Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??

[liberalismo]

Look I am not a scientist. I just know that while this is our most solid understanding of our origins, we have so much more to learn. There is still a great deal we do not understand. It is not my intention to disprove evolutiono or even say is has no validity as that would be foolish. The whole point of my post is that it seems very frighting that in the United States that we can not deviate from a theory however grounded without serious remifications. To me this seems like an academic thought police state. Provided there is scientific basis for these types of research, I dont understand why there needs to be such hatred towards these scientists.

Also please dont tell me what to say/not say again. Read what I said. I said "correct me if I am wrong, scientists cannot prove/disprove that all live was evolved from a single celled organism can they?"

I then stated "They certainly do not know how that first cell was created."

Isnt abiogenesis the development of life from nonliving matter? That is a bit different from my previous statement in which i asked if scientists could prove that all life evoled from a single celled organism. 

My last comment was alluding to abiogenesis and the fact that there is no answer yet to how this process happened.

The only reason I even mentioned it in this respect is that I thought that Darwin referenced the possibility of the first cell bieng created by a lighting strike in a pool of muddy water and all life forms coming from that culimnation of that...

There is ZERO scientific basis for intelligent design or creationism. Scientific papers are often posted that QUESTION specific aspects of evolutionary theory, and are treated just like any scientific papers and are peer reviewed and criticized and evaluated. However if someone tries to say that "Evolution isn't true" or that "Common descent didn't occur" then they would be laughed at, and rightfully so, since we KNOW 100% that evolution is true and that common descent is a fact.

ANYWAY, people who do write books or publish papers trying to refute evolution or give credibility to intelligent design are ALWAYS refuted. Their work isn't ignored, it is evaluated and refuted. Look at the stuff done by Michael Behe and see how so many scientist have closely examined his claims and refuted them over and over and over.

[Necrosis]

Acupuncture doesn't work. Sticking needles into one's skin relieves pain. There is a difference. Acupuncture is a discipline based on, as you say, energy fields and chi and what not, and these things don't exist. Human "bio-fields" exist, but aren't the "chi" as described by ancient Chinese, biofields exist in non-living things such as dead plants, and there is no correlation between the pain relief of sticking needles into one's skin and the biofields.

It works because of how the brain perceives pain and injury. A needle won't cause any real pain, but the brain will perceive injury and will release endorphins.

im not sure you have read the research, have you?

the meridians can be seen as actual examples of high energy conduits within the nervous system, they can possibly effect nervous system processing as it effects electrical inputs. If what you say is true then cutting oneself should provide the same benefits as accupuncture regardless of the point.

Ill dig through the research so we can have a look at it.

[liberalismo]

im not sure you have read the research, have you?

the meridians can be seen as actual examples of high energy conduits within the nervous system, they can possibly effect nervous system processing as it effects electrical inputs. If what you say is true then cutting oneself should provide the same benefits as accupuncture regardless of the point.

Ill dig through the research so we can have a look at it.

No. I don't buy that. "high energy conduits"? I've seen no proof showing that sticking needles into the skin has any relation to any bio-field in humans or anything about "high energy conduits" or "electrical inputs".


Yes. Cutting yourself does provide the same effects of acupuncture, but stronger. This is why teenagers cut themselves, to get the release of endorphins. It creates a high for them.

[Necrosis]

Zhongguo Zhen Jiu. 2008 Oct;28(10):727-9.
[Observation on therapeutic effect of electroacupuncture on activity disturbance of the shoulder joint after operation of fracture][Article in Chinese]


Luo KM, Hou Z, Yang L.
Department of Rehabilitation Medicine, Tangshan City Second Hospital, Tangshan, Hebei 063000, China. tstslkm@163.com

