Sexism?

[BayGBM]

Surveys of older women in particular generate the consensus opinion that Hillary’s losses to Obama represent yet another case of a more qualified woman being passed over for a man.  Do you agree with this at all?  Do you see evidence of sexism in this campaign?

Do you see or experience sexism in your day to day life?   Have you ever seen women practice sexism on one another?

Perhaps one of the worst aspects of sexism is that you can experience it without even knowing it’s happening.  Please describe the last episode of sexism that you have personally experienced.

[michael arvilla]

Surveys of older women in particular generate the consensus opinion that Hillary’s losses to Obama represent yet another case of a more qualified woman being passed over for a man.  Do you agree with this at all?  Do you see evidence of sexism in this campaign?

Do you see or experience sexism in your day to day life?   Have you ever seen women practice sexism on one another?

Perhaps one of the worst aspects of sexism is that you can experience it without even knowing it’s happening.  Please describe the last episode of sexism that you have personally experienced.

                                                              no

[BayGBM]

                                                              no

This question is for the ladies! 

[michael arvilla]

This question is for the ladies! 

[Deedee]

                                                              no

But you weren't being asked, were you? 

[Deedee]

I barely ever personally encounter it, except from extremely religious Christian men, * or very aged people.  At work, never. There are lots of disgusting websites like this one, http://savethemales.ca/200202.html which are hosted by very sad, middle-aged, unemployable men, but if you don't go looking for it, you won't really see it.

Sometimes what is thought of as sexism, is really just good manners.  Holding doors open for the next person is just a nice thing to do. 

I don't think the US is ready at all for a female president.

* Amended.  I should include all extremely religious people.  Orthodox Jews can be quite sexist as well, and very frum women of all kinds are usually sexist, or traditionally inspired, or whatever you want to call it.

[tonymctones]

I barely ever personally encounter it, except from extremely religious Christian men, * or very aged people.  At work, never. There are lots of disgusting websites like this one, http://savethemales.ca/200202.html which are hosted by very sad, middle-aged, unemployable men, but if you don't go looking for it, you won't really see it.

Sometimes what is thought of as sexism, is really just good manners.  Holding doors open for the next person is just a nice thing to do. 

I don't think the US is ready at all for a female president.

* Amended.  I should include all extremely religious people.  Orthodox Jews can be quite sexist as well, and very frum women of all kinds are usually sexist, or traditionally inspired, or whatever you want to call it.

not that im saying there is anything wrong with chivalry but you might be interested to know that scientific studies have shown that chilvalrous acts actually reduces self esteem in women

[Laura Lee]

not that im saying there is anything wrong with chivalry but you might be interested to know that scientific studies have shown that chilvalrous acts actually reduces self esteem in women

If you think opening doors for a woman, getting up and offering her a seat when there are none, pulling her chair out for her to sit, etc (chilvalrous acts) reduces a women's self esteem....you are outta your mind.  That is called being a gentleman, something a lot of men have forgotten about.  Michael is always a gentleman.  He unlocks and opens my side door, he opens ever door we approach, if we are not sat at a booth and I don't rush the chair (lol) he'll adjust the chair for me, he drops me at the door if it's raining or would have to park too far...he does a lot of gentlemanly things and it does not lower my self esteem one bit, if anything it increases it.

As far as Hilary or Obama, I am curious to how each would truly run the country.  It will be a first if either one wins.  My only concern if either one makes it is not going overboard trying to make a statement (ie: Hilary with "I'm the first woman president, things will be different for all women."  Obama with "I'm the first black president, things will be different for all black americans").  Instead I hope the message for anyperson who win's the presidency will be "I am the new president and we are all equal and I am going to do the best damn job for all Americans"

[tonymctones]

If you think opening doors for a woman, getting up and offering her a seat when there are none, pulling her chair out for her to sit, etc (chilvalrous acts) reduces a women's self esteem....you are outta your mind.  That is called being a gentleman, something a lot of men have forgotten about.  Michael is always a gentleman.  He unlocks and opens my side door, he opens ever door we approach, if we are not sat at a booth and I don't rush the chair (lol) he'll adjust the chair for me, he drops me at the door if it's raining or would have to park too far...he does a lot of gentlemanly things and it does not lower my self esteem one bit, if anything it increases it.

