Another thread got me thinking. Why the universe?

[mitchyboy]

Why did god create the universe with the billions of stars, quasars, galaxys and what not. I personaly dont belive in god, for the same reasons i dont belive in unicorns. But for the sake of arguing, lol, why.

[Joel_A]

Why did god create the universe with the billions of stars, quasars, galaxys and what not. I personaly dont belive in god, for the same reasons i dont belive in unicorns. But for the sake of arguing, lol, why.

The Architect told him to.

[kiwiol]

Why not?

[haider]

Why not?

hehe. Why not nothingness? 

Logically speaking there's probably no "purpose" to it that we can "understand". I think then you pass into the "spiritual realm".

[Necrosis]

Why not?

well if you agree with the bible it makes no sense. However, it fits perfectly with randomness and chaos.

[kiwiol]

hehe. Why not nothingness? 

Logically speaking there's probably no "purpose" to it that we can "understand". I think then you pass into the "spiritual realm".

Because you can't have a "nothing" without there being "something" in existence some time or the other. The absence of something is what we recognize as / equate to nothing, but the absence of everything subsumes / includes the nothing as well. Does that make sense or does it make me sound like Johnny Falcon after sniffing more petrol than Nasser has oil?

Anyway, so the something we have is the known universe we perceive. I was just saying why not it be that way to the question asking why it should be in such a way. "The metaphysically given is, was, will be and had to be."

well if you agree with the bible it makes no sense. However, it fits perfectly with randomness and chaos.

Nah, I'm not a christian (or of any other faith). I wasn't thinking of the Bible, which isn't all there is to the concept of God anyway.

[haider]

Because you can't have a "nothing" without there being "something" in existence some time or the other. The absence of something is what we recognize as / equate to nothing, but the absence of everything subsumes / includes the nothing as well. Does that make sense or does it make me sound like Johnny Falcon after sniffing more petrol than Nasser has oil?

LOL! something like that 

That sure is tough to get your head around. Let me ask another question: Before there was anything (before the big bang), was there not nothingness? If there isnt material existence, isn't that "nothing"? It's probably impossible to approach this in an abstract manner, ultimately physics needs to come in.

Anyway, so the something we have is the known universe we perceive. I was just saying why not it be that way to the question asking why it should be in such a way. "The metaphysically given is, was, will be and had to be."

That might be a question that asks about the nature of existence, but not of existence itself. The question of "why" can be taken so many steps backwards before there is no answer to the question but "it is the way it is". For example if u start with the question of why an apple falls towards the center of the earth, the answer is gravity. Why is their gravity? (I'm sure there's an answer, but I dont know) And if you can answer that it is for "X reason", then you shall be asked "Why X?" and so on so forth until there is no answer. It just is.

[Necrosis]

LOL! something like that 

That sure is tough to get your head around. Let me ask another question: Before there was anything (before the big bang), was there not nothingness? If there isnt material existence, isn't that "nothing"? It's probably impossible to approach this in an abstract manner, ultimately physics needs to come in.
That might be a question that asks about the nature of existence, but not of existence itself. The question of "why" can be taken so many steps backwards before there is no answer to the question but "it is the way it is". For example if u start with the question of why an apple falls towards the center of the earth, the answer is gravity. Why is their gravity? (I'm sure there's an answer, but I dont know) And if you can answer that it is for "X reason", then you shall be asked "Why X?" and so on so forth until there is no answer. It just is.

 

[Hustle Man]

Individuals with finite minds will never understand the infinite intelligence that created all this! You finite creature only need to bow down and ask for forgiveness because you have denied the infinite power that has created you thusly!

Questioning God is futile, because if he ever answered you in your ignorance you would be incapable of understanding it anyway.

The creator has revealed all that your finite intelligence can ever handle; when it comes to the universe and your existence in it.

You need only to worship God in spirit and truth. God has giving both general and special revelations to mankind in order that we might know God on our finite level of intelligence.

The Bible is clear about what we can know from God's revelation in nature. Below are a few verses that directly state this truth.

General Revelation:

Psalm 19:1-2 "The Heavens are telling of the glory of God; and the firmament is declaring the work of his hands."

