Drunken breast-feeding arrest touches off debate

[Hugo Chavez]

Perhaps you are right.  I donno.  But anyone who would get drunk and breast feed is mentally unfit to parent. 

Any amount of alcohol to a developing brain can be dangerous. 

To me unfit to be a parent is in need of help, not prison.  Save prison for the violent shit.  We don't know what this lady was going through.  Best option is to try to set her on the right path and 5 years behind bars won't do any of that.  So she gets out in 5 years and if she gets custody of her kid back, she'll probably be even worse.

I know, any alcohol for a baby is bad.  I was just commenting on your glass of wine for a baby comment with perspective of how much she would have to drink to do that.  I wasn't implying anything.

[Hugo Chavez]

And if you have a zero-tolerance policy... what kind of timing to use?

If a woman has a beer at 12 noon and breast feeds at 7 pm... does she get 5 years in prison?


If not, what kind of clock do you use?  6 hours?  5?  2?

it's easy to say idiots who drink belong in jail.  it's tougher to assign numbers/rubric to it.

no, you should be able to have one drink after breastfeeding but not before.  There are websites online with doctor comments on this.

[240 is Back]

This ain't rocket science.  Don't drink while breast feeding.  Hard to enforce because much of may take place in the home, but it's also difficult to enforce laws prohibiting putting alcohol in a baby's bottle when it's done at home too.

But when you do catch them, as in this case, how do you charge them?  What numbers?

if it was illegal and people knew about it, a lot more pissed off dads would call it in, I'm sure.

personally, i'd propose an escalating rate.  

BAC of .1, you can't do anything but call Children's services for an inspection.
BAC of .2, you can arrest and get probation and counseling.

.
.   etc, etc
.

BAC of .1 or more, you go to federal, pound-me-in-the-can prison.

[OzmO]

To me unfit to be a parent is in need of help, not prison.  Save prison for the violent shit.  We don't know what this lady was going through.  Best option is to try to set her on the right path and 5 years behind bars won't do any of that.  So she gets out in 5 years and if she gets custody of her kid back, she'll probably be even worse.

I know, any alcohol for a baby is bad.  I was just commenting on your glass of wine for a baby comment with perspective of how much she would have to drink to do that.  I wasn't implying anything.

I pretty much see what you are saying but the thing is, this degree of being "unfit" involves deliberately putting the child's life in danger and borders on assault/poison/attempted murder.  

[OzmO]

But when you do catch them, as in this case, how do you charge them?  What numbers?

if it was illegal and people knew about it, a lot more pissed off dads would call it in, I'm sure.

personally, i'd propose an escalating rate.  

BAC of .1, you can't do anything but call Children's services for an inspection.
BAC of .2, you can arrest and get probation and counseling.

.
.   etc, etc
.

BAC of .1 or more, you go to federal, pound-me-in-the-can prison.

I wonder how drunk she was. 

[Hugo Chavez]

But when you do catch them, as in this case, how do you charge them?  What numbers?

if it was illegal and people knew about it, a lot more pissed off dads would call it in, I'm sure.

personally, i'd propose an escalating rate.  

BAC of .1, you can't do anything but call Children's services for an inspection.
BAC of .2, you can arrest and get probation and counseling.

.
.   etc, etc
.

BAC of .1 or more, you go to federal, pound-me-in-the-can prison.

Fuck man, next they'll have the baby police to come around and check breastmilk....  We'll need a new federal enforcement agency... no no no thanks... This lady got busted, set her on the right path, make her realise her mistake and move on.  We don't need new laws over it.

[OzmO]

Fuck man, next they'll have the baby police to come around and check breastmilk....  We'll need a new federal enforcement agency... no no no thanks... This lady got busted, set her on the right path, make her realise her mistake and move on.  We don't need new laws over it.

Sounds like a pork barrel project. 

[Hugo Chavez]

I pretty much see what you are saying but the thing is, this degree of being "unfit" involves deliberately putting the child's life in danger and borders on assault/poison/attempted murder.  

yea but unfit?  Take a look around the country... That's a good portion of it.  Unfit parents everywhere.  I can't believe some of the shit I've seen.  Best course of action is to set the mother on the right path and if you think prison is that, you're out of your mind.

