Kai Greene: Health Problems after the shows?

[HTexan]

i do capitalize shit because hitting the shift key sucks.

[The Master]

Also, check this out (I'm white):
b]

Why = Debussey not suprised?

[Van_Bilderass]

While I have no idea what was (IF there was?) a problem with Kai...after the contest - I do want to point out ONE thing...
Numerous competitors in quest to dehydrate themselves sufficiently to please high standards of todays judging criteria - take Rx diuretics and often (so common to bodybuilders) they take MORE THAN ONE...

So, I will share this article (published in European Flex Magazine back in 2005)...

I think that THIS is a very common problem - and MAYBE (just maybe?) some of you guys would be in situation that YOU COULD make a difference and possibly save someone (dehydrated bodybuilding competitor who could be in whole lot of trouble if medical personal decides to act promptly - and after ONLY a visual diagnosis of dehydration /without establishing potassium levels of dehydrated bodybuilder/ they administer electrolyte/with potassium/ IV solution to poor competitor...who is /more than likely/ already HYPERKALEMIC (state of dangerously high levels of potassium in his blood - normally due to usage of potassium sparing diuretics for several days prior to competition...
Here is the article I wrote:

     European Flex, April 2005, HYPERKALEMIA

Q: Milos, I know that you competed more than any other professional bodybuilder and that you assist many other athletes in their contest preparation. I entered two shows in my life and both times got myself in serious trouble by getting myself severely dehydrated. First time I was experiencing painful cramps and I was told to take extra potassium. I eat two bananas and my cramps went away. However, in my second contest those extra bananas didn’t help. I believe I had at least five bananas and with each one - I was only getting worse. Finally, after the contest my wife had to take me to the hospital and doctors told me that I am lucky to be alive! My potassium levels were so high that I could have experienced a heart attack.
Also, they told me that my kidneys were failing and all that scared me so much that I decided to never compete again. Interestingly, two weeks after the show I checked with my doctor again – and he told me that I couldn’t be healthier!?
I remember that doctors in a hospital told me that I had‘ hyperkalemia’ and I was wondering if you are familiar with that term. Also, why do you think I had that problem and should I compete again?

Sincerely,
Jonathan

A: Dear Jonathan I am glad that you’ve asked me that question. In the last fifteen years I have seen with my own eyes and heard from others - really horrific stories about dehydrated bodybuilding competitors that had to be taken to the hospital. To be completely honest – even I got myself in similar situation during my competitive career. Let’s face it – to be competitive in the bodybuilding contest we have to achieve that lean, hard, DRY look that judges seem to like and award.
To be “dehydrated” is expected and accepted ONLY in the sport of bodybuilding!
While medical community would point out to us dangers of even moderate dehydration, we (the bodybuilders) being extremists - would not settle for just moderate and instead we would go “all out” and try for the extreme. Well, extreme is case of dehydration could be – deadly!
Doctor in the hospital did not exaggerate when he told you that you are lucky to be alive.
Your diagnosis was HYPER (too much) Kalemia (potassium) and that is serious medical condition that can lead to cardiac arrest.

