Does martial arts training provide an advantage in a street fight?

[gracie bjj]

Ask those guys about John Petrone.  They'll know him. 

ill ask my boy matt later when i speak to him,no disrespect but ive never heard of him,then again ive mostly did all my security work in newark new jersey clubs.im sure hes a badass if them guys know him.my wife made me stop the security work once we had our son,hes 2 and a half now.it was cool most of the time,ive always tried to defuse fights before they happened.the standing rear naked choke was my favorite thing to use cause no one got hurt.my problem was i used to do alittle yeyo in the bathroom every half hour or so just to keep me awake and alert,i never brought it with me but once you get to know people they start handed you folded up dollar bills with the powder inside and it was hard to turn down.it just seemed liked 85 % of the guys at renzos worked security at night,it was the perfect job to train your mma/bjj cause you could sleep till 2 or 3 pm then go train acouple hours,go home take a shower get dressed and off to work.alot of guys used to get there around 7pm or so and train till 930pm and take their shower at the gym and just drive afew blocks to the club to work,it was ver conveniant.since i lived in jersey i did that quite often,it didnt make sense taking the train to msg then walk to renzos,train and go back to jersey on the train again only to come back to the city again afew hours later to work.

[MuscleMcMannus]

ill ask my boy matt later when i speak to him,no disrespect but ive never heard of him,then again ive mostly did all my security work in newark new jersey clubs.im sure hes a badass if them guys know him.my wife made me stop the security work once we had our son,hes 2 and a half now.it was cool most of the time,ive always tried to defuse fights before they happened.the standing rear naked choke was my favorite thing to use cause no one got hurt.my problem was i used to do alittle yeyo in the bathroom every half hour or so just to keep me awake and alert,i never brought it with me but once you get to know people they start handed you folded up dollar bills with the powder inside and it was hard to turn down.it just seemed liked 85 % of the guys at renzos worked security at night,it was the perfect job to train your mma/bjj cause you could sleep till 2 or 3 pm then go train acouple hours,go home take a shower get dressed and off to work.alot of guys used to get there around 7pm or so and train till 930pm and take their shower at the gym and just drive afew blocks to the club to work,it was ver conveniant.since i lived in jersey i did that quite often,it didnt make sense taking the train to msg then walk to renzos,train and go back to jersey on the train again only to come back to the city again afew hours later to work.

Petrone bounced in NYC at some major clubs.  He trained under David James in VAJ based out of Brooklyn.  He played amateur hockey and was banned for life for fighting.  He had some stories of bouncing in NYC clubs that's for sure.  I can't remember what club he bounced at but there was one bouncer that worked for the Italian mob, another fellow bouncer that was a Golden gloves boxer. 

[gracie bjj]

Petrone bounced in NYC at some major clubs.  He trained under David James in VAJ based out of Brooklyn.  He played amateur hockey and was banned for life for fighting.  He had some stories of bouncing in NYC clubs that's for sure.  I can't remember what club he bounced at but there was one bouncer that worked for the Italian mob, another fellow bouncer that was a Golden gloves boxer. 

i heard about david james,hes a baddass from what people tell me.and his students are tough cats also.my buddy trains in brooklyn sometimes with some tough ass russion dudes,igor zinovia the ufc fighter teaches and trains there,they do alot of judo,sambo,thai and boxing.my boy said these guys aint no joke either,they carry 9,s in their gym bags and work security around the nyc area.most bouncers ive met while i was working together with them where cool ass dudes,we watched eachothers backs and we where like family cause we depended on eachother bigtime.thanks for the info musclemcmannus,im alway interested in hearing about the nyc security scene,deepdown i miss it alittle

[Thin Lizzy]

thin lizzy,since your a renzo guy i know you know the crew that works security in nyc,big rob constance,carlos cline,big bryan vytell,matt soares,i worked in central in queens for awhile with big bryan,matt soares and mike.have you ever worked in central on steinway st in queens before in your jobs?i remember working one night with rolles gracie jr,i rolled with him at renzo,s acouple times and he toyed with me like i was a 2 year old child,lol.i liked working with fish when i was there,hes a great teacher imo.also john danaher is beyond awesome,i used to learn from john in the morning classes when he taught.i know alot of people never heard of this guy daneher but hes a true master of the arts,hes a renzo blackbelt as well as a nasty thia fighter