[240 is Back]

Fuck man, next they'll have the baby police to come around and check breastmilk....  We'll need a new federal enforcement agency... no no no thanks... This lady got busted, set her on the right path, make her realise her mistake and move on.  We don't need new laws over it.

I'm just saying, those cops just said "she's drunk" and she's looking at 5 years.

She might have had one beer and just been ain immature idiot.  or she may have been on beer #12.  We don't know, because no BAC was taken.

I like the idea of taking officer judgment out of the situation, and leaving it to numbers, which don't change if the cop has a bad day or is on a power trip.  

They should have numbers on file for this.  I'm surprised it hasn't come up before, with all the domestic disturbance calls in my old trailer park

[Dos Equis]

But when you do catch them, as in this case, how do you charge them?  What numbers?

if it was illegal and people knew about it, a lot more pissed off dads would call it in, I'm sure.

personally, i'd propose an escalating rate.  

BAC of .1, you can't do anything but call Children's services for an inspection.
BAC of .2, you can arrest and get probation and counseling.

.
.   etc, etc
.

BAC of .1 or more, you go to federal, pound-me-in-the-can prison.

Any amount period.  The penalty should the same penalty anyone would get for putting any amount of alcohol in a baby's bottle.  It's not that complicated.  No one is advocating house to house searches, but if the police encounter someone like this idiot, arrest and charge them. 

[OzmO]

yea but unfit?  Take a look around the country... That's a good portion of it.  Unfit parents everywhere.  I can't believe some of the shit I've seen.  Best course of action is to set the mother on the right path and if you think prison is that, you're out of your mind.

Well, see, I'm not really too concerned about the mother.  I more concerned about the baby.  The only reason she shouldn't go to prison is because of the possibility she can get on the right path and benefit the child.  The problem is, what she did is near assault or attempted murder depending on how much she drank.

And it is sad.  There are may unfit parents everywhere.  But not every unfit parent is breast feeding drunk and harming there child like that.

[Hugo Chavez]

I'm just saying, those cops just said "she's drunk" and she's looking at 5 years.

She might have had one beer and just been ain immature idiot.  or she may have been on beer #12.  We don't know, because no BAC was taken.

I like the idea of taking officer judgment out of the situation, and leaving it to numbers, which don't change if the cop has a bad day or is on a power trip.  

They should have numbers on file for this.  I'm surprised it hasn't come up before, with all the domestic disturbance calls in my old trailer park

yea, I agree,

Cops word isn't worth much IMO.  They look down on people so much, they always assume the worst.  She might have just mouthed off and he called her drunk and made a federal case out of it.  I don't doubt that possibility for a second.  But if she was drunk, she needs help in this case, not any prison time.

[240 is Back]

Any amount period.  The penalty should the same penalty anyone would get for putting any amount of alcohol in a baby's bottle.  It's not that complicated.  No one is advocating house to house searches, but if the police encounter someone like this idiot, arrest and charge them. 

okay.  So one sip of champagne at a New years eve party, followed by 2 hours of sleep then breast-feeding at 2 am, then having an angry ex call it in...

That woman should lose her kid, house, career, and freedom for 5 years?

Of course not.  This is why BAC levels would solve the problem.  1 sip of champagne isn't the same as 10 tequila shots, but your suggestion is that we treat them the same way.

[OzmO]

If they don't know how drunk she was then she'll not get 5 years that's for sure.

[Hugo Chavez]

Well, see, I'm not really too concerned about the mother.  I more concerned about the baby.  The only reason she shouldn't go to prison is because of the possibility she can get on the right path and benefit the child.  The problem is, what she did is near assault or attempted murder depending on how much she drank.

And it is sad.  There are may unfit parents everywhere.  But not every unfit parent is breast feeding drunk and harming there child like that.

That's what I was thinking the whole time with what I was saying.  I see the mother and baby's general welfare as somewhat connected.  A mother on the right path is a baby on the right path.  That goes without saying, or should.  So we have two choices... Send her away for her mistake=shit for the baby.  Get her help=better chance for the baby.

[Dos Equis]

okay.  So one sip of champagne at a New years eve party, followed by 2 hours of sleep then breast-feeding at 2 am, then having an angry ex call it in...

That woman should lose her kid, house, career, and freedom for 5 years?