OBJECTIVE: To observe clinical therapeutic effects of electroacupuncture, radiation of infrared rays plus passive exercise on movement disorders of shoulder joint after operation of fracture of surgical neck of humerous. METHODS: Sixty cases were randomly divided into an acupuncture plus exercise group (n = 32) and an exercise therapy group (n = 28). The acupuncture plus exercise group were treated with electroacupuncture and infrared ray radiation at rigid soft tissue on the affected side, with adjuvant points, Xuehai (SP 10), Sanyinjiao (SP 6) and Yang-lingquan (GB 34) selected for acupuncture treatment and after the needles were withdrawn passive exercise of the shoulder joints were made. The exercise therapy group were treated by active exercise after passive exercise of shoulder joint. Therapeutic effects were observed after treatment for one month, and shoulder pain scores VAS and scores of activity of shoulder joint before and after treatment were observed. RESULTS: The total effective rate of 84.4% in the acupuncture plus exercise group was better than 64.3% in the exercise group. Before and after treatment, the VAS scores were 5.8 +/- 0.5 and 3.1 +/- 0.3 in the acupuncture plus exercise group, and 5.7 +/- 0.5, 4.3 +/- 0.4 in the exercise therapy group, respectively, with significant decreases after treatment in the two groups (both P < 0.001), the acupuncture plus exercise group being more significantly decreased than the exercise therapy group (P < 0.001). Before and after treatment, the total scores of activity of shoulder joint were 103.38 +/- 11.10 and 193.61 +/- 10.21 in the acupuncture plus exercise group, and 103.01 +/- 10.01 and 133.45 +/- 9.81 in the exercise therapy group, respectively, with significant increases after treatment in the two groups (both P < 0. 01), the acupuncture plus exercise group being better than the exercise therapy group (P < 0.001). CONCLUSION: Electroacupuncture, radiation of infrared rays plus passive exercise has obvious therapeutic effect on movement disorders of shoulder joint after operation of fracture of surgical neck of humerous.


Evid Based Complement Alternat Med. 2008 Sep 30. [Epub ahead of print]
The Influence of Acupressure at Extra 1 Acupuncture Point on the Spectral Entropy of the EEG and the LF/HF Ratio of Heart Rate Variability.Arai YC, Ushida T, Matsubara T, Shimo K, Ito H, Sato Y, Wakao Y, Komatsu T.
Multidisciplinary Pain Centre, Aichi Medical University, School of Medicine, 21 Karimata, Nagakutecho, Aichigun, Aichi, 480-1195, Japan. arainon@aichi-med-u.ac.jp.

Acupressure applied on the Extra 1 acupuncture point results in sedation, thereby reducing bispectral index (BIS) values. Mental status and hypnotic agents influence the autonomic nervous system. We hypothesized that acupressure at the Extra 1 point would induce sedation and change sympatho-parasympathetic nerve balance. We investigated the effect of acupressure at the Extra 1 point on the EEG spectral entropy values and heart rate variability (HRV). Forty-eight volunteers (24 males and 24 females) were randomly assigned to the control or Extra 1 group. The control group received acupressure at a sham point and the Extra 1 group received acupressure at the Extra 1 point. Acupressure was applied for 5 min. The record of the EEG spectral entropy values and HRV started 5 min before acupressure and stopped 5 min after acupressure. Acupressure significantly reduced the EEG spectral entropy values in both groups, but the values of the Extra 1 group were significantly smaller than those of the control group (P < 0.01). Acupressure significantly decreased the LF/HF ratio of HRV in both groups (P < 0.05). When divided upon gender, although acupressure tended to decrease the LF/HF ratio, the ratio significantly decreased during and after acupressure only in females of the Extra 1 group (P < 0.05). We concluded that acupressure on the Extra 1 point significantly reduced the EEG spectral entropy in both the genders, but affected the LF/HF ratio of HRV only in females.

