Question for Bum, McWay or anyone else

[Straw Man]

Can a person who indentifies themself as a christian disagree with you on matters such as homosexuality, gay marriage, waterboarding, capital punishment etc... and still be a considered a christian by you?   By that I mean they are every bit as much a christian as you are.

[MCWAY]

Can a person who indentifies themself as a christian disagree with you on matters such as homosexuality, gay marriage, waterboarding, capital punishment etc... and still be a considered a christian by you?   By that I mean they are every bit as much a christian as you are.

HELLO!!!

How many times have I come on this board and mentioned issues about which my wife and I don't agree?

Yet, at no time have I ever stated that she's less than a Christian than I am.

We agree on some issues: homosexuality, gay "marriage".

We disagree on others: capital punishment, school vouchers, universal healthcare.

We vote for the same candidates: Bush - 2004

We vote for different candidates: 2000 - Bush (me), Gore 2000 (my wife); 2008 - McCain (me), Obama (my wife)

[Straw Man]

HELLO!!!

How many times have I come on this board and mentioned issues about which my wife and I don't agree?

Yet, at no time have I ever stated that she's less than a Christian than I am.

We agree on some issues: homosexuality, gay "marriage".

We disagree on others: capital punishment, school vouchers, universal healthcare.

We vote for the same candidates: Bush - 2004

We vote for different candidates: 2000 - Bush (me), Gore 2000 (my wife); 2008 - McCain (me), Obama (my wife)

OK - so you think Christians can have polar opposite views and still be Christian.  Is that correct?

[MCWAY]

OK - so you think Christians can have polar opposite views and still be Christian.  Is that correct?

I wouldn't say polar opposite views. My wife and I don't have those. Overall, we are quite simiar.

I'd say I'm more socially conservative than she is; but we're both socially conservative.

Now, that you mentioned it, I e-mailed a copy of the petition to get signatures for Florida's marriage amendment (Amendment 2) to my wife and asked her to mail it to her friends.

She did that and signed it herself but mentioned that some of our buddies weren't interested in signing the petition. It wasn't so much that they agree with gay "marriage"; but, they think that voting on such is "legislating morality", which they don't think is good.

Those are good friends of ours, who (at one time) went to the same church as we did but switched after we moved and because their kids were older.

[Straw Man]

I wouldn't say polar opposite views. My wife and I don't have those. Overall, we are quite simiar.

I'd say I'm more socially conservative than she is; but we're both socially conservative.

Now, that you mentioned it, I e-mailed a copy of the petition to get signatures for Florida's marriage amendment (Amendment 2) to my wife and asked her to mail it to her friends.

She did that and signed it herself but mentioned that some of our buddies weren't interested in signing the petition. It wasn't so much that they agree with gay "marriage"; but, they think that voting on such is "legislating morality", which they don't think is good.

Those are good friends of ours, who (at one time) went to the same church as we did but switched after we moved and because their kids were older.

so in your opinion one can be a christian and also be in favor of gay marriage or against waterboarding

[fitt@40]

Can a person who indentifies themself as a christian disagree with you on matters such as homosexuality, gay marriage, waterboarding, capital punishment etc... and still be a considered a christian by you?   By that I mean they are every bit as much a christian as you are.

Christians do not decide the criteria for being a Christian.  Christ provided Himself as an example of what a Christian should be and do.  Often times we read the Bible and look for clear-cut answers.  We want the Bible to a "1+1=2" kind of a book.  It is not always that simple.  All answers are there, but we must know how to receive them.  When we study the Word of God, we must pray for understanding and submit to God's Will.  God deals with the heart.  This is where the truth of a man lives.  Do you recall when an adulterous woman was going to be stoned to death (as the law required)?  Christ said, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." (John 8:7 )   There are those who will interpet this to mean that it is okay to do these things (homosexuality, etc) as long as your heart is with God.  One has to keep in mind that with the adulterous woman, Christ told her that he did not condemn her, but she should sin no more. (John 8:10-11)

[Straw Man]

