Author Topic: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin  (Read 5007 times)

columbusdude82

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Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« on: February 12, 2008, 03:45:59 PM »
Yep, he turns 200 next year!!!

San Francisco Chronicle
Cal scientist reflects on Darwin's genius
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/11/BAGBUSGBL.DTL&type=science

beatmaster

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2008, 09:11:17 PM »
yes, happy darwin day!

I'm off to celebrate by trying to mate with females who display favourable survival characteristics.  :D


are you delusional?

columbusdude82

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2008, 04:33:57 AM »
yes, happy darwin day!

I'm off to celebrate by trying to mate with females who display favourable survival characteristics.  :D




 ;D

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2008, 06:57:22 AM »
A Slice of Infinity
Monkey See, Monkey Do
by Stuart McAllister

A friend was chatting about Christianity with an agnostic who believed that the evidence for evolution was strong and that this belief was true. Now, what is unique is not this individual’s belief. Many people believe this very thing; they think that all of us human beings are products of evolutionary processes. But Charles Darwin, the father of evolutionary theory, expresses grave doubts about this belief being true. He states, “With me, the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?”

You see, Darwin expresses here, the irony of his own view and the impact of the theory that he has just proposed. He is truly skeptical that a purely random evolutionary process—a process not guided by a creator—can explain the existence of our mind; more specifically, the existence of a mind that accurately portrays the world around us. For you see, if we have no reason to think that our minds accurately portray the world around us, then we have no reason for believing in evolution either.

Let me try and make this a little clearer. A colleague used to have pet monkeys in their backyard. Wanting to teach these monkeys a few tricks, they used food as a stimulus to get the monkeys to do what they wanted. I wish I could say that they trained them to do all their chores for them, but that would be stretching the truth much too far! The point here, though, is that what they were concerned with was these monkeys’ behavior. They couldn’t care less what the reason was for them doing what they were doing.

This bears a certain analogy to our discussion of evolution. If evolution is a blind mechanism that is selective according to behavior, what reason do we have for thinking that our beliefs accurately represent the world around us? Maybe we are just like the monkeys behaving the way we do because we were manipulated by nature.

But here is the rub—and it is at the heart of Darwin’s doubt. If we are merely like the monkeys, manipulated by nature, then we have no reason to think that evolution is true. Let me repeat that: If we are like the monkeys, manipulated by nature, then we have no reason to think evolution is true. We only have the thoughts we do about evolution because we are manipulated into thinking them.

Perhaps a more plausible view comes from the contrast given to us from the wisdom of God. Our rationality and our ability to reason is derivative from a Creator God in whose image we are made. Indeed the very fact that we are having this discussion may be a signpost to a higher source of reason than mere nature, may it not?

© 2008 Ravi Zacharias International Ministries. All Rights Reserved.

columbusdude82

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2008, 07:02:32 AM »
A Slice of Infinity
Monkey See, Monkey Do
by Stuart McAllister

A friend was chatting about Christianity with an agnostic who believed that the evidence for evolution was strong and that this belief was true. Now, what is unique is not this individual’s belief. Many people believe this very thing; they think that all of us human beings are products of evolutionary processes. But Charles Darwin, the father of evolutionary theory, expresses grave doubts about this belief being true. He states, “With me, the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man’s mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey’s mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?”

You see, Darwin expresses here, the irony of his own view and the impact of the theory that he has just proposed. He is truly skeptical that a purely random evolutionary process—a process not guided by a creator—can explain the existence of our mind; more specifically, the existence of a mind that accurately portrays the world around us. For you see, if we have no reason to think that our minds accurately portray the world around us, then we have no reason for believing in evolution either.

Let me try and make this a little clearer. A colleague used to have pet monkeys in their backyard. Wanting to teach these monkeys a few tricks, they used food as a stimulus to get the monkeys to do what they wanted. I wish I could say that they trained them to do all their chores for them, but that would be stretching the truth much too far! The point here, though, is that what they were concerned with was these monkeys’ behavior. They couldn’t care less what the reason was for them doing what they were doing.