 Klin Padiatr. 2008 Nov-Dec;220(6):365-70. Epub 2008 Oct 23.Links
Acupuncture to Alleviate Chemotherapy-induced Nausea and Vomiting in Pediatric Oncology - A Randomized Multicenter Crossover Pilot Trial.Gottschling S, Reindl TK, Meyer S, Berrang J, Henze G, Graeber S, Ong MF, Graf N.
1Department of Pediatric Hematology and Oncology, Saarland University, Homburg, Germany.

BACKGROUND: We investigated whether acupuncture as a supportive antiemetic approach reduces the need for antiemetic rescue medication during highly emetogenic chemotherapy in pediatric oncology. We report on a multicenter crossover study at 5 tertiary hospitals in Germany. PROCEDURE: Twenty-three children (13.6 y,+/- 2.9) receiving highly emetogenic chemotherapy for treatment of solid malignant tumors were included. Patients were randomly allocated to receive acupuncture treatment during either the second or third identical chemotherapy course together with standard antiemetic medication. The main outcome measure was the amount of additional antiemetic medication during chemotherapy. Secondary outcome measure was the number of episodes of vomiting per course. RESULTS: Fourty-six chemotherapy courses with or without acupuncture were compared. The need for rescue antiemetic medication was significantly lower in acupuncture courses compared to control courses (p=0.001) Episodes of vomiting per course were also significantly lower in courses with acupuncture (p=0.01). Except for pain from needling (4/23) no side effects occurred. Patients acceptance of acupuncture was high. CONCLUSIONS: Acupuncture as applied here seems to be effective in preventing nausea and vomiting in pediatric cancer patients.


There is a ton more research but i specifically selected diverse studies to show you that your simple theory is in fact, wrong.

[Necrosis]

No. I don't buy that. "high energy conduits"? I've seen no proof showing that sticking needles into the skin has any relation to any bio-field in humans or anything about "high energy conduits" or "electrical inputs".


Yes. Cutting yourself does provide the same effects of acupuncture, but stronger. This is why teenagers cut themselves, to get the release of endorphins. It creates a high for them.

you dont know anything about chinese medicine so its hard for you to conceptualize what im trying to say however, the accupunture meridians run along dense nervous tissue, areas of high ganglionic activity etc.. there is a correlation btween nervous tissue, organs etc and meridian points. Our bodies operate via electrical input/output voltage gated channels etc...

we are electrical beings, the initially depolarization or influx of NA into the neuron causes a spike in electrical activity from there many things can happen including calcium influx and exocytosis and pre synaptic release of neuropeptides. Needles are certain points could alter these physiological mechanisms and bring about change in the body. This is what im getting at, i also thing chi is bunk garbage.

[liberalismo]

Zhongguo Zhen Jiu. 2008 Oct;28(10):727-9.
[Observation on therapeutic effect of electroacupuncture on activity disturbance of the shoulder joint after operation of fracture][Article in Chinese]


Luo KM, Hou Z, Yang L.
Department of Rehabilitation Medicine, Tangshan City Second Hospital, Tangshan, Hebei 063000, China. tstslkm@163.com

OBJECTIVE: To observe clinical therapeutic effects of electroacupuncture, radiation of infrared rays plus passive exercise on movement disorders of shoulder joint after operation of fracture of surgical neck of humerous. METHODS: Sixty cases were randomly divided into an acupuncture plus exercise group (n = 32) and an exercise therapy group (n = 28). The acupuncture plus exercise group were treated with electroacupuncture and infrared ray radiation at rigid soft tissue on the affected side, with adjuvant points, Xuehai (SP 10), Sanyinjiao (SP 6) and Yang-lingquan (GB 34) selected for acupuncture treatment and after the needles were withdrawn passive exercise of the shoulder joints were made. The exercise therapy group were treated by active exercise after passive exercise of shoulder joint. Therapeutic effects were observed after treatment for one month, and shoulder pain scores VAS and scores of activity of shoulder joint before and after treatment were observed. RESULTS: The total effective rate of 84.4% in the acupuncture plus exercise group was better than 64.3% in the exercise group. Before and after treatment, the VAS scores were 5.8 +/- 0.5 and 3.1 +/- 0.3 in the acupuncture plus exercise group, and 5.7 +/- 0.5, 4.3 +/- 0.4 in the exercise therapy group, respectively, with significant decreases after treatment in the two groups (both P < 0.001), the acupuncture plus exercise group being more significantly decreased than the exercise therapy group (P < 0.001). Before and after treatment, the total scores of activity of shoulder joint were 103.38 +/- 11.10 and 193.61 +/- 10.21 in the acupuncture plus exercise group, and 103.01 +/- 10.01 and 133.45 +/- 9.81 in the exercise therapy group, respectively, with significant increases after treatment in the two groups (both P < 0. 01), the acupuncture plus exercise group being better than the exercise therapy group (P < 0.001). CONCLUSION: Electroacupuncture, radiation of infrared rays plus passive exercise has obvious therapeutic effect on movement disorders of shoulder joint after operation of fracture of surgical neck of humerous.