Yeah, I know those guys, but, I'm much older than them. We're talking 15 years ago when I did some security. Danaher is amazing as you said. If you can believe it, I knew him when he was a white belt. We were actually competitive at one time, then he started spending ten hours a day at Renzo's and now he's one of the most technical bjj guys in the world. GSP used to take privates with him. He also wrote this book. Renzo and Royler demonstrated the moves but the writing is all John.

[gracie bjj]

im alot older then most of them myself thin lizzy,but the security job helped pay some bills afew years back,i remember georges coming down afew weeks before his first fight with bj,i couldnt believe how easily danaher handled st pierre in bjj.im not saying he could beat georges in mma but in bjj,daneher is a master.he used to let georges start off by taking his back,lol,and 1 minute later have georges back.lol.no disrespect to st pierre as he is a awesome mma fighter,imo one of the best in the world.but daneher is just a different animal.if you guys go back and look at the cornerman in gsp,s corner with brownish hair,irish looking guy,thats danaher.he used to be a bodybuilder in his younger days but slimmed down alot now

[slacker]

I BEAT ON RETARDS

[zimanu]

I have the following hypothesis:

A trained martial artist has no advantage over any other athlete in a barehanded street fight, provided the two have identical strength and weight. The third factor is speed, its limit is genetically determined and, speaking from experience, can be quickly reached by systematic athletic training to the highest level of ones athletic potential. Hence, to make this hypothesis more precise, we should assume that the martial artist and the other athlete are identical twins trained to the highest level of their athletic potential. The overall athletic potential is genetically determined and hence would be identical for identical twins.

Martial arts techniques, by and large, are too weak because they use isolated muscle groups (e.g. straight punch in karate), too slow because they involve accelerating a large mass through a large distance with muscles to weak for that purpose (e.g. round house kick), it is too easy to see them coming because the starting position is many moves away from the final position when the actual strike occurs, just plain useless in a street fight (e.g. ground fighting and submission techniques of UFC -- it is much easier and more effective to kick or stomp a downed opponent), or way too restrictive (e.g. in addition to the last example, striking the back of the head, neck, back, or kidneys is not allowed in any martial arts competitions). Also, a trained martial artist, in virtue of his training, will tend to stick to the techniques he constantly practices, and will show little flexibility/inventiveness in a street fight, compared to a non martial artist. This is an example of simple psychological conditioning.
 
The corollary of the above hypothesis, provided the hypothesis is correct, would be that in order to increase ones chances in a street fight, one should focus on developing ones strength and weight. Ones top speed will quickly come along from training. This can also be illustrated by the example of two identical twins. Suppose one took up martial arts and the other bodybuilding/strength training. Both systematically trained to the limit of their athletic potential for several years. It would seem that the one that took up bodybuilding would end up with superior strength and weight and the same if not superior speed (speed may be dependent on the power of muscular contractions) and hence would easily defeat his twin in a barehanded street fight. 

It's a great thinking, the twin argument is often used in anthropology and I can see that your reflexion is thought out.

There is a couple of things I do think you're not considering. It could be called the passage from instinct to reason to intuition.

There's an old proverb in Asia that was used by Jet Lee that said that at first, the tree is only a tree, and then there is the idea of a tree and finally, the tree is only a tree. What this teaching leaves out is that when the tree becomes the tree again, some knowledge of the tree can be accessed at will.

To me it is the same with the trained mma, or any other style for that matter.

Let's put aside technique for a moment, the trained mma will be able to be more rationnal in front of the fight. This could have two effects, first, he wouldn't be overcome with fear and will be able to think while the other non trained person will go like a beserk and this brings us to the second hypothesis, that the beserk wouldn't waste time thinking and would relly entirely on his instinct, being able to show super human strength (like the famous case of a woman lifting a car to save her children (she still has not been able to do it again! and incerdible instinct (like all animals, we have some natural knowledge of how to fights and the more the person in the state of beserk let's go, the more instinctual his or her moves will be).

