Author Topic: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?  (Read 9426 times)

Oldschool Flip

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Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« on: October 09, 2008, 04:47:00 AM »
Good video and makes you really think about unreasonable answers to support that God exists.

&feature=related

MCWAY

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2008, 05:37:46 AM »
Good video and makes you really think about unreasonable answers to support that God exists.

&feature=related

Unfortunately for skeptics, this tired question hasn't been the death knell for Christianity and faith in general, that they'd hope it to be.

The rationale that God doesn't exist, because He doesn't heal amputees, is a rather weak one and makes about as much sense as my daughter claiming that I’m not her father and I don’t exist, because I won't give her a jelly donut. It reminds me of the temptations of Jesus in the wilderness. He was challenged, saying "If you are the son of God, command these stones be turned to bread". Jesus didn't do that. I guess that means He wasn't the Son of God, right?

WRONG!!!

The point is that He's the Son of God, whether He turned the stones to bread or not. Same thing goes for His crucifixion. His antagonists dared Him to prove that He was the Son of God by coming down off the cross. They taunted Him, "He saved others; himself He cannot save". Again, this was a wrong conclusion, deducing that He didn't save Himself simply because He couldn't do so.

There's a saying I've heard over the years, that goes like this: "An apple tree isn't an apple tree because it produces apples; an apple tree produces apples because it's an apple tree".

Besides, as Scripture has documented time and again, people have witnessed the miracles of God firsthand and STILL not believed. Judas saw them and still betrayed Jesus; Peter saw His power; yet, when pressured, denied that he even knew the Son of God.

To use a phrase from one of my favorite movies, "TEN TIMES YOU HAVE SEEN THE MIRACLES OF THE LORD; and still you have no faith", that referring to the Israelites, still doubting God, despite seeing His direct intervention (via the plagues) in their deliverance from Egypt. And, barely a month out of Egypt, they ended up building that infamous golden calf as their new god.

The point is simply this: Witnessing a miracle of God is anything but a guarantee that someone will believe in Him. If that was the case for His chosen people and His very own disciples, it should be of little surprise that skeptics have such a reaction (whether they witness such a feat or not).

MCWAY

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2008, 05:52:06 AM »
With all of that said, here's a take from the other side of the story.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/why_wont_god_heal_amputees.html

Here's an excerpt, from the author:

The first wrong assumption is that a large number of Christians are able to dictate to God what He should do. Healings do not necessarily require large numbers of people praying, since most recorded healings have involved just one prayer. The second wrong assumption is that God heals all who are prayed for. Even the Bible records examples of Christians - even apostles - who were not healed, despite prayer. The third wrong assumption is that every Christian has the gift to heal people. The Bible clearly says that this is not so. A fourth wrong assumption is that somebody can be found who is "deserving." According to the Bible, none of us is worthy of being saved. However, God, in His love, saves the undeserving through His mercy. God does not heal everybody of every infirmity in this life.

I began working for my current boss in 1983 at the UCLA Inflammatory Bowel Disease Center. Within two years, I developed Crohn's Disease, the most severe form of Inflammatory Bowel Disease, which has no cure. I found myself unable to do things using my own abilities and strength. After two months of being bedridden in severe pain, I cried out to God, even though I was a deist at the time (I had gone from an agnostic atheist to a deist in college). Within three months all symptoms of Crohn's disease had disappeared. That was over 20 years ago, and no symptoms of the disease have ever reappeared. However, thousands of people have gone through our Inflammatory Bowel Disease clinics and not been cured. I am sure that most of those people have prayed to God, but are still suffering. For some reason, God chose to heal me, so that I would know that He was personally involved in the lives of people. God acts to produce eternal, spiritual outcomes, and not just temporal, physical changes.


Oldschool Flip

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2008, 02:46:39 PM »
The rationale that God doesn't exist, because He doesn't heal amputees, is a rather weak one and makes about as much sense as my daughter claiming that I’m not her father and I don’t exist, because I won't give her a jelly donut.
Claims of "miracles" happen all the time with people of faith. You can prove that you're her father, but claimers can't prove it miracles by God happen. Coincedence is what happens.
Quote
It reminds me of the temptations of Jesus in the wilderness. He was challenged, saying "If you are the son of God, command these stones be turned to bread". Jesus didn't do that. I guess that means He wasn't the Son of God, right?

WRONG!!!
If he could have that would at least been some proof.

Quote
The point is that He's the Son of God, whether He turned the stones to bread or not. Same thing goes for His crucifixion. His antagonists dared Him to prove that He was the Son of God by coming down off the cross. They taunted Him, "He saved others; himself He cannot save". Again, this was a wrong conclusion, deducing that He didn't save Himself simply because He couldn't do so.

There's a saying I've heard over the years, that goes like this: "An apple tree isn't an apple tree because it produces apples; an apple tree produces apples because it's an apple tree".