Christians do not decide the criteria for being a Christian.  Christ provided Himself as an example of what a Christian should be and do.  Often times we read the Bible and look for clear-cut answers.  We want the Bible to a "1+1=2" kind of a book.  It is not always that simple.  All answers are there, but we must know how to receive them.  When we study the Word of God, we must pray for understanding and submit to God's Will.  God deals with the heart.  This is where the truth of a man lives.  Do you recall when an adulterous woman was going to be stoned to death (as the law required)?  Christ said, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." (John 8:7 )   There are those who will interpet this to mean that it is okay to do these things (homosexuality, etc) as long as your heart is with God.  One has to keep in mind that with the adulterous woman, Christ told her that he did not condemn her, but she should sin no more. (John 8:10-11)

couldn't I read that as don't judge other adults when it comes to their personal sexual relationships with other adults

[MCWAY]

couldn't I read that as don't judge other adults when it comes to their personal sexual relationships with other adults

Not really!! Judging from the context of the passage, Jesus knew that the Pharisees were trying to trip Him up and find an excuse to have Him arrested for blasphemy.

For starters, had they really been following the law, they would have had BOTH adultery-committing parties there, facing the death penalty.

But, as Fitt said, it's not that Jesus condone her activity. Neither He nor the woman denied that her sentence wasn't deserved. But, He had mercy on her and instructed her to "Go and sin no more".

[Straw Man]

Not really!! Judging from the context of the passage, Jesus knew that the Pharisees were trying to trip Him up and find an excuse to have Him arrested for blasphemy.

For starters, had they really been following the law, they would have had BOTH adultery-committing parties there, facing the death penalty.

But, as Fitt said, it's not that Jesus condone her activity. Neither He nor the woman denied that her sentence wasn't deserved. But, He had mercy on her and instructed her to "Go and sin no more".

it sounds more like Jesus is telling other humans not to judge each other on these matters.

that's my interpretation

[MCWAY]

it sounds more like Jesus is telling other humans not to judge each other on these matters.

that's my interpretation

If humans didn't judge each other on these matters, we'd have no social order whatsoever. This was all about the Pharisees, trying to embarass and trip up Jesus, not the pursuit of justice against someone for committing a heinous crime.


That would be like saying that cops shouldn't "judge" people who speed, just because a particular cop pulls someone over for speeding but lets them off with a warning, instead of giving them a ticket.

That's why Jesus' act was one of mercy. He stated clearly that she's has done wrong, hence His words to her to "Go and sin no more".

But, as Fitt said, some use that as an excuse to overlook sinful behavior.

[Dos Equis]

HELLO!!!

How many times have I come on this board and mentioned issues about which my wife and I don't agree?

Yet, at no time have I ever stated that she's less than a Christian than I am.

We agree on some issues: homosexuality, gay "marriage".

We disagree on others: capital punishment, school vouchers, universal healthcare.

We vote for the same candidates: Bush - 2004

We vote for different candidates: 2000 - Bush (me), Gore 2000 (my wife); 2008 - McCain (me), Obama (my wife)

Same here.  My wife and I split our ticket for the first time this election (she voted for Obama).  We agree on most things, but disagree on some. 

[Dos Equis]

If humans didn't judge each other on these matters, we'd have no social order whatsoever. This was all about the Pharisees, trying to embarass and trip up Jesus, not the pursuit of justice against someone for committing a heinous crime.


That would be like saying that cops shouldn't "judge" people who speed, just because a particular cop pulls someone over for speeding but lets them off with a warning, instead of giving them a ticket.

That's why Jesus' act was one of mercy. He stated clearly that she's has done wrong, hence His words to her to "Go and sin no more".

But, as Fitt said, some use that as an excuse to overlook sinful behavior.

Exactly.  Completely agree with all of this, especially the last sentence. 

[Straw Man]

If humans didn't judge each other on these matters, we'd have no social order whatsoever. This was all about the Pharisees, trying to embarass and trip up Jesus, not the pursuit of justice against someone for committing a heinous crime.


That would be like saying that cops shouldn't "judge" people who speed, just because a particular cop pulls someone over for speeding but lets them off with a warning, instead of giving them a ticket.

That's why Jesus' act was one of mercy. He stated clearly that she's has done wrong, hence His words to her to "Go and sin no more".