As far as Hilary or Obama, I am curious to how each would truly run the country.  It will be a first if either one wins.  My only concern if either one makes it is not going overboard trying to make a statement (ie: Hilary with "I'm the first woman president, things will be different for all women."  Obama with "I'm the first black president, things will be different for all black americans").  Instead I hope the message for anyperson who win's the presidency will be "I am the new president and we are all equal and I am going to do the best damn job for all Americans"

well laura like I said i dont see anything wrong with chivalry, Im from Texas and its real big down here trust me just about every guy does exactly what michael does at least that i know. BUT that is what the RESEARCH has said, not some cosmo opinion poll, or some yahoo.com study, this was a study done by profesional psychologist. Most of the things that you described probably wouldnt lower your self esteem. But if you look at it from a broader view and say that a man is always helping the woman to do something, lift up something(groceries, "heavy" objects at home, or always making the decisions, ordering for her at resturaunts, bills, and financial decisions, you might see how in the long run that might lower a woman's self esteem on how to do those things by herself. Like I said I dont see anything wrong with it if both people do it out of love for one another and not b/c that the way its supposed to be.

As for Hilary and Obama I actually wouldnt mind Hilary winning at all and im conservative

[BayGBM]

If you think opening doors for a woman, getting up and offering her a seat when there are none, pulling her chair out for her to sit, etc (chilvalrous acts) reduces a women's self esteem....you are outta your mind.  That is called being a gentleman, something a lot of men have forgotten about.  Michael is always a gentleman.  He unlocks and opens my side door, he opens ever door we approach, if we are not sat at a booth and I don't rush the chair (lol) he'll adjust the chair for me, he drops me at the door if it's raining or would have to park too far...he does a lot of gentlemanly things and it does not lower my self esteem one bit, if anything it increases it.

Interesting.

I’m all for doing nice things for people, but should they be done based on gender?  If the underlying ethos of chivalrous acts is that “this person is less or less capable than me because she is female” is that healthy?  I don’t think so.

I would be quick to help anyone with a handicap (in wheelchair, blind, etc) or someone who is infirm due to old age or an obvious injury, but is going beyond that—based on gender—good?  If I hold the door open for someone I think it should be simply because I got to the door first and holding it is a polite thing to do.  I would do this for a man or a woman.  Similarly, I might do all the things you mentioned for my other half—even though he is a man—because he is special to me.  It’s great that Mike does those things for you because he is a your companion, but do you expect other men should do those things for you as well?  If you expect men to do those things for you, but you don’t expect another woman to do them I think that IS sexism.

I’m with tonymctones: I think chivalry does undermine the equality and esteem of women.  But special courtesy between lovers is does not because it is something different.

It would be great to hear some lesbian opinions on this.  The other day at the gym on the magazine rack I saw and issue of Jane & Jane magazine http://www.janeandjane.net/

[w8m8]

Interesting.

I’m all for doing nice things for people, but should they be done based on gender?  If the underlying ethos of chivalrous acts is that “this person is less or less capable than me because she is female” is that healthy?  I don’t think so.

I would be quick to help anyone with a handicap (in wheelchair, blind, etc) or someone who is infirm due to old age or an obvious injury, but is going beyond that—based on gender—good?  If I hold the door open for someone I think it should be simply because I got to the door first and holding it is a polite thing to do.  I would do this for a man or a woman.  Similarly, I might do all the things you mentioned for my other half—even though he is a man—because he is special to me.  It’s great that Mike does those things for you because he is a your companion, but do you expect other men should do those things for you as well?  If you expect men to do those things for you, but you don’t expect another woman to do them I think that IS sexism.

I’m with tonymctones: I think chivalry does undermine the equality and esteem of women.  But special courtesy between lovers is does not because it is something different.

It would be great to hear some lesbian opinions on this.  The other day at the gym on the magazine rack I saw and issue of Jane & Jane magazine http://www.janeandjane.net/

I'm not lesbian but bi is close 
I feel what Laura's described that Michael does ( and tony ) as being chivalrous , gentlemanly , polite , and a very nice courtesy .
Based on gender ? there's the rub .. yes , if a man just walks into a door in front of me and allows it to close without an offer in my direction .. he's rude .   But if I were a man I wouldn't "expect" that courtesy.

Now since I'm bi and if I'm on a date with a woman , I find that we both do such things for each other , I've opened doors for girls and had chairs pulled out for me , so I can't see any difference there. I think of it being well mannered , and considerate.