Because I am certain that many competitors nowadays get themselves in this “hyperkalemic” state it is very important for me to explain to you HOW DANGEROUS this might be.
I have witnessed more than once (in US and Europe) that when paramedics are called to treat dehydrated bodybuilder – immediately they tend to believe that dehydrated bodybuilder is also hypokalemic (state of potassium deficiency). Many times after asking just a few “diagnostic” questions they would administer IV (intravenous) electrolyte solution or (even worse) IV potassium on the way to the hospital…
If that ever happen to you or someone you know – STOP THEM before is too late!
Putting extra potassium directly into the blood stream of hyperkalemic patient (bodybuilder) could be FATAL!
Unfortunately, physical symptoms of LOW (hypo) or HIGH (hyper) levels of potassium are quite similar.
Hyperkalemic patient (bodybuilder) would experience weakness, fatigue, dizziness, muscle cramps, nausea, vomiting, numbness, confusion, difficult breathing, and increased thirst – all signs of hypokalemia as well!
Paramedics are humans that could make honest mistakes - especially during emergency calls, when they’re rushed to make decisions and sometimes easily influenced by a common practice.
Again, commonly dehydrated patients with all of the above mentioned symptoms would be categorized as hypokalemic and therefore treated as such.
Many of us (in emergency situations) would also overlook the fact that manifestations of hypo and hyperkalemia are so similar. So remember to request for ECG – electrocardiographic test as this test could distinctively show the difference between the two (and if they do that test ask to see “T- wave” which is flattened in “hypo” and peaked in “hyper” and  “P- wave” that shows exactly the opposite). In the hospital doctor would order a blood test to determine levels of potassium. Once established – level of potassium is going to dictate appropriate treatment but I guarantee you – doctor will be grateful that you prevented paramedics in their intentions. For the reference normal values of potassium are 3.5 – 5.3 mmol/L or mEq/L (where serum potassium level under 3.5 is considered HYPOKALEMIA and over 5.3 is HYPERKALEMIA)

Now, you asked - why did you have that problem?
Of course, I cannot be certain but my first guess would be that you (more than likely) used some kind of diuretic (and I would bet – potassium sparing one), continued to eat high potassium containing foods while avoiding sodium and finally – restricted your water intake!
Chronic hyperkalemia (or hyperpotassemia) is serious illness usually caused by renal failure! You said that two weeks after the show you were back to your healthy self – so obviously your condition (high levels of K) was just acute (temporary on the day of your contest) caused by something that you did.
Very, very common potassium-sparing diuretic that bodybuilders use in their contest preparation is “Aldactone” or spironolactone. This particular diuretic became very popular in bodybuilding circuit for its inhibitory action on aldosterone (a hormone in our body that regulates body’s salt and potassium levels).
Last 2-3 days before the show many competitors drastically reduce their sodium intake (some almost completely eliminate it) with hope to lose extracellular water. At the same time they use this prescription diuretic with hope to block aldosterone, which would help them keep intracellular potassium while excreting sodium and water. This way they would be able to achieve that “dry and full” look (winning combination).

This year, after the finals of the Mr. Olympia contest I was having peaceful dinner with my close friends when I received disturbing phone call. It was no other than Shawn Ray who urged me to drop what I was doing and come immediately to Mustafa Mohammed’s room.
Mustafa is my dear friend whom I love like a true brother and when I got that call I was beside myself.
I run as fast as I could hoping that he is OK…Still, I couldn’t help but think that something terrible happened to him.
While I was running I remembered that during his posing routine at the finals he just wasn’t himself.
He is phenomenal poser who always brings breathtaking routines. More often than not – he gets a standing ovation from the audience for a true masterpiece…but this night he just didn’t deliver it.
I saw it on his face (that something might be wrong) but I didn’t really read into it.
As soon as I got there I saw Mustafa on his bed cramped up, dizzy, weak, throwing up…and he told me: “Milos, I feel bad. I mean - very, VERY BAD.”
Medical personal of Mandalay Bay Hotel came to the room and their “medical expert” concluded that Mustafa is severely dehydrated and needs fluids. So, he suggested a Gatorade (NOT a good idea as Gatorade contains potassium). I got in argument with that guy to the point that I yelled at him so laud – he run away from the room.
“Great!” said Shawn “what are we going to do now?”
“Call the ambulance – he needs to go to the hospital. This is SERIOUS!”
In 1992 I witnessed a tragedy when another IFBB pro bodybuilder got himself in the similar situation.
Mohammed Benaziza died that night and I was not going to take a chance with Mustafa.
Paramedics that came shortly after - did EXACTLY what I told you (warn you about it) here.
They also assumed that Mustafa is hypokalemic due to his severe state of dehydration. While they were taking him to the ambulance they were already planning to put him on the “IV electrolytes”.
I jumped in requesting that they absolutely cannot do that – as he was more than likely already hyperkalemic! Mustafa told me that he indeed used “Aldactone” so I was certain that this is the case.
Needless to say – I had to argue with both paramedics and I insisted to get into the ambulance with him.
[To get hydrated (on the way to the hospital) he did receive natrium-chloride and that is OK, but absolutely nothing that contains even smallest amounts of potassium should be used.]
When we arrived into the hospital I had to talk to a doctor who also wasn’t too responsive on my idea that their patient is “hyper” and not “hypo”-kalemic…
Doctors just don’t understand that somebody (we – the bodybuilders) would do that to ourselves. So, they don’t expect it.
Fortunately, in the hospital they would first check the blood, before they would do anything else.
When Mustafa’s result came (8.8 mmol/L) doctor realized that he doesn’t have a “normal situation” and he did admit that such a high amount of potassium could be fatal!
Doctors had to bring his levels of potassium down in a hurry and thankfully – they were very successful.
I must mention that Mustafa’s trouble alarmed a lot of people. Vince Scalissi from the Weider office and IFBB pro chairman Jim Manion were immediately available. Following the ambulance and spending a lot of time in the hospital were also Kris Dim, Kevin Levrone, Shawn and Kristy Ray and a pastor of the Shawn’s church. They all showed great concern and support and Mustafa was very happy to see them.

