Looks like more moderation in store for religion.....

[Oldschool Flip]

Why can't you take responsibility for what you said before?  No, they don't agree on many issues, but you brought up the two issues they do agree on.  You were wrong.  They both oppose gay marriage and they both support stem cell research.  You did not say anything about civil unions or embryonic stem cells before.  You are changing your story now because I called you on it.  You are just arguing for the sake of argument and can't admit you were wrong.

I did admit it if you read loco. You read what you want to hear.

As for stem cell research, McCain does support Adult stem research

And come on loco Obama is for civil unions which is just "PC" for "gay marriage". Marriage is considered a "legal status" in the US.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/marriage
mar⋅riage
   /ˈmærɪdʒ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [mar-ij] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.    the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.
2.    the state, condition, or relationship of being married; wedlock: a happy marriage.
3.    the legal or religious ceremony that formalizes the decision of a man and woman to live as husband and wife, including the accompanying social festivities: to officiate at a marriage.
4.    a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other in the manner of a husband and wife, without legal sanction: trial marriage; homosexual marriage.
5.    any close or intimate association or union: the marriage of words and music in a hit song.
6.    a formal agreement between two companies or enterprises to combine operations, resources, etc., for mutual benefit; merger.

You're nit picking here. Do you think McCain is for civil unions (aka gay marriage) either? Here's what McCain said:

“So you’re for civil unions?” Stephanopoulos asked.

“No,” he said. “I do not believe gay marriage should be legal. I do not believe gay marriage should be legal,” he repeated. “But I do believe that people ought to be able to enter into contracts, exchange powers of attorney, other ways that people have relationships can enter into.”

Later, he came back: “I just want to point out again: I believe that gay marriage should not be legal. OK?”

http://www.azcongresswatch.com/?p=2575

So McCain's understanding of civil union's is gay marriage. Obama is for civil unions (aka gay marriage).

And I admit I misquoted on stem cell research. But for you to say that they're not opposite is going out on a limb of a very thin branch. Are you going to admit that? Or just stick to the 2 things they semi-agree on?

According to you and other atheists on the board, Obama is because he claims tan idiot, uneducated, nut case believe in God, claims to be a Christian and believes the Bible.  That's what you all have been saying all along.  Now, all of a sudden, Obama is okay because he isn't letting his Chrsitian faith affect his decisions.   

Show me where I said anything of what you stated above. I stated that Obama may be a Christian, but doesn't let his religious views hamper in what he believes is right for humanity.

[loco]

I did admit it if you read loco. You read what you want to hear. And come on loco Obama is for civil unions which is just "PC" for "gay marriage". Marriage is considered a "legal status" in the US.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/marriage
mar⋅riage
   /ˈmærɪdʒ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [mar-ij] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.    the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.
2.    the state, condition, or relationship of being married; wedlock: a happy marriage.
3.    the legal or religious ceremony that formalizes the decision of a man and woman to live as husband and wife, including the accompanying social festivities: to officiate at a marriage.
4.    a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other in the manner of a husband and wife, without legal sanction: trial marriage; homosexual marriage.
5.    any close or intimate association or union: the marriage of words and music in a hit song.
6.    a formal agreement between two companies or enterprises to combine operations, resources, etc., for mutual benefit; merger.

You're nit picking here. Do you think McCain is for civil unions (aka gay marriage) either? Here's what McCain said:

So McCain's understanding of civil union's is gay marriage. Obama is for civil unions (aka gay marriage).

And I admit I misquoted on stem cell research. But for you to say that they're not opposite is going out on a limb of a very thin branch. Are you going to admit that? Or just stick to the 2 things they semi-agree on?


Show me where I said anything of what you stated above. I stated that Obama may be a Christian, but doesn't let his religious views hamper in what he believes is right for humanity.

You are the one who brought up the two issues where they are not "opposite".

Are you kidding me?  This board is full of your anti-Christian rants.  It seems like a full time job for you.

[Oldschool Flip]

You are the one who brought up the two issues where they are not "opposite".

Are you kidding me?  This board is full of your anti-Christian rants.  It seems like a full time job for you.

So you're saying they agree on both issues fully? The way they view religion is part of how they make their policies. McCain doesn't want embryonic stem cell research because of a perceived child. Religion states that these "children" don't get to make a choice. Yet, it's okay to keep these "children" frozen until their ready to use against their will. Yeah that makes total sense. 

And you aren't willing to admit that civil unions are really just gay marriages. If it wasn't gay marriage, then the religious shouldn't have problem with civil unions since it doesn't delude the meaning of "marriage" according to you.