Evid Based Complement Alternat Med. 2008 Sep 30. [Epub ahead of print]
The Influence of Acupressure at Extra 1 Acupuncture Point on the Spectral Entropy of the EEG and the LF/HF Ratio of Heart Rate Variability.Arai YC, Ushida T, Matsubara T, Shimo K, Ito H, Sato Y, Wakao Y, Komatsu T.
Multidisciplinary Pain Centre, Aichi Medical University, School of Medicine, 21 Karimata, Nagakutecho, Aichigun, Aichi, 480-1195, Japan. arainon@aichi-med-u.ac.jp.

Acupressure applied on the Extra 1 acupuncture point results in sedation, thereby reducing bispectral index (BIS) values. Mental status and hypnotic agents influence the autonomic nervous system. We hypothesized that acupressure at the Extra 1 point would induce sedation and change sympatho-parasympathetic nerve balance. We investigated the effect of acupressure at the Extra 1 point on the EEG spectral entropy values and heart rate variability (HRV). Forty-eight volunteers (24 males and 24 females) were randomly assigned to the control or Extra 1 group. The control group received acupressure at a sham point and the Extra 1 group received acupressure at the Extra 1 point. Acupressure was applied for 5 min. The record of the EEG spectral entropy values and HRV started 5 min before acupressure and stopped 5 min after acupressure. Acupressure significantly reduced the EEG spectral entropy values in both groups, but the values of the Extra 1 group were significantly smaller than those of the control group (P < 0.01). Acupressure significantly decreased the LF/HF ratio of HRV in both groups (P < 0.05). When divided upon gender, although acupressure tended to decrease the LF/HF ratio, the ratio significantly decreased during and after acupressure only in females of the Extra 1 group (P < 0.05). We concluded that acupressure on the Extra 1 point significantly reduced the EEG spectral entropy in both the genders, but affected the LF/HF ratio of HRV only in females.

 Klin Padiatr. 2008 Nov-Dec;220(6):365-70. Epub 2008 Oct 23.Links
Acupuncture to Alleviate Chemotherapy-induced Nausea and Vomiting in Pediatric Oncology - A Randomized Multicenter Crossover Pilot Trial.Gottschling S, Reindl TK, Meyer S, Berrang J, Henze G, Graeber S, Ong MF, Graf N.
1Department of Pediatric Hematology and Oncology, Saarland University, Homburg, Germany.