   
Talking to many competitors throughout the years I realized that this (“Aldactone”, low sodium and restricted water intake) is a common practice. Also (in the last two or three days) during the “carb loading” phase many competitors would choose carbohydrates that are also very high in potassium (bananas, dry fruits, potatoes, other fresh fruits, nuts, some vegetables and meats). One baked potato can have as much as 1000 mg of potassium, banana over 500 mg, cup of peanuts or almonds (for guys on low carb diet) also over a 1000 mg etc, etc
But, what some of the competitors fail to realize is that even the “normal” diet meals like fish, broccoli, chicken breast, asparagus and avocado (for example) can also have thousands of milligrams of potassium per serving!
Average protein portion (10 oz / 300 grams) of chicken is about 700 mg, while the same amount of fish would exceed 1000 mg of potassium per portion! Can you believe that the most common choice of the contest vegetable for most bodybuilders – broccoli has almost 500 mg of K per cup!?
Considering all that bodybuilders should think twice before they reduce their sodium and water intake while they’re reaching for the Aldactone – it is a bomb ready to explode!

In your first contest you probably didn’t use that (or any) diuretic and possibly tried to dehydrate yourself with more conventional (natural) methods. In that case you reached mild level of dehydration and mineral imbalance. As you said - two bananas with merely 1000 mg of potassium solved your cramping problem!
Should you compete again?
That decision must be yours. If you are concerned about your health (and you should be) don’t experiment with something that you don’t know enough about. Follow the sound nutritional program and remember that even a slight mineral and water manipulation can get you desirable results (don’t go for the extreme).
Several weeks before your next contest start using exact foods and amounts of particular minerals every day of the week. Than try to manipulate them just enough so you can reach healthy dehydrated state (without any muscle cramps) on exact day that you would want to “peak”.
If you have several weeks to practice I am certain (or at least confident enough) that you will find safe and effective method of mild dehydration (necessary for bodybuilding competition) that would not be deleterious to your kidneys, heart or health in general.

Good luck!

Until the next time,
Milos Sarcev

What do you think about Phil Hernon's tip? 

I wil give you one of my trade secrets to help you avoid cramping or possibly death during a competition.

1.Get yourself a pack of insulin syringes
2. 1 bottle pedialyte (sealed)
If you cannot drink fluids and are cramping before a show, mainline in your arm 1 cc pedialyte or more until cramping no longer exists.

[Bix]

No, I would say that it depends on the typo.

For example, you misspelled "wasnt", but that is no big deal since you obviously simply forgot to punch a key.  The distinction between "your" and "you're" is a little more serious.  It seems to me as if people who confuse the two don't understand the distinction.  It really reflects more broadly on their grammatical ability.  Typos are one thing, but grammatical errors in spelling is another thing.  But hey, maybe I'm wrong on that. 