Besides, as Scripture has documented time and again, people have witnessed the miracles of God firsthand and STILL not believed. Judas saw them and still betrayed Jesus; Peter saw His power; yet, when pressured, denied that he even knew the Son of God.
I've witnessed great card tricks by magicians that seem that there was no way in the world I should be fooled. But common sense tells me it's a trick. Primitive people back then were also naive and fell for magic tricks. That's why almost every race has some sort of god or gods because they didn't have science back then to refute it.

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To use a phrase from one of my favorite movies, "TEN TIMES YOU HAVE SEEN THE MIRACLES OF THE LORD; and still you have no faith", that referring to the Israelites, still doubting God, despite seeing His direct intervention (via the plagues) in their deliverance from Egypt. And, barely a month out of Egypt, they ended up building that infamous golden calf as their new god.
Lol, except for the Bible, there is no evidence that the Jews were enslaved by the Egyptians. Again, stories told by selected authors by a committee to make people think there is a God.

Quote
The point is simply this: Witnessing a miracle of God is anything but a guarantee that someone will believe in Him. If that was the case for His chosen people and His very own disciples, it should be of little surprise that skeptics have such a reaction (whether they witness such a feat or not).
If that's the simple point, then why are these miracles much more explainable now? We're much smarter and more advanced with equipment that can actual prove things that happen with explanation.

Oldschool Flip

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2008, 02:53:29 PM »
With all of that said, here's a take from the other side of the story.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/why_wont_god_heal_amputees.html

Here's an excerpt, from the author:

The first wrong assumption is that a large number of Christians are able to dictate to God what He should do. Healings do not necessarily require large numbers of people praying, since most recorded healings have involved just one prayer. The second wrong assumption is that God heals all who are prayed for. Even the Bible records examples of Christians - even apostles - who were not healed, despite prayer. The third wrong assumption is that every Christian has the gift to heal people. The Bible clearly says that this is not so. A fourth wrong assumption is that somebody can be found who is "deserving." According to the Bible, none of us is worthy of being saved. However, God, in His love, saves the undeserving through His mercy. God does not heal everybody of every infirmity in this life.

I began working for my current boss in 1983 at the UCLA Inflammatory Bowel Disease Center. Within two years, I developed Crohn's Disease, the most severe form of Inflammatory Bowel Disease, which has no cure. I found myself unable to do things using my own abilities and strength. After two months of being bedridden in severe pain, I cried out to God, even though I was a deist at the time (I had gone from an agnostic atheist to a deist in college). Within three months all symptoms of Crohn's disease had disappeared. That was over 20 years ago, and no symptoms of the disease have ever reappeared. However, thousands of people have gone through our Inflammatory Bowel Disease clinics and not been cured. I am sure that most of those people have prayed to God, but are still suffering. For some reason, God chose to heal me, so that I would know that He was personally involved in the lives of people. God acts to produce eternal, spiritual outcomes, and not just temporal, physical changes.


It's jabber wocky. It's much simpler to say that they aren't healed or answered because God is an imaginary being. That's much easier to explain.

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2008, 02:56:22 PM »

 If that's the simple point, then why are these miracles much more explainable now? We're much smarter and more advanced with equipment that can actual prove things that happen with explanation.


MCWAY

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2008, 06:20:29 AM »
Claims of "miracles" happen all the time with people of faith. You can prove that you're her father, but claimers can't prove it miracles by God happen. Coincedence is what happens. If he could have that would at least been some proof.

Really? You can check Deem's medical records to see the documentation that he had that disease. You can give him a follow-up exam (or check the records from such) to see if he has it now. You can look at other cases study to show that Chron's disease has no medical cure, despite the attempted medical techniques used to get rid of the affliction.

Besides, your claim (and that of this video) is that God doesn't exist, if He doesn't answer a prayer to someone's liking. That's why I used the analogy with my daughter, the point of which you missed. I'm her father, whether I give her a jelly donut or not. Same goes for Jesus and the stones-into-bread thing.


I've witnessed great card tricks by magicians that seem that there was no way in the world I should be fooled. But common sense tells me it's a trick. Primitive people back then were also naive and fell for magic tricks. That's why almost every race has some sort of god or gods because they didn't have science back then to refute it.

Refute what? Science is simply observation and application of natural phenomena. Furthermore, your claim that people didn't have science back then is quite inaccurate.

Plus, exactly what type of "trick" feeds over 10,000 people with a lunch that could barely sustain a young boy? Or, what trick resurrects someone who has already been pronounced dead, wrapped in burial clothes, sealed in a tomb, and was starting to decompose?

Lol, except for the Bible, there is no evidence that the Jews were enslaved by the Egyptians. Again, stories told by selected authors by a committee to make people think there is a God.

That is incorrect. For starters, you have Egyptian steles and the writings of Josephus, as part of extra-Biblical documentation of Israel's enslavement in Egypt. Of course, there's that pesky Passover feast that the Jews have had for MILLENIA, to commemorate their deliverance.