Romans 1:20 "His invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

The Bible also demonstrates that creation and God's works show that he is a spirit and a person. He is the source of all life and being (Acts 17:24-30).

Internal general revelation is the voice of inner moral testimony which we call conscience. This testifies to our spiritual nature concerning our duty as creatures.

Romans 1:18-19 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them."

Romans 2:14-16 "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus."

Special Revelation
As powerful as General Revelation is, it doesn't communicate to lost humans their need for salvation and the means provided for their restoration by grace through a promised redeemer.

Something is seriously wrong with all humans since the fall of Adam into sin. They tend to deny or redefine the things their senses tell them concerning their Creator. They tend to disobey what their consciences tell them about their moral obligations to God. Man's problem in knowing God and in being faithful to his duties, is not due to any defect in General Revelation. Fallen man is in rebellion! He suppresses God's truth. This makes him destined to frustration in his attempt to know who he is and how he fits into God's world.

The spiritual corruption that is inherent in every human born by ordinary generation since the fall of mankind makes his understanding of spiritual things impossible. No one in that condition seeks to really know God as he reveals himself.

1 Corinthians 2:14 "a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."


I could go on but this should be enough for now!

[Necrosis]

Individuals with finite minds will never understand the infinite intelligence that created all this! You finite creature only need to bow down and ask for forgiveness because you have denied the infinite power that has created you thusly!

Questioning God is futile, because if he ever answered you in your ignorance you would be incapable of understanding it anyway.

The creator has revealed all that your finite intelligence can ever handle; when it comes to the universe and your existence in it.

You need only to worship God in spirit and truth. God has giving both general and special revelations to mankind in order that we might know God on our finite level of intelligence.

The Bible is clear about what we can know from God's revelation in nature. Below are a few verses that directly state this truth.

General Revelation:

Psalm 19:1-2 "The Heavens are telling of the glory of God; and the firmament is declaring the work of his hands."

Romans 1:20 "His invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

The Bible also demonstrates that creation and God's works show that he is a spirit and a person. He is the source of all life and being (Acts 17:24-30).

Internal general revelation is the voice of inner moral testimony which we call conscience. This testifies to our spiritual nature concerning our duty as creatures.

Romans 1:18-19 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them."

Romans 2:14-16 "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus."

Special Revelation
As powerful as General Revelation is, it doesn't communicate to lost humans their need for salvation and the means provided for their restoration by grace through a promised redeemer.

Something is seriously wrong with all humans since the fall of Adam into sin. They tend to deny or redefine the things their senses tell them concerning their Creator. They tend to disobey what their consciences tell them about their moral obligations to God. Man's problem in knowing God and in being faithful to his duties, is not due to any defect in General Revelation. Fallen man is in rebellion! He suppresses God's truth. This makes him destined to frustration in his attempt to know who he is and how he fits into God's world.

The spiritual corruption that is inherent in every human born by ordinary generation since the fall of mankind makes his understanding of spiritual things impossible. No one in that condition seeks to really know God as he reveals himself.

1 Corinthians 2:14 "a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."


I could go on but this should be enough for now!

if someone, something created this universe then he/she should be ashamed. Your realize the sun will explode and kill us all right? so he set it up so his creation will be eliminated forever, ya great design

[Government_Controlled]

if someone, something created this universe then he/she should be ashamed. Your realize the sun will explode and kill us all right? so he set it up so his creation will be eliminated forever, ya great design

Why couldn't God stop that from happening? He guarantees us that the earth is going to "remain forever". From all the documentaries that come on the tube, I can't see where one of those documentaries bash the universe. As a matter of fact, they talk about how wonderful and awesome that the universe really is.

I just can't see why anyone would consider it shame or that the Creator should be ashamed. The Creator didn't put us in this situation, man and the devil are credited for that. If Adam and Eve would not have sinned, the earth would be full of perfect people, including Adam and Eve. Again, I can't see how you can blame God for this. Man is constantly ruining the earth, is that God's fault? And again, the Bible makes it clear the earth isn't going anywhere forever.



GC/DEA_AGENT

[Necrosis]

Why couldn't God stop that from happening? He guarantees us that the earth is going to "remain forever". From all the documentaries that come on the tube, I can't see where one of those documentaries bash the universe. As a matter of fact, they talk about how wonderful and awesome that the universe really is.