BACKGROUND: We investigated whether acupuncture as a supportive antiemetic approach reduces the need for antiemetic rescue medication during highly emetogenic chemotherapy in pediatric oncology. We report on a multicenter crossover study at 5 tertiary hospitals in Germany. PROCEDURE: Twenty-three children (13.6 y,+/- 2.9) receiving highly emetogenic chemotherapy for treatment of solid malignant tumors were included. Patients were randomly allocated to receive acupuncture treatment during either the second or third identical chemotherapy course together with standard antiemetic medication. The main outcome measure was the amount of additional antiemetic medication during chemotherapy. Secondary outcome measure was the number of episodes of vomiting per course. RESULTS: Fourty-six chemotherapy courses with or without acupuncture were compared. The need for rescue antiemetic medication was significantly lower in acupuncture courses compared to control courses (p=0.001) Episodes of vomiting per course were also significantly lower in courses with acupuncture (p=0.01). Except for pain from needling (4/23) no side effects occurred. Patients acceptance of acupuncture was high. CONCLUSIONS: Acupuncture as applied here seems to be effective in preventing nausea and vomiting in pediatric cancer patients.


There is a ton more research but i specifically selected diverse studies to show you that your simple theory is in fact, wrong.

I never said that sticking needles into one's skin didn't relieve specific symptoms.

you dont know anything about chinese medicine so its hard for you to conceptualize what im trying to say however, the accupunture meridians run along dense nervous tissue, areas of high ganglionic activity etc.. there is a correlation btween nervous tissue, organs etc and meridian points. Our bodies operate via electrical input/output voltage gated channels etc...

we are electrical beings, the initially depolarization or influx of NA into the neuron causes a spike in electrical activity from there many things can happen including calcium influx and exocytosis and pre synaptic release of neuropeptides. Needles are certain points could alter these physiological mechanisms and bring about change in the body. This is what im getting at, i also thing chi is bunk garbage.

I know what you're saying and I'm saying that I don't buy it.  Electricity plays a small part in human physiology, but it is a stretch to say that humans are "electrical beings". I know it is an appealing thing to think but it just isn't so. Sticking needles into the SKIN relieves pain because of release of endorphins. The needles don't even go deep enough to affect much of anything.

[Necrosis]

I never said that sticking needles into one's skin didn't relieve specific symptoms.

I know what you're saying and I'm saying that I don't buy it.  Electricity plays a small part in human physiology, but it is a stretch to say that humans are "electrical beings". I know it is an appealing thing to think but it just isn't so. Sticking needles into the SKIN relieves pain because of release of endorphins. The needles don't even go deep enough to affect much of anything.

theres nothing for you to buy, the studies prove otherwise. Our nervous system is hugely electrica, the electrical effects the chemical, conductance is major in the lipid bilayers.

so how does applying pressure to accupunture points change physiology of the heart, induce sedation. How do needles provide antiemetic activity to strong nauseants?

your obviously wrong. Endorphin release in the Peri aquaductal gray would take a little while to occur while substance P ran wild, your explanation leaves alot to be desired. Dont buy it all you want just dont ignore evidence.

more research needs to be done.

[liberalismo]

theres nothing for you to buy, the studies prove otherwise. Our nervous system is hugely electrica, the electrical effects the chemical, conductance is major in the lipid bilayers.

so how does applying pressure to accupunture points change physiology of the heart, induce sedation. How do needles provide antiemetic activity to strong nauseants?

your obviously wrong. Endorphin release in the Peri aquaductal gray would take a little while to occur while substance P ran wild, your explanation leaves alot to be desired. Dont buy it all you want just dont ignore evidence.

more research needs to be done.

The brain is a powerful thing. If it perceives injury then it will release certain hormones and produce certain reactions that can do all of the things that you mention include relieve pain, nausea, induce sedation, etc. This is what happens when people get injured, their bodies start to take measures to reduce pain and fix the injury.

[Necrosis]

The brain is a powerful thing. If it perceives injury then it will release certain hormones and produce certain reactions that can do all of the things that you mention include relieve pain, nausea, induce sedation, etc. This is what happens when people get injured, their bodies start to take measures to reduce pain and fix the injury.

from simple needle stick? to chemotherapy?

what if certain points worked more then others?

clearly inserting needles "not deep enough to do anything" would not induce such cataclysmic changes in physiology, if you think so then any time you get touched and pushed on etc.. hugh neuroendocrinological changes would take place.