I think or hope that as you grow older you'll be less likely to jump at every chance you get to discuss who's smarter than who.

[Meso_z]

What do you think about Phil Hernon's tip? 

Now we know who gh15 is. 

[jason armstrong]

apparently he had health problem after the ASC this year and after the NY PRO

any truth to this and what were the health problems if it is true ?
something to do with dehydratation ?

a bodybuilder with a dehydration probelm after a show? my my never heard that one before
now that's a new one!
 
thanks for posting the breaking news!

just kidding Stavy!!

[jason armstrong]

No, I would say that it depends on the typo.

For example, you misspelled "wasnt", but that is no big deal since you obviously simply forgot to punch a key.  The distinction between "your" and "you're" is a little more serious.  It seems to me as if people who confuse the two don't understand the distinction.  It really reflects more broadly on their grammatical ability.  Typos are one thing, but grammatical errors in spelling is another thing.  But hey, maybe I'm wrong on that. 

Doood c'mon withe tha spelll chek shat!!!  Fixed.  Dude, Come on with the spell check shit!!!

[jason armstrong]

Kai at the Arnold Classic wasnt doing too well before the finals, but not sure if he wasnt sick or something.

There are rumors of Kai not feeling well for the NY Pro show either, but apparently, he won the show with ease.  Kai should rest for a while, and decide soon on whether he is going to compete in the O or wait for the 2009 Arnold.

compeition is very stressful on the body...Ron called it right when people were commenting how out of shape kai was a week out of the NY pro...and ron said hed be in shape and win the NY pro Ron knows his shit about bb'ing.

these guys hormone load sodium load water load carb load tons of stuff to superhydrate then dehydrate and barely make it through a show and then blow back up with water again after the show...really the most unhealthy aspect of it...

[dr.chimps]

This is interesting that your post seems to be well informed and articulate yet you spelled "you're" wrong.  Maybe I have misjudged people spelling it wrong, and perhaps it is just an easy mistake to make and not one which reflects more broadly on their spelling abilities or intelligence.

 

[wannahit2]

Kai is fine, he was fatigued and had a stomach virus.  The stomach virus is going around these parts of New York right now. It's about a 2-3 day virus of vomiting and crapping. Saw Kai on Monday and he is fine.

[240 is Back]

Paramedics damn near killed Mustafa? Wow...

[dr.chimps]

Paramedics damn near killed Mustafa? Wow...

Rectum?......

[jason armstrong]

how come all these stomach viruses hang around backstage at buddybuilding shows all the times??

[toolarge4u]

I went through milo's exact scenerio from spiralaldactazide and my guy was puking and dying basically from too much potassium. Course they did listen to me and got him healthy very quick and he was out and on his feet in a day. They went another route though, they used dextrose and insulin. Also anti nausau medicine. Worked like a charm. Problem with BB'ers is you give them potassium sparring dirueitcs and exact instructions sometimes they still dont listen and do there own thing. They learn quick on there death bed though

[columbusdude82]

All these dehydration/diuretics threads make me wonder why any young man in his right mind would want to get into competitive bodybuilding in the first place?

Stavios, what is your own opinion on the use of diuretics and on dehydration?

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

Paramedics damn near killed Mustafa? Wow...

No, Milos and Mustafa himself almost killed Mustafa.  While I applaud the great thinking of Milo's, the fact is that he was his contest prep coach and is just as responsible for this mess. 


Now Milo's is going around telling people how great it is to use insulin for bodybuilding gains.  After couple of tragedies waiting to happen thanks to the mind...

[240 is Back]

Insulin has been in use for 15 years now.  I don't see anyone dying from that (not at shows... ten years down the road, oh yea, very possible)

dehydration/potassium imbalances are what kills guys.  and it's their choice.  they can't act naive like "I didn't know this was bad for me".