If that's the simple point, then why are these miracles much more explainable now? We're much smarter and more advanced with equipment that can actual prove things that happen with explanation.

National Geographic tried that on a special about the Exodus, specifically with regards to natural explanations to the plagues that hit Egypt (BayGBM brought that up on a thread several months ago).

What that special DID NOT (and probably could not explain) is how those plagues:

a) occured at Moses' cue
b) affected primarily, if not exclusively, the Egyptians
c) did not cease, until Pharoah yielded and released the Hebrews


Ironically enough, this special was done, despite years of certain scholars DENYING that the Exodus occured or that the Israel was ever enslaved in Egypt. Now that such a claim has fallen flat, the trend now is to minimize Israel, claiming that they were much smaller in number than what is documented in Scripture.


It's jabber wocky. It's much simpler to say that they aren't healed or answered because God is an imaginary being. That's much easier to explain.

The problem with that is this guy (Rich Deem) was healed, according to his testimony. But, the point you missed, yet again, that his being healed or not has no bearing on whether or not God exists. Deem was healed; others with similar afflictions were not. I go back to my jelly donut anaology. Whether I give my daughter a jelly donut or not, I'm still her dad. Whether God healed Rich Deem of his Crohn's disease or not, He's still God.





Yet, with all the works of science, certain people STILL can't comprehend that such a claim ("every animal species lived within walking distance....") IS NOT MADE in the Bible.

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2008, 06:22:46 AM »


Yet, with all the works of science, certain people STILL can't comprehend that such a claim ("every animal species lived within walking distance....") IS NOT MADE in the Bible.

I wouldn't know. I prefer my super heroes and comic books to be more modern.

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2008, 06:36:50 AM »
I wouldn't know. I prefer my super heroes and comic books to be more modern.

You wouldn't know, yet you used that graphic to make your point. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2008, 06:57:50 AM »
You wouldn't know, yet you used that graphic to make your point. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

I don't know what happened in the last issue of Super Man comics to know it's fiction.  Hey, what ever makes you happy, it's all good. Everyones needs their imaginary friends to get through the day I guess. Me, I am looking forward to Santa visiting soon.... ::)

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2008, 08:24:12 AM »
I don't know what happened in the last issue of Super Man comics to know it's fiction.  Hey, what ever makes you happy, it's all good. Everyones needs their imaginary friends to get through the day I guess. Me, I am looking forward to Santa visiting soon.... ::)

If I actually had an imaginary friend, I'd agree with you. Fortunately, for me, I do not.

 ;D

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2008, 08:46:44 AM »
Really? You can check Deem's medical records to see the documentation that he had that disease. You can give him a follow-up exam (or check the records from such) to see if he has it now. You can look at other cases study to show that Chron's disease has no medical cure, despite the attempted medical techniques used to get rid of the affliction.
People survive falls and horrific maladies all the time. All over the world. Whether they are Buddists, Muslims, Christians or Athesists, there are many "miracles" that just happen. You're talking one man. It could happen without intervention from God.

Quote
Besides, your claim (and that of this video) is that God doesn't exist, if He doesn't answer a prayer to someone's liking. That's why I used the analogy with my daughter, the point of which you missed. I'm her father, whether I give her a jelly donut or not. Same goes for Jesus and the stones-into-bread thing.
Children starve in 3rd worlds. Christians go there to convert them to Christianity. Why are they still starving? Not worthy enough? It's been this way for a couple of thousand years. Does God need more time to think about it?


Quote
Refute what? Science is simply observation and application of natural phenomena. Furthermore, your claim that people didn't have science back then is quite inaccurate.
Uh no, science is usually factual not anecdotal. Yes they had science, but not even close to what we have now. They didn't know that dinosaurs existed and had no idea what they were.  

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Plus, exactly what type of "trick" feeds over 10,000 people with a lunch that could barely sustain a young boy? Or, what trick resurrects someone who has already been pronounced dead, wrapped in burial clothes, sealed in a tomb, and was starting to decompose?
Same trick that got you to believe it. It's a story. Just like Samson slaying how many thousand men in one afternoon. You believe it because the book you so adore says it's true. Lol, how do we know there wasn't a caravan of food hidden behind a hill?
 
Quote
That is incorrect. For starters, you have Egyptian steles and the writings of Josephus, as part of extra-Biblical documentation of Israel's enslavement in Egypt. Of course, there's that pesky Passover feast that the Jews have had for MILLENIA, to commemorate their deliverance.
Josephus life was way after Moses, so he could recount any story he wanted. He wasn't enslaved by Egyptians. Most of the slaves in Egypt were Egyptians that were poor, although I don't doubt there were also some Hebrew slaves. Egypt had conquered Israel, so this is how the story came about. And we've had Christmas for eons too, but we know that is a pagan holiday that was adopted by the Christians. Another great story.