For the type of things like taking care of the bills , then ummm no ..if the guy is doing it because he thinks she can't ...he's an ass and Yes a sexist.

The mindset of the person doing the gesture is what makes it a nice thing or a sexist act.

no ?



ps Laura your ideas on what the next President should be is very well said and I agree wholeheartedly , 

[BayGBM]

I'm not lesbian but bi is close 
I feel what Laura's described that Michael does ( and tony ) as being chivalrous , gentlemanly , polite , and a very nice courtesy .
Based on gender ? there's the rub .. yes , if a man just walks into a door in front of me and allows it to close without an offer in my direction .. he's rude .   But if I were a man I wouldn't "expect" that courtesy.

Now since I'm bi and if I'm on a date with a woman , I find that we both do such things for each other , I've opened doors for girls and had chairs pulled out for me , so I can't see any difference there. I think of it being well mannered , and considerate.

For the type of things like taking care of the bills , then ummm no ..if the guy is doing it because he thinks she can't ...he's an ass and Yes a sexist.

The mindset of the person doing the gesture is what makes it a nice thing or a sexist act.

no ?

That’s part of it.  The other part is the mindset and expectations of the person receiving the gestures.  When thinking about this, I think it’s important to draw a distinction between what we expect and accept from people we are very close to (our lovers, parents, children) and what we expect from strangers or people we know incidentally such as coworkers, neighbors, etc.

It seems to me that a lot of women demand equality when they see it as benefiting them (equal pay for equal work, voting rights, etc.) but they shrink from it when it disadvantages them (giving up expectations of chivalrous treatment, custody rights for men, etc.) and that’s not cool.

Either you want equality or you don’t.  You can’t pick and choose when and how you get treated equally.

I’m all for treating people equally, but people need to remember that equality is a double-edged sword.  Yes, it demands, for example equal pay for equal work, & voting rights for women and blacks, but it will also give gays and lesbians the right to marry & adopt children.  Similarly, it demands that chivalry go out the window.

[Laura Lee]

That’s part of it.  The other part is the mindset and expectations of the person receiving the gestures.  When thinking about this, I think it’s important to draw a distinction between what we expect and accept from people we are very close to (our lovers, parents, children) and what we expect from strangers or people we know incidentally such as coworkers, neighbors, etc.

It seems to me that a lot of women demand equality when they see it as benefiting them (equal pay for equal work, voting rights, etc.) but they shrink from it when it disadvantages them (giving up expectations of chivalrous treatment, custody rights for men, etc.) and that’s not cool.

Either you want equality or you don’t.  You can’t pick and choose when and how you get treated equally.

I’m all for treating people equally, but people need to remember that equality is a double-edged sword.  Yes, it demands, for example equal pay for equal work, & voting rights for women and blacks, but it will also give gays and lesbians the right to marry & adopt children.  Similarly, it demands that chivalry go out the window.

Having equality shouldn't mean giving up being a woman.  I believe we need more "gentlemen" in the world.  Like w8m8 said, there are some guys that will let a door just slam in a woman's face, let alone not holding it so she can enter prior to himself.  And I'm not looking at it biasly.  I have held the door open for many people, men & women alike out of respect for my fellow person. 

Yes I think if I am as knowledgable of a job and can handle the job the same as a man ... I should get equal pay.  We can't be equal in everything.  I do have a small problem with women on the line (war) and not because they are women, but because we are the weaker of the species, both physically and mentally.  And I mean mentally because we look at things (I think) differently than men do.  It's a huge issue to discuss in forum.  Lots of opinions from all walks of life.

[BayGBM]

Having equality shouldn't mean giving up being a woman.  I believe we need more "gentlemen" in the world.  Like w8m8 said, there are some guys that will let a door just slam in a woman's face, let alone not holding it so she can enter prior to himself.  And I'm not looking at it biasly.  I have held the door open for many people, men & women alike out of respect for my fellow person. 

Yes I think if I am as knowledgable of a job and can handle the job the same as a man ... I should get equal pay.  We can't be equal in everything.  I do have a small problem with women on the line (war) and not because they are women, but because we are the weaker of the species, both physically and mentally.  And I mean mentally because we look at things (I think) differently than men do.  It's a huge issue to discuss in forum.  Lots of opinions from all walks of life.