I worry about kai greene.  he has that suicidal conditioning, the graininess that dorian had.  He's pushing the envelope like others are not.  I belieev MD reported he was homeless 3-4 years ago.  Living like that might have given him the mindset of "damn the future, I'm living for today".  Couple reported sickness at the last 2 shows with his grainy conditioning... I really hope he takes a break, and is very careful at upcoming shows.

[Milos_Sarcev]

I went through milo's exact scenerio from spiralaldactazide and my guy was puking and dying basically from too much potassium. Course they did listen to me and got him healthy very quick and he was out and on his feet in a day. They went another route though, they used dextrose and insulin. Also anti nausau medicine. Worked like a charm. Problem with BB'ers is you give them potassium sparring dirueitcs and exact instructions sometimes they still dont listen and do there own thing. They learn quick on there death bed though

That is actually common practice...

Using INSULIN - to PUSH POTASSIUM OUT OF BLOOD INTO... - never mind...maybe some would actually guess...

Ever wondered what else INSULIN is good for?

[mac7000]

Actually, my point was that your post came across intelligently and that I have a tendency to assume people are not smart when they misspell obvious words.  If you read what I wrote (and it doesn't appear you did because the conclusion seemed to escape you), you would have noticed that I was second guessing my profiling when it comes to people who use bad grammar as it relates to my assumptions about their intelligence, since you appeared to be intelligent as expressed through your knowledge of emergency care.

Well put, I still think all your posts in this thread are distractors and add nothing to the discussion. I am not highly intelligent I just know all little about emergency medicine.

[Stavios]

I prefer not dehydrating at all !

but that's just me 

[Necrosis]

No, I would say that it depends on the typo.

For example, you misspelled "wasnt", but that is no big deal since you obviously simply forgot to punch a key.  The distinction between "your" and "you're" is a little more serious.  It seems to me as if people who confuse the two don't understand the distinction.  It really reflects more broadly on their grammatical ability.  Typos are one thing, but grammatical errors in spelling is another thing.  But hey, maybe I'm wrong on that. 

is there something wrong with you? you're an idiot with your long winded rantings. Possible self esteem issues?

[dr.chimps]

is there something wrong with you? you're an idiot with your long winded rantings. Possible self esteem issues?

No, he is just more 'intelligent' than the rest of us, and he doesn't want us to forget it. 

[columbusdude82]

I prefer not dehydrating at all !

but that's just me 

You are a wise man, Stavios.

Will you do my contest prep next year?

[Milos_Sarcev]

Very interseting post milos but I just want to verify a couple things.

1. Paramedics don't carry potassium... they carry 0.9 normal saline which is a salt solution.

2. Milos you were right by tellling that guy not to give gatorade but in that situation with someone vomitting IV access is the best route and the medics would have administered 0.9 saline.

3. If your in an ER and you want to convince the Dr. that a patient is hyperkalemic have them put on a heart monitor and it will show an elevated S-T segment which is indicative of hyperkalemia. Paramedics should know this as well.

Doctor in Midelharnis (spelling?) near Den Hag in Holland did exactly that - administer POTASSIUM to dehydrated yet already hyperkalemic Momo Benaziza...

Paramedics in Las Vegas and week later in Amsterdam also - did not plan to use saline but instead high potassium containing electrolyte solution WHICH I STOP them from using in both occasions.

I don't know what is normal procedure - and when I saw in Mandalay Bay that Paramedics are about to kill Mustafa - I interfered !

They were actually telling me to leave and NOT interfere with life-saving medical procedure...

When I asked IF electrolyte solution DOES have potassium and got affirmative answer - I insisted they cannot touch Mustafa - until they check his potassium levels...
I told them that saline solution which is potassium free IS the ONLY thing they could/should use - BEFORE they check Mustafa's blood levels of Potassium...

Paramedic actually tried to push me as he was going to escort me out of the room...which turned into me grabbing his arm and escorting him out of the room...with few words of choice with slightly higher tone of voice ...which resulted in Paramedics departure without a patient...and Shawn's comment: "Great job Milos - what are we going to do now?"