I just can't see why anyone would consider it shame or that the Creator should be ashamed. The Creator didn't put us in this situation, man and the devil are credited for that. If Adam and Eve would not have sinned, the earth would be full of perfect people, including Adam and Eve. Again, I can't see how you can blame God for this. Man is constantly ruining the earth, is that God's fault? And again, the Bible makes it clear the earth isn't going anywhere forever.



GC/DEA_AGENT

so god knows the future created adam and eve knowing they would sin, basically tempting them when he could of had it so sin didnt exist. This is blamed on the devil who god created knowing that he would cause all these problems, yet he wont eliminate him. Add to this the fact that god has said the earth will not disappear, yet we know it will. Meanwhile, god knows that the sun will explode yet put us in this position.

the bible is wrong, the sun will supernova like every other star, also the universe will dissipate as it is rapidly expanding. The only way to explain away these inconsistencies is to deny reality and fact and accept fiction.

[Hustle Man]

if someone, something created this universe then he/she should be ashamed. Your realize the sun will explode and kill us all right? so he set it up so his creation will be eliminated forever, ya great design

You are enjoying it right? Besides there is nothing you can do about it, it is what it is and you don't have any say so whatsoever!

Take heed:
1 Corinthians 2:14 "a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

HM (The Messenger)

[Government_Controlled]

so god knows the future created adam and eve knowing they would sin, basically tempting them when he could of had it so sin didnt exist. This is blamed on the devil who god created knowing that he would cause all these problems, yet he wont eliminate him. Add to this the fact that god has said the earth will not disappear, yet we know it will. Meanwhile, god knows that the sun will explode yet put us in this position.

You make an excellent point! In my studies of the Bible, I haven't been able to find where it speaks about God "knowing" everything before it happens. However, I have read accounts where God did look ahead. There are also detailed prophesies that God pronounced and came true. So, what I'm I getting at? The Bible also teaches that God does not exercise His powers recklessly. There is clear evidence that He chose not to use His forsight at times. I mean, He could do that, right? Choose NOT to use His power and allow His creations to exercise free will without looking into their future? Also, the devil and Adam/Eve were allowed to exercise their free will. If God would have steeped in, the devil could have claimed that God didn't allow free choice. God is absolute in any actions,love,kindness, etc. when He exercises those qualities. Unlike man, God is perfect. So then, His judgements will always be perfect. There is noway He will let the devil throw a wrench into the wheel. He has taken steps to allow the devil and his followers to prove to all creatures that they don't need Him for salvation. And here we are, all of mankind is being given a chance to choose who they will serve. This choice, is just that, a choice. If God were to have planned all of this out in advance or knew it in advance, we could somewhat say that He is cruel. However, thats not the case, again the Bible does show that God  doesn't use His powers just for the sake of using them.

As far as the sun goes, God created it, therefore He can contain it when the time comes.

the sun will supernova like every other star, also the universe will dissipate as it is rapidly expanding. The only way to explain away these inconsistencies is to deny reality and fact and accept fiction.

Sure it could (I believe it's estimated to be around a billion or so years, maybe light years), however I believe what the Bible teaches based on evidence, not faith. My faith comes from the solid evidence. The Bible makes it clear that the earth will not be destroyed by anything. So no worries there. Peace!

[The Master]

Because you can't have a "nothing" without there being "something" in existence some time or the other. The absence of something is what we recognize as / equate to nothing, but the absence of everything subsumes / includes the nothing as well. Does that make sense or does it make me sound like Johnny Falcon after sniffing more petrol than Nasser has oil?

Anyway, so the something we have is the known universe we perceive. I was just saying why not it be that way to the question asking why it should be in such a way. "The metaphysically given is, was, will be and had to be."

Nah, I'm not a christian (or of any other faith). I wasn't thinking of the Bible, which isn't all there is to the concept of God anyway.

Perhaps the humanoid cognitive apparatus = not suited for proper comprehension of reality.

[Government_Controlled]

Perhaps the humanoid cognitive apparatus = not suited for proper comprehension of reality.