Ouch! My female friends (not to mention my mom) would kill me if I ever said something like that.  But I would never say that because I don’t believe it.  Looking at things differently does not mean weaker—it means different.

If women can be effective police officers and firemen they can be effective soldiers on and off the field of combat.  It doesn’t take big muscles to pull a trigger.  I don’t’ know much about warfare, but these days, I don’t think most battles are won by hand to hand combat.  I’m all for treating women—and all people—equally.

That said, I will still hold the door open for someone, male or female if I get to the door first.

[Hedgehog]

Having equality shouldn't mean giving up being a woman.   I believe we need more "gentlemen" in the world.  Like w8m8 said, there are some guys that will let a door just slam in a woman's face, let alone not holding it so she can enter prior to himself.  And I'm not looking at it biasly.  I have held the door open for many people, men & women alike out of respect for my fellow person. 

Yes I think if I am as knowledgable of a job and can handle the job the same as a man ... I should get equal pay.  We can't be equal in everything.  I do have a small problem with women on the line (war) and not because they are women, but because we are the weaker of the species, both physically and mentally.  And I mean mentally because we look at things (I think) differently than men do.  It's a huge issue to discuss in forum.  Lots of opinions from all walks of life.

First of all, woman and man are not different species.

They are different genders.

And what do you base your claim that women are mentally weaker than men on? Ie, what source do you have for such a claim?

[BayGBM]

I don’t mean to pile on.  I’m actually glad you said that because I think a lot of people share this belief even if they would never say it.  Lots of men and women believe it, they act on it, and they cast votes in accordance with it. 

[Laura Lee]

Ouch! My female friends (not to mention my mom) would kill me if I ever said something like that.  But I would never say that because I don’t believe it.  Looking at things differently does not mean weaker—it means different.

If women can be effective police officers and firemen they can be effective soldiers on and off the field of combat.  It doesn’t take big muscles to pull a trigger.  I don’t’ know much about warfare, but these days, I don’t think most battles are won by hand to hand combat.  I’m all for treating women—and all people—equally.

That said, I will still hold the door open for someone, male or female if I get to the door first.

I'm a woman and I'm allowed to say such things, lol.  We are weaker in strength than most men, not all men, but most of them.  And our emotions 9 times out of 10 will play a large role in pulling that trigger.  Sure if someone is going to kill us, we will find it easier to pull that trigger, but most women (especially if they have children) will have a harder time on the front line emotionally than men.  We have different primal instincts.   

[tonymctones]

I'm not lesbian but bi is close 
I feel what Laura's described that Michael does ( and tony ) as being chivalrous , gentlemanly , polite , and a very nice courtesy .
Based on gender ? there's the rub .. yes , if a man just walks into a door in front of me and allows it to close without an offer in my direction .. he's rude .   But if I were a man I wouldn't "expect" that courtesy.

Now since I'm bi and if I'm on a date with a woman , I find that we both do such things for each other , I've opened doors for girls and had chairs pulled out for me , so I can't see any difference there. I think of it being well mannered , and considerate.

For the type of things like taking care of the bills , then ummm no ..if the guy is doing it because he thinks she can't ...he's an ass and Yes a sexist.
The mindset of the person doing the gesture is what makes it a nice thing or a sexist act.

no ?



ps Laura your ideas on what the next President should be is very well said and I agree wholeheartedly , 

I probably should have clarified this probably wouldnt be considered chivalrous, however it is a possible outcome from the mindset of chivalrous acts. Most guys dont do this b/c they want to, they do this b/c it is what is expected of them. This is why I said if its out of love for one another then fine but not out of fear of being judged as a rude person. I dont understand how a woman can feel that she should have the doors opened for her and other aspects in the private world taken care of, but still demand equality in the professional world? It seems like a have your cake and eat it too kinda deal.
I also agree with laura I think Hilary would make a good president and not try and do things just b/c she was a woman iono about obama.

[Laura Lee]

I probably should have clarified this probably wouldnt be considered chivalrous, however it is a possible outcome from the mindset of chivalrous acts. Most guys dont do this b/c they want to, they do this b/c it is what is expected of them. This is why I said if its out of love for one another then fine but not out of fear of being judged as a rude person. I dont understand how a woman can feel that she should have the doors opened for her and other aspects in the private world taken care of, but still demand equality in the professional world? It seems like a have your cake and eat it too kinda deal.
I also agree with laura I think Hilary would make a good president and not try and do things just b/c she was a woman iono about obama.