This bears a certain analogy to our discussion of evolution. If evolution is a blind mechanism that is selective according to behavior, what reason do we have for thinking that our beliefs accurately represent the world around us? Maybe we are just like the monkeys behaving the way we do because we were manipulated by nature.

But here is the rub—and it is at the heart of Darwin’s doubt. If we are merely like the monkeys, manipulated by nature, then we have no reason to think that evolution is true. Let me repeat that: If we are like the monkeys, manipulated by nature, then we have no reason to think evolution is true. We only have the thoughts we do about evolution because we are manipulated into thinking them.

Perhaps a more plausible view comes from the contrast given to us from the wisdom of God. Our rationality and our ability to reason is derivative from a Creator God in whose image we are made. Indeed the very fact that we are having this discussion may be a signpost to a higher source of reason than mere nature, may it not?

© 2008 Ravi Zacharias International Ministries. All Rights Reserved.

No offence meant to you bud but... What a load of crap!

Got a reference for that Darwin quote? I don't trust anything from a source with the word "Ministries".

OzmO

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2008, 09:38:57 AM »
I wonder why we were "created" with DNA that's a 98% a match of apes?

Is that true?

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2008, 09:59:50 AM »
I wonder why we were "created" with DNA that's a 98% a match of apes?

Is that true?

Hey OzmO!
Human and chimp DNA are not as similar as some would like you to believe.

If human and chimp DNA are so similar, why are there so many physical and mental differences between them?

"When studying the human genome and its similarity to that of the chimp, scientists have recently concluded that 96% of our genome is similar. However, most people are unaware that this percent pertains to the regions of our DNA that result in proteins. It seems logical that if a protein performs a certain function in one organism, then that same protein should perform the same function in a variety of organisms. This is evidence for a common designer as much as for a common ancestor. But most of the DNA sequence performs an unknown function and has been largely dismissed as “junk DNA.” However, increasing evidence supports the view that “junk” DNA performs an important role. For example, a recent report unexpectedly found specific sequence patterns in “junk” DNA which scientists have termed “pyknons.”1 It has been suggested that these pyknons may be important in determining when and where proteins are made.

Within this “junk DNA” there may be large differences between man and chimp. The areas of greatest difference appear to involve regions which are structurally different (commonly called “rearrangements”) and areas of heterochromatin (tightly packed DNA).

Here are some other interesting differences between the human and chimp genomes which are often not reported:

- The amount of chimp DNA is 12% larger than what it is in humans.

- Several hundred million bases (individual components of the DNA) of the chimp genome are still unanalyzed.

- In many areas of the DNA sequence, major “rearrangements” seem apparent. These account for perhaps 4–10% dissimilarity between chimps and humans.

- Chimps have 23 chromosomes and humans have only 22 (excluding sex chromosomes for both species).

Thus, the physical and mental differences between humans and chimps are most likely due to the differences in purpose and function of the so-called junk DNA. This understanding should leave us more mindful of the awesome complexity of the Creator and His creation of DNA.

Dr. Georgia Purdom earned her doctorate from The Ohio State University in molecular genetics and spent six years as a professor of biology at Mt. Vernon Nazarene University. Dr. Purdom is also a member of the American Society for Microbiology and American Society for Cell Biology."

Footnotes:

1. Rigoutsos, Isidore, et al., Short blocks from the noncoding parts of the human genome have instances within nearly all known genes and relate to biological processes, PNAS 103(17):6605–10.

loco

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2008, 10:14:32 AM »
No offence meant to you bud but... What a load of crap!

Got a reference for that Darwin quote? I don't trust anything from a source with the word "Ministries".

Quote
With me, the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would anyone trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind...?
Charles Darwin. [1]

1. Letter to William Graham, Down, July 3, 1881. In The Life and Letters of Charles Darwin Including an Autobiographical Chapter, ed. Francis Darwin (London: John Murray, Albermarle Street, 1887), Volume 1, pp. 315-316.

columbusdude82

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2008, 10:16:42 AM »
Thanks for the reference. :)

I'll be sure to quote that every time you or Beach or Stella start talking about "faith" ;) ;) ;)

loco

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2008, 10:19:01 AM »
Thanks for the reference. :)

You are welcome!