So not only does it depends on how the trained fighter reacts, but also on how the untrained one reacts.

Now let's talk about techniques. It could be argued that an mma artist would be more likely to aim at non lethal points in the body, since it's a part of his whole training, trying to avoid the weakest points in a body and that an untrained person might not be as conditioned to avoid those spots, making it a more lethal instincually oriented person. But of course, if the trained martial artists is able to stay rational and inuitive (which is above instinct, clearly, in it's ability to not only let go but be more aware of what the other will do), then he will be able to use all his training on punching, wight transfer, whatever, to kill the untrained person with one lethal blow.

So my opinion is basically relative to how the untrained and trained fighter is able to go from instint to reason to intuition. A highly untrained person with highly intuitive skills could beat a dump strong highly trained guy, but a strong rational fighter could beat a somewhat intuitive untrained person.

I think you bring a great hypothesis especially regarding speed but the greatest strength of any fights is in the mind. Of course, someone who can't move will die but someone who can see your moves coming, as if reading your every thoughts, impulsions, like an old wise mythical master, will never loose.

[gracie bjj]

the point you made about the women lifting her car over the tracks to save her kids was good but,she was only able to do that through a surge of adrenaline.adrenaline is like nitris to a car,it gives your car super juiced fuel only for a short burst.the downside is once the adrenal glands are exhausted your pretty much through,ofcoarse for a 3 minute period the untrained person who has an adrenaline rush in a fight with a trained mma fighter could be a slight threat but,its controlled rage that wins fights imo.mma fighters have mastered controlling thier adrenaline so they dont gas quickly and get beat down,even in streetfights guys who go nuts usually gas out in acouple minutes,thats not good if the other guy is still standing and is not even slightly exhausted.anything can happen in a fight so it all depends on who,s fighting who and who has more skill,experiance,heart ect.i really like those asian proverbs,they are deep

[MuscleMcMannus]

the point you made about the women lifting her car over the tracks to save her kids was good but,she was only able to do that through a surge of adrenaline.adrenaline is like nitris to a car,it gives your car super juiced fuel only for a short burst.the downside is once the adrenal glands are exhausted your pretty much through,ofcoarse for a 3 minute period the untrained person who has an adrenaline rush in a fight with a trained mma fighter could be a slight threat but,its controlled rage that wins fights imo.mma fighters have mastered controlling thier adrenaline so they dont gas quickly and get beat down,even in streetfights guys who go nuts usually gas out in acouple minutes,thats not good if the other guy is still standing and is not even slightly exhausted.anything can happen in a fight so it all depends on who,s fighting who and who has more skill,experiance,heart ect.i really like those asian proverbs,they are deep

This is very true.  I had a buddy that used to bounce.  He would be so fucking tired at the end of a night due to his adrenaline rushes.  It was exhausting.  He would man handle the patrons.  Once he learned a good bit of techniques i.e. chokes, locks etc.  It made a huge difference.  Instead of manhandling some dude out of the bar he'd put them in a fucking wrist lock and walk em out. 

[gracie bjj]

very true mcmannus,controlled rage i call it is only learned by experiance imo.

[SinCitysmallGUY]

Does having a gun in a knife fight give you an advantage? This is the answer to your question. of course it helps. Most people have never been in a fight, nor know how to properly throw a punch or defend a takedown or perform one. Most people also have never been hit.. so with that being said knowing how to throw punches kicks, and perform moves (take down, side step, foot work period) have an advantage. at least in my opinion

[zimanu]

the point you made about the women lifting her car over the tracks to save her kids was good but,she was only able to do that through a surge of adrenaline.adrenaline is like nitris to a car,it gives your car super juiced fuel only for a short burst.the downside is once the adrenal glands are exhausted your pretty much through,ofcoarse for a 3 minute period the untrained person who has an adrenaline rush in a fight with a trained mma fighter could be a slight threat but,its controlled rage that wins fights imo.mma fighters have mastered controlling thier adrenaline so they dont gas quickly and get beat down,even in streetfights guys who go nuts usually gas out in acouple minutes,thats not good if the other guy is still standing and is not even slightly exhausted.anything can happen in a fight so it all depends on who,s fighting who and who has more skill,experiance,heart ect.i really like those asian proverbs,they are deep

your welome about the proverbs!

the punch is just a punch, but then comes the idea of the punch and finally, the punch simply becomes a punch...

