have apparently ignored the tenets of their own scientific method:  (1) observation; (2) hypothesis formulation; (3) prediction; and (4) testing of predictions."   

tonymctones

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2008, 08:40:54 PM »
My animal psychology class was really a study of animal development and behavior from a purely evolutionary standpoint.  Probably very similar to anthropology.  HATED IT.  Did you ever thumb through the course catalog looking for an easy, fun "A"?  That's what I was trying to do.   :-[

My wife took anthropology, so I can rely on pillow talk.  :)

I don't agree that the theory of evolution is grounded on fact.  The entire theory is grounded on something that can't hasn't been proved (the origins of life).  Go back and look at my first post in this thread:

"2.  Evolution scientists have apparently ignored the tenets of their own scientific method:  (1) observation; (2) hypothesis formulation; (3) prediction; and (4) testing of predictions."   

hahah ya i took a greek and roman myths class once and thought dude this sounds cool, one of the worst classes ive ever had.

I will agree with number two but they are in the process of it now, if evolution does in fact happen it would take millions of years so its hard to test this prediction. Number one however, we have seen micro evolution in process this is the fact that I was referring to. It would reason to be that if many micro evolutions happend that eventually a macro evolution would result after enough time, i.e. dogs from wolfs.

And although i must admit im not positive I do believe that all living creatures are put in their relative taxonomic place. Now again is that proof for their placings good enough for you, thats another story but there was proof enough for the scientist to put them there and relate them to other life forms.

Im gonna start another thread about questions i have about God and such you come read mine too.

Dos Equis

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Re: Billions of Missing Links
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2008, 08:20:46 PM »
hahah ya i took a greek and roman myths class once and thought dude this sounds cool, one of the worst classes ive ever had.

I will agree with number two but they are in the process of it now, if evolution does in fact happen it would take millions of years so its hard to test this prediction. Number one however, we have seen micro evolution in process this is the fact that I was referring to. It would reason to be that if many micro evolutions happend that eventually a macro evolution would result after enough time, i.e. dogs from wolfs.

And although i must admit im not positive I do believe that all living creatures are put in their relative taxonomic place. Now again is that proof for their placings good enough for you, thats another story but there was proof enough for the scientist to put them there and relate them to other life forms.

Im gonna start another thread about questions i have about God and such you come read mine too.

Tony I think if all life evolved from the same cell/creature, there would be lots of evidence in the fossil record. 

The more I read this book the more in awe I become at how complex and perfect so many things are on this planet.  I'll be posting more in the coming days (or weeks). 

I'll check out your thread.