[liberalismo]

from simple needle stick? to chemotherapy?

what if certain points worked more then others?

clearly inserting needles "not deep enough to do anything" would not induce such cataclysmic changes in physiology, if you think so then any time you get touched and pushed on etc.. hugh neuroendocrinological changes would take place.

I would use the word "cataclysmic" to describe the physiological changes that occur. The changes are often too small to even be efficiently studied, and some people get absolutely no effects. The needles are only deep enough to trick the brain into doing certain things to relieve pain or help with perceived injury.

[Necrosis]

I would use the word "cataclysmic" to describe the physiological changes that occur. The changes are often too small to even be efficiently studied, and some people get absolutely no effects. The needles are only deep enough to trick the brain into doing certain things to relieve pain or help with perceived injury.

ok lets go with the trickery theory, still means its effective therapy, you claimed it didnt work.

[liberalismo]

ok lets go with the trickery theory, still means its effective therapy, you claimed it didnt work.

I said that acupuncture didn't work. Acupuncture is the whole thing about chi and energy flowing and what not. Simply sticking needles into one's skin isn't acupuncture, it's sticking needles into one's skin.

[Necrosis]

I said that acupuncture didn't work. Acupuncture is the whole thing about chi and energy flowing and what not. Simply sticking needles into one's skin isn't acupuncture, it's sticking needles into one's skin.

sticking needles into accupuncuture points like the studies did, for example Urinary Bladder 32 is accupuncture. Whatever mechanism they use to explain the action is irrelevant.

accupuncture is the use of needles at particular points to effect the being, if its chi doing the work or histamine or god that does not matter, that is another question. You said accupuncture was not effective, perhaps you should re phrase it to say, i dont beleive the mechanisms they propose.

[Eisenherz]

...to be fair to BuffGeek, for all practical purposes this is pretty much true.

But to be similarly fair to the scientific community, any serious consideration of any non-scientific hogwash is similarly frowned upon.

A scientist would be "discredited" (no accomplished scientist is ever seriously blacklisted) if he seriously proposed:
-telepathy
-ghosts
-an afterlife
-homeopathy
-Reiki or faith healing

..it's all bunkum... impossible, and only considered plausible by the misinformed.

In fact, even serious consideration of any religion is deemed delusional by hard science academics.


The Luke

Theres no question that homeopathy works. Its hard to show how right now but in the future science will.

[Oldschool Flip]

Theres no question that homeopathy works. Its hard to show how right now but in the future science will.

It works for "non threatening" life instances. I never seen it cure cancer, Crohn's disease, diabetes, etc. like so many of the wackos out there say. If that were true, then medical care would be much cheaper since homeopathic remedies are much, much cheaper than chemo, radiation therapy, etc.

[The Luke]

Theres no question that homeopathy works. Its hard to show how right now but in the future science will.

...no, there's no evidence that homeopathy works.

For every badly designed study that some whack-job uses to promote homeopathy there are dozens if not hundreds of well designed double-blind studies that show no effect whatsoever (beyond the placebo effect).


The Luke

[Deicide]

Nopes, has nothing to do with it. A pure scientist is not interested in reality and can say nothing about it.
If he does -> pseudo philosopher = Dawkins.

As if philosophers had answers....

[Eisenherz]

...no, there's no evidence that homeopathy works.

For every badly designed study that some whack-job uses to promote homeopathy there are dozens if not hundreds of well designed double-blind studies that show no effect whatsoever (beyond the placebo effect).


The Luke

Absolute bs, I didnt believe in it until I was electrocuted by a power line that I  grabbed onto which fried my feet so bad that the doctors in the hospital insisted they must amputate both my feet. I was willing to give anything a go to save them and a friend recommended I try some homeopathic medicine, which I then took, the pain vanished within hours and my feet started to heal so quickly my family took me home after just two days of being in hospital and I now have both my feet 10 years later.. Lol.."placebo" effect.
Been  taking homeopathic medicine ever since  and have not once had to see a GP...
No homeopathy isnt a be all end all medicine, but it sure does work, I recommend you try it yourself, the proof is in the pudding.