And though I'm anti religious, lol maybe the anti Christ in disguise, your accusations of what I said about Obama aren't true. Never called him an idiot, a nut case, etc.

The tide is turning. We now have an African American president where I thought it would take much longer. This shows America is more open-minded than before. And as time progresses, people are starting to see that religion is nothing more than just a common interest, then really worshiping a deity. It's pretty much that way now. Ask most children, teens and young adults where they would rather be? Playing outside, going to school, having fun and sex in college or FORCED to sitting in pews listening to a sermon? Obviously religion has less of an impact than 50 years ago since violent crime is more apt, people are having sex before marriage much more frequently, science is breaking barriers which what was thought to be "supernatural" powers of God only, etc. There will still be some who will live and breath by the Bible, but that's like any cult today with small followings.

[loco]

So you're saying they agree on both issues fully? The way they view religion is part of how they make their policies. McCain doesn't want embryonic stem cell research because of a perceived child. Religion states that these "children" don't get to make a choice. Yet, it's okay to keep these "children" frozen until their ready to use against their will. Yeah that makes total sense. 

And you aren't willing to admit that civil unions are really just gay marriages. If it wasn't gay marriage, then the religious shouldn't have problem with civil unions since it doesn't delude the meaning of "marriage" according to you.

And though I'm anti religious, lol maybe the anti Christ in disguise, your accusations of what I said about Obama aren't true. Never called him an idiot, a nut case, etc.

The tide is turning. We now have an African American president where I thought it would take much longer. This shows America is more open-minded than before. And as time progresses, people are starting to see that religion is nothing more than just a common interest, then really worshiping a deity. It's pretty much that way now. Ask most children, teens and young adults where they would rather be? Playing outside, going to school, having fun and sex in college or FORCED to sitting in pews listening to a sermon? Obviously religion has less of an impact than 50 years ago since violent crime is more apt, people are having sex before marriage much more frequently, science is breaking barriers which what was thought to be "supernatural" powers of God only, etc. There will still be some who will live and breath by the Bible, but that's like any cult today with small followings.

For the sake of this thread and this discussion, who cares about civil unions and how Christians or how McCain define them?  I watched the part of the debate where Obama said plain and clear that "marriage" is between a man and a woman only.  Where do you think Obama got this idea from?

[MCWAY]

At least Lord Obama's mother was an atheist...

Big Deal. So was Madalyn Murray O'Hair. Her son, William Murray, is a born-again Christian and a minister.

[Oldschool Flip]

For the sake of this thread and this discussion, who cares about civil unions and how Christians or how McCain define them?  I watched the part of the debate where Obama said plain and clear that "marriage" is between a man and a woman only.  Where do you think Obama got this idea from?

His strategist.

[Oldschool Flip]

Big Deal. So was Madalyn Murray O'Hair. Her son, William Murray, is a born-again Christian and a minister.

But he wasn't elected to the Presidency of the United States. Sounds like a big deal to me.

[loco]

His strategist.

So you are saying that he lied?

[Oldschool Flip]

So you are saying that he lied?

Well let's say he slyly used "PC" language. If it's just the case of the word "marriage" that you're concerned about, then you shouldn't have a problem with civil unions then right?

[loco]

Well let's say he slyly used "PC" language. If it's just the case of the word "marriage" that you're concerned about, then you shouldn't have a problem with civil unions then right?

So he lied to get elected.  How convenient for you for the sake of this discussion.  I quote him to prove you wrong and you say "he is strategist".   

It's impossible to debate you with that attitude.  Anyway, Arizona, Florida and...yes, California of all states just banned same sex marriage.  Arizona had rejected just such a constitutional amendment only two years ago.  That alone proves you wrong on at least one of two.  You have to make up your mind.  Either you are wrong about the title of this thread, or opposition to same sex marriage has nothing to do with religion.  You can't have it both ways.

[loco]

Rahm Emanuel (Hebrew: רם עמנואל) will be Barack Obama's chief of staff.

Rahm Emanuel's wife Amy Rule, a graduate of the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania converted to Judaism shortly before her wedding. They are members of Anshe Shalom, a modern Orthodox congregation.