Anyway, I was little bit more political next time around - so before next group came to Mustafa's room - I prepared a speech - stating ALDACTONE, potassium sparing diuretic, HYPERKALEMIA...in every sentence - making point that under no circumstances they should even consider poking Mustafa with IV-Potassium of any kind...

I insisted to go IN Paramedics car WITH Mustafa to make sure nobody makes mistake...

In the hospital - after Paramedics reported to doctor on duty what happened - I got little speech:
"Sir, you understand that you were interfering with URGENT medical procedure...and our trained medical personal...bla-bla-bla..."

I jumped in with: "Excuse me - are you going to check his Potassium levels first?"

As the answer was: "Certainly..." I suggested: "Can we have this conversation AFTER results are in?"

Needless to say - I got apology from the doctor and conformation that indeed his potassium was so high - that even slightest increase of already super-high levels WOULD possibly be fatal.

Six days later now in Europe...exactly in the Drug-free Capital of the world (AMSTERDAM) - Mustafa arranged lovely DEJA-VU...(as I described in the article...)

With Ronnie Coleman, Kris Dim...big Steve Wainberger, Lilly (promoter of the show) ...and few others we had SAME CONCERNS - explaining to Paramedics that IN BODYBUILDING - DEHYDRATED DOESN'T MEAN AUTOMATICALLY HYPOKALEMIC...and in case they don't expect that (after all 1992 I witnessed with my own eyes what wrong assumption could lead to...and to make things worse - tragic experience /Momo Benaziza/ ..that I've witnessed during the 1992 European Grand Prix Tour WAS in the SAME country - HOLLAND...) - somebody should inform them...

And really - I had a hard time explaining to Paramedics first and later - doctor in a hospital in Amsterdam that Mustafa is CERTAINLY not hypokalemic...as they assumed from simple observation...

Doctor was actually mad - and telling me: are you (meaning: BODYBUILDERS) stupid?
There are easier way to commit suicide than that...

Why would anyone in their clear mind take high dosage of potassium sparing diuretics for days and simultaneously restrict or better yet stop completely drinking water while loading on potassium?

And that is DOCTOR IN (as I pointed out "Drug-free" capital of the Universe...) A-M-S-T-E-R-D-A-M...guy that have seen EVERYTHING and ANYTHING...and - did I say everything...as EVERY - THING...!

Well doc...I agree with you...but in order to answer that question you must realize there are two things necessary for "clear mind"...CLARITY and MIND...both often missing in bodybuilding practitioners - especially in their pre-contest dieting period...

So.../don't you love my laconic: "yes - no" answers...BTW/...to answer your question: I was NOT AWARE what Paramedics do in their order of importance and effective procedures...acting on medical emergencies...
In matter of just one calendar week (7 days) - I found out in a hurry that - not just in US...but worldwide...you better BE CAREFUL when you give your trust to medical personal - that can coast you...your life!

For some reason doctors are not really explaining what are they planning to do...and I often wondered WHY?

I suggest that you (all of us) should ALWAYS ask doctors WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU GOING TO DO?

As, I am sure more often than not - there are number of things we (bodybuilders...37.5% drug-free bodybuilders to be more precise) have FEW things to tell our doctors BEFORE they decide WHAT they really need to do with us...IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

[Van_Bilderass]

Insulin has been in use for 15 years now.  I don't see anyone dying from that (not at shows... ten years down the road, oh yea, very possible)

dehydration/potassium imbalances are what kills guys.  and it's their choice.  they can't act naive like "I didn't know this was bad for me".

I worry about kai greene.  he has that suicidal conditioning, the graininess that dorian had.  He's pushing the envelope like others are not.  I belieev MD reported he was homeless 3-4 years ago.  Living like that might have given him the mindset of "damn the future, I'm living for today".  Couple reported sickness at the last 2 shows with his grainy conditioning... I really hope he takes a break, and is very careful at upcoming shows.

I don't agree that Kai has 'Dorian graininess'. He has the gh/insulin look, very cut but not extremely grainy like DY.