The Adonis Diet Principles, Open-Source

[wavelength]

WOA WOA WOA
he changed minimum .5 gram to minimum 1 gram of protein? 
and he doesn't believe in cardio training? 

I think it's better to name a minimum which should work for everyone. My guess is that the value is lower, but from my experience I cannot tell right now. I know that below 0.5g is too low for me and above 1g is sufficient.

I don't think cardio is necessary as long as you stick to P3. The only difference it makes is that you can eat a little more. I don't see any other advantage from my experience.

[ASJChaotic]

yes, i was around 9% in my early 20's. then started a bulk - went up to 290's, now i'm 250's. lost alot of muscle going from 290 to 250 due to a long layoff following torn rotators.

its amazing how quickly strength comes with carbs.  

ooooops I missed the post where you said you were a steroid user 

[wavelength]

yes, i was around 9% in my early 20's. then started a bulk - went up to 290's, now i'm 250's. lost alot of muscle going from 290 to 250 due to a long layoff following torn rotators.

its amazing how quickly strength comes with carbs.  

What was your weight at 9%?
How old are you now?

[ASJChaotic]

I think it's better to name a minimum which should work for everyone. My guess is that the value is lower, but from my experience I cannot tell right now. I know that below 0.5g is too low for me and above 1g is sufficient.

I don't think cardio is necessary as long as you stick to P3. The only difference it makes is that you can eat a little more. I don't see any other advantage from my experience.

well, when I cut I eat 3500 calories and do 45-60 minutes  of cardio
so.....tell that to my abs 

[Fatpanda]

how fucking fat did you get to get up to 290? 
how tall are you?
how old are you?

probably around 20-25% fat at 290's

5'11"

30 years old.

What was your weight at 9%?
How old are you now?

i was around 210lbs at 9% when i was 23-25

[wavelength]

well, when I cut I eat 3500 calories and do 45-60 minutes  of cardio
so.....tell that to my abs 

What's your point? Skip the cardio and eat a little less. I have tried both, and it makes absolutely no difference.
Except for not running in a treadmill like a fockin' hamster.

[wavelength]

i was around 210lbs at 9% when i was 23-25

You must have been quite a beast, panda.

[ASJChaotic]

What's your point? Skip the cardio and eat a little less. I have tried both, and it makes absolutely no difference.
Except for not running in a treadmill like a fockin' hamster.

I tried eating less and not doing that much cardio for months
and I lost 30 pounds of muscle  
I need alot of food and alot of activity  

[shiftedShapes]

well, when I cut I eat 3500 calories and do 45-60 minutes  of cardio
so.....tell that to my abs 

I'll tell them as soon as I can see them, you're not that lean there stud.

[Fatpanda]

i have always liked to experiment. i've been as low as 147lbs(not really bodybuilding at that time, more cardio/sports)and as high as 290's. i've tried low carb, high carb, volume, hit, lots of cardio , no cardio, pre workout, post workout. and i feel i have finally figured some things out -  many of which tie up with your/adonis's thoughts.

however as for the weight numbers, they are just numbers. i might be as big a dex on paper, but in reality i know we are worlds apart.

i'm lucky in that i repsond well to gear, so if/when i do hit the test/deca, etc i think i will blow up. at the moment i'm very busy and can't give bodybuilding the time i would like, however in a month i will be free to go for it.

i already have what i need, just have to wait on the right time.

[wavelength]

I tried eating less and not doing that much cardio for months
and I lost 30 pounds of muscle  
I need alot of food and alot of activity  

That's interesting. When you lost the 30 lbs of muscle without the cardio, did you follow P1-P5, or was there at least one you didn't or couldn't follow for some reason?

[wavelength]

i have always liked to experiment. i've been as low as 147lbs and as high as 290's. i've tried low carb, high carb, volume, hit, lots of cardio , no cardio, pre workout, post workout. and i feel i have finally figured some things out -  many of which tie up with your/adonis's thoughts.

Would be interested to hear you findings in more detail, especially where they do not conform to the principles.

[Fatpanda]

well for a start i feel your protein recomendation is low. It will build muscle, but not optimally. whenever i have increased my protein intale to 1.5-2g/lbs i always got bigger.

also i feel nutrient timing is perhaps the most important factor to growth - at my biggest i hadn't touched a steroid. but i did eat loads straight after my workout. around 120-150g protein, 200-250g carb, 50g fats. the fats did get stored as fat however. in hindsight i wonder how i would have looked if a had zero fats after the workout (something i am trying now, and seeing great results - but with winny/dbol)

in the past, my leanest was when i did cardio after a workout. i understand and agree about calories being king, however i feel cardio can burn calories without negitively impacting metabolism. which is especially useful for me as a true endomorph type.