Quote
National Geographic tried that on a special about the Exodus, specifically with regards to natural explanations to the plagues that hit Egypt (BayGBM brought that up on a thread several months ago).

What that special DID NOT (and probably could not explain) is how those plagues:

a) occured at Moses' cue (coincidence)
b) affected primarily, if not exclusively, the Egyptians (because they were there)
c) did not cease, until Pharoah yielded and released the Hebrews (they have the exact time line?)


Ironically enough, this special was done, despite years of certain scholars DENYING that the Exodus occured or that the Israel was ever enslaved in Egypt. Now that such a claim has fallen flat, the trend now is to minimize Israel, claiming that they were much smaller in number than what is documented in Scripture.


The problem with that is this guy (Rich Deem) was healed, according to his testimony. But, the point you missed, yet again, that his being healed or not has no bearing on whether or not God exists. Deem was healed; others with similar afflictions were not. I go back to my jelly donut anaology. Whether I give my daughter a jelly donut or not, I'm still her dad. Whether God healed Rich Deem of his Crohn's disease or not, He's still God.
I could pray to a jug of milk and get the same results. A yes answer, a no answer and a wait a see answer. God to you is a being you were told about. Do you think if you were lived in an isolated area away from Christianity, that you would have known about him? Doubt it. Guess what, it's still happening in the world today. Of course these tribes and people have their own Gods, but of course to you it's poppycock since you've been raised to believe that the Bible is the only true book. But to them it's how they were raised to believe.
I was raised Catholic and in a middle class family. At first not questioning my religion, until I was out on my own. The more I researched, the more I learned how religion is nothing more than a way to CONTROL people by fear. Christians fear Hellfire and Brimstone, so they do what a book tells them to so they can avoid it. Fear is a great way to get people to respond. Ask the media.




Quote
Yet, with all the works of science, certain people STILL can't comprehend that such a claim ("every animal species lived within walking distance....") IS NOT MADE in the Bible.
It's easy to explain. Continents divided, over millions of years (San Diego is creeping up to San Francisco at a rate of about 6 inches a year) and certain animals live where others don't. Australia is a great example of species of animals that are not found in other places on planet. Maybe that's where Noah's Ark really landed? Oh, wait no the Bible says it was Mt. Ararat so that has to be correct. ::)

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2008, 09:37:56 AM »
Children starve in 3rd worlds. Christians go there to convert them to Christianity. Why are they still starving? Not worthy enough? It's been this way for a couple of thousand years. Does God need more time to think about it?

Oldschool Flip,
And what exactly are you doing right now for those starving children in 3rd world countries?  Many Christian doctors, nurses, dentists and other volunteers from the US go several times a year to those 3rd world countries to provide those children with food, clothes, medicine, toys, build them shelters, teach them to read and write, etc. 

Why are they still starving?  Probably because there are way too many of them and more people in developed countries aren't doing what these Christians from the US are doing.

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2008, 09:47:34 AM »
I don't know what happened in the last issue of Super Man comics to know it's fiction.  Hey, what ever makes you happy, it's all good. Everyones needs their imaginary friends to get through the day I guess. Me, I am looking forward to Santa visiting soon.... ::)

Do you really believe some of the greatest thinkers of all time have wasted their time on a fairy tale? Couldn't there be just a little bit more to spiritual scripture than that?

Reading your post, I could very well argue the same as you do: you talk of things you are no "expert" of.

Reading the bible as an acurate historic resp. scientific description is misleading of course. That's not the purpose of spiritual scripture.

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2008, 10:39:23 AM »
People survive falls and horrific maladies all the time. All over the world. Whether they are Buddists, Muslims, Christians or Athesists, there are many "miracles" that just happen. You're talking one man. It could happen without intervention from God.

But, per Deem's testimony, it didn't. The medicine the doctors gave him didn't work, as he still had the disease. After his prayer, the disease is gone. And Deem cites no other medical treatments or procedures, after his prayer request. And, referencing Deem is hardly and exhaustive list.

When it comes to curing the deadliest of diseases, it takes BILLIONS OF DOLLARS and countless man-hours of deliberate work from sentient beings (scientists and doctors) to even ATTEMPT to cure such ailments. Yet, you believe that such things "just happen". That takes about as much (for lack of a better term) "faith" for you to believe, as it takes a Christian to believe that God healed him of that disease.


Children starve in 3rd worlds. Christians go there to convert them to Christianity. Why are they still starving? Not worthy enough? It's been this way for a couple of thousand years. Does God need more time to think about it?

Jesus said, during His time on Earth, that his disciples would always have the poor with them. And, that's their opportunity to not only minister to their physical needs, but to preach the Gospel as well. Until His return, and as long as we live on this sinful planet, we will have poverty and those vicitmized by it. The old-"because there is misery on Earth, there is no God" take simply holds no water.