Obama's Israeli adviser: Next White House chief of staff?
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3616306,00.html

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-19054588.html

Modern Orthodox Judaism (or Modern Orthodox or Modern Orthodoxy) is a movement within Orthodox Judaism that attempts to synthesize traditional observance and values with the secular, modern world. Modern Orthodoxy draws on several teachings and philosophies, and thus assumes various forms. In the United States, and generally in the Western world, "Centrist Orthodoxy" — underpinned by the philosophy of Torah Umadda ("Torah and Knowledge/Science) — is prevalent. In Israel, Modern Orthodoxy is dominated by Religious Zionism; however, although not identical, these movements share many of the same values and many of the same adherents.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0411/is_4_47/ai_54600118

[MCWAY]

But he wasn't elected to the Presidency of the United States. Sounds like a big deal to me.

The point is the mother’s religious beliefs (or lack thereof) DID NOT ultimately dictate that of the son, as is the case for both Murray and Obama.

So he lied to get elected.  How convenient for you for the sake of this discussion.  I quote him to prove you wrong and you say "he is strategist".   

It's impossible to debate you with that attitude.  Anyway, Arizona, Florida and...yes, California of all states just banned same sex marriage.  Arizona had rejected just such a constitutional amendment only two years ago.  That alone proves you wrong on at least one of two.  You have to make up your mind.  Either you are wrong about the title of this thread, or opposition to same sex marriage has nothing to do with religion.  You can't have it both ways.

I don't think Obama lied to get elected. It's the same ploy I've seen other non-believers who like certain political candidates but struggle with the profession of faith by those candidates . So, they claim that either Obama is a closet atheist and/or he's simply lying (which apparently is fine, if the deception involves the Christian faith) to get elected, because <<sob, sniff>> "nobody will elect an atheist". Of course, what some don't consider is that maybe HOSTILITY towards faith and religion (rather than simply a lack of belief in such) is the reason why people tend not to pick atheists as political leaders in the USA.

[Oldschool Flip]

So he lied to get elected.  How convenient for you for the sake of this discussion.  I quote him to prove you wrong and you say "he is strategist".   

It's impossible to debate you with that attitude.  Anyway, Arizona, Florida and...yes, California of all states just banned same sex marriage.  Arizona had rejected just such a constitutional amendment only two years ago.  That alone proves you wrong on at least one of two.  You have to make up your mind.  Either you are wrong about the title of this thread, or opposition to same sex marriage has nothing to do with religion.  You can't have it both ways.

Dude you're going to believe that politicians tell people the truth or what they want to hear? And by the way I didn't say "he's a strategist" I said "his strategist". These people HAVE other write up their itineraries.
And so same sex marriage was shot down, but I'm more that confident that civil unions will be allowed within his term. Just like back in the 60's and 70's when inter racial marriage was looked down upon, people will ease up and accept. Patience is a virtue.

[Oldschool Flip]

The point is the mother’s religious beliefs (or lack thereof) DID NOT ultimately dictate that of the son, as is the case for both Murray and Obama.

This happens all the time. Most atheists were raised in religion.

I don't think Obama lied to get elected. It's the same ploy I've seen other non-believers who like certain political candidates but struggle with the profession of faith by those candidates . So, they claim that either Obama is a closet atheist and/or he's simply lying (which apparently is fine, if the deception involves the Christian faith) to get elected, because <<sob, sniff>> "nobody will elect an atheist". Of course, what some don't consider is that maybe HOSTILITY towards faith and religion (rather than simply a lack of belief in such) is the reason why people tend not to pick atheists as political leaders in the USA.

So then explain why Obama the Christian is for embryonic stem cell research, civil unions, and abortion. I'll just start with those. How many Christians are for those? Epic denial.

[Necrosis]

This happens all the time. Most atheists were raised in religion.
So then explain why Obama the Christian is for embryonic stem cell research, civil unions, and abortion. I'll just start with those. How many Christians are for those? Epic denial.

the first argument completely obliterates mcways.. far more people are brought up in a religious setting a switch then the opposite.

[MCWAY]

This happens all the time. Most atheists were raised in religion.

I know that. Didn't I just state that the mother's belief (or lack thereof) doesn't ultimately dictate the faith of the child? Yet, you have, perhaps, THE MOST VEHEMENT ATHEIST in American history, ending up with a son, who is a minister. And there are plenty of others, who did NOT grow in religious households, that became Christians as adults.

So then explain why Obama the Christian is for embryonic stem cell research, civil unions, and abortion. I'll just start with those. How many Christians are for those? Epic denial.

From the people with whom I've interacted, a lot more than you think. I don't agree with them, but that's not the point. It appears you just stated that you can't be a Christian if you support those things.

Plus, notwithstanding your lack of support for your earlier claim, you didn't address the issue of why you seem to think that lying is fine for a political candidate, as long as such relates to his supposedly lying about his Christian faith to be elected.