[Fatpanda]

workout wise, i saw great results from hst, in fact it is what i used to get to my heaviest weight, but it also burned me out, and made my quit lifting for 6 months.

max ot worked really well, and i got bigger immediately, but it killed my shoulders and is also responsible for my torn rotators  (well that and my lazy warm ups).

overall i think you can't go wrong with 3x10 per muscle twice per week.

at the moment i'm trying out a 20rm 10rm 5rm system per muscle group twice per week thats working really well 

[shiftedShapes]

well for a start i feel your protein recomendation is low. It will build muscle, but not optimally. whenever i have increased my protein intale to 1.5-2g/lbs i always got bigger.

yes when you gain adipose tissue you tend to get bigger

[Fatpanda]

yes when you gain adipose tissue you tend to get bigger

 

[ASJChaotic]

That's interesting. When you lost the 30 lbs of muscle without the cardio, did you follow P1-P5, or was there at least one you didn't or couldn't follow for some reason?

how many calories would a person eat ?
like 12X bodyweight?
how many calories would someone who weights 200 pound eat?
I'm 230 how many would I eat 

[mazrim]

well, when I cut I eat 3500 calories and do 45-60 minutes  of cardio
so.....tell that to my abs 

You're not all that lean there.

[ASJChaotic]

You're not all that lean there.

I know 
I'm wasn't getting ready for a contest so why would I be shredded? 

[shiftedShapes]

kung fu panda was great huh?

[Fatpanda]

kung fu panda was great huh?

yes i was 

[wavelength]

well for a start i feel your protein recomendation is low. It will build muscle, but not optimally. whenever i have increased my protein intale to 1.5-2g/lbs i always got bigger.

- Up to now they're called "diet principles".

also i feel nutrient timing is perhaps the most important factor to growth - at my biggest i hadn't touched a steroid. but i did eat loads straight after my workout. around 120-150g protein, 200-250g carb, 50g fats. the fats did get stored as fat however. in hindsight i wonder how i would have looked if a had zero fats after the workout (something i am trying now, and seeing great results - but with winny/dbol)

- Up to now they're called "diet principles".
- Do you have an actual comparison of doing exactly the same and just changing nutrient timing? I have.

in the past, my leanest was when i did cardio after a workout. i understand and agree about calories being king, however i feel cardio can burn calories without negitively impacting metabolism. which is especially useful for me as a true endomorph type.

- What we would need here is again an actual comaprison, where you would have followed P1-P5 on both diets and eliminated M5 on one of the two. I have done exactly that.

[wavelength]

workout wise, i saw great results from hst, in fact it is what i used to get to my heaviest weight, but it also burned me out, and made my quit lifting for 6 months.

max ot worked really well, and i got bigger immediately, but it killed my shoulders and is also responsible for my torn rotators  (well that and my lazy warm ups).

overall i think you can't go wrong with 3x10 per muscle twice per week.

at the moment i'm trying out a 20rm 10rm 5rm system per muscle group twice per week thats working really well 

IMO, they all work OK as long as you're training hard.

[wavelength]

how many calories would a person eat ?
like 12X bodyweight?
how many calories would someone who weights 200 pound eat?
I'm 230 how many would I eat 

That was not an answer to the question. The principles say nothing about the total amount of calories a certain individual would need to meet them. So again, did you follow P1-P5? Sorry to be obnoxious, but I'm really interested.

[Fatpanda]

- Do you have an actual comparison of doing exactly the same and just changing nutrient timing? I have.

- What we would need here is again an actual comaprison, where you would have followed P1-P5 on both diets and eliminated M5 on one of the two. I have done exactly that.

yes when i didn't eat before/straight after a workout my gains froze for quite a while, as soon as i ate immediatley after the w/o i grew - calories were equal.

no, as there is no way to acurately track the calories burned by cardio or weight without expensive hightec equipment, however as i said i am a endomorph, you clearly are an ectomorph. you can perhaps get leaner than me on higher calories, or perhps your body is more efficient at burning energy. where as i stalled at 9% despite only taking in 1000 cals a day + cardio+weights.