Of course not.  This is why BAC levels would solve the problem.  1 sip of champagne isn't the same as 10 tequila shots, but your suggestion is that we treat them the same way.

I don't care about that bleeding heart crap.  We're talking about the healthy and safety of a newborn baby.  And yes, if a "mother" is reckless enough to drink while breastfeeding she should suffer whatever consequences the law calls for.  

[Hugo Chavez]

If they don't know how drunk she was then she'll not get 5 years that's for sure.

yea, this is all hypothetical.

[240 is Back]

I don't care about that bleeding heart crap.  We're talking about the healthy and safety of a newborn baby.  And yes, if a "mother" is reckless enough to drink while breastfeeding she should suffer whatever consequences the law calls for.  

The point here is that the law is very vague and there is no rubric for assigning punishment.

Some a-hole cop saying "yeah, she's drunk" means this woman loses 5 years with her child?
or, Some completely smashed woman gets off because nobody has any clue how drunk she was.

I like accountability and fairness.  Having a BAC list would mean any tiem there is suspicion, the cop can make the woman take a breathalizer and know for sure.  Any time you give some high school grad policeman who hates his job (or worse, hates people of another race) the power to take a parent from her child for 1825 days on his word alone - THAT is scary.

Use numbers.  They don't lie.  If she's wasted, she's losing that kid.  if she's had 2 sips and is just being an idiot, she won't.  Some cop with an axe to grind shouldn't be the sole determiner.

[OzmO]

yea, this is all hypothetical.

I think you are right.  Unless circumstances show otherwise, she doesn't deserve 5 years in prison.  But, 5-10 years probation, counseling, CPS visits etc...  Yes.  

[Hugo Chavez]

I don't care about that bleeding heart crap.  We're talking about the healthy and safety of a newborn baby.  And yes, if a "mother" is reckless enough to drink while breastfeeding she should suffer whatever consequences the law calls for.  

"If you choose to drink alcohol, drink it just after you nurse rather than just before."--American Academy of Pediatricians

[Dos Equis]

The point here is that the law is very vague and there is no rubric for assigning punishment.

Some a-hole cop saying "yeah, she's drunk" means this woman loses 5 years with her child?
or, Some completely smashed woman gets off because nobody has any clue how drunk she was.

I like accountability and fairness.  Having a BAC list would mean any tiem there is suspicion, the cop can make the woman take a breathalizer and know for sure.  Any time you give some high school grad policeman who hates his job (or worse, hates people of another race) the power to take a parent from her child for 1825 days on his word alone - THAT is scary.

Use numbers.  They don't lie.  If she's wasted, she's losing that kid.  if she's had 2 sips and is just being an idiot, she won't.  Some cop with an axe to grind shouldn't be the sole determiner.

What law is "very vague"?  I didn't see the text of any law in the story, unless I overlooked it (which is possible). 

[Dos Equis]

"If you choose to drink alcohol, drink it just after you nurse rather than just before."--American Academy of Pediatricians

Mothers shouldn't drink at all while breastfeeding IMO. 

[240 is Back]

What law is "very vague"?  I didn't see the text of any law in the story, unless I overlooked it (which is possible). 

The child neglect statute (or whatever the charge) in which she's facing 5 years.

We have the cop's word she was drunk.  that's it.  To me, that's not enough, because police do lie from time to time.  I'd much prefer the cop's word AND a blood alcohol test from the scene before sending that moron to prison.

[240 is Back]

Mothers shouldn't drink at all while breastfeeding IMO. 

I think we all agree there.  My wife cut out all meds, any alcohol, etc from the moment we started trying, until the month after breastfeeding ended.  I don't think she even used hot sauce or other things that would upset the rugrat.  We seem to all be good parents here, and I think we'd all shove that **** into a wall if we witnessed that shit happening.

I'm talking about police accountability and ability of some guy with a badge to end a family for 5 years.  Ya need better (with detailed rubric) laws in place to protect the babies and prevent abuse by LEO.

[Dos Equis]

The child neglect statute (or whatever the charge) in which she's facing 5 years.

We have the cop's word she was drunk.  that's it.  To me, that's not enough, because police do lie from time to time.  I'd much prefer the cop's word AND a blood alcohol test from the scene before sending that moron to prison.

Kind of hard to call it vague when you haven't actually read it, no?