I agree with you, adrenaline could have a kind of lucky once in a while advantage, but rationality and technique (if we forget strength and speed for now) will usually make someone win!

cheers!

[gracie bjj]

its kinda like asking if a pro football player would farewell in a game of tackle with his out of shape buddies on sunday morning in the park,i think he would hold his own imo.his buddies would prolly come on strong for a quarter and then be gassed,the pro player will prolly just be getting warmed up never mind tired after the games over

[americanbulldog]

Can't compare most martial artists to mixed martial artists.  Mixed Martial Artists compete with one another in a competition, and as such, are TRAINED, PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES.  A lot of martial artists are NOT ATHLETIC in any way shape or form.  Strength and conditioning, plus technique, plus the ability to remain calm in any range of combat (from hard sparring against live and resisting opponents) hones one's ability to control the adrenal glands and makes them better prepared for combat. 

^^^Good analogy graciebjj. 

[James Phoenix]

I've been doing traditional martial arts for years before i ever started competeing in MMA. I got into plenty of street fights, and I never lost. Most of my life all i knew was Jujitsu (japanese style not brazilian) and Karate...I seemed to do great, only ever got a bloody lip once and a chipped tooth out of about a dozen fights, including a couple against 2-3 guys.

Same here.

I practice Shotokan Karate and BJJ.
I've been in numerous fights, and I've won all except maybe one or two fights.
In each case the person I fought greatly outweighed me (I probably weighed 135 in most fights).
(Big guys never seem to want to fight someone their own size).

I defeated a mugger carrying a weapon with just Shotokan Karate - and I even kept his weapon.

I've always gone to schools that do a lot of live sparring though, and also I'm conditioned from my dad beating the shit out of me as a child.

[zimanu]

to the testimony aspect of this thread, I'll go towards a taboo

I've never fight since I trained yet I was always fighting when I was a kid and never lost except the time where I was 12 and 7 guys from 15 to 7 years old came on me (I didn't even tried to answer, I let myself got beaten and quickly let myself fell on the ground until they thought I was a pussy and wasn't worth there waste of time (yeah, I know, you don't need to remind me how stuppid they were

I'm now 6'3" and 250 pounds and so you can guess that not only I don't want to get into fights because it'd be too easy for me to kill most of the people, but (and that's what gave me the desire to write this, since the comment above mentions big guys) you have to understand that at my size, I have nothing to proove, people respect me naturally and I do am good with words (english isn't my first language btw) and I tend, if I get angry, to shut the other guy's mouth before needing to hit...

both my grandfathers did the 2nd world war from Canada (and so before the US saviors got there to helped them) and were both above 6 feets (not sure the exact size but at that time, it was rare to have a 6 feet guy)

but the fights I had when I was a kid, altough I had facility in sports due to genetics predispositions, and which are still totally vivid in my mind, were way to interesting to simply be genetically bonified... so I'll now bring the taboo, which I didn't bring before but you know, altough I'm sometimes shy about talking about this, my experience is that warriors are the one most open to this idea: I ended rememebering being an asia martial expert in a previous life... I can't remember my exact nationality, my memories do indicate an asian body and a very good technique and meditative predisposition... when I was able to beat another kid so easily and so spectacularly, it was because of a training... from a previous life...

let me just finish with the fact that, like the Hindous do, I believe there are many types of individuals... lineage, karma if you will... I'm a warrior, have always been in whatever I do, be it art or cooking, my intuitive meditative style is colored with this special will (FYI, other lineages are intellectuals (including religiously oriented people) and merchants (including people who like to do manual things))

warriors are becoming obsolete, they need to learn new skills lol
but they'll always win against the other lineages, even if untrained... it's in there nature! and that's my opinion on that...