Uh no, science is usually factual not anecdotal. Yes they had science, but not even close to what we have now. They didn't know that dinosaurs existed and had no idea what they were.  

Ummmmmm......"Dinosaur" is a 19th-CENTURY TERM; the first Bible that was translated into English happened nearly 200 years before that word came into existence. So, where do you get this claim that these people had no idea what the creatures, now known as "dinosaurs" were?


Same trick that got you to believe it. It's a story. Just like Samson slaying how many thousand men in one afternoon. You believe it because the book you so adore says it's true. Lol, how do we know there wasn't a caravan of food hidden behind a hill?

And this "trick" would be what? BTW, I'm sure there are plenty of "stories" you believe that you can't prove to be valid. But, that's another issue for another time.



 Josephus life was way after Moses, so he could recount any story he wanted. He wasn't enslaved by Egyptians. Most of the slaves in Egypt were Egyptians that were poor, although I don't doubt there were also some Hebrew slaves. Egypt had conquered Israel, so this is how the story came about. And we've had Christmas for eons too, but we know that is a pagan holiday that was adopted by the Christians. Another great story.

Josephus has access to records, that documented the Israelites enslavement in Egypt, among those being the works of Egyptian historian, Manetho. Josephus cited those historical references in his writings. Most historical accounts from ancient figures are documented by people who lived after those figure's lifetimes. These historians has access to documents, which have been either destroyed or remain lost. Regardless,  your claim of there being no extra-Biblical documentation of the Israelites being enslaved in Egypt is incorrect. So, your attempt to frame Josephus as simply recounting the story as he please is quite feeble.

As for Christmas, the recognition of the birth of Jesus may have been grafted onto a pagan holiday. But, for that to happen, the event HAD TO HAVE OCCURED in the first place.



 I could pray to a jug of milk and get the same results. A yes answer, a no answer and a wait a see answer. God to you is a being you were told about. Do you think if you were lived in an isolated area away from Christianity, that you would have known about him? Doubt it.

Wrong again. History shows how the Christianity spread in certain parts of the planet, far removed from Israel. People who live in countries, in which practicing Christianity is punishable by DEATH are still learning about the Gospel.


 Guess what, it's still happening in the world today. Of course these tribes and people have their own Gods, but of course to you it's poppycock since you've been raised to believe that the Bible is the only true book. But to them it's how they were raised to believe.

As is usually the case, you forget about the many millions of Christians who WERE NOT RAISED to believe in Christianity but did so later in their adult lives. And that's happening WORLDWIDE, far away from the USA (or North America, for that matter).


I was raised Catholic and in a middle class family. At first not questioning my religion, until I was out on my own. The more I researched, the more I learned how religion is nothing more than a way to CONTROL people by fear. Christians fear Hellfire and Brimstone, so they do what a book tells them to so they can avoid it. Fear is a great way to get people to respond. Ask the media.

You were raised Catholic.......AND? As I said earlier, Christians come from all walks of like. Some were raised in the faith and remained in it. Others were not raised as Christians, yet they became Christians later in life. Furthermore, others who were once atheists did their research (just like you) and became Christians as a result. Rich Deem, the guy referenced with the Crohn's disease, is one such fellow.

In fact, if you ask people, who have become believers as adults, most will tell you that fear of hell had little to do with their conversion.



I almost forgot!!

a) occured at Moses' cue (coincidence)
b) affected primarily, if not exclusively, the Egyptians (because they were there)
c) did not cease, until Pharoah yielded and released the Hebrews (they have the exact time line?)


A normally-prosperous Egypt just happens to get slammed with calamities, upon Moses' return (nevermind that no warnings of such hit the scene prior to his arrival). They start when Moses says they'll start; stop when he says they'll stop. And the ultimate end to them all results in the most powerful man in the world, yielding to the demands of his slaves, and allowing them to take his nation's wealth, after all of Egypt's firstborn INCLUDING the Pharoah's own (and excluding a handful, smart enough to get to a marked Hebrew house).

Concidence??? I don't think so!!!  ;D

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2008, 12:52:49 PM »
Oldschool Flip,
And what exactly are you doing right now for those starving children in 3rd world countries?  Many Christian doctors, nurses, dentists and other volunteers from the US go several times a year to those 3rd world countries to provide those children with food, clothes, medicine, toys, build them shelters, teach them to read and write, etc. 

Why are they still starving?  Probably because there are way too many of them and more people in developed countries aren't doing what these Christians from the US are doing.
Actually it's because the governments are corrupt and don't give a crap about it. And to be honest, I don't feel compelled to volunteer to help. I have my family that I care about and want to ensure my genes and family continue on down the cycle.
It doesn't make sense to take care of other countries when we can't take care of our own first. Why don't doctors, nurses and others whom volunteer just run free clinics here to the poor and unfortunate if that's their goal.
I'll help out friends and even organization locally because I feel it helps the community, but to do it because you think it's "saintly" is just a feel good act. Even if I did, I'd be condemned to hell anyway since I don't accept Jesus as any type of savior, according to you or any other Christian, so why bother doing just good deeds? According to your Bible it would be for naught.