[Deicide]

Absolute bs, I didnt believe in it until I was electrocuted by a power line that I  grabbed onto which fried my feet so bad that the doctors in the hospital insisted they must amputate both my feet. I was willing to give anything a go to save them and a friend recommended I try some homeopathic medicine, which I then took, the pain vanished within hours and my feet started to heal so quickly my family took me home after just two days of being in hospital and I now have both my feet 10 years later.. Lol.."placebo" effect.
Been  taking homeopathic medicine ever since  and have not once had to see a GP...
No homeopathy isnt a be all end all medicine, but it sure does work, I recommend you try it yourself, the proof is in the pudding.

By what mechanism does homeopathy work?

[The Luke]

Absolute bs, I didnt believe in it until I was electrocuted by a power line that I  grabbed onto which fried my feet so bad that the doctors in the hospital insisted they must amputate both my feet. I was willing to give anything a go to save them and a friend recommended I try some homeopathic medicine, which I then took, the pain vanished within hours and my feet started to heal so quickly my family took me home after just two days of being in hospital and I now have both my feet 10 years later.. Lol.."placebo" effect.
Been  taking homeopathic medicine ever since  and have not once had to see a GP...
No homeopathy isnt a be all end all medicine, but it sure does work, I recommend you try it yourself, the proof is in the pudding.

Call the Amazing Randi... he'll give you a million dollars cash if you can prove this story. Should be easy with all those medical records.

Also, tell your doctor to submit your story to the Nobel Foundation for consideration for the Nobel Prize in Medicine ($1m+ prize money).


The Luke

[Eisenherz]

Yes would be great, but like you said its incredably hard to show evidence how/why homeopathy works othats why I said the only way you yourself will know for sure is if you try it..

I have a huge respect for MD's, and what not, and I truly think they only mean the best, and to help people, however I think they get brainwashed by the pharmaceutical companies which see homeopathic medicine as a threat to their sales..

[liberalismo]

Theres no question that homeopathy works. Its hard to show how right now but in the future science will.

Stick the needles anywhere in the skin and they will work.

[liberalismo]

Theres no question that homeopathy works. Its hard to show how right now but in the future science will.

Homeopathy can't work. The substances are so diluted that they aren't anything but wax or pure water. In most cases no molecule of the original substance remains in the "medicine" and it's just water or wax or whatever. Putting some cure into a huge thing of water and shaking it around, then removing all molecules of the cure leaves still nothing but water. Any benefit is purely placebo.

[liberalismo]

Absolute bs, I didnt believe in it until I was electrocuted by a power line that I  grabbed onto which fried my feet so bad that the doctors in the hospital insisted they must amputate both my feet. I was willing to give anything a go to save them and a friend recommended I try some homeopathic medicine, which I then took, the pain vanished within hours and my feet started to heal so quickly my family took me home after just two days of being in hospital and I now have both my feet 10 years later.. Lol.."placebo" effect.
Been  taking homeopathic medicine ever since  and have not once had to see a GP...
No homeopathy isnt a be all end all medicine, but it sure does work, I recommend you try it yourself, the proof is in the pudding.

That's either a coincidence, idiot doctor, or the placebo. Those are the only rational answers. Intelligent people don't take a single case and try to use it as justification for an entire field of medicine having validity.

[Eisenherz]

Homeopathy can't work. The substances are so diluted that they aren't anything but wax or pure water. In most cases no molecule of the original substance remains in the "medicine" and it's just water or wax or whatever. Putting some cure into a huge thing of water and shaking it around, then removing all molecules of the cure leaves still nothing but water. Any benefit is purely placebo.

Buddy its abviously more than "purely placebo" otherwise it would not help as many people as it does. Like i said earlier, in the future science will show how, its abit hard right now.