But, as Fitt said, some use that as an excuse to overlook sinful behavior.

well.... you have your interpretation and I have mine. 

I think it's clear that the story (and that's all it is) is about not judging others.  that's the message that I get. 

[Migs]

Can a person who indentifies themself as a christian disagree with you on matters such as homosexuality, gay marriage, waterboarding, capital punishment etc... and still be a considered a christian by you?   By that I mean they are every bit as much a christian as you are.

I wouldn't see why not.  After all it's the difference amongst christians that creates the different dogmas of christianity

[fitt@40]

well.... you have your interpretation and I have mine. 

I think it's clear that the story (and that's all it is) is about not judging others.  that's the message that I get. 

You are certainly entitled to your interpretation, and I respect that.  I would submit that you should consider that this is not about simply judging others, but rather who is sin-free.  Christ did not say not to judge the woman.  He didn't even say it was wrong to stone her.  His comand was the one who had no sin in their life should throw the first stone.

Again, I respect your right to interpret this, but I ask this of you.  Did you take your interpretation before God?  Did you only have God's Will in mind?  As Christians, we are obligated to say yes to both of these questions.  When I consider any question or issue concerning God, I always remind myself that this is not about me.  I have no agenda; God's Will is all that matters.

[Dos Equis]

it sounds more like Jesus is telling other humans not to judge each other on these matters.

that's my interpretation

Why are you reading, quoting, and interpreting something you don't believe in?

[Straw Man]

Why are you reading, quoting, and interpreting something you don't believe in?

why do you care?

I don't have to believe it to talk about it

[fitt@40]

why do you care?

I don't have to believe it to talk about it

If you do not believe that God is God, and all the He and His Son say is true,  how can you possibly understand what Christians believe. 
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him ( Hebrews 11:6 ).

There are many posters on this board who also do not believe.  Many who deny Christ's Truth, and mock those of us who believe.  As I have said in other threads, the Bible has told us that these things are going to happen.  I respect your right to not believe, but as a Christian and as someone who truly loves you, I must say to you that you are either deceived or a deceiver.  The Word of God speaks to this: For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist (2 John:1).

I am often asked why do I have patience and love for those who deny Christ and mock me.  I say to them that we are instructed to do so by Christ.  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust ( Matthew 5:44-45).  Also, I somewhat understand why many behave and think like they do.  For a long time I tried pulling away from God.  The things of this world (money, cars, homes, fame) can be extremely attractive.  I knew the Truth, but still fell victim.  One day I realized that though I had pursued many of these things (and was successful in many rights) I was still not a happy man.  I remember the day that I overheard someone ask how can Halle Berry be depressed.  The person went on to say that she has money, beauty, fame and a great body.  Hearing that opened my eyes to the fact that the pursuit and achievement of the world's things will not make a person happy.  It still took me some time to accept Christ into my life, but by the Grace of God, I came around.   I am now happy in all things.  I wish that I could convey to you just how true this really is.  That is not to say that I do not have problems.  I just delight in the Lord and ALWAYS things turn out good.  Sorry to get long-winded, but I just want to share.  May God Bless you.

[Dos Equis]

why do you care?

I don't have to believe it to talk about it

I don't care, but you're the one who created the thread and asked for my input.  You're also the person who believes it's pointless to debate religious issues:

I never debate religion and I've never post on the religion board (I've only looked at it once or twice)  

In my opinion it's pointless to debate with someone who holds a position without evidence or in contrary to evidence.

That's why I asked the question.  It sounds like you're just trying to find contradictions, etc.  Why else would you engage in "pointless" discussions?  (Rhetorical question.)  

[Straw Man]

I don't care, but you're the one who created the thread and asked for my input.  You're also the person who believes it's pointless to debate religious issues:


That's why I asked the question.  It sounds like you're just trying to find contradictions, etc.  Why else would you engage in "pointless" discussions?  (Rhetorical question.)  

I'm not debating you

I addressed a question to bum, mcway or ANYONE ELSE

I don't feel I'm debating anyone on this thread

[ToxicAvenger]

OK - so you think Christians can have polar opposite views and still be Christian.  Is that correct?

except the similar cant be true of muslims....oh golly no...