[James Phoenix]

warriors are becoming obsolete, they need to learn new skills lol
but they'll always win against the other lineages, even if untrained... it's in there nature! and that's my opinion on that...

I agree.

A natural fighter will always beat someone that doesn't have that inclination - trained or not.

The character of the man is more important - training just amplifies it.

[zimanu]

I agree.

A natural fighter will always beat someone that doesn't have that inclination - trained or not.

The character of the man is more important - training just amplifies it.

exactly my point!

[True Scientist]

You need to go back and study basic physics.  Your entire premise rests on strength and weight.  Pudzianowski in your opinion could beat someones ass half his size due to his size and strength? He could have his ass handed to him by someone half his size with 100x the speed and skill. 

Very true. In physics the strength of the impact is measured by what is called momentum. Momentum is calculated by multiplying the mass (i.e. weight) of an object by its velocity (i.e. speed). Thus if Pudzianowski weighs 100 kgs and moves at the speed of 10 m/s, his momentum is 1000 kgs x m/s. On the other hand, someone half his size (50 kgs) and 100x the speed (1000 m/s = supersonic airplane - the speed of sound is 340 m/s; best bullets reach may be 500m/s), would have a momentum of 50,000 kgs x m/s. Thus, Pudzianowski's imaginary opponent would strike him with a force 50 times greater than Pudzianowski can ever manage. So of course Pudzianowski would loose. In fact if one considers his opponent's fist moving at 1000 m/s and striking his skull with two major knuckles (a very small contact area), the fist would definitely go through his skull and kill him instantly (just like a bullet). However if his opponent is a human, his fist together with the attached forearm would be crushed to pulp from the impact. Thus the only being capable of moving at such speed and not injuring himself, would be the great comic book hero - Superman. I would guess that an Olympic champion is no more than 2-3 times faster than the worst sports enthusiast. And most of us are more or less the same in terms of speed. So greater strength and weight would win.

P.S. You pretended to respond to the second paragraph of my original post, but in reality your response was to the first and third paragraphs. I don't understand the purpose of this stunt.

[zimanu]

The character of the man is more important - training just amplifies it.

I think Fedor is a perfect example of how character, and intelligence, is the key factor!

[James Phoenix]

I think Fedor is a perfect example of how character, and intelligence, is the key factor!

He defeats all fighters, of all size and skill level, and maintains a perfect sense of calm while doing it.
If he didn't have that 'divine sense of knowing' he couldn't analyse the situation, and devise a plan. That's his warrior-spirit.
He seems to be gifted with natural reflexes, but otherwise he certainly isn't exceptional physique-wise.

[zimanu]

He defeats all fighters, of all size and skill level, and maintains a perfect sense of calm while doing it.
If he didn't have that 'divine sense of knowing' he couldn't analyse the situation, and devise a plan. That's his warrior-spirit.
He seems to be gifted with natural reflexes, but otherwise he certainly isn't exceptional physique-wise.

Exactly, I saw a documentary on the history of Pride recently and I don't remember who said he wasn't an american fighter, not in the sense that he was russian, but that he didn't had the looks (like the american muscle cars who are strong and look strong).

I hope I'm not out of line by bringing this Fedor factor to this thread, but to me it's part of the answer I previously proposed, that in fact it's all about the mind. And with Fedor we have the complete set of skill... This last knockout he did yesterday was right after being punched hard with a knee... he could still see the hole altough he obviously was hurt (and it's also interesting, when we consider the importance to be like water in martial art, to note that he really kind of bounce back from the knee to put more power behind his punch... this guy probably kinda sees in slow motion (I experienced it in fights, I'm SURE he can!

[James Phoenix]

this guy probably kinda sees in slow motion (I experienced it in fights, I'm SURE he can!

I know what you're talking about, and I definitely think Fedor possess that attribute.

I'll tell you my basic thought on it, without going into elaborate detail. I think you feel the same way.