I'll be sure to quote that every time you or Beach or Stella start talking about "faith" ;) ;) ;)

What do you mean?  I don't get it.

columbusdude82

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2008, 10:21:52 AM »
Think about it :)

loco

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2008, 10:30:01 AM »
Think about it :)

columbusdude82,
Do you have convictions of any kind?  What are they?

OzmO

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2008, 10:31:17 AM »
Hey OzmO!
Human and chimp DNA are not as similar as some would like you to believe.


Hi loco,  ;D

Here's a link:

http://www.astrobio.net/news/article1173.html


We are very different.  But the reality is, we are 98% the same.  Why would God do this?  Create us in his image......98% Ape?



loco

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2008, 10:40:00 AM »
Hi loco,  ;D

Here's a link:

http://www.astrobio.net/news/article1173.html



Thanks, OzmO!  I read your link.  Your point?  How does that refute what Dr. Georgia Purdom said?  They are still not as similar as some would like you to believe.  The similarities pertain only to the regions of our DNA that result in proteins.

By the way, even that one part of the DNA is supposely 96%, 97%, 98% or 99% similar depending on who you ask.     ;)

OzmO

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2008, 10:52:01 AM »
Thanks, OzmO!  I read your link.  Your point?  How does that refute what Dr. Georgia Purdom said?  They are still not as similar as some would like you to believe.  The similarities pertain only to the regions of our DNA that result in proteins.

By the way, even that one part of the DNA is supposely 96%, 97%, 98% or 99% similar depending on who you ask.     ;)

My point is that if we are creations of God, which i believe, why such a high percentage of the same exact building blocks of apes?   I mean why any percentage of all if we are a unique creation? 

If God was "creating" us, and in that creation put a high percentage of APE in us, doesn't point to evolution far more directly than thinking we just appeared as Adam and Eve? 

loco

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2008, 11:03:13 AM »
My point is that if we are creations of God, which i believe, why such a high percentage of the same exact building blocks of apes?   I mean why any percentage of all if we are a unique creation? 

If God was "creating" us, and in that creation put a high percentage of APE in us, doesn't point to evolution far more directly than thinking we just appeared as Adam and Eve? 

Okay.  My point is that it is not "such a high percentage" of the entire DNA, but only the regions of our DNA that result in proteins.  Only those regions are about 96% similar.  But you don't hear that often.  Some would like you to believe that 99% of human and chimp entire DNA are similar. 

And just because part of our DNA is similar to chimp DNA, it does not follow that we evolved from chimps.

OzmO

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2008, 11:24:34 AM »
Okay.  My point is that it is not "such a high percentage" of the entire DNA, but only the regions of our DNA that result in proteins.  Only those regions are about 96% similar.  But you don't hear that often.  Some would like you to believe that 99% of human and chimp entire DNA are similar. 

And just because part of our DNA is similar to chimp DNA, it does not follow that we evolved from chimps.

If it was 20% it might not even be worth debating or investigating.  But 90%+?   My gosh.....  that's a very hard connection to ignore.

If you work backwards from the assumption that we did evolve from apes, 90% or better would very strong supporting evidence.

If you work backwards from the belief that we are created unique by God, 90% or better would be very strong supporting evidence against that especially when you consider all the different DNA of different species on earth.

loco

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2008, 11:31:04 AM »
If it was 20% it might not even be worth debating or investigating.  But 90%+?   My gosh.....  that's a very hard connection to ignore.

If you work backwards from the assumption that we did evolve from apes, 90% or better would very strong supporting evidence.

If you work backwards from the belief that we are created unique by God, 90% or better would be very strong supporting evidence against that especially when you consider all the different DNA of different species on earth.

If that's enough for you to conclude that you evolved from chimps and that you are nothing but an animal simply acting on instinct as you read this and type a reply, that's fine.  That's not enough to convince me.