When people claimed that Obama was Muslim (even though he made it clear that he is not), Obama supporters were angered by it. And, they'd be just as angry with you, claiming that he's not a Christian or that he's lying. But, then again, you are an Obama supporter, which is fine. But, it appears you're trying to solve the philosophical dilemna, because you like the guy, who says he's a man of faith.

[loco]

This happens all the time. Most atheists were raised in religion.
So then explain why Obama the Christian is for embryonic stem cell research, civil unions, and abortion. I'll just start with those. How many Christians are for those? Epic denial.

Explain what?  There are other Christians who support embryonic stem cell research, civil unions, and abortion.  So what?  They are still Christians.

[Oldschool Flip]

From the people with whom I've interacted, a lot more than you think. I don't agree with them, but that's not the point. It appears you just stated that you can't be a Christian if you support those things.

Then that's a double standard. If it's not allowed, then why are they making the decision? Unless of course they are just "Christians" in label only.

Plus, notwithstanding your lack of support for your earlier claim, you didn't address the issue of why you seem to think that lying is fine for a political candidate, as long as such relates to his supposedly lying about his Christian faith to be elected.

It's obvious you take the word of politicians. How about this. I was born a Catholic, so am considered Catholic, but don't follow it. I would bet dollars to donuts that thousands upon thousands of "Christians" that can make that claim.

When people claimed that Obama was Muslim (even though he made it clear that he is not), Obama supporters were angered by it. And, they'd be just as angry with you, claiming that he's not a Christian or that he's lying. But, then again, you are an Obama supporter, which is fine. But, it appears you're trying to solve the philosophical dilemna, because you like the guy, who says he's a man of faith.

They can be mad too, but fact is a Christian whom actually follows the religion WOULDN'T allow those agendas. There's NO ARGUMENT on that. If they do then how can they be a real Christian?

[Oldschool Flip]

Explain what?  There are other Christians who support embryonic stem cell research, civil unions, and abortion.  So what?  They are still Christians.

In label loco. It's forbidden by YOUR CHRISTIAN BIBLE. So are you telling me that it's okay to do this and still be called a Christian? Double standard like I said.

[loco]

In label loco. It's forbidden by YOUR CHRISTIAN BIBLE. So are you telling me that it's okay to do this and still be called a Christian? Double standard like I said.

Show me where in "YOUR CHRISTIAN BIBLE" it says that if a person supports embryonic stem cell research, civil unions, and abortion he/she is not a Christian?

Let me guess, is it next to the part where it says that Christians are not allowed to be happy?   

I thought opposition to same sex marriage had more to do with a social, personal conviction than it had to do with the Bible.  I mean, are you telling me that there are that many Bible believing Christians in California, Arizona and Florida?  Daaaang! 

[Deicide]

Show me where in "YOUR CHRISTIAN BIBLE" it says that if a person supports embryonic stem cell research, civil unions, and abortion he/she is not a Christian?

Let me guess, is it next to the part where it says that Christians are not allowed to be happy?   

I thought opposition to same sex marriage had more to do with a social, personal conviction than it had to do with the Bible.  I mean, are you telling me that there are that many Bible believing Christians in California, Arizona and Florida?  Daaaang! 

Didn't you know? God hates fags...

[Oldschool Flip]

Show me where in "YOUR CHRISTIAN BIBLE" it says that if a person supports embryonic stem cell research, civil unions, and abortion he/she is not a Christian?

Let me guess, is it next to the part where it says that Christians are not allowed to be happy?   

Need to watch what you post now loco. You are saying at this point that Christians can support this and still be Christians. What is a Christian then?

Chris⋅tian
   /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kris-chuhn] Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1.    of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
2.    of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
3.    of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.
4.    exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.
5.    decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.
6.    human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian.
–noun
7.    a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
8.    a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
9.    a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.
10.    the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.
11.    a male given name.

According to these definitions Christians aren't allowed to accept the above proposals of Obama.

Civil unions and homosexuality- Corinthians 6:9-11 and Timothy 1:10

embryonic stem cells and abortion- Exo 20:13; Deut 5:17, Gen. 9:5-6, Luke 1:8-44, Job 31:13-15; Psa 51:5; 139:13-16; Matt 1:20.

Again from YOUR CHRISTIAN BIBLE. Not that I believe it, but it's been preached that the proposals are against the will of God, Jesus and his teachings. So according to these: Gal. 1:9, and 2 Pet. 2:1-3; 3:16.
How can Christians that disobey God's word intentionally without remorse (with by supporting those proposals would be) be a Christian in God's eyes?
 