Oldschool Flip

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2008, 01:26:06 PM »
But, per Deem's testimony, it didn't. The medicine the doctors gave him didn't work, as he still had the disease. After his prayer, the disease is gone. And Deem cites no other medical treatments or procedures, after his prayer request. And, referencing Deem is hardly and exhaustive list.

When it comes to curing the deadliest of diseases, it takes BILLIONS OF DOLLARS and countless man-hours of deliberate work from sentient beings (scientists and doctors) to even ATTEMPT to cure such ailments. Yet, you believe that such things "just happen". That takes about as much (for lack of a better term) "faith" for you to believe, as it takes a Christian to believe that God healed him of that disease.
I have faith in science. Where AIDS was considered by many Christians a disease from God to show his anger towards homosexuals, we now have medicines to put it into dormancy. Guess God didn't think about that. And you're right, only Christians believe good fortune bestows upon them when good things happen like the lottery, or some unfounded treasure, or survival from a hurricane. Yet there are other millions of Christians that are unfortunate, but don't blame God for death from violence, accidents that mame them and they lose everything in the process, etc.

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Jesus said, during His time on Earth, that his disciples would always have the poor with them. And, that's their opportunity to not only minister to their physical needs, but to preach the Gospel as well. Until His return, and as long as we live on this sinful planet, we will have poverty and those vicitmized by it. The old-"because there is misery on Earth, there is no God" take simply holds no water.
Lol, drug lords appeal to poor youth too. It's easy to influence poor people with something when they have nothing.

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Ummmmmm......"Dinosaur" is a 19th-CENTURY TERM; the first Bible that was translated into English happened nearly 200 years before that word came into existence. So, where do you get this claim that these people had no idea what the creatures, now known as "dinosaurs" were?
SHow me the translation from the original HEBREW BIBLE. Not some conjourned up New Edition English Bible.

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And this "trick" would be what? BTW, I'm sure there are plenty of "stories" you believe that you can't prove to be valid. But, that's another issue for another time.
You can't be so naive to think that there weren't con men back in that era would you? People haven't really changed much in behavior in a few thousand years. They've just changed the way they scam people.


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Josephus has access to records, that documented the Israelites enslavement in Egypt, among those being the works of Egyptian historian, Manetho. Josephus cited those historical references in his writings. Most historical accounts from ancient figures are documented by people who lived after those figure's lifetimes. These historians has access to documents, which have been either destroyed or remain lost. Regardless,  your claim of there being no extra-Biblical documentation of the Israelites being enslaved in Egypt is incorrect. So, your attempt to frame Josephus as simply recounting the story as he please is quite feeble.
The Bible is a compilation of "stories" from some 80 authors, whom were chosen by a committee. There were more than 800 contributors all with their accounts during that time, but many weren't chosen. Just like the Great Flood that supposedly killed everyone except Noah and his family, was documented in China and also in South America at about the same time frame. How did happen when everyone was supposed to die? Because people back then didn't SEE the whole world or beyond just what they thought was the world.

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As for Christmas, the recognition of the birth of Jesus may have been grafted onto a pagan holiday. But, for that to happen, the event HAD TO HAVE OCCURED in the first place.
Doesn't change the fact that info was inaccurate.


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Wrong again. History shows how the Christianity spread in certain parts of the planet, far removed from Israel. People who live in countries, in which practicing Christianity is punishable by DEATH are still learning about the Gospel.
Dude you're killing me! ;D Christianity wasn't spread until Christians left Europe.

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As is usually the case, you forget about the many millions of Christians who WERE NOT RAISED to believe in Christianity but did so later in their adult lives. And that's happening WORLDWIDE, far away from the USA (or North America, for that matter).
How can you be Christian if you didn't have that denomination? Show me an example.

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You were raised Catholic.......AND? As I said earlier, Christians come from all walks of like. Some were raised in the faith and remained in it. Others were not raised as Christians, yet they became Christians later in life. Furthermore, others who were once atheists did their research (just like you) and became Christians as a result. Rich Deem, the guy referenced with the Crohn's disease, is one such fellow.

In fact, if you ask people, who have become believers as adults, most will tell you that fear of hell had little to do with their conversion.
It goes both ways. Many "believers" left Christianity to become atheists as well. My point about being Catholic was that everyone in my family is Catholic because our parents wanted it that way. What about people becoming Muslims or Buddists which don't agree with much in the Bible? You can argue about the "being Christians" before they even knew it, but common sense will tell you that if you raise ANY CHILD in a certain enviroment, they will adapt to that enviroment.
There are too many examples of this to show, but a couple would be young boys becoming men in whipping contests in Africa, eating cats and dogs like regular food in Asia, etc. Kids follow what they see.