Just because 90%+ of only part of human and chimp DNA are similar, it does not follow that humans evolved from chimps.

OzmO

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2008, 11:35:24 AM »
If that's enough for you to conclude that you evolved from chimps and that you are nothing but an animal simply acting on instinct as you read this and type a reply, that's fine.  That's not enough to convince me.

Just because 90%+ of only part of human and chimp DNA are similar, it does not follow that humans evolved from chimps.


Wow, loco that's almost insulting.  That's not like you.


What's up with that?

loco

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2008, 11:42:12 AM »

Wow, loco that's almost insulting.  That's not like you.


What's up with that?

LOL...I'm not insulting you at all.  That's what all those who accept Darwin's theory of evolution say about themselves and about humans in general, that we are nothing but "higher" animals.  I'm sure you have read some of our own getbiggers say this about all humans in general. 

As for the part that we, as animals, act purely on instinct is "still up for debate" they say.  I'm sure you've read some of our own getbiggers say that there is no such thing as free will, that we simply do what we do because it is dictated to us by our genetics.

OzmO, so do you believe that God used evolution to create us?  Do you believe that we evolved from animals?  If you do, then how are we not animals?

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2008, 11:52:14 AM »
If that's enough for you to conclude that you evolved from chimps and that you are nothing but an animal simply acting on instinct as you read this and type a reply, that's fine.  That's not enough to convince me.

Just because 90%+ of only part of human and chimp DNA are similar, it does not follow that humans evolved from chimps.

BTW.  It's certainly not enough for me as there are far more things to support evolution than that simple fact.  And the vast majority of educated scientist genetic biologists etc...  believe the same as they support evolution.

But that also brings up another issue......  becuase 90%+ of human's DNA are exact to apes, it does not follow that humans were created unique far and away more than the opposite.

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2008, 11:54:34 AM »
LOL...I'm not insulting you at all.  That's what all those who accept Darwin's theory of evolution say about themselves and about humans in general, that we are nothing but "higher" animals.  I'm sure you have read some of our own getbiggers say this about all humans in general. 

As for the part that we, as animals, act purely on instinct is "still up for debate" they say.  I'm sure you've read some of our own getbiggers say that there is no such thing as free will, that we simply do what we do because it is dictated to us by our genetics.

OzmO, so do you believe that God used evolution to create us?  Do you believe that we evolved from animals?  If you do, then how are we not animals?

We are higher animals, vehicles that God has used to house our souls for our short stay on earth.

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2008, 11:58:05 AM »
BTW.  It's certainly not enough for me as there are far more things to support evolution than that simple fact. 

Such as?  Give me proof of evolutionary change above the level of species.

And the vast majority of educated scientist genetic biologists etc...  believe the same as they support evolution.

So?  The vast majority of educated scientist genetic biologists etc., have been wrong before, and they can and they will be wrong again.  Neither Science nor Truth are a democracy.  

But that also brings up another issue......  becuase 90%+ of human's DNA are exact to apes, it does not follow that humans were created unique far and away more than the opposite.

Sorry, I'm not following.  What are you trying to say here?

loco

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2008, 12:01:57 PM »
We are higher animals, vehicles that God has used to house our souls for our short stay on earth.

So we are animals?  Then what did you find insulting about my previous post?

If you believe this, then chimps are a higher animal then their ancestors.  We are higher animals only in relation to chimps.  We are lower animals in relation to a higher, non-human, future species which will evolve from us, our decedents.  If you believe that we are nothing but "higher" animals who evolved from chimps, what makes you think that we are so special to God?

Chimps act on instinct, unaware that they do.  What makes you think that you too are not acting simply on instinct as you are reading this and thinking up a reply?

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Re: Happy 199th Birthday, Charles Darwin
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2008, 12:03:28 PM »
Such as?  Give me proof of evolutionary change above the level of species.

So?  The vast majority of educated scientist genetic biologists etc., have been wrong before, and they can and they will be wrong again.  Neither Science nor Truth are a democracy. 

Sorry, I'm not following.  What are you trying to say here?

The point here is that proof of evolution far out weighs proof of creation.