People are born of different bloodlines: some bloodlines produce fighters; some don't.
Those that are born fighters can receive training to amplify their natural abilities.
For those that weren't born fighters, no amount of training will make them very effective -
because they lack the heart to stay in a fight and keep composure.

The trait of a fighter is 'gameness' - the same trait sought out by breeders of fighting dogs like pitbulls.

Other variables, that I'll call innate attributes are:

-strength
-speed
-reflexes
-body mass
-durability
-calm
-etc.

(These attributes might be possessed by anyone)

An acquired variable/attribute is training:

-grappling
-striking

In addition, we might assign values to each of these attributes, based on their value in relation to each other, and the fighter.

All these attributes increase the fighting ability, but without the fighter trait - or 'gameness',
they are useless, when a person lacking that trait is set up against someone that possesses it.

This is within reason of course: Obviously an incredible size disparity will not be overcome by any amount of ferocity.
Also, there are degrees of gameness, as there are degrees of it in pitbull terriers.

Fedor is a born fighter, with the additional advantage of all fighter attributes - both innate and acquired.

We might assume that, a slight majority of bloodlines produce fighters with some degree of frequency; most cultures have a history of warfare.
That trait is probably being bred out in the 1st world due to natural selection. (Today, earning money is more valuable than knocking people out with coconuts; and in fact, you'll probably end up in jail if you go around punching and killing people). So, I speculate that, a slight majority of people possess a degree of gameness; thus most people can be made fighters of some value. However, that fighter trait is slowing dying out with each generation - and especially in the 1st world.

This is in line with Neitschze's idea that each succession of empires was essentially the assertion of will of one vigorous people upon another formerly vigorous - but now effete race. The Völkerwanderung being the most obvious example of that.

[zimanu]

What a cool discussion that is!

I'll add to what you say, with which I think I agree with everything, that my feeling, as an anthropologist, is that warriors have always been the minority. To exemplify it in more general principles, I think intelligence is pretty widespread among humanity (I'm not talking about geniuses, but some intelligence in the character), that love is rarer and that will is the rarest... To invert the hierarchy, it takes a few good leaders, a bunch of good healers and teachers and the reste of the society have there own knowledge, specialties...

Of course, I'm not here to get into a scientific debate and I'm not getting into details nor trying to convince anyone, but it's my intuition that all cultures that I've studied fit into this natural hierarchy... Archeologically, leaders have always been warriors... But we live, like Freud's pupil, Reich, said, in the time of "little men", which corresponds to the transition phase being the start of a democratical process in which the common man takes control of the government, while before it was the strongest ones which controled... In my opinion, no need to be nostalgic for it is a good evolution and, one day, I'm personally sure of this natural law, natural leaders will be appreciated for what they are... But that implies that true warriors will be more and more of the mind and less and less of the physical kind... As predicted Staline, WWIII will be of psychic nature, technology will be surpassed by the human will, it is inevitable...

[James Phoenix]

Ya!

It might be possible to create a mathematical formula to rank fighters definitively, predict fight outcomes, etc.
However, assigning values to the various attributes of fighters is difficult considering the very subjective nature of the whole thing.

It is true that the warrior-elite were often a small minority - the Spartan dominance over the helots comes to mind.
The Celts were also believed by some to represent a warrior-elite rather than a widespread culture.
Also, there is the case of the Kievan Rus', Russian Boyars, etc...
The list goes on.

Based on that, we can say with some certainty that warriors did in fact constitute a minority in the past.
Whether that remains true today is largely dependant upon what constitutes a warrior in modern society.

May I ask what your ethnicity is? I'm guessing French-Canadian?

I infer from your last post that we probably share similar ideas about many things.
See, I think that, ironically, conflict between warrior-elites will ultimately bring about perfect communism -
through suppression of the ego. It's not economic communism, but a state of atonement with reality.
Essentially, I'm talking about warfare and technological advancement to the point that only one type exist;
thus eliminating racial or class distinction.

Warriors of the mind might be those with the will strong enough to assert their views on the 'mass mind' of the people,
thus bringing about this transition to a state of reduced ego and unity with the 'divine ground'.