I thought opposition to same sex marriage had more to do with a social, personal conviction than it had to do with the Bible.  I mean, are you telling me that there are that many Bible believing Christians in California, Arizona and Florida?  Daaaang! 

My mom and dad love my older brother. He is a homosexual. They are also devout Catholics that voted for Prop 8 as well as ALL of the rest of my family members (except the homosexual ones, which number about 5) because of religious belief and not homophobia. But the further you move away from the coastline the more "religious" it gets in CA. Yet the majority of people live on the coast. And though many are accepting of homosexuality (especially since gay bashing is really unacceptable in any workplace or public forum) there are those whom are religious that still will hold true to the word "marriage" as between man and woman because of religious beliefs. But wait till it's propped as "Civil Union" and I bet it passes.
http://www.kcra.com/california-proposition-8/index.html

[loco]

Need to watch what you post now loco. You are saying at this point that Christians can support this and still be Christians. What is a Christian then?

Chris⋅tian
   /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kris-chuhn] Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1.    of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
2.    of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
3.    of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.
4.    exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.
5.    decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.
6.    human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian.
–noun
7.    a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
8.    a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
9.    a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.
10.    the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.
11.    a male given name.

According to these definitions Christians aren't allowed to accept the above proposals of Obama.

Civil unions and homosexuality- Corinthians 6:9-11 and Timothy 1:10

embryonic stem cells and abortion- Exo 20:13; Deut 5:17, Gen. 9:5-6, Luke 1:8-44, Job 31:13-15; Psa 51:5; 139:13-16; Matt 1:20.

Again from YOUR CHRISTIAN BIBLE. Not that I believe it, but it's been preached that the proposals are against the will of God, Jesus and his teachings. So according to these: Gal. 1:9, and 2 Pet. 2:1-3; 3:16.
How can Christians that disobey God's word intentionally without remorse (with by supporting those proposals would be) be a Christian in God's eyes?
 

My mom and dad love my older brother. He is a homosexual. They are also devout Catholics that voted for Prop 8 as well as ALL of the rest of my family members (except the homosexual ones, which number about 5) because of religious belief and not homophobia. But the further you move away from the coastline the more "religious" it gets in CA. Yet the majority of people live on the coast. And though many are accepting of homosexuality (especially since gay bashing is really unacceptable in any workplace or public forum) there are those whom are religious that still will hold true to the word "marriage" as between man and woman because of religious beliefs. But wait till it's propped as "Civil Union" and I bet it passes.
http://www.kcra.com/california-proposition-8/index.html

Wait just one minute.  I have asked you to show me where in "YOUR CHRISTIAN BIBLE" it says that if a person supports embryonic stem cell research, civil unions, and abortion he/she is not a Christian, and you quote the dictionary?

Then you google a bunch of Bible verses that you probably did not even read?

In label loco. It's forbidden by YOUR CHRISTIAN BIBLE. So are you telling me that it's okay to do this and still be called a Christian? Double standard like I said.

I am going to ask you one more time.  Please show me where in the "CHRISTIAN BIBLE" it says that if a person supports embryonic stem cell research, civil unions, and abortion he/she is not a Christian.

[Deicide]

Wait just one minute.  I have asked you to show me where in "YOUR CHRISTIAN BIBLE" it says that if a person supports embryonic stem cell research, civil unions, and abortion he/she is not a Christian, and you quote the dictionary?

Then you google a bunch of Bible verses that you probably did not even read?

I am going to ask you one more time.  Please show me where in the "CHRISTIAN BIBLE" it says that if a person supports embryonic stem cell research, civil unions, and abortion he/she is not a Christian.

Does Jebus like big jugs Loco?

[Oldschool Flip]

Wait just one minute.  I have asked you to show me where in "YOUR CHRISTIAN BIBLE" it says that if a person supports embryonic stem cell research, civil unions, and abortion he/she is not a Christian, and you quote the dictionary?

Then you must have a better definition. Why not give it?

Then you google a bunch of Bible verses that you probably did not even read?

Which cover what I said. You go back and read them and refute if they are wrong. Of course if they are, then it's a translation problem from Hebrew (which covers my basis on the Hebrew translation thread). Lol, I can't lose.

I am going to ask you one more time.  Please show me where in the "CHRISTIAN BIBLE" it says that if a person supports embryonic stem cell research, civil unions, and abortion he/she is not a Christian.

Guess you were so annoyed you missed it. Gal. 1:9, and 2 Pet. 2:1-3; 3:16.