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I almost forgot!!

a) occured at Moses' cue (coincidence)
b) affected primarily, if not exclusively, the Egyptians (because they were there)
c) did not cease, until Pharoah yielded and released the Hebrews (they have the exact time line?)


A normally-prosperous Egypt just happens to get slammed with calamities, upon Moses' return (nevermind that no warnings of such hit the scene prior to his arrival). They start when Moses says they'll start; stop when he says they'll stop. And the ultimate end to them all results in the most powerful man in the world, yielding to the demands of his slaves, and allowing them to take his nation's wealth, after all of Egypt's firstborn INCLUDING the Pharoah's own (and excluding a handful, smart enough to get to a marked Hebrew house).

Concidence??? I don't think so!!!  ;D
It's anecdotal. Plagues hit not only Egypt but China and other countries as well. Millions died. Another story in the Bible that doesn't coincide with Rameses real life.

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2008, 01:29:26 PM »
Really? You can check Deem's medical records to see the documentation that he had that disease. You can give him a follow-up exam (or check the records from such) to see if he has it now. You can look at other cases study to show that Chron's disease has no medical cure, despite the attempted medical techniques used to get rid of the affliction.



chrons is a relapsing, remitting disease, there are numerous people who have had years of remission. Similar to childhood asthma, or any other immunological disease. What it proves is what we know, chrons can go into remission as it is an auto immune disease. No god is needed to explain it. Why doesnt god just heal an amputee something we know cant happen, remission in chrons is not impossible or improbable. Every miracle god conducts can be explained, why doesnt he just do something obvious and unexplanable?

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2008, 01:30:45 PM »
I also want to add that people have been cured per se of IBD depending on the etiology. I have worked with doctors who have alleviated all symptoms by finding food allergies for example. GOD DID IT.

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2008, 01:33:19 PM »
Do you really believe some of the greatest thinkers of all time have wasted their time on a fairy tale? Couldn't there be just a little bit more to spiritual scripture than that?

Reading your post, I could very well argue the same as you do: you talk of things you are no "expert" of.

Reading the bible as an acurate historic resp. scientific description is misleading of course. That's not the purpose of spiritual scripture.

Memeplexes engrained in childhood, combined with fear of death and mortality= powerful. We often compartmentalize our thinking to combine rational and irrational, your appeal to authority is also a fallacy and not worthy of argument.

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2008, 01:46:56 PM »
Memeplexes engrained in childhood, combined with fear of death and mortality= powerful. We often compartmentalize our thinking to combine rational and irrational, your appeal to authority is also a fallacy and not worthy of argument.

Not exactly a new argument, reducing spirituality to fear and wishful thinking. It has absolutely nothing to do with either one. It also has nothing to do with appeal to authority, at least not in the way you put it.

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2008, 02:04:35 PM »
I have faith in science. Where AIDS was considered by many Christians a disease from God to show his anger towards homosexuals, we now have medicines to put it into dormancy. Guess God didn't think about that. And you're right, only Christians believe good fortune bestows upon them when good things happen like the lottery, or some unfounded treasure, or survival from a hurricane. Yet there are other millions of Christians that are unfortunate, but don't blame God for death from violence, accidents that mame them and they lose everything in the process, etc.

Exactly how does some Christians thinking AIDS is a punishment to homosexuals equate to things just happening, especially as it relates to curing diseases? You claimed that people just survive horrible maladies all the time. If that's the case, why do scientists have to develop medicine to treat symptons of AIDS (that certainly doesn't just "happen" on its own)?

Knowledgable, living, and sentient beings have to spend MILLIONS of dollars and BILLIONS of man-hours just to develop medicine to simply TREAT the symptoms of this dreaded disease.


Lol, drug lords appeal to poor youth too. It's easy to influence poor people with something when they have nothing.

If that's the case, maybe some atheists should go and spread their godless message to the downtrodden. Then again, considering how many of them tend to be a bit on the snobby, intellectually-"elite" side, that probably won't happen.


SHow me the translation from the original HEBREW BIBLE. Not some conjourned up New Edition English Bible.

That's the point. The word, "dinosaur" is an English word, make two centuries after the KJV was translated. So, of course, you're not going to see that word in the KJV.

You can't be so naive to think that there weren't con men back in that era would you? People haven't really changed much in behavior in a few thousand years. They've just changed the way they scam people.

Con men of the era were often exposed and often PUT TO DEATH for such a fabrication. That, of course, doesn't help your argument, as you've yet to establish that such was the case with regards to the Bible, particularly the New Testament. Plus, there's the little matter of how EASILY Christianity could have exposed, had it been fabricated. Simply produce the body of Christ or get a confession out of the disciples that they fabricated the whole thing (a big stretch, since you claim they were so naive and ignorant), and the movement dies, before it really gets off the ground.