I call it imperfection! *LOL*




GC/DEA_AGENT

[The Master]

I call it imperfection! *LOL*




GC/DEA_AGENT

MBZZZZZZZZZZ

[Necrosis]

You make an excellent point! In my studies of the Bible, I haven't been able to find where it speaks about God "knowing" everything before it happens. However, I have read accounts where God did look ahead. There are also detailed prophesies that God pronounced and came true. So, what I'm I getting at? The Bible also teaches that God does not exercise His powers recklessly. There is clear evidence that He chose not to use His forsight at times. I mean, He could do that, right? Choose NOT to use His power and allow His creations to exercise free will without looking into their future? Also, the devil and Adam/Eve were allowed to exercise their free will. If God would have steeped in, the devil could have claimed that God didn't allow free choice. God is absolute in any actions,love,kindness, etc. when He exercises those qualities. Unlike man, God is perfect. So then, His judgements will always be perfect. There is noway He will let the devil throw a wrench into the wheel. He has taken steps to allow the devil and his followers to prove to all creatures that they don't need Him for salvation. And here we are, all of mankind is being given a chance to choose who they will serve. This choice, is just that, a choice. If God were to have planned all of this out in advance or knew it in advance, we could somewhat say that He is cruel. However, thats not the case, again the Bible does show that God  doesn't use His powers just for the sake of using them.

As far as the sun goes, God created it, therefore He can contain it when the time comes.

Sure it could (I believe it's estimated to be around a billion or so years, maybe light years), however I believe what the Bible teaches based on evidence, not faith. My faith comes from the solid evidence. The Bible makes it clear that the earth will not be destroyed by anything. So no worries there. Peace!

"As far as the sun goes, God created it, therefore He can contain it when the time comes."

oh ok, didnt know that thanks. Makes sense for god not to create supernovas in the first place but if he is going to fix his mistakes later im cool with that.

[Joel_A]

I wonder if Christians think black holes are god's erasers.

[Government_Controlled]

"As far as the sun goes, God created it, therefore He can contain it when the time comes."

Makes sense for god not to create supernovas in the first place but if he is going to fix his mistakes later im cool with that.

I guess you can perceive my response to this *LOL*. You know that I'm not going to agree that God made a mistake. Lets use an example here on earth rather than space. As far as I can tell, we don't know much about the systems in space, such as supernova's, blackholes, etc. However, take for instance lighting. There is still on going research on this phenomenon, yet there is also plenty of evidence to show that lighting is needed for our survival. But wait, lighting kills people every year, did God do this? Or perhaps He created lighting in error? No, lighting serves a purpose for human survival. Just because people get struck by it, doesn't mean God did it or it was a mistake on His part for creating it. I tell you this tho, figure out a way to stop lighting, you then exterminate life as we know it. With your intellect, I'm sure you are familiar with what lighting provides to humans/life. Do you think lighting is a mistake by God because of the deaths each year?

Same scenario with the sun. It's necessary for our survival. We also have to be at the right orbit, speed, tilt, etc. for our ideal conditions on this planet. How can that be a mistake?. It's estimated the sun will SN around a billion or so years/light years, I can't remember the numbers, but it was astronomical. So, when that day comes, I'm sure God has a plan to provide deliverance.

With us not completely understanding all of what is perceived, the systems within systems, etc., it's hard to give you an exact reason for God creating what isn't fully understood. All we can go by is what we do know. God has provided everything needed for us to gain salvation and these things we are in the know about, show decisively design/intellect.

Take the Jews back before Christ came.They had many miracles performed before their eyes. Yet, they still came up with excuses not to acknowledge their Creator. So, I have found this to be true in modern times as well. People seem to look for excuses not to believe in their Creator. It wouldn't matter if God popped right before them, they would still deny Him.

Anyway, I appreciate you discussing this civilly. Peace !



GC_DEA_AGENT

[Government_Controlled]

I wonder if Christians think black holes are god's erasers.

If we don't know the correct answer, would that mean we (Christains) should renounce our faith?



GC/DEA_AGENT

[haider]

[mitchyboy]

And here come the fundis. Love it.

[mitchyboy]

This earth was not created for us. If you believe and insist it was, you need to go back to school, and slap your teacher.

[big L dawg]