I never expect it, but I do acknowledge it and appreciate it.  I also return it.   

[tonymctones]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "mentally" laura but honestly the way that it sounds id definitly have to disagree. Strongest person ive ever known in terms of emotional and mental strength is my mother. This woman has had RA for a few years now and still works about 80 hours a week. Gets up at 5 or so and doesnt get home till 10 or eleven or even later at times, goes to work on her day off's, when shes sick, and that doesnt include all the work that she brings home with her. Think about how mentally hard it is for a person who has been self sufficiant since she was 18 to not be able to cover herself when she lays down and not be able to open jars or even get into and out of cars by herself and then being able to get over all that and still work, Honestly the strongest person I know.

[tonymctones]

I never expect it, but I do acknowledge it and appreciate it.  I also return it.   

lol I always feel weird if a girl opens the door for me not holds it for me but actually opens it for me, it rarely happens but i always take like a stutter step, and seem to ask are you sure?

[Laura Lee]

lol I always feel weird if a girl opens the door for me not holds it for me but actually opens it for me, it rarely happens but i always take like a stutter step, and seem to ask are you sure?

Ya, I get that a lot when I hold the door open for a guy.



And regarding your post prior to this one....yes, a mother is certainly emotional strong when it comes to family.  Through a gun in her hand and put her in the front lines...I believe you would find her a different person.

[tonymctones]

Ya, I get that a lot when I hold the door open for a guy.



And regarding your post prior to this one....yes, a mother is certainly emotional strong when it comes to family.  Through a gun in her hand and put her in the front lines...I believe you would find her a different person.

so when lives are directly on the line then no a woman is not the right person for the job, so a woman can make the decision to take lives just not perform the act? Like a president, like if hilary won? is that what your saying? Then what about when there are millions of dollars on the line? That would mean that women arent the best canidates for certain jobs then as well, right? You seem to have two conflicting views one that women are the weaker sex and that they deserve to same oppurtunties and deserved to be paid equally.

[Laura Lee]

so when lives are directly on the line then no a woman is not the right person for the job, so a woman can make the decision to take lives just not perform the act? Like a president, like if hilary won? is that what your saying? Then what about when there are millions of dollars on the line? That would mean that women arent the best canidates for certain jobs then as well, right? You seem to have two conflicting views one that women are the weaker sex and that they deserve to same oppurtunties and deserved to be paid equally.

I think you are either not reading my statements clearly or just making your own assumptions pertaining my statements.  Do I think a woman who can do the job as well as man should be paid the same salary?  Absolutely, but they are not.
Regarding the weaker sex, I said there are parts of us (women) where we are definitely not equal to men.  We do not (averagely) hold the same strength (physically) as men so there are positions that I feel a woman should not partake in just because the job is trying to be "equal".  A lot of women are hired for the wrong jobs because of their fight for equality.  Just because I think I can be or want to be a firefighter, doesn't mean I should get the job due to those pushing for equality.  Sure if I can pass the test and have the strenth to pull a 200lb person from a burning building ... I definitely deserve the job, but if I can't ... I certainly should not get the job.  And I have seen some women get this exact type of job just because that particular station has a "female" quote.   

Now do you understand what I mean?

[tonymctones]

Having equality shouldn't mean giving up being a woman.  I believe we need more "gentlemen" in the world.  Like w8m8 said, there are some guys that will let a door just slam in a woman's face, let alone not holding it so she can enter prior to himself.  And I'm not looking at it biasly.  I have held the door open for many people, men & women alike out of respect for my fellow person. 

Yes I think if I am as knowledgable of a job and can handle the job the same as a man ... I should get equal pay.  We can't be equal in everything.  I do have a small problem with women on the line (war) and not because they are women, but because we are the weaker of the species, both physically and mentally.  And I mean mentally because we look at things (I think) differently than men do.  It's a huge issue to discuss in forum.  Lots of opinions from all walks of life.

you also talked about emotions, this would reason to imply that women arent suited for certain jobs not just physical jobs it if is as you state women are weaker then men mentally as well. Continuing with this logic it would also imply that women should not have the oppurtuniy to rise above certain positions in jobs b/c they are mentally weaker. A mentally weak person shouldnt be the CEO of a company if there is a person who is mentally stronger with the same qualifications should they? so are glass ceilings ok by you then?