The Bible is a compilation of "stories" from some 80 authors, whom were chosen by a committee. There were more than 800 contributors all with their accounts during that time, but many weren't chosen. Just like the Great Flood that supposedly killed everyone except Noah and his family, was documented in China and also in South America at about the same time frame. How did happen when everyone was supposed to die? Because people back then didn't SEE the whole world or beyond just what they thought was the world.

South America and China (as well as scores of other nations and cultures) just happen to have some documentation that, at some point in this planet's history, this planet was destroyed by a massive flood, with only a handful of people surviving by stating on a floating vessel. Again, coincidence? I don't think so.

There are many descriptions of the remarkable event [the Genesis Flood]. Some of these have come from Greek historians, some from the Babylonian records; others from the cuneiform tablets, and still others from the mythology and traditions of different nations, so that we may say that no event has occurred either in ancient or modern times about which there is better evidence or more numerous records, than this very one which is so beautifully but briefly described in the sacred Scriptures. It is one of the events which seems to be familiar to the most distant nations—in Australia, in India, in China, in Scandinavia, and in the various parts of America. It is true that many look upon the story as it is repeated in these distant regions, as either referring to local floods, or as the result of contact with civilized people, who have brought it from historic countries, and yet the similarity of the story is such as to make even this explanation unsatisfactory. - Stephen D. Peet, “The Story of the Deluge,” American Antiquarian, Vol. 27, No. 4, July–August 1905, p. 203



Doesn't change the fact that info was inaccurate.

What info would that be?

Dude you're killing me! ;D Christianity wasn't spread until Christians left Europe.

Try that again! Christianity spread to Africa, Asia, and other countries LONG before it ever got to Europe.



How can you be Christian if you didn't have that denomination? Show me an example.

Why don't you ask Christians in the Middle East, particularly ones who've had family members executed for converting to Christianity in MUSLIM countries? I recall one guy, cutting out his daughter's tongue and setting her on fire, because she ditched Islam for Christianity.

As far as a living example goes, the son of a Hamas leader just did that not too long ago.

Son of Hamas Leader Turns Back on Islam and Embraces Christianity


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,402483,00.html



It goes both ways. Many "believers" left Christianity to become atheists as well. My point about being Catholic was that everyone in my family is Catholic because our parents wanted it that way. What about people becoming Muslims or Buddists which don't agree with much in the Bible? You can argue about the "being Christians" before they even knew it, but common sense will tell you that if you raise ANY CHILD in a certain enviroment, they will adapt to that enviroment.

It does go both ways. Your initial claim was that people were Christians, simply and primarily because they were raised in Christian households. That's not always the case. There are those who get raised in such houses who DON'T become or remain Christians. And, there are those were NOT raised in such homes who later become Christians. At the end of the day, it's a decision they have to make on their own.

It's anecdotal. Plagues hit not only Egypt but China and other countries as well. Millions died. Another story in the Bible that doesn't coincide with Rameses real life.

But, do those plagues come with the arrival of a member of that kingdom's slaves, who was once a ruler there? Do those plagues, a devastating one in particular, force a king to release a race of people, giving them a huge hunk of his wealth, in the process? NOPE!!!

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2008, 09:19:26 PM »
Not exactly a new argument, reducing spirituality to fear and wishful thinking. It has absolutely nothing to do with either one. It also has nothing to do with appeal to authority, at least not in the way you put it.

memetics explains it well along with childrens programming to obey parents and accept rules and information without criticism. Memetic theory combined with the above explains it quite well, you are mistaken.


Do you really believe some of the greatest thinkers of all time have wasted their time on a fairy tale? Couldn't there be just a little bit more to spiritual scripture than that?




appeal to authority, plain and simple. Just because great thinkers have viewed the bible as truthful , this does nothing to support its position as truth.

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2008, 07:43:27 AM »
memetics explains it well along with childrens programming to obey parents and accept rules and information without criticism. Memetic theory combined with the above explains it quite well, you are mistaken.

Pseudophilosphic / pseudoscientific nonsense, I'm afraid. Part of it may be valid, but the problem is again that restrictions are not recognized.

appeal to authority, plain and simple. Just because great thinkers have viewed the bible as truthful , this does nothing to support its position as truth.

Do I come across as someone who is interested in spirituality because of his "appeal to authority"? You are right however, that great thinkers can be wrong. But we should at least assume that they are smart enough to have considered all the philosophic child-play we are performing here.

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Re: Why won't God do a miracle and heal amputees?
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2008, 08:14:12 AM »
Pseudophilosphic / pseudoscientific nonsense, I'm afraid. Part of it may be valid, but the problem is again that restrictions are not recognized.

Do I come across as someone who is interested in spirituality because of his "appeal to authority"? You are right however, that great thinkers can be wrong. But we should at least assume that they are smart enough to have considered all the philosophic child-play we are performing here.

memetic theory has mathematical models and predictive reliability.

Agreed on the last point. You really didnt make an argument in this response however.