Has God left us a photograph of Christ's resurrection?

[loco]

...then the author is simply misinformed.


The Luke

The author is skeptical of the shroud as you are, as I am.  I don't trust relics, especially those coming out of the Roman Catholic Church.  Bu I know that the Shroud of Turin has been analyzed and tested by many modern scientists using modern methods and instruments, and it still remains a mystery today.

[The Luke]

The author is skeptical of the shroud as you are, as I am.  I don't trust relics, especially those coming out of the Roman Catholic Church.  Bu I know that the Shroud of Turin has been analyzed and tested by many modern scientists using modern methods and instruments, and it still remains a mystery today.

Bollocks... kids here in Ireland have made copies of the Shroud as science projects.
There are dozens of documentaries that have exposed both this fake, and the process da Vinci used to make it.

The only mystery is among the uninformed... or the willfully ignorant (religious).


For Christ's sake, I can make one of these shrouds myself. It's basic chemistry.


The Luke

[loco]

Bollocks... kids here in Ireland have made copies of the Shroud as science projects.
There are dozens of documentaries that have exposed both this fake, and the process da Vinci used to make it.

Leonardo Da Vinci was born in 1452, which is 100 years after what is supposedly the time the Shroud originated.

The Shroud's fully documented history began in 1353 in Western Europe when it was revealed by Geoffrey DeCharney in Lirey, France.

The only mystery is among the uninformed... or the willfully ignorant (religious).


For Christ's sake, I can make one of these shrouds myself. It's basic chemistry.


The Luke

So all the STURP team scientists are idiots according to you.

I won't believe you until you post your sources.

[The Luke]

So all the STURP team scientists are idiots according to you.

I won't believe you until you post your sources.

1- The STURP guys were all vetted to assure the Catholic Church that they had not made any presumptions regarding the Shroud (ie: only religious leaning or religiously sympathetic scientists/academics were chosen). That's important, especially when you consider that they never mentioned the (continuing) ban on testing for silver. Any savvy scientist should have guessed the forgery mechanism once that ban was insisted upon.

2- You won't believe me no matter what sources I post.


You could always type "Turin Shroud" and "photograph" and maybe "silver nitrate" into Youtube and see what happens. Instead you'll just keep arguing the toss with this long disproved bullshi t hoping that no one reads my previous post regarding the Shroud's origins (which I might repeat if you keep posting just to turn the page over so no one notices it).


The Luke     

[loco]

1- The STURP guys were all vetted to assure the Catholic Church that they had not made any presumptions regarding the Shroud (ie: only religious leaning or religiously sympathetic scientists/academics were chosen). That's important, especially when you consider that they never mentioned the (continuing) ban on testing for silver. Any savvy scientist should have guessed the forgery mechanism once that ban was insisted upon.

2- You won't believe me no matter what sources I post.


You could always type "Turin Shroud" and "photograph" and maybe "silver nitrate" into Youtube and see what happens. Instead you'll just keep arguing the toss with this long disproved bullshi t hoping that no one reads my previous post regarding the Shroud's origins (which I might repeat if you keep posting just to turn the page over so no one notices it).


The Luke     

At least I post my sources, both supporting and skeptic of the Shroud.  You've got nothing.

[The Luke]

At least I post my sources, both supporting and skeptic of the Shroud.  You've got nothing.

...what a lazy ignorant moron you are.

The Luke

[loco]

...what a lazy ignorant moron you are.

Lazy?  And this is coming from the one who would not lift a finger to post a mere link.   

Ignorant?  And this is coming from the one who did not know that Leonardo Da Vinci was born 100 years after what is supposedly the time the Shroud originated.   

And you are a hard working, very intelligent person!   

The Luke

There, was that too hard?  Now sit down, rest and catch your breath.

Thanks for the video.  I'll watch it when I get home from work.  I don't watch videos at work.

[The Luke]

Ignorant?  And this is coming from the one who did not know that Leonardo Da Vinci was born 100 years after what is supposedly the time the Shroud originated.   

...I already explained this in detail. Epic reading comprehension.

The Lirey family tried the Shroud hoax twice... the first was exposed, 70 years later Da Vinci made the second "miraculous" one.

Read my posts before you disagree.


Loco, why can't you just admit that as a religious nutbar you WANT the Shroud to be genuine... or failing that, at least inexplicable.

The REALITY is that the Shroud is a fake perpetrated on the ignorant Christian sheeple by a clever homosexual atheist. Da Vinci is laughing in his grave.


The Luke

[loco]

...I already explained this in detail. Epic reading comprehension.

The Lirey family tried the Shroud hoax twice... the first was exposed, 70 years later Da Vinci made the second "miraculous" one.

Read my posts before you disagree.


Loco, why can't you just admit that as a religious nutbar you WANT the Shroud to be genuine... or failing that, at least inexplicable.

The REALITY is that the Shroud is a fake perpetrated on the ignorant Christian sheeple by a clever homosexual atheist. Da Vinci is laughing in his grave.


The Luke

Meltdown.

So what if it is a fake?  I don't care.

A lot of criticism and skepticism concerning the Shroud of Turin has come from Christians, both Catholics and Protestants.  Protestants don't believe in relics, least of all relics coming from the Roman Catholic Church and specially one that surfaced during the middle ages.  Many Christians believe that God would not have left behind an image of Jesus Christ which could easily become the object of idol worship.

I'm not claiming that the Shroud of Turin is the cloth that wrapped the dead body of Jesus.  Notice the title of this thread is not a claim but a question.

That the Shroud of Turin is the cloth that covered the crucified, dead body of Jesus of Nazareth, and that the image was formed on the cloth as a side effect of his resurrection are simply hypothesis.  These hypothesis are based on the scientific analysis of the shroud, what historians and archaeologists know of Roman crucifixion, and on what we know from the Gospels.

Personally, I always thought that the shroud was either a forgery by the Catholic Church or that it was really a cloth used to wrap the body of some dead man other than Jesus.   But after looking more into it, I now believe that there is a possibility, as small as it may be, that this was the burial cloth used to wrap the dead, crucified body of Jesus of Nazareth.

Christianity rests on Faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died for our sins and rose again.  Christianity does not rest on relics.  If you already have faith in Jesus, then you do not need the shroud.  If you do not have faith, then you probably will not believe even if presented with proof that the shroud is authentic.

[The Luke]

Meltdown.
So what if it is a fake?  I don't care.

...you should be ashamed that you questioned my posts on this subject. Ignorance is not a virtue... and willful ignorance such as you displayed here is most assuredly a pernicious and odious vice.

Is this what "faith" constitutes in this day and age...? The denial of reality?

Do these so-called Christians really think that reality itself is subject to their whims and delusions?

Why can't these people simply dismiss Jebus the same way that they dismiss Mithras; Apollo; Dionysus; Hercules; Quetzlcaotl; Gilgamesh and science itself.

FACTS are FACTS:
-the Shroud is a FAKE
-Da Vinci forged it
-it's a silver nitrate proto-photograph fixed with urine
-radio carbon dating confirms this
-the history confirms this
-the Shroud confirms this
-the Church itself has confirmed this (tacitly, by allowing all testing except testing for silver)

END OF THREAD!


The Luke

[loco]

...you should be ashamed that you questioned my posts on this subject. Ignorance is not a virtue... and willful ignorance such as you displayed here is most assuredly a pernicious and odious vice.

Is this what "faith" constitutes in this day and age...? The denial of reality?

Do these so-called Christians really think that reality itself is subject to their whims and delusions?

Why can't these people simply dismiss Jebus the same way that they dismiss Mithras; Apollo; Dionysus; Hercules; Quetzlcaotl; Gilgamesh and science itself.

FACTS are FACTS:
-the Shroud is a FAKE
-Da Vinci forged it
-it's a silver nitrate proto-photograph fixed with urine
-radio carbon dating confirms this
-the history confirms this
-the Shroud confirms this
-the Church itself has confirmed this (tacitly, by allowing all testing except testing for silver)

END OF THREAD!


The Luke

I started this thread.  Your nonsense has no end, and neither does this thread. 

[The Luke]

Bump for the truth!

Down with religion!

Some of the people on this site know about my being a hobby-adventurer in my spare time (Sasquatch; Loch Ness; lost treasure; Templar sites; Masonic buildings etc etc)... so in my capacity as a Knower of Secrets, I'll let everyone in on the real skinny regarding the Turin Shroud.

Bare with me, I'm working from memory without Google-fu (it's 3am here):


After the first few Crusades, supposedly "genuine" relics from Jesus' homeland (a historical Jesus never existed, he is an adaption of the common mystery religion dying/resurrecting God-man) became big business all across Christendom. For example, Charlamagne carried the (supposed) actual Roman pilum (Legionary infantry spear) believed to have pierced Christ's side... which was manufactured to order for Charlemagne by the Church to solidify his claim to the throne of Christendom. Add to this the Grail Romances that furthered the Sangraal heresies... the Johannite; Templar; Mandean heresies based upon John the Baptist's finger; severed head; secret gospel respectively etc etc

Rumours of miraculous healing relics spread throughout Europe, often originating with the churches/cathedrals/families manufacturing the relics themselves. One such relic was the Odessa Shroud, a folded shroud bearing the ethereal image of a mans face famous as a healing relic across the Muslim lands (some Muslims attributed the Odessa Shroud to Issa, the Kashmiri Buddhist/Muslim version of Jesus).

The Lirey family (now known as the Charney family) manufactured a copy of the Odessa Shroud but didn't openly market it as a Muslim relic, instead they hinted that the image MIGHT be that of Jesus... they couldn't openly make such a claim without the Church's consent: better to establish the relic as a centre of pilgrimage first then have the Church ratify it for a cut of the profits later on.

Unfortunately, the local bishop had the new relic boiled twice then further boiled in oil washing out most of the paint... convinced of the fraudulence of the shroud, he also obtained a confession from a local artist who apparently had painted the shroud on commission from the Lirey family.


Rather than have the Church officially denounce the relic, the Lirey family simply withdrew it from the public for the next seventy years (long enough for everyone who had seen it to die).


What happened next is what has made the Turin Shroud such an enduring mystery:

The Lirey family hired a young aspiring artist named Leonardo from the town of Vinci (yes, that Leonardo "da" Vinci) who set to work re-engineering the shroud as an unassailable, irrefutable miracle.

He did this by using a "camera obscura" to photographically imprint a three-dimensional image of an actual scourged body (supposedly that of a Christian Knight crucified in Odessa) onto a piece of herringbone weave Jewish style burial cloth with three exposures (one for the front, one for the back, and a double exposure on the face... using his own face) and fixed the silver nitrate with urine: locking in the exposed image.

This "piss-picture" is easily reproducible and explains many of the problems with the Turin Shroud:
-the front image is 6% larger than the back image (different focal distances)
-the face is somewhat double exposed (Da Vinci added his own face)
-the cloth is chemically singed to produce the image (no paint)
-the image is three dimensional
-the blood on the cloth is bovine (cow blood) mixed with red ochre (to keep it red)
-there is no space between the front and back images (the cloth can't be wrapped over and under a body while maintaining the image alignments unless Jesus was two dimensional)

This "new" version of the Shroud displayed by the Lirey family is no longer considered a crude forgery like it's counterpart 70 years previous... suddenly everyone who sees it is astounded by it's miraculous image. This "new" Shroud was similarly washed and boiled without ever losing its image, this convinced the Medieval populace sufficiently that the Church had no choice but to ratify the Shroud as a genuine miraculous relic.


All of this is common knowledge among those in the know.

Some evidence:

-Da Vinci remained a favourite of the Lirey family for his entire life

-the Church never prosecuted Da Vinci for heresy despite his hobby of dissecting human bodies

-the Church never prosecuted Da Vinci for blasphemy despite him being an outspoken atheist

-the Church never prosecuted Da Vinci for perversion despite his (somewhat) open homosexual lifestyle, yet they did prosecute Michelangelo

-the Church never prosecuted Da Vinci for harbouring his mother (Catherina) a Cathar heretic ("old believer")

-in his old age (80+) Da Vinci was taken in by the Lirey family

-Da Vinci died in the arms of the head of the Lirey family

-upon his death, Da Vinci's heir/apprentice/lover sold all of the masters codices (notebooks), the Lirey family paid way over the odds to procure ONLY the codex covering the time he worked for them before the newly miraculous 3D Shroud was made public

-this codex; now worth hundreds of millions has NEVER been seen again


Some modern evidence:

-among the many pollens discovered on the Shroud, olive tree pollen is conspicuously absent

-the Shroud's radiocarbon dating hasn't faltered: instead it is centering in more and more on Da Vinci's lifetime

-identical shrouds have been produced using a mannequin; camera obscura room; silver nitrate and urine... every Shroud believer should try this, it makes a great science project


But the most damning evidence of all?:
The Church has consistently ruled out any testing for the presence of silver... THEY KNOW it's a urine-fixed silver nitrate proto-photograph: Islamic manuscripts detailing the development of such technology by Muslim scientists during the Middle Ages (probably the same sources used by Da Vinci) are abundant in the Vatican archives.



So... it's a fake... but as a Da Vinci masterpiece, it's an absolutely priceless awe-inspiring fake.



The Luke (Knower of Secrets)

[Deicide]

...you should be ashamed that you questioned my posts on this subject. Ignorance is not a virtue... and willful ignorance such as you displayed here is most assuredly a pernicious and odious vice.

Is this what "faith" constitutes in this day and age...? The denial of reality?

Do these so-called Christians really think that reality itself is subject to their whims and delusions?

Why can't these people simply dismiss Jebus the same way that they dismiss Mithras; Apollo; Dionysus; Hercules; Quetzlcaotl; Gilgamesh and science itself.

FACTS are FACTS:
-the Shroud is a FAKE
-Da Vinci forged it
-it's a silver nitrate proto-photograph fixed with urine
-radio carbon dating confirms this
-the history confirms this
-the Shroud confirms this
-the Church itself has confirmed this (tacitly, by allowing all testing except testing for silver)

END OF THREAD!


The Luke

Word.

[loco]

Bump for the truth!

Down with religion!

So you hate religion and you hate religious people.  No bias there.    

You keep saying it's the end of the thread, but you keep posting too...all talk.    

[Deicide]

So you hate religion and you hate religious people.  No bias there.    

You keep saying it's the end of the thread, but you keep posting too...all talk.    

I thought you Christians nuthuggers were the all talk ones...

[The Luke]

So you hate religion and you hate religious people.  No bias there.    

Religious people are delusional morons...


For example, you Loco, would dismiss out of hand belief in every other god other than Jebus.

You wouldn't take seriously a belief in Horus; Mithras; Dionysus; Hercules or Attis... how dumb is that when the Jesus story is copied from these religions?

What are the odds that the Jesus is historical when every other version of the same story is recognized as astrological metaphor?

Come on Loco, you're an atheist too... at least with regard to the vast majority of gods. You've just got Jebus left to strike off the list. Millions down, just one to go.


The Luke

[Deicide]

Religious people are delusional morons...


For example, you Loco, would dismiss out of hand belief in every other god other than Jebus.

You wouldn't take seriously a belief in Horus; Mithras; Dionysus; Hercules or Attis... how dumb is that when the Jesus story is copied from these religions?

What are the odds that the Jesus is historical when every other version of the same story is recognized as astrological metaphor?

Come on Loco, you're an atheist too... at least with regard to the vast majority of gods. You've just got Jebus left to strike off the list. Millions down, just one to go.


The Luke

It's a tough choice between Hades, Zeus and Ares...

[The Luke]

I take it Loco won't be back to this thread...?

Not man enough to admit his own stupidity.



The Luke

[loco]

I take it Loco won't be back to this thread...?

Not man enough to admit his own stupidity.



The Luke

You are one bitter little man!

The Luke,
What's your beef with me?  Oh yes, you hate religious people.

Of course I will continue to add to my thread, as new information is released on the Shroud of Turin. 

Have a nice day!   

[The Luke]

Loco,

Admit my post regarding the Shroud's origins was both insightful and definitive.

Then admit you should have agreed it was an "End-of-thread" post, as I insisted.


The Luke

[loco]

Loco,

Admit my post regarding the Shroud's origins was both insightful and definitive.

Then admit you should have agreed it was an "End-of-thread" post, as I insisted.


The Luke

You're funny!   

[loco]

The Luke,

I haven't had a chance to watch the video that you posted for me.  As I said, I don't watch videos at work, and after I get off work...I have a life.  But I promise you I will watch it and comment on it.     

[The Luke]

Admit!... Admit!... Admit!


The Luke

[leonp1981]

Good thread!!!

I like a good mystery (Loch Ness and Sasquatch are my personal faves) but the Shroud will always be fake in one way or another, due to 'Jesus' being nothing more than an illusionist, an ancient times' David Blaine, if you will.     People have always wanted something to believe in, and if a clever man could perform 'miracles' then he would soon have a decent following, and maybe when he died, they kept the Shroud to provide backup to the Bible.

Ever since the church was formed, they have used the Bible as a means of controlling the masses, telling people to be good, do as they were told, or they would go to Hell!  When they were questioned, they called it blasphemy, and had people killed. 

Unfortunately, all religion is based on people's faith in the unknown, rather than the known, and in a way, that is how it must be.  If a time came when everyone's beliefs were proved to be entirely false, then whole society's would collapse.

If people want to believe, then let them.  As long as they don't force any of it on me, I really couldn't care less.  As far as the shroud goes, I would like it to be a mystery, but some of the things 'The Luke' brought up make me lean towards it being a well-engineered fake.

(I probably went a bit off-topic there, but oh well...   )

[The Luke]

Jesus H Christ...! Where is my long overdue apology Loco?

It shouldn't take too long to apologise for questioning my amazing depth of knowledge considering the amount of times I've produced end-of-thread posts on